Ben Shapiro Nuked His Own Allies at TPUSA

Summary

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Bulwark Takes — “Ben Shapiro Nuked His Own Allies at TPUSA”

Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Sam Stein, with guest Will Sommer (False Flag newsletter)
Summary by Bulwark Takes Podcast Summarizer

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Turning Point USA’s AMFest conference, where conservative commentator Ben Shapiro delivered a dramatic, confrontational speech denouncing Nick Fuentes, Candace Owens, and even other right-wing media faces like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly. Sam Stein and Will Sommer break down the speech’s significance, the right’s ongoing infighting over the roles of white nationalists and conspiracy theorists, and what it means for the future of the conservative movement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Ben Shapiro's Speech Was Remarkable

• Setting & Context: At AMFest (Turning Point USA's flagship conference) in Phoenix. The conference is emotionally charged, being the first since founder Charlie Kirk’s assassination; Kirk's widow Erica is central at the event.
• Divided Audience: Shapiro’s call for rejecting Fuentes and Owens sparked intense reactions—some cheered, some booed, highlighting a significant division.
  • “It seemed like half the audience was jeering and half the audience was, you know, hollering in approval.” — Sam Stein [01:44]

2. The Internal Right-Wing “Civil War”

• Fuentes & Anti-Semitism: Will Sommer describes the conservative movement as facing a civil war over whether white nationalists and anti-Semites like Nick Fuentes should be allowed a role in the party.
  • “...the conservative movement right now is having a sort of civil war...what role white nationalists and anti-Semites like Nick Fuentes should have in the party...” — Will Sommer [02:12]
• Owens & Conspiracy Theories: Owens has promoted conspiracy theories suggesting Charlie Kirk’s murder involved TPUSA staff, further dividing the community.

3. Shapiro Calls Out His “Friends”

• Public Accountability Over Private Loyalty: Shapiro blasts conservative figures for refusing to speak out against Owens due to personal relationships.
  • “Even if it were true that other public figures were our best friends, our very best friends, that does not relieve us of our duty to speak out of principle and not to cover up evil...” — Ben Shapiro [05:06]
  • Targets:
    • Tucker Carlson: For echoing Owens’ lines of questioning
    • Megyn Kelly: For trying to stay neutral and “backchannel” instead of condemning conspiracy theories

4. The Megyn Kelly Factor

• Kelly is critiqued for hesitating to condemn Owens, trying to act as a mediator, and appearing intimidated by Owens' following.
  • “She was seen as sort of allowing Candace Owens to pillage Charlie Kirk's legacy, terrorize his family and friends with her conspiracy theories.” — Will Sommer [07:14]

5. Owens’ Strategy & Audience Reaction

• Candace Owens’ Tactics: When criticized, Owens claims it’s proof her critic is complicit, continuing to fuel conspiracies with no evidence.
  • “Any attack on her becomes evidence that you are complicit in a brutal murder.” — Sam Stein [13:50]
• Pro-Fuentes Energy: Surprising segment of the crowd supports hearing from Fuentes (and even Owens), despite their attacks on the organization itself, reflecting the movement's ongoing radicalization.

6. Leadership Vacuum at TPUSA

• There’s no leader with enough charisma to keep TPUSA unified or control its trajectory after Kirk’s death.
  • “They don't have someone with this kind of charisma that it takes to survive in right wing media and to sort of... control the trends.” — Will Sommer [09:37]

7. Hypocrisy & Platforming

• Shapiro’s Contradictions: Stein points out Shapiro himself helped build up Owens’ platform and has excused problematic figures; the “clean hands” claim is shaky.
  • “In a speech that went after people for platforming bad actors. Ben Shapiro is also responsible for platforming bad actors… he helped elevate Candace…” — Sam Stein [10:00]
  • “[Shapiro’s] hands are clean is ridiculous.” — Will Sommer [12:05]

8. Tucker Carlson’s Riposte

• Carlson disputes the whole debate, mocking calls for deplatforming as “leftist” and downplaying the risk posed by Fuentes and Owens.
  • “To hear calls for, like, de-platforming and denouncing people at a Charlie Kirk event. I'm like, what?” — Tucker Carlson [15:00]
• Weaponizing "Cancel Culture": Sommer notes how far-right figures use anti-cancel culture rhetoric as a shield for extremism.

