← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
Hey, guys. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with managing editor Sam Stein. We have rolling coverage here of everything going on in Los Angeles, and we've had people, you know, much more legally astute than me and much more wise than me and Bill Kristol talking about all the various complications with that kerfuffle. So I wanted to do a little politics with Sam Stein and focus in on the response from the California governor, Gavin Newsom, who has been to my taste. Kind of unleashed Gavin here in the last 24 hours, going after the administration. Also some pretty tough words from some of the more violent elements of the protests. I want to play a couple of clips and get your reaction. But before that, do you have any, any top line thoughts on how Gavin's been handling, you know, this confrontation with the White House?
- [00:51]
Sam Stein
I have two thoughts. One is it's a difficult situation to, to be in, but I think some of this is a little bit more than just what's happening with respect to the ICE raids. This has been building up for a while, so I'll get into that in a little bit. But two is don't ever downplay your legal capacity and your ability.
- [01:11]
Tim Miller
Thank you, Sam. I appreciate that. And let me tell you, the more time I spend around lawyers, the more time I realize most of them are faking it till they make it, too. And I'm pretty much on the same turf, so I appreciate that.
- [01:22]
Sam Stein
Just throw out some fancy Latin terms, promissory, estoppel, and you sound like you.
- [01:26]
Tim Miller
And I turn two years of Latin. Shout out, Jim Roderick King. Okay, I wanna play two clips for you of Gavin going after the White House, and then we'll talk about how he's addressing the protest, too. So the first clip, Tom Homan, I guess, suggested that he might be arrestable because of his behavior. Unclear exactly what that was.
- [01:47]
Sam Stein
Will the Trump administration take action against these public officials who are threatening ICE agents with resistance? Absolutely. I think Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice are looking at that.
- [01:57]
Tim Miller
And here is Newsom's response to Homer.
- [02:00]
Gavin Newsom
Has been here 10 years. The fear, the horror, the hell is this guy come after me, arrest me? Let's just get it over with, tough guy. You know, I don't give a damn, but I care about my community. I care about this community. The hell are they doing? These guys need to grow up, they need to stop, and we need to push back. And I'm sorry to be so clear, but that kind of bloviating is exhausting. So, Tom, arrest me. Let's go.
- [02:28]
Tim Miller
You can kind of see the blood running through his veins there. I like that. I don't know about the apology for being so clear, but besides that, you know, that's just a figure skidding judge note. But this is, I do think that a lot of folks out there, myself included, want this from Democrats and it's been missing from some 100%.
- [02:47]
Sam Stein
Like when you watch that, you're like finally like some passion about like this whole situation. And honestly I think the frame is the right one, which is like, I can take it, I'm a governor, like, I'll be fine. I have wealth. Yeah, arrest me. Like, go for it, like, but take me and, and leave them alone. I think that's a really powerful message. Now again, I mean this is, I guess I'll just get into it. Like California's been on the, the receiving end of all this stuff. So it started with the fires in the Palisades. They have not put out federal disaster relief for that. Then Trump comes in and he's like, oh look, I, I unleashed this river flow down to LA and quelled the fires and he almost flooded a bunch of communities if not for some intervention at the end. I mean, that's ridiculous. Now they're gonna threatening to withhold all federal dollars to the state. And then when Newsom responds by saying, if you're going to do that, like we're not going to pay federal taxes, like what the hell? We're, we're. And then Scott Bessense like, oh, you'll be arrested for tax evasion, which may be true, but like they're just picking on the guy, they're picking on the state. You have people like Stephen Miller out there being like, California is a hell hole, which it's not. I mean, come on, this is ridiculous. And so I think at certain point in time, if you're new to him, you're like, you know what this, like let's get on with it. Because appeasing this person, trying to work with this person. And in the MSNBC interview, he did say he had a 20 minute talk with Trump, a phone conversation over the last couple days with Trump. Clearly that's not working, right?
