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- [00:00]
Expedia Voice
Trip planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia made to travel.
- [00:16]
Saeed Jones
Hey, y' all, I got to talk about the Big Beautiful Turd Bomb. Boof. Whatever. And our big upcoming World Pride event supporting the immigration lawyers that are defending Andre Hernandez Romero and the other Venezuelans who have been disappeared to El Salvador with some of my new besties over at Vibe Check. Sai Jones, Zach Stafford, Sam Sanders. They have a great pod, which you should check out if you haven't. And we vibed out on all those issues. We did a little, you know, kind of catty gay talk, uh, but also covered some real serious stuff. I think, as Saeed put it, he can dance at the club and throw a Molotov cocktail at the same time. And that's the vibe of the show and also what we're going to be going for at our fundraiser. So if you're in D.C. june 6, want to come to the fundraiser, link in the notes here, and otherwise enjoy some clips from my appearance on Vibe Check.
- [01:11]
Sam Sanders
All right, listeners, we're back, and it's now time to talk about the Big Beautiful Bomb. I mean, Bill, So, so much of politics right now feels like it's happening in a funhouse mirror.
- [01:21]
Saeed Jones
The.
- [01:21]
Sam Sanders
The policies don't match, the promises, and the consequences seem so dangerous, and yet certain Americans are not even seeing. Sorry. And certain Americans are not seeing it that way at all. Last week, House Republicans passed a bill that could massively slash Medicaid, a program that one in five Americans rely on, even though their margins and swing districts are razor thin with the Republican Party right now. So it's this kind of political gamble that feels like it should back fire, but right now it feels like maybe it's not, or maybe it is. We don't really know. So we've invited Tim Miller, our friend from the Bulwark on for former Republican operative and just one of the smartest people we talk to when we can. And we want to hear from him what the hell is going on. So, first off, Tim Miller, welcome to Back to Vibe Check. How are you doing?
- [02:03]
Saeed Jones
It's good to be back. It's good to see you. I'm a little disappointed in you, though. Big beautiful bomb. We can do better than that.
- [02:10]
Tim Miller
I liked it.
- [02:11]
Saeed Jones
What about you? I don't know. Just the girls. Big beautiful boof. I don't know.
- [02:15]
Sam Sanders
Big beautiful boof.
- [02:16]
Saeed Jones
I like that something else we could do a little better than Bomb.
- [02:19]
Zach Stafford
I want to tell you, I was. I feel so late. I didn't realize that that was actually the name of the legislation. I really.
- [02:27]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah, I just.
- [02:28]
Zach Stafford
Because. Well, because I was like, why? And it's. I was like, why are people in media parroting Trump's own language? I was like, just because he calls it that. You don't have to call it that, but it's actually was introduced in the.
- [02:40]
Tim Miller
Halls of Congress with.
- [02:41]
Saeed Jones
Yes.
- [02:42]
Sam Sanders
That's so funny, Saeed. Okay, so we. Tim, I don't know if you know this about Senator Elizabeth Warren was on the show a few weeks ago and we talked about it there, but it did feel like a joke when we were talking about it, because I was like, what do you think of this big, beautiful Bill? She's like, oh, a big, beautiful mess or something. And then we just kept going. And then here in Provincetown, we just did a live show. I'm still here. I brought it up. And someone was like, it's not really called that. Why do you keep saying it? And I was like, no, girl, it's called what it actually has been put in. So, Tim, you've been following it very closely. What do you think of this mess? What is this mess? What are you calling it?