9. The Conservative “Chinese Finger Trap”

• No Way to Win: Pushing back on extremists is framed as proof of conspiracy or as "being the left."
  • “If you dare push back at Candace, it becomes used as evidence that you're part of the conspiracy. If you call for people to not platform people like Candace or Nick Fuentes, you become opposed to free speech. And so there's nothing you can actually do to win these arguments.” — Sam Stein [15:50]

10. The Future: More Splits or Reunification?

• It’s not yet a full break, but lines are being drawn.
• Possible emergence of rival organizations or further radicalization signaled by young attendees’ “griper-themed” questions (e.g., USS Liberty).
  • “You might see, for example, scuffles at America Fest. Oh wait, we're already getting that.” — Will Sommer [20:15]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the stakes of Shapiro’s speech:
  “It was kind of like a family meeting where there's been a lot of, you know, text messages flying back and forth and then you have Thanksgiving dinner and then it's time to, okay, let's hash this out. And I mean they, I mean, Ben Shapiro really tore into a lot of these people.” — Will Sommer [04:03]

• On Megyn Kelly’s reaction:
  “Ben Shapiro and Barry Weiss in a joint attack on yours truly… without a damn clue what has been going on behind the scenes… I'm embarrassed for them.” — Quoting Megyn Kelly’s tweet [12:53]

• On Candace Owens’ logic:
  “It’s beyond obvious that Ben is tremendously fearful about something related to this assassination…” — Quoting Candace Owens’ tweet [13:26]

• On the challenge of confronting extremism:
  “It’s a Chinese finger trap. The more you pull out, the harder it gets to pull.” — Sam Stein [15:50]

• On the lack of charismatic leadership post-Kirk:
  “Turning Point is sort of wide open for the taking right now.” — Will Sommer [12:40]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:44] — Audience reactions at Shapiro's speech
• [02:12] — Sommer on the conservative “civil war”
• [05:06] — Shapiro direct quote rebuking Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly (audio clip)
• [07:14] — Sommer on Megyn Kelly’s role
• [09:37] — Discussion on leadership vacuum at TPUSA
• [10:00] — Stein on Shapiro’s own history of platforming
• [12:53] — Reading Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens’ tweets
• [15:00] — Tucker Carlson mocks deplatforming and cancel culture (audio clip)
• [15:50] — Stein on the “Chinese finger trap” of arguing with extremists
• [16:56] — Tucker reframes “Nazi” as new “racist” epithet
• [18:58] — Audience Q&A reveals groiper sentiments rising
• [20:15] — Sommer discusses emerging splits and potential brawls

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Conclusion

The episode provides a lucid account of the growing rift within the right, exposed by Shapiro's unusually direct confrontation at TPUSA’s most significant annual event. The Bulwark’s analysis is laced with dark humor and clear exasperation at a movement unable or unwilling to root out racist and conspiratorial actors. The big question left: Is this the moment the conservative coalition breaks, or do the extremists win by simply refusing to be exiled and turning every attempt at accountability into a new front in the endless “cancel culture” war?

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hey everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing out at the book, joined by Will Summer, author of False Flag newsletter. You know the drill. Subscribe to that subscribe to this. It's a Bulwark takes. I was watching this last night, the TPUSA Festival AM Fest out in where's it? Phoenix. And there's a pretty remarkable moment. I thought it was like a big deal. Not everyone on staff agreed, but we'll put that to the side for now. Ben Shapiro, speaking to the audience, gave this really kind of impassioned plea for the members there to more or less reject Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens to recommit themselves to the truth. I thought him having to say that was kind of remarkable, but it really felt like kind of, I don't know, I got like anxious watching it because it seemed like half the audience was jeering and half the audience was, you know, hollering and approval. And then we just sort of waited to see what the response would be. But I guess, Will, because you follow this stuff so much more closely than basically anyone on Earth, I don't know, can you, like, am I over reading it? Can you just sort of set it up? Like, how big a deal this actually was?