- [04:15]
Tim Miller
So it's says he was lied to during the call. You know, he just bluntly says he was lied to during the call. You know, I think that's right. Look, I didn't make sense to me, maybe there was a rationale. After Trump won, a lot of Democrats were kind of on their back heels. They're thinking, okay, we must have missed something. You Know, I know a lot of Democrats out there among the elected class and voters who, like, didn't really were surprised, like, didn't. Like he won the popular vote, didn't see it coming. Like, we might need to totally change how we deal with him and how we deal with his voters and stuff. And so, you know, I always felt that was a wrong instinct, but it was rational. I understood it, you know. But we're getting to this point where Gavin now, six months in, after that whole history you talked about of what we're seeing in California and his dealings with them, and it's like, these guys are only going to respond to aggressive pushback and to strength, not dealing with them.
- [05:07]
Sam Stein
And I think every case is unique, but time and again, what you see is institutions that acquiesce, turn around, and then they're targeted again. Like, look at Columbia University. It's not obviously the same thing, but they did a huge amount of internal restructuring to make sure that they weren't on Trump's bad side. They were at risk of $400 million in federal fundings being pulled. Just last week, the Department of Education says, oh, you might be, you know, might have to pull your accreditation. It's like, what was the point of acquiescing? Now, there are cases where it does work, but even then, it's sort of iffy. Like, Gretchen Whitmer is another good example. Michigan's much different than California. Trump cares about Michigan much more than California. He realizes it's a state he can't really afford to lose, but whatever. So she goes in there and she makes nice with him. She gets some benefits from him in terms of this base that is in Michigan. But then the other day, he's asked about, would you pardon the people who would have potentially assassinated the governor? He's like, I'm looking into it. It's like, what the. So, you know, I just think time we see it over and over and over again, and you, if you're governor, you have to make these difficult calculations. I get it, it's hard. But I think for Newsom, at this point, it's like, you came into our city, you provoke this stuff by going at, you know, people in Home Depot trying to, like, go about and do their jobs, they naturally are going to respond. They're not just going to roll over and take. I mean, that's what the Journal, the Wall Street Journal said. Yeah, what did you expect? And now you're going to make it worse. So I think he's just fed up.
- [06:34]
Tim Miller
With this one more Clip of him going after the administration this time, talking about Pete Hegseth, who, you know, obviously was saying that we've got 500 Marines ready to be on call to go into LA. Let's listen to Gavin talking to Brian Tyler Cohen about that.
- [06:47]
Sam Stein
Do you have any confidence that Pete.
- [06:49]
Tim Miller
Hegseth will be as principled as Mark Esper was? Just a joke.
- [06:53]
Gavin Newsom
He's a joke. Everybody knows it. So in over his head. What an embarrassment. That's this guy's weakness masquerading as strength. I don't even know he masquerades as strength. I mean, serious moment. I mean, this Hooman guy, these guys, it's just. It's the band of misfits. Yeah, it's. I mean, it really is. This is serious. The people's lives are at stake. Reputation of this country is at stake. Great American cities and states. It's not just. This is not. This is a preview for things to come. This isn't about LA per se. It's about us today. It's about you. Everyone watching tomorrow, I promise you. I mean, this guy's unhinged. Donald Trump is unhinged right now. And this is just another proof point of that.
- [07:36]
Sam Stein
Did he say Hooman?
- [07:37]
Tim Miller
Hooman. I like that. Intentionally mispronouncing the names is good. I think I had Rahm, he was pronouncing him Nutlik, Elon Musk. Again, I don't really have much word out for what we said to the previous clip. It's just. It's just a breath of fresh air. It's like, this is the fight. He should take on this fight, and he needs to. And it's correct for him to do this.
- [07:58]
Sam Stein
The only thing I would add, and this is not in any way, shape or form an insult or disrespect to Brian, who I think does a really good show and obviously has a big audience. But I do think there's a little bit of preaching to the choir element here. And I think Newsom is very good, in fact, at. We've seen it at going into like, you know, the lion's den, in this case, usually Fox News. But I think there is some value to that because there's clearly two very disparate conversations happening right now. And you could just see it, like some people who were just like, California is a hellhole. That's like, you know, the cities are ablaze. And it's like people in California and elsewhere, like, actually like 99% of the city just like, you know, went and got their avocado toast and went about their business. And, like, you're way overstating things. So I just think we need to pierce these bubbles a little bit more.
- [08:46]
Tim Miller
I agree with that, though. I think that BTC's question about the Esper, it is. It's a key point. You know, it's preaching the choir, but it's a key point. The gap between Esper and Hegseth.