- [03:13]
Saeed Jones
Yeah, we've just been working through different things. You know, I think. I think Bill Crystal called the big beautiful turd in the newsletter the other day. I don't know. That's a little. I don't know. The poop humor without any sexy talk related to it isn't great for me. But we'll keep working on it. I don't know. Here's the thing, man. It's kind of hard to enunciate why it's particularly bad without understanding the context, because in a lot of ways, it's pretty similar, frankly, to what Bush did in 2001, what Bush did again in 2003, what Trump did in 2017. And it is just an across the board tax cut you are paying for. Some of it is even generous, like a little bit of it with cuts to various social programs, in this case Medicaid and snap. And so, like, in a lot of ways, it's like a traditional Republican thing. And so, like, it should kind of break down on like, Republican Democratic lines. But the thing that's different about it this time is, number one, like, Trump has reoriented the whole party to try to be like, dance party or whatever. And if you look at the poll, if you look at the numbers have been coming out as more, as we learn more about the election, look more at the data, like it worked. Like, whether you like it or not, like it worked in the communities and in the counties where people are low, have, you know, less college attainment, lower incomes. Trump did better than he did the last time, and that is across the board. And Hispanic communities, black communities, white communities, like, in the lower income ones, he did better. So his bullshit worked with those folks. And so the fact that he's like, doing a tax cut for the rich while cutting services to the poor while doing better with working class voters is something that's worth thinking about and talking about. And then on top of that, he's doing it at a time when the debt. I know people start to roll their eyes and get bored anytime you bring up the debt, but it finally is reaching a point where it's affecting people's lives day to day. It really wasn't before because it is related to the interest rates we're all paying on our houses, on students. You gotta be back paying student loans now. Those are on car loans, you know, so regular folks, you're paying higher interest rates now. And a big part of that is this debt. And, you know, if you're doing a huge bill, it's going to jack up the debt. Like back in 2001, you know, back after the financial crisis. Like, you know, it's more defensible than it is now. So I think for those two contextual reasons, like the politics and the deficit side of things, like, it's, it's, it's as. It's worse than like the previous Republican efforts to cut the rich. Understandable.
- [05:44]
Tim Miller
And hearing you bring up the debt, the difference between Bush trying these tax cuts before is that Trump has been doing this in this landscape that he's created of just like a madhouse, you know, it's a tariff here and not a tariff there. It's this over here, not over there. And all this uncertainty has led to Moody's this month becoming the last of the three major credit rating agencies to downgrade America's credit rating. All three of them say that we no longer have the highest possible rating. And the thinking is that this bill, should it pass, could lower it even more with so much more new debt. And so it's like, it would be horrible if it was just a regular Republican doing this, but the fact that he does it amidst so much chaos, it makes it even worse. It's bad.
- [06:31]
Saeed Jones
I know, and it's hard. And I think maybe this might be the time that it starts to land with people. I was talking to mayor turned secretary Pete now, dad, not his gay dad, Pete, no job title this morning.
- [06:44]
Sam Sanders
Jobless, working, gay dad.
- [06:46]
Tim Miller
Fatherhood is a job. Fatherhood is a job.
- [06:49]
Saeed Jones
I think Chastain's doing most of the parenting, let's be honest. But look. Well, Pete, anyway, sorry.
- [06:58]
Zach Stafford
This is why I was so excited to talk to you. You are a messy Southern girl and.
- [07:03]
Saeed Jones
You get into the teens. I used to be a Republican. So we've been talking about the debt for a while and we have been doing job of managing it. But like, we talk about it like the Democrats progressives don't like to talk about as much. Why? And he was saying, man, he's like, look, I think it can land now because we're at a time where the government is paying so much interest on the debt and because other people's interest rates are going up. Because we just laid out, Sam, about what's happening with the ratings agencies, that it's actually going to impact things that progressives care about. Right. And so like you, even so, if, let's say, God willing, we have elections in 2028 and somebody you're the Democrat of your dreams gets in in 2029. Well, like it's going to be harder for them to do the programs that they want to do because they're spending so much money that should be going to whatever paid family leave, whatever the program is that's being paid as interest on our fucking debt because we cut taxes on.
- [07:53]
Tim Miller
Exactly. Yeah.
- [07:54]
Saeed Jones
I do think it can become kind of a progressive issue in that sense.
- [07:57]
Tim Miller
Well, and it's all about global diplomacy, like part of the strength of our economy being so strong, it helps us be a leader in world affairs. And if our economy gets weaker and more chaotic while China's continues to get stronger, that affects how much power we get to wield and hopefully a good way across the world. Steps off soapbox.
- [08:17]
Saeed Jones
Sure, man. I love that globalist, Sam Sanders. I'm with you on that.