[C]

No, I think it was a remarkable night. I mean, the conservative movement Right now is having a sort of civil war, you know, and it's. It's sort of. We can maybe break it down on two. Two angles. One is what role white nationalists and anti Semites Nick Fuentes should have in the party, prompted by Tucker Carlson kind of inviting him in. And the other is Candace Owens, who's also an anti Semite, but specifically her conspiracy theories about the murder of Charlie Kirk. So this conference is a celebration of Charlie Kirk and sort of in his widow, Erica Kirk is really at the center of it. And Ben Shapiro gets up there, and he starts calling out specific people like Tucker Carlson or Megyn Kelly, who he feels are basically letting all of these. These negative elements, these demons into the party.

[B]

Yeah, but I guess even just like the idea, like, they're having a debate over what role anti Semites and white nationalists should have in the party. I mean, like, just step back for a second. What do we. Why is this a. Why is this a debate?

[C]

It's crazy. And, you know, it was striking to me. I mean, Charlie Kirk, he was Nick Fuente's arch enemy. I mean, he did so much, he would kick him out when he showed up to Turning Point USA conferences. If anyone in Turning Point USA was affiliated with Nick Fuentes, even in very minor ways, they would be kicked out of the group. And so suddenly you have. It hasn't even been a year. It's been three months since the murder. Suddenly, the big debate at Charlie Kirk's conference is how much do we let Nick Fuentes and his really bigoted ideas into the party? And you could tell, you know, it's striking to me that the audience was, I would say, pretty profuentes, at least a good segment of it. I mean, when people would bring up, you know, we got to keep Nick Fuentes out or whatever, they get booed or kind of Russell, Comedian Russell Brand said, well, maybe we should debate Nick Fuentes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, I mean, I. I think it's a sign that really kind of what Charlie Kerr created is really slipping out of. Of. Of what he imagined.

[B]

What did you make of Shapiro deciding to use this platform for this purpose?

[C]

I mean, I thought it was a bold move. I mean, I think he's been feuding with a lot of these people pretty openly, particularly in the case of Tucker Carlson. I mean, a lot of this comes down to, you know, U.S. support for Israel. Tucker Carlson has been really aligned with Qatar lately. I mean, he's been saying, you know, maybe we should be. Qatar should be our main ally in the Middle East. And so They've been clashing over that. But I thought it was really bold, particularly on the first night, which is, you know, so focused around Charlie Kirk again. His widow spoke before Shapiro. Then to get up there and say, you know, it was kind of like a, like a family meeting where there's been a lot of, you know, text messages flying back and forth and then you have Thanksgiving dinner and then it's time to, okay, let's hash this out. And I mean they, I mean, Ben Shapiro really tore into a lot of these people.

[B]

Well, I guess we should probably play a portion of what Shapiro said. It was like a 20 minute speech. Um, I put it on 1.5, but he speaks so fast that I had to then go back to 1.25. But it's worth watching a football. We're gonna, won't play the whole thing, but let's play the part where he goes after Owens. And then I also Megyn Kelly, because I thought that was kind of interesting.

[D]

But even if it were true that other public figures were our best friends, our very best friends, that does not relieve us of our duty to speak out of principle and not to cover up evil or shy away from addressing it out of friendship. So no, Tucker Carlson, it is not an excuse to go silent on Candace's targeting of tpusa. Or to mirror her bullshit lines of questioning because you love Candace personally. The same holds true of Megyn Kelly, a person I consider a friend. Characterizing Candace as a young mother and thus shying away from condemn her actions or filming about them. That is a non starter. Meghan Markle is a young mother. Ilhan Omar is a young mother. That doesn't matter. And when Megan said this week, quote, my goal and my job here is to try to understand, yes. Where Candace is coming from on this and says she sees no purpose in inserting herself quote into this. On one side that is a moral and logical absurdity. There is only one moral side here. Erica Kirk's side song. You know, the side of the widow with two children whose husband was shot live on camera in front of all of us. Friendship with the person accusing TP USA of a cover up of Charlie's murder is no excuse for cowardice.