- [08:56]
Sam Stein
It's the key point. Esper. I hate to remind people this, Esper wrote about the fact that Trump asked him about shooting protesters during the Black Lives Matter protests outside the White House. I can't imagine Pete Hegseth being like, actually, Mr. President, that'd be a step too far. I mean, could you.
- [09:13]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, of course not. The other key point here, it's something I hadn't realized because I make sense once I was reminded of it. You just don't kind of think about it in these terms because we haven't had to think about it in these terms before Donald Trump. But the last time the feds sent in a National Guard over for the opposition of the state's governor was Selma, Alabama.
- [09:32]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [09:33]
Tim Miller
And so. And it's a big fucking deal. And, like, that seems like an arcane point a little bit, but it's a big deal that they would do it over Newsom's head.
- [09:40]
Sam Stein
Right.
- [09:41]
Tim Miller
And I think it's another reason why his rage is particularly called for here.
- [09:46]
Sam Stein
So I've been thinking about this. It's not a firm conviction of mine, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that this does backfire a little bit on Trump if it goes to a place where it could go. I don't think people necessarily are all that comfortable with the specter of the US Military, or in this case, the National Guard firing canisters on fellow citizens or arresting fellow citizens or beating up fellow citizens. Yes, of course, optically and politically, I think right now there's probably advantages for Trump in. You get these images of dudes in motorcycles with Mexican flags and there's fires everywhere and way mos are and all that shit in the masks and. Yeah, that's not great. No one's going to argue that that's great. But I do think there is a real obvious element where this could end up in overreach, which brings me to back to the Democrats. And I think it's great that Nome's out there making this point and doing his thing, but, like, the. The party's not in a great spot right now, honestly. And it's becoming very apparent in these moments in that you have leadership that's kind of torn about how much to lean in on this stuff, and still a little bit timid about this stuff. You look at Chuck Schumer's statement and it's all like, oh, this is a distraction. Don't get baited into it. And maybe that's true, but, like, the party needs to be unified in terms of what it's saying with respect to these things. And over the weekend, as all this was transpiring and Newsom is fighting for his life and all that stuff, like, the DNC is embroiled in the pettiest of bullshit, like, controversies where, you know, the leaked audio from the chair, who's worried about being undermined by David Hogg, and everyone's accusing David Hogg of leaking text messages. And I know people think this is a distraction in a sideshow. Maybe it is. But, I mean, my God, it's like a functioning DNC would be kind of helpful right now, I think. Yeah, just maybe a little bit.
- [11:43]
Tim Miller
Certainly. This is me and Iglesias an argument about this last week, and this is like one of my firmest convictions that goes against what sort of the conventional wisdom is on what Democrats should do. The distraction. It's not correct that Trump is doing this stuff as a distraction from this other thing. Like the corruption of Trump and making money and the passing the big beautiful bill is the real story. And he's doing the. He's going after protesters in the street to distract people from this other story. Like, the distraction is the issue with Trump. This is the core. The core issue with Trump. And he is going to inflame people because it's what he cares about and it's what people are going to care about. Okay? And so, like, this idea that you can Jedi mind trick the public into not caring about Donald Trump's provocations. If only you go on Meet the Press and pivot back to the Medicaid cuts. It's just wrong. It's just wrong. Like, you can say Medicaid cuts as much as you want, and they should talk about that. And that is not going to change the fact that at a dinner table, you know, in any city across the country, people are going to be more likely to talk about the protests and the National Guard and all that stuff. And so you have to have a clear message that addresses that issue. You can't just be like, oh, and I will pivot back now. Like, it doesn't work. It works on talk shows. But it doesn't work with people.
- [13:12]
Sam Stein
Yeah, no shit. It's like, well, I'm surprised Iglesias took the other side of that. But, I mean, I guess the other.
- [13:19]
Tim Miller
Side of that is what most people, most Democrats think.
