Bulwark Takes: Bill Kristol & Joyce Vance – The Rule of Law in Peril

Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Joyce Vance (former U.S. Attorney, legal commentator)

Episode Overview

In this urgent and incisive conversation, Bill Kristol and Joyce Vance dissect a profound crisis facing the U.S. Department of Justice and the rule of law: the firing of a respected U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia at President Trump’s directive, reportedly for refusing to prosecute Trump’s political adversaries. As Trump replaces independent prosecutors with loyalists, Kristol and Vance warn of the deliberate weaponization of the Justice Department, setting a dangerous precedent for American democracy. They draw on legal history, authoritarian playbooks, and their own experiences to underline how prosecutorial independence is essential—and why its current erosion echoes the darkest lessons of the past.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: Firing and Replacement of U.S. Attorney (02:14 – 05:45)

• Background: Trump fired Eric Siebert, interim U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, who had refused to pursue criminal charges, most notably against former FBI Director James Comey, due to a lack of evidence. He was respected across party lines.

  • Joyce Vance: “This is about Donald Trump trying to use the Justice Department as a political tool and not permitting the Justice Department that our Constitution envisions… where facts and law govern outcomes, not the whims of politicians.” (04:57)

• Legal Principle: Prosecutors have a duty not to proceed with cases unless they are confident in the evidence. The Federal Principles of Prosecution require enough evidence to both obtain a conviction and sustain it on appeal.

  • Vance: “You can't indict a case if you don't believe you have sufficient evidence to both obtain a conviction and to sustain it on appeal.” (06:40)

2. Political Loyalty over Qualifications (08:17 – 09:59)

• Replacement: Trump nominated Lindsey Halligan, a Trump-aligned attorney with almost no prosecutorial experience, to lead the district previously known for high-profile, complex cases.

  • Vance, skeptical of Halligan’s background: “This is not the kind of person you would expect to see become the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia… she doesn’t have the experience for the job.” (09:27)

• Trump’s Public Pressure: Trump openly pressed for prosecutions, sending a message through allies (“Pam, she likes you…”) and intimidating career officials.

  • Kristol: “The main thing is Trump is showing that he can order that these cases be brought… The intimidation effect… and the signal to other US Attorneys… is a pretty big deal.” (11:55)

3. Weaponization of the Law & Authoritarian Parallels (12:48 – 18:35)

• Abuse of Power: Both speakers emphasize the danger of using state power for personal revenge. Even if charges aren’t successful, the process punishes adversaries and intimidates others.

  • Vance, on Comey’s case: “This is the president… using [the criminal power] to take revenge on… one of his enemies… This is, I think, so far off the rails from what the president… should do.” (12:48)
  • Kristol shares a historical dictator’s quote: “‘For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law.’ And I think that is what Trump is doing…” (14:32)

• Historical Lessons:

  • Vance invokes Lavrentiy Beria (Stalin’s secret police chief): “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.” (15:40)
  • They discuss how “skillful authoritarians try to use the law against their opponents” to create an aura of legitimacy while punishing enemies.

• Constitutional Framing: Both reference the Founders’ intent to prevent concentrated executive power and the abuse of the government’s prosecutorial authority.

  • Kristol: “Montesquieu says… the exact power of government… is an awesome and scary power… our entire form of government was created… to avoid the pitfalls of monarchy and the rule of one man.” (17:14)

4. Erosion of Internal Guardrails & Culture of Compliance (20:32 – 23:38)

• Collapse of Guardrails: Kristol notes that in Trump’s first term, internal resistance—from Cabinet officials and lawyers at various levels—helped check abuses. That is now largely absent.

  • Kristol: “One feels that there’s almost none of that, at least at the top level in the second term.” (20:32)

• Pressure on Career Prosecutors: Vance stresses that most federal prosecutors are nonpartisan and committed to facts and law, but political appointees at the top and the threat of personal/professional loss places enormous pressure.

  • Vance: “It is wrong to insist that federal prosecutors across the country bear the burden of democracy entirely on their shoulders… I didn't make any money as a federal prosecutor… it would have been tough for me to walk away from my job. You also lose… retirement.” (23:38)
  • She explains many would resign rather than cross ethical lines, but the costs are high.

5. Call for Broader Support and Action (25:39 – 26:51)

• Civic Responsibility: Both speakers underscore the need for political, legal, and civic actors—Congress, business, law firms, community leaders—to support career prosecutors and reinforce public commitment to the rule of law.
  • Kristol: “Making clear to them that… they have a lot of support out there and they will be backed up and they won't be left all alone.” (25:39)
  • Vance: “Anyone who has ever served as a prosecutor… understands that this is a dangerous moment… courage really is contagious. And it would just take one or two people to break ranks with Trump on this issue…” (26:51)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prosecutorial Obligation:
  Joyce Vance (06:40):
  “You can't indict a case if you don't believe you have sufficient evidence to both obtain a conviction and to sustain it on appeal.”

• On Authoritarian Weaponization:
  Bill Kristol (14:32):
  “For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law. And I think that is what Trump is doing…”

  Joyce Vance (15:40):
  “I’ll see your Peru quote and I'll raise you Lenti Baria, Stalin's strongman, right? Who said, ‘Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.’”

• On Republican and Democratic Responsibility:
  Vance (26:51):
  “Anyone who has ever served as a prosecutor… understands that this is a dangerous moment… courage really is contagious. And it would just take one or two people to break ranks with Trump on this issue…”

• On Moral Support for Prosecutors:
  Kristol (25:39):
  “Making clear to them that they have a lot of support out there and they will be backed up and they won't be left all alone.”

Critical Timestamps

• [02:14] – Joyce recaps her experience and the importance of prosecutorial independence
• [04:57] – Trump’s political firing of Siebert and the importance of an impartial Justice Department
• [06:40] – Discussion of the Principles of Prosecution
• [09:27] – Appointment of Lindsey Halligan and her lack of qualifications
• [11:55] – Kristol’s warning about the intimidation effect on other U.S. Attorneys
• [12:48] – Vance on the dangers of using prosecution for personal revenge
• [14:32 & 15:40] – Historical authoritarians’ manipulation of law
• [17:14] – The Founding Fathers’ safeguards against abuse
• [23:38] – Pressure, risk, and the sacrifices expected of career prosecutors
• [25:39] – Kristol calls for proactive, visible support for government attorneys
• [26:51] – Vance: The contagiousness of courage and bipartisan responsibility

Tone & Style

The conversation is sober, urgent, and grounded in both historical perspective and practical legal experience. Vance’s plainspoken explanations and Kristol’s historical framing make clear the seriousness of these developments, but neither lapses into hyperbole—rather, both stress the weight and precedent of history.

Summary

Kristol and Vance argue that the current administration’s unprecedented use of the Justice Department for political retribution endangers fundamental democratic norms. They stress that sound legal process—not personal loyalty—must guide prosecutorial action, invoking both the experience of autocratic regimes and the intentions of America’s founders. They rally listeners: the defense of the rule of law cannot fall solely on the backs of career public servants; it requires visible, vocal, and practical support from the entire community, across parties and professions. The moment, they warn, is as significant as any in recent American politics—a test of both institutional resilience and national character.