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- [00:00]
JVL
Hello, everyone. I'm JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell of the Bulwark. And last night, Sunday, we, we had some big news. We had Donald Trump talking about 60 Minutes and how he wants the federal government to punish the news show, which is a, I guess a thing we do in America now. But first, before that, we had Bill Maher coming on his show and talking about his very nice and cordial dinner with Donald Trump and how he now knows the real man behind the tweets. Sarah, let's give it a listen.
- [00:39]
Bill Maher
The guy I met is not the person who, the night before the dinner, shit, tweeted a bunch of nasty crap about how he thought this dinner was a bad idea and what a deranged asshole I was. I read it and thought, oh, what a lovely way to welcome someone to your house. But when I got there, that guy wasn't living there. Now, does Trump want respect? Of course, who doesn't? My friend said to me, what are you going to wear to the White House? I said, I don't know, but I'm not going to dress like Zelensky, I'll tell you that. But he's much more self aware then he lets on in public. Look, I get it. It doesn't matter who he is at a private dinner with a comedian. It matters who he is on the world stage. I'm just taking as a positive that this person exists because everything I've ever not liked about him was, I swear to God, absent. At least on this night with this guy. A crazy person doesn't live in the White House. A person who plays a crazy person on TV a lot lives there, which I know is fucked up. It's just not as fucked up as I thought it was.
- [01:55]
JVL
Well, there it is. What do you think, Sarah?
- [02:01]
Sarah Longwell
Okay.
- [02:05]
JVL
Boy, that was a deep breath.
- [02:07]
Sarah Longwell
Do you know who else talked about really enjoying their dinner with Donald Trump, said what a nice person he is.
- [02:16]
JVL
Who?
- [02:17]
Sarah Longwell
White supremacist Nick Fuentes.
- [02:20]
JVL
Oh, he also had dinner with Donald Trump.
- [02:22]
Sarah Longwell
He did also have dinner with Trump. I think this is, I think this is a real problem in how anyone evaluates Donald Trump to say, oh, well, he's nice to my face or yeah, you know, he just asked me questions. Oh, Bill Maher, did he flatter your vanity? Did he charm you? I just. The extent to which Donald Trump uses the narcissism of others as a weapon is, I guess, I don't think you gotta hand it to him. But it is one of the ways in which he has been able to sort of master the elite class in this country. Right. I think it is one of the ways A, a sort of mix of menace, dominance, politics within flattery. I think that that has become an intoxicating brew for our elite class. And so, and look, when you dress it up as a kind of, well, what else are we supposed to do besides, you know, hurl insults at each other from 3,000 mil? And I'm like, he's like, of course we should sit down and talk. And I was like, are you negotiating a peace accord with somebody, Bill Maher, like, what is it about you sitting down with him that creates for everybody else a better understanding? Are you a stand in for the people? Like, what is your role exactly, other than famous person who has long been, I think, quite an effective critic of Trump because you. Well, I just, in the sense that he sees him right, like he just did this whole thing. And this is, you know, this is a problem we're having with a lot of people where he did a monologue the other, other day that I thought was quite good. I remember because I tweeted it and it was about how North Korea, like, Donald Trump and his top tier team are like the golfing and the yes, sir and the kissing is right. So he talks about how Trump is like, North Korea, these things don't exist together. It's a little bit like, you know, if you called, if you sit on your show and for months you say he's a Nazi sympathizer, he's the worst ever, you know, whatever. All things that I think are credible critiques of him. And then you're like, and I'm going to have dinner with him. And oh, he was nice. He was, it was perfectly cordial in person. You, my friend. And you know what? I appreciated Josh Rogan, not Joe Rogan. Josh Rogan was on his show and he caveated it a lot when he was on. He kept telling he too flattered. Bill Maher before he delivered what I think was in effect was, was a true thing, which is these people do not understand that they are being used by Donald Trump as PR props. He is using you to normalize him. And just because you get to be in the presence of him does not erase your earlier critiques. Like, just because in the flesh and blood, he was like, oh, hey, yeah, I don't have four heads and two tongues and I don't punch it in the face. That doesn't mean that everything you weren't criticizing about him and seeing clearly is wrong. And if you believe any of your analysis from before. And I'm not even saying like you can't have dinner with him like if you're a journalist, porter journalist and this is part of your job talking to this guy. Sure, but don't come tell the rest of us. No, no guys, don't worry. He's a super normal dude who's just, you know, who's a really pleasant dinner companion, super thoughtful guy. I'm not sure. And this is where it has always been my contention that the mega spiralide types are nowhere near as dangerous as the people who sort of see Trump clearly but get caught in their anti anti trap. Right. There's a reason that the apologists, the people who carry water for Trump on sort of the respectable intellectual right to me have always been much, much more harmful overall than just people who go all in full maga.