[B]

The Megan Kelly thing. You have to be a little bit in the weeds on this feud to understand why he went at Megyn Kelly. But tell me if I'm wrong in how I'm describing. But basically I think he's going after Megyn Kelly because Megyn Kelly is, is not standing up or speaking out more forcefully against Candace Owens. In fact, she's decided to take this kind of back channeling approach to try to, you know, bring down the temperature between Candace Owens and Erica Kirk. Why does that make it so controversial for Ben Shapiro?

[C]

You know, I think for Megyn Kelly, I mean, these are people who are like kind of the real faces of right wing media, which in practice is also, you know, in many ways the conservative movement and the Trump administration. And so Megyn Kelly was, I would say, the most prominent person to, to stay on the sidelines of this feud. And in a way that I thought, and I think a lot of other people thought was really sort of because she was scared of Candace Owens. And so she's, she was seen as sort of allowing Candace Owens to pillage Charlie Kirk's legacy, terrorize his family and friends with her conspiracy theories. And then she would say, you know, she was actually kind of defensive of Candace in the past. She would, she would. When Ben Shapiro said, well, look, she's saying Charlie Kirk's widow murdered him essentially. And she would say, well, you know, she said, you know, you kind of parse her words and say, she didn't exactly say that. And you know, shame on you, Ben Shapiro. So she wasn't even really a neutral party here. But I thought it was useful. I mean, sort of throughout we would see this kind of equivocation. I mean, this. Keep in mind, this is Charlie Kirk's organization. This is his widow speaking that night.

[B]

I know.

[C]

And you get people like Tucker Carlson and, and in particular Russell, Russell Brand gets up there as well. And they're kind of like, look, can we just be neutral? Can we. We like Erica Kirk and like Candace Owens. And what I liked about what Ben Shapiro said is he got up there and said, look, these are not, these are not like two friends who are fighting over a Venmo payment or something, right? Like, this is one person here had her husband blown away on the entire world saw it. You know, she. Two young kids. And on the other hand, we have someone who's making a lot of money off of politicizing this death and conspiracy theories and going after this widow. So it's.

[B]

But it's not even that. It's like Candace has been basically suggesting, if not outright stating, that she believes TP USA staffers may have been involved in the assassination. And here they are at a TP USA event. And the people in the crowd, ostensibly supporters of TP usa, are like, well, maybe we should hear her out. Maybe we did. Are they suggesting maybe we did have A role. I mean, like, how do they even. How do they square that? It doesn't. It doesn't compute to me. I would, if. If someone had accused my organization of being complicit in a horrendous assassination and then covering it up, I would want to exile that person as far away as possible and diminish their influence because. But it doesn't seem like that's the case, at least for half the crowd.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think you can see there's this real, like, leadership vacuum right now at Turning Point usa. They don't. Including Erica Kirk, I would say they don't have someone with this kind of charisma that it takes to survive in right wing media and to sort of, you know, control the. The trends. And I mean, you're right. It is. It is like if, you know, the Bulwark was implicated in the assassination of one of our employees and then we say, oh, come on down to the live show. You know, don't worry about it.

[B]

Well, we'll talk it out. Maybe we can find some common ground. The only thing I would argue that was, and I know he addressed it, like, obliquely in one line, but, you know, in a speech that went after people for platforming bad actors. Ben Shapiro is also responsible for platforming bad actors. Right. Like, he helped elevate Candace. And I know he referenced it, but he didn't, like, you know, maybe take more ownership of it, I suppose. I don't know.

[C]

Oh, you're absolutely right.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

The challenge here is that a lot of these people are themselves. I mean, you know, implicate either implicated in Candace or with bigotry more broadly. I mean, in the case of, you know, Ben Shapiro, really platform Candace, she worked for him for a while and built her her brand there. And then, you know, Ben Shapiro himself. I mean, I think it was just within this year that they've been running a campaign to pard Derek Chauvin, the cop who murdered George, George Floyd. I mean, so the idea that his hands are clean is ridiculous. But I think it was this kind of unique moment of sort of standing up to these figures on really the right's biggest stage. And I saw a lot of TPUSA people who were retweeting and saying, you know, yes, go Ben Shapiro. But it's such a weird thing because then right after that you're going to put Tucker Carlson on the stage. So it's this weird thing where I feel like Turning Point is sort of wide open for the taking right now.