- [13:21]
Sam Stein
It seems crazy to me. I mean, I think there are probably some cases where he does try to distract. Like, but those. Those are so obvious. So, like, the other week, it was after the Elon fight, I believe, but he was like, oh, I'm gonna throw out like, three executive orders tonight. One of which is like, we're gonna study Biden's auto pen. It's like that one. That one seems pretty manufactured. But. But immigration is, like, not a distraction for this, man. It's. It's the prize. Like, this is like one this. And tariffs are probably, like, the things he cares about the most. And. And sure, like, Medicaid cuts are probably more fertile ground for Democrats. And have fun. Go at it. Do both. You can't avoid these types of debates, nor should you. Like, the whole point of getting to elected office is to fight for certain principles. Right? I mean, and if you can't get up for the idea that the military is going to be sent into the second biggest city of our country, used against fellow citizens as part of a highly aggressive immigration deportation regime that is now targeting people who have been in the community and done nothing wrong for decades and going after a huge American business in Home Depot, just lining up and trying to raid these. These people going there to do their work. I mean, if you can't get up for that, then, like, you know, get out. Honestly, just get out. Do give it to someone else. I'm sure people will be willing to handle both Medicaid and the use of military on a fellow American citizens at the same time. It is possible. Yeah, it's possible.
- [14:50]
Tim Miller
Last topic. And again, to shout Newsom. Who? Anybody who's watched the channel know for a while I've got a lot of complaints about Newsom over various. Over the years. And so this is not an yes, Queen Gavin Newsom account, but I think he handled this challenge quite well. Right. Of, like, how do.
- [15:05]
Sam Stein
Well, let's see, man.
- [15:06]
Tim Miller
No, no. So I just want to play this. I just mean. I just mean in this clip, I'm about to play, like, a lot of the things that. A lot of the reasons why the Democrats shy away from this is because they don't exactly know what to say about the rioting and the protesting, and they maybe they sometimes lean too far the wrong way. They don't know how to handle being both against Trump's overreach and sending a clear message about public order. Here's how Newsom handled it.
- [15:30]
Gavin Newsom
But look, you made a point a moment ago. These images are unacceptable. These kids on the car, the folks that are taking advantage of this, these aren't peaceful protesters. A lot of these folks, a lot of great people out there doing the right thing. But you get these church and groups coming in, sort of these anarchists that are in there to create real problems, and they're just playing right into Donald Trump's hand, and they need to be called out, they need to be arrested. It is wrong to destroy other people's property, and it is wrong to create the conditions that only exacerbate this. But Donald Trump, at the end of the day, is the sponsor of these conditions.
- [16:04]
Tim Miller
That's really good.
- [16:05]
Sam Stein
I mean, that's. What else are you going to say? You can't not condemn the people who are trying to take it.
- [16:10]
Tim Miller
Well, you can not. I mean, I just, again, I don't cut. The former Kamala Harris put out a statement that she didn't do that, where she.
- [16:17]
Sam Stein
Fair enough.
- [16:18]
Tim Miller
And I haven't gone through every Democratic statement, but I think that there are a lot of Democrats that struggle with that balance, and I think you just nailed it.
- [16:24]
Sam Stein
I think that's fine. I think that, yeah, you're right. You're right. You should. And. But I think more Democrats should talk like that. I mean, it's very easy to say this shit's wrong when you're burning cars and looting stores and, you know, throwing rocks at federal officials. Like, don't do that. But I think the point is valid, which is like, you're playing into Trump's hands. And secondarily, like, if Trump was interested in calming the situation, he would be doing the opposite of what he's doing. He's interested in flaming the situation. I think that's. Yeah. I would like to some people on the right to kind of grapple with that a little bit more. I know I'm expecting a lot, but, like, do they actually believe that he's interested in Comet? Do they actually believe that he's interested in calming the situation and that this is the way to do it?
- [17:04]
Tim Miller
And a good litmus test for that question. Something I was thinking about just a minute ago, before I was going to go on TV was like a hypothetical, which is when they saw the cars on fire, when Donald Trump, J.D. vance, Stephen Miller, Tom Homan, Pete Hegseth saw the cars on fire. Do you think that they were happy about it? Or do you think that they were upset and they thought, this is bad, we need to take care of it? Or do you think they're like, thank God, thrilled?
- [17:27]
Sam Stein
They were thrilled.
- [17:28]
Tim Miller
They were thrilled. Of course, that tells you all you need to know. All right, Sam Stein, we'll be back. Much to cover on this stuff.