- [07:18]
JVL
Well they're more annoying to be sure. I so here's the thing about Bill Maher. He's always been a charlatan. I mean I, I've hated Bill maher for like 20 years. He was a very medium talent. Stand up his talk show. I, I've always been utterly mystified by why people watch it and people do watch it. I mean it's a very popular show. I don't understand it even by the standards of broadcast media. He is unbelievably superficial. He's a blowhard, he's vain. I mean this is a, he's just stupid. He is both stupid and self important. And here's the thing, there are two Bill Maher's here and one of them is wrong and is so wrong that the, the other Bill Maher ought to simply stop doing his television show because either the Bill Maher who was saying all those things about Trump being a monster was wrong. And so he's been wrong for years on end about everything. At which point like what is he even doing on television? Why, why would he be subtracting from people's understanding of the world by subjecting the rest of us to his opinions? Or this new Bill Maher who says that actually Trump is a totally normal guy is also wrong and is so monstrously wrong that again he should not be on television talking because he's too fucking stupid. Which one is it? One of them is right, one of them is wrong and he's so wrong that he shouldn't be on tv. Well, I'm glad that everybody has come around on Bill Maher hating the way I have been. Like everything else with Bill Maher, like the Key is that you can't like him just when he like, is agreeing with you. You have to understand that even when he is like, you know, theoretically on your side, he's still an asshole and he's still stupid. And so he's only on your side by accident.
- [09:21]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. I'll just say for the record, I don't. I actually find his critiques often quite good and sharp. I don't think he's stupid. I actually think, you know, he's. He's one of. He is extremely highly informed. See, and this is where I actually think, like low info types are people who don't pay a ton of attention to politics. They're not focused on it. They've got their sort of very bespoke concerns that impact only them. You know that I feel differently about people like that and their responsibility to understand who and what Donald Trump is than I do for people who are close political observers who know exactly what he is. So while I don't agree that he's stupid, I actually think he's quite sharp. And I think one of the reasons people I actually. And I also find, I think he is often very funny. And I think that delivering politics and humor.
- [10:20]
JVL
Funny.
- [10:21]
Sarah Longwell
I mean, he is sometimes quite funny. Yeah. And delivers funny moments on his show, which I think since the Daily show went away, I just think there's still like a real appetite still on the air. Yeah, but not with John. I mean, Jon Stewart is like back on Mondays, but like went back when it was like a really cultural. You still watch the Daily Show?
- [10:44]
JVL
I don't, but I. Well, whatever. That's my like, meh on Jon Stewart is a topic for another day.
- [10:51]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. Yeah, maybe. I don't know, maybe you just hate humor. I don't.
- [10:54]
JVL
You know what it is? I hate happiness, Sarah. I don't like it that people try to make other people happy.
- [10:59]
Sarah Longwell
This checks out. I do. This makes sense. Yeah. So anyway, but for people who are sharp political observers, for them to sort of. Because this is where you get. And also to allow yourself to be a pawn like this is. It is sort of the definition of a useful idiot. Right. Is that like you can be sort of. Oh, no, we'll bring you in, we'll give you a nice dinner, we'll be nice and inquisitive toward you and we'll flatter your particular pretensions about being central to the American discussion. And then you're going to go out and carry my water for me. You're going to go tell people what a nice guy I am, despite the fact that you do show after show every week, acknowledging in the news all of the damage that I do by being an absolute terrible person. And so, you know, I agree with you though that the contradiction is pretty. Like the swing is too broad to go from Trump North Korea lover and turning us into North Korea to Trump guy I dine with. Good dude.
- [12:09]
JVL
So, as you know, as we talked about with many of the anti antis, this is an analysis problem. And if you're anal, if you are so bad at analysis that you are catastrophically wrong in one of those two directions, then you shouldn't be doing it.
- [12:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. And that brings us, I think, to a second topic which also has me very annoyed and something I would put to mayor himself because Bill Maher is a free speech guy. Right. He's got that libertarian kind of bent. Oh, those libertarians.
- [12:44]
JVL
You can always count on the libertarians.