[B]

I want to read a couple reactions. Megyn Kelly tweeted the following. Ben Shapiro and Barry Weiss, because Barry Wise, basically the Free press ran Ben Shapiro's full speech as a piece and barrier. Weiss triumphantly posted it on Twitter and you know, clearly stating where she stands on this issue. So Megyn Kelly says bench baron Barry Weiss in a joint attack on yours truly parentheses their quote unquote friend tonight without a damn clue what has been going on behind the scenes for months. Prob should have checked with at tpusa and at Ms. Erica Kirk first. I'm embarrassed for them. That's fine. I expected something along the lines of that. The more illuminating reaction I thought was from Candace Owens herself who tweets, it's beyond obvious that Ben is tremendously fearful about something related to this assassination, which is just like such a perfect Candace Owens tweet. Any attack on her becomes evidence that you are complicit in a brutal murder. No, nothing, nothing substantiated. No Evidence, Nothing at all. Just, you know, throwing something out there that, yeah, Ben Shapiro is probably involved.

[C]

I mean, it's a. It's a beautiful logic. I mean, she can sort of add anyone who's critical of her. You know, she's already managed her audience. Yes. I mean, you know, I should say just hours before Ben Shapiro's speech, or maybe even an hour, Candace Owens, you know, she ostensibly had this maybe truce with Turning Point usa that's already over because she had a guy come out on her show and say, oh, yeah, I was at a military base the day before the assassination, and I saw Erica Kirk meeting with some Special Forces guys with the implication that she's like, all right, you know, here's how we're going to do it at Utah Valley University. I mean, so it is. It is truly crazy stuff, you know. So Tucker Carlson gets up there and he basically says, you know, first he says, you know, I missed Ben's speech. Excuse me. He says, I missed.

[B]

Why don't we just play part of the Tucker Cross?

[C]

Okay, great.

[B]

Here we go.

[E]

I just got here, and I feel like I missed the first part of the program. I hope I didn't miss anything meaningful, but I just want to say I don't think I did. No, I'm just kidding. I watched it. I laughed. I laughed. That kind of bitter, sardonic laugh that emerges from you and like, Upside down world arrives when your dog starts doing your taxes and you're like, wait, it's not supposed to work this way. To hear calls for, like, de platforming and denouncing people at a Charlie Kirk event. I'm like, what?

[C]

So he basically says, you know, I missed this pipsqueak speech. You know, who cares? He said, well, maybe I caught a little bit of it. And then he makes it all that. You know, we've seen how the left has. They're all about deplatforming. And so now why are conservatives talking about deplatforming? I think we're seeing this very, like, 2024 language about cancel culture and de platforming and wokeness now being used by people with these far right elements like Tucker, like Candace, to say, like, you can't criticize us. You know, that's what the left would do.

[B]

It's a Chinese finger trap. The more you pull out, the harder it gets to pull. It's like, if you dare push back at Candace, it becomes used as evidence that you're part of the conspiracy. If you call for people to. To not platform people like Candace or Nick Fuentes, you become opposed to free speech. And so there's nothing you can actually do to win these arguments because every time you try to make a point, it gets used against you. It's impossible to, it's impossible to navigate.

[C]

They're really stuck. I mean, I think the perspective of someone like Ben Shapiro, the only way to win this would be having a figure of like sort of mega charisma. Like essentially Donald Trump, I think, is the obvious answer here. That's why, you know, we started to see people on kind of the pro Israel faction of the right start to say, we need J.D. vance, we need Donald Trump to give an Oval Office address denouncing Candace Owens and groipers.

[B]

People are asking for that.

[C]

Yeah, I believe Joshua Hammer. Can you imagine the average American being like, what the, what the griper? Okay, we're at war with the gripers.

[B]

Fellow Americans, I come to you in this moment of peril. Candace Owens is out of control.

[C]

Candace Owens, she's, she's broadcasting five times a week. The Tucker made two other things I thought were interesting. One was, he says, he said when people say that you're a Nazi is the new. You're a racist. So he's saying, you know, again, drawing on that cancel culture stuff, he's saying when you hear someone like Nick Fuentes called a Nazi, you should just think about how rude the left was to us in 2020. And that's the same thing.