- [08:20]
Tim Miller
Not globalist. Don't call me global.
- [08:23]
Saeed Jones
Wave that American flag you're selling me. You're getting me.
- [08:25]
Tim Miller
Now, who else has a question?
- [08:30]
Zach Stafford
Tim, I wanted to ask you, and this is more broad, you mentioned that in some ways, and I think you're absolutely right, that in some ways this bill is very much in line with, you know, the Republican Party's hope, wishes and dreams for the last two decades. Right. And unexpectedly, I guess, in some ways, Trump is the person who's been able to kind of deliver. As a former Republican operative, I just wondered, how do you feel seeing this play out? Do you perceive this term. Let's set aside Trump's first term. Do you perceive Trump's second term and the policies putting in place, let's take Medicaid, for example, as a divergence from the Republican Party you once knew. Or does this feel, I guess I'm asking, does this feel like the chickens are coming home to roost for you? I mean, you once participated, right? In policy decisions that are in some ways in line with what's happening, you know, so how do you. How do you reconcile all of that?
- [09:40]
Saeed Jones
Sure, it's a fair question. I feel bad about it. It's the short answer, but I think it's a little bit of a Frankenstein monster, right? Like, people want on the Internet, people are yelling at me like, the Never Trumpers always want to be like, this is so different. This is such a departure. You know, like, stop. Stop tagging us with this. Like, a lot of the folks in my world and a lot of progressives that come over, like, you did this, you know, like, this is all your fault, and this is all this endgame of what Reagan wanted. And it's kind of like a little bit of both, right? It's like, it's a little bit of a Frankenstein monster of, like, kind of the worst of both worlds, I would say, right? I mean, I. Look, I think that, you know, there was always a big internal fight within the Republican Party about, you know, how to balance, like, fiscal responsibility with tax cuts with a social safety net. You know, like, there was always Rockefeller Republicans versus right. Republicans. There's McCain versus Bush. Like, McCain didn't vote for the Bush tax cuts in 01 or maybe 03. I forget. Because he thought it was too irresponsible. And then he ends up being the nominee in 08, right? So, like, there were. I think that there was angel and devil. Like, the devil part of Trumpism was already always there within the Republican side. Like, the lack of care about the social safety net, the cuts of social safety net. That is something that I was certainly, you know, part of and complicit in. I think there are other parts of Trumpism that, like, are totally new and just out of his fucking weird brain that, like, was. Was not part of the conversation at all before, like, random, you know, sending people away to secret prisons in El Salvador. You know, like the tariff for the weird tariff regime Sam was mentioning, where it's like, it's 140 now, it's 10 now it's 50. Right. Like, you know, so there's some elements of Trumpism that I think are very unique and then there are others that are a manifestation of what, where the party's been for a while. And like he ended up kind of on the worst side of all of it. You know what I mean? Like it's sort of the word, it's a kind of a gumbo of all, like the worst parts. It's a bad metaphor, but not a gumbo. Yeah, I was like, oh God, gumbo. But it's kind of a, it's a collection of all of all of it. And it's almost like he plucked kind of the bad parts from, from previous eras and added his own, added his own kind of nefarious plans on top.
- [11:56]
Sam Sanders
You go first, Sam.
- [11:57]
Tim Miller
Okay. I have been thinking a lot and I want to get your perspective, Tim, on how the Democrat, how Democrats play this, if they play it at all. There's some progressives and Dems saying fight this, call your House member, call your senator, get in the streets, do things, stop this bill because it's not a done deal yet. Then there are other prominent Democrats saying, well we got to just let Republicans do this so that Americans see how bad it is. And then maybe we get midterms. Can I be honest? I think that is so callous. I think it's really callous for Democrats to even pretend that they're okay with this bill getting through if it teaches voters a lesson. Cuz it could have really damaging effects. But I also know that I'm not a political strategist, which is the right strategy. Let these Republicans bury themselves or fight, fight, fight.