- [12:46]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [12:46]
JVL
All right, so, so let me, let me set it up. I want to tee this up for you. 60 Minutes was on, on Sunday night and it mentioned Donald Trump. They talked about Greenland and Ukraine. And here is the bleat from the President of the United States almost every week. 60 Minutes, which is being sued for billions of dollars for the fraud they committed in the 20 presidential election, blah, blah, blah, mentions the name Trump, all caps in a derogatory and defamatory way. But this weekend's quote broadcast all caps tops them, all set, etc. I am so honored to be suing 60 Minutes, CBS Fake News and Paramount over their fraudulent beyond recognition reporting. They did everything possible to illegally elect Kamala. Sorry, illegally elect Kamala. I have to read it in his voice, obviously, including completely and corruptly changing major answers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They should lose their license. Hopefully the Federal Communications Commission, parentheses fcc, which is the like the craziest part of this entire thing. But that's okay. As headed by its highly respected chairman, all capped, Brandon Carr will impose the maximum fines and punishment which is substantial for their unlawful and illegal behavior. CBS is out of control at levels never seen before and they should pay a big price for this. Make America great again. So, Sarah, that's the thing that happens in America now.
- [14:22]
Sarah Longwell
It is actually a thing that is because this is not the first time. Like when he says they're being sued for. He's the one suing them. He's suing them for other stuff. Yes. And you know what I know from George, because this is it actually goes to why the law firms and the media companies both capitulate for Roughly the same reason, which is mergers and acquisitions. There is apparently in that mergers and acquisition markets, especially among these media companies with streamers and all the things. There is a, a big glut of need from like Disney and other things to do, acquiring to do, you know, whatever.
- [15:03]
JVL
They've all got these paramedics of a sale right now.
- [15:06]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [15:07]
JVL
Right.
- [15:07]
Sarah Longwell
And so they end up having to. And by having to, I mean, you do not have to. You can make choices here. You have agency. But they decide that in order for them to pursue these business endeavors that they need to do, they must capitulate to Trump and give him protection money. Right. And if Paramount and CBS caves on this, I mean, if I say that like I'm about to threaten them with something real, but I'm not the President of the United States, so what am I going to do? It's just. But it is unconscionable what Trump is doing. But that's the part. I mean. Okay, so that part bothers me at the most fundamental level. But my sort of pedestrian annoyance going back to the anti indies is I was told reliably by so many of the people who said libs were worse, who said we couldn't vote for Kamala Harris, that Donald Trump was going to be a free speech champion. I was also told that about Elon Musk, that this is that. And you know, when, when Mark Zuckerberg said that he was going to, to become, you know, somebody to really work with Donald Trump, it was because we had to make free speech great again. And Elon had to buy Twitter to make free speech happen again. And the free press, you know, this is free speech is our central issue or someplace like Reason magazine, everybody, like, these are all the free speech, free speech, free speech. There's basically one group that has been consistent on that and that is fire the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Right. They have been 100%. But all these other people who during the Biden years and basically when a Democrat's in, just talk about free speech constantly. I don't know where they are. He is suing pollsters for results. He hasn't.
- [16:51]
JVL
What does Barry Wise, what does Barry Wise think about this?
- [16:53]
Sarah Longwell
She, I am curious.
- [16:55]
JVL
I mean, she did a whole Twitter files thing because it was bad that Twitter like suppressed tweets about the Hunter Biden laptop for 12 hours once.
- [17:04]
Sarah Longwell
I do think that went wrong though. I think she ended up into like a bit of a fight with Elon.
- [17:08]
JVL
Well enough to make her recant anything.
- [17:13]
Sarah Longwell
That I don't I don't. I don't remember the. I don't remember the details of the Twitter files situation. What I do know is that. That that is, like, part of the crowd that I do not understand why we're not up in arms about free speech at the moment.
- [17:32]
JVL
So I understand it. There is a fellow I follow on Substack, have followed him for years before Substack, and he is not quite part of the heterodox movement, but he was always right on the edge of the heterodox movement. And over the weekend, he wrote something in which he said, you know, we had all this stuff we wanted because we thought the DEI stuff was ridiculous and the woke stuff was super annoying, and we wanted more speech. And then we got it on Twitter, and now Twitter is basically a Nazi cesspool. And we have people who are trying to unstigmatize the Second World War and Germany and Hitler, and we have a bunch of people who are running around firing basically every woman with a high rank in the armed forces and pulling Maya Angelou books out of the Naval Academy library, but leaving Mein Kampf. And, like, I don't know, maybe all the DEI wokes were worried for a reason.