[B]

What if they are Nazis?

[C]

You know, I think from Tucker's perspective, I think, you know, it all comes out in the wash. And the other thing is that he was, he was saying, you know, everyone says, you know, there was, as we were saying, there's this tension in the room. You could, you could see the audience was, it was on edge. And he's saying, you know, people are talking about this right wing civil war. I don't see it. You know, I think this is actually an attempt to go after J.D. vance because he's friends with me and he's kind of positioning himself with the winning side, which, by the way, Erica Kirk has endorsed J.D. vance. It, I think it's very advantageous to these, this sort of insurgent faction led by Tucker to pretend that there is not a right wing civil war because they feel very empowered, I think, to sort of ransack at will and go after all their enemies. Whereas people like Ben Shapiro, Mark Levin, then suddenly they say, whoa, hey, there's no enemies on the right.

[B]

I'm thinking about what Ben Shapiro probably thought prior to this speech, which is there's going to be fleeting moments to try to take a stand, at least at this kind of level of stagecraft. And that of course, if you're going to do it, you got to do it at the first TP USA Amfest gathering after the assassination. And he shot his shot really like, I mean, this was, this was. There's really is not many. You could obviously go on your own podcast and do whatever you want, but this was the one chance and I'm glad he took it. I honestly am. It was a bit of courage in a moment when I think it's kind of absent. But I just, I got to be honest, I don't, I don't know how I can't see it working, at least not now. I think Candace is just this kind of unstoppable monster. I, I don't, I don't see it any other way.

[C]

I mean, I think it was telling that then in The Q&As a young man got up and asked, asked Ben Shapiro, well, what about this time? Israel attacked the USS Liberty 60 years ago, which is a very kind of griper themed question. I mean, I think that's where a lot of the young people are going. And the, the other symbol or you know, sort of trend moment I thought was Michael Knowles, who's also a host on Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire. He spoke after him and he gave like a pretty milquetoast kind of like we got to go after the left kind of speech. And so I thought it was telling that he did not sort of back up his boss on this, that he was sort of like, oh, you know, maybe I'll stand inside here.

[B]

I know we're talking about like this kind of civil war within the Right. But like, you know, and what would it look like if there was an actual real break? Right. Like because we're not quite there yet. I mean, there's still talking to each other. You know, they're obviously at these events. But like what would an actual break look like?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, perhaps the emergence of a. Either a rival organization, you know, strengthening of some kind of Nick Fuentes type operation. I mean, I think a lot of this will get hashed out in 2028 with the. That'll perhaps be the way, you know.

[B]

The direction rally around Vance. Yeah. Or something like that. But maybe there is something where they get a rival faction type thing and different organization spawns.

[C]

I mean, you might see for example, scuffles at America Fest. Oh wait, we're already getting that. You know, there's Always. There's always a good. There's always got to be a little brawl. There's always got to be a little fight at this thing. In this case, the Blaze has a host who's kind of like a rival of Nick Fuentes, and some guys who appeared to be groipers were kind of confronting him, and then he turned on them and they all ran away. So, you know, we're already getting, you know, a little bit of the sideshow going on as well.

[B]

Okay. How many more days of this festival do we have, or is it over?

[C]

Two more days. Two more days.

[B]

Okay. We'll keep tabs on it. We'll see what happens. Very curious to see more of the reaction to Shapiro. And honestly, Candace does her thing today, right? On her show. She's got a show.

[C]

Yeah. So. So she'll have another show. And. And she'll. I mean, she. She knows all this controversy just kind of feeds into the content mill, so I'm sure she'll address it.

[B]

All right, Will, thanks so much, buddy. Appreciate it. Always pleasure talking to you about the weird happenings in your neck of the woods. For those who love this stuff, you're sick. Like, Will, you have a disease. But we're here to help you. Subscribe to the False Flag newsletter. Subscribe to Bulwark Takes. Appreciate the support. Like share the algorithm, Will. If you do that, it'll help the algorithm. That's key. Talk to you soon, folks.

[C]

Later.