- [18:54]
Sarah Longwell
I actually can't believe the amount of which here.
- [18:58]
JVL
Maybe that stuff all existed because there are some really, very, very bad impulses running around through American culture.
- [19:06]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, maybe. I also. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. But the amount of, like, really racist stuff in the for you feed. And I don't know if, like, at some point I was like, oh, no. Or like, I saw one of them. And because this is the problem is if I saw it and was like, what is this? And then clicked on it, it just keeps giving you more.
- [19:30]
JVL
Give you more no matter what. Same way you get, Elon, no matter what. Right?
- [19:34]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that's true. You do. I block this guy. And you still can't.
- [19:38]
JVL
Doesn't matter.
- [19:39]
Sarah Longwell
It is wild.
- [19:40]
JVL
Now, Sarah, here's what I want to know. Where does woke DEI go to get its apology?
- [19:46]
Sarah Longwell
What?
- [19:48]
JVL
I'm just saying, it turns out that woke DEI existed for a reason, because there was a lot of, like, terrible stuff happening.
- [19:54]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but that's not a lot of.
- [19:56]
JVL
Like, really nasty impulses and people wanting to. Want to say and do terrible things. Yeah, I don't really mean that. Don't worry.
- [20:07]
Sarah Longwell
I'm just trying to trigger you. Okay. I don't.
- [20:10]
JVL
Woke deis are still terrible, Sarah.
- [20:13]
Sarah Longwell
Great. I just don't. I don't. I Don't. I don't think that that was the best corrective to what are some terrible human impulses. Here's the thing, though, I will say another thing that gets served to me that I saw, and you just mentioned this, so it's worth just throwing it out. There is this guy, Matt Walsh, who. I miss the days when I didn't know who these people were, but he's one of those Daily Wire guys and apparently a big part of his shtick is just being like super misogynistic.
- [20:45]
JVL
That guy is so butch. I mean, but I really. He's a man's man.
- [20:49]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I think like when he shows up, it's always like some lecture about women and how, you know, men should be alpha and trad wives. I don't know. Anyway, but I got, I saw he did this thing where somebody was. He was quote, tweeting the story about the four star female general that got fired. And he was like, good. You know, like this. And because they're just. I don't know why they're purging a lot of women from the military. I mean, I mean, I do know, but this appears to be a thing that's happening.
- [21:27]
JVL
Well, it's probably all merit based. Yeah, they probably all have really bad performance reviews or something. And just a coincidence, they all happen to be minorities and women.
- [21:36]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I just. It does strike me, Donald Trump was obviously a draft dodger who has repeatedly insulted men and women in uniform. But like, you get these guys like Matt Walsh being like, this woman is. I don't care what you think. She's serving her country. Like, where did these. Did Matt Walsh serve his country in uniform? I presume. Even, even if you think DEI got her there, she probably still worked pretty hard. She still served her country, devoted her career and her life to it. Is that. Are we not respecting that anymore or is it.
- [22:13]
JVL
Of course, we don't respect that. It's like the cops thing. Blue lives matter. Except for the Capitol Police. Right. And this is. I respect law enforcement, except for the FBI, which. And when the FBI is carrying out a raid at Mar a Lago, then you can't trust anything that the cops do or say. Right. It's. It's what all of this is.
- [22:32]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, I know. I just, I guess I, I guess what I want is for individuals like Matt Walsh to feel some modicum of embarrassment or shame being somebody who's never served his country and criticizing someone who has.
- [22:50]
JVL
I mean, I don't know. Matt Walsh.
- [22:52]
Sarah Longwell
Now you could, now you could criticize her for if there was one specific thing, but, like, this was just woman. Get her out of there.
- [22:58]
JVL
Yeah, I feel pretty confident in saying he won't ever feel embarrassment or shame right now.
- [23:04]
Sarah Longwell
I understand this.
- [23:05]
JVL
Yeah. You know who else won't? Bill Maher. Because he is a callow, vain little pony. He's a little man, a little, little fellow.
- [23:20]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, well, I'm also a person of small stature, so I'm not gonna.
- [23:24]
JVL
You know, I'm not all making. I'm merely observing. Sarah, I'm not making any valid judgments about it. I'm just saying he's a pathetic little man, that's all.
- [23:32]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, okay. Let's settle down.
- [23:35]
JVL
You want more of this hot fire? Hit like hit. Subscribe. Follow the feed. Come with us as we journey on our rocket sled to hell. Good luck, America.