- [12:51]
Saeed Jones
I'm gonna take my kind of lapsed my cradle Catholic, my old Catholicism, like what we, you know, what I learned as a child and I'm just gonna, you know, put the sign of the cross on your forehead and say you can free your soul on this one, Sam. Doesn't matter what you're rooting for, it.
- [13:06]
Tim Miller
Doesn'T matter what the Democrats gonna pass.
- [13:08]
Saeed Jones
Either way we can have both houses and the presidency. And so I think that Democrats should argue for what they think is right. And I don't like the Democrats don't have control. I hear you. It's, you know, I've thought about this in the context of like the tariffs, like there's me on the inside that's like I want them to keep the 145% tariffs. I want the stock market to crash. I want everybody to fucking have to live in the horribleness of what we voted for. And that's probably wrong. But the good news is what I want doesn't matter. Actually, we made the case we could. We advocated against it, folks voted for this. And when the midterms come up, I think Democrats are going to have to make a case against. That's it. And making it kind of easy on the Democrats and the midterms. It doesn't even seem to me like the Trump is. He cares about the midterms or is even trying.
- [14:00]
Sam Sanders
Yeah, he's like, backtracks.
- [14:02]
Saeed Jones
Not somebody that cares at all. This is the only bill they're gonna do. Most of the other shit he's doing is by executive order, mostly legally. And so who cares if the Democrats have the House for Trump? I don't, you know, that he. That it matters to him. And I think that he's dropping a massive bomb. There you go.
- [14:19]
Sam Sanders
Thank you. Thank you.
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Tim Miller
I thought you were gonna say deuce.
- [14:23]
Saeed Jones
On its own frontline House members, because I just think they're gonna be totally boned by this bill.
- [14:29]
Zach Stafford
It does feel like. So I hear your point about callousness, but I'm like, well, you're allowed to feel how you feel. You don't have to. But it seems like so much of the work Democrats are going to need to do, whether we're talking about Medicaid, whether we're talking about EPA rollbacks, whether we're talking about tariffs, is that they're going to really have to draw a clear BR for voters. This is what was happening before. This is how you were protected before. These were the benefits you had before. And this is where we're at now because of him, you know, and just being very clear, your water was clean before, and now you don't know what's in your water, you know, if it's contaminated or not. And it's because of him.
- [15:09]
Sam Sanders
Yeah.
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Saeed Jones
And they're not done a lot of the stuff they're putting in 2029, you know.
- [15:13]
Sam Sanders
Yeah.
- [15:13]
Saeed Jones
Deal with that.
- [15:14]
Sam Sanders
Pushing it way down the line. Way down the line. You know, Tim, before we move on to the next segment, which will be much gayer, I want to ask you, as a Republican person, do you think Republicans today, you know, these like, young, let's call them Gen Z kids that are really on TikTok, talking about how much Trump is amazing, he's going to make them rich. Do you think they're going to wake up in a year and be like, holy shit, I was lied to? Because I look at things in this bill like this no tax on tips. You know, no tax on tips was attached, but it's not as big as people think it is. Like there is like a cap on it that's like 20 grand, I think. And most people who live off tips already surpassed that, so they are going to get taxed anyway. So we have a bunch of people who are going to wake up in a year and be like, wait a minute, I'm still getting taxed. What the hell do you think they'll wake up and see the light through all this?
- [15:57]
Saeed Jones
I don't know, man. I'm worried about the young MAGA guys in particular because it is, this is one area where I do think it's different. Well, again, like anything, there are going to be some similarities, but I think that there is a category difference. Like when I was our era, you know, you went to a college Republican event back in 2001, before, before 9 11, it was mostly a bunch of little Alex P. Keaton boys. You know, like they were the boys that wore the khakis and the jacket, the blue jacket to school with their briefcase. And they just want tax cuts and want, you know, want the. And one strong military. And maybe there were some religious folks there too as part of that little group. And I go to Turning Point USA event every year now just to kind of see what's happening. And it's very different. Like it's a cultural thing. Like the big motivating factors for a lot of these young kids are, you know, they don't like whatever, you know, woke stuff. They don't like getting finger wagged. There is some racial elements to it.
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Tim Miller
You don't say.
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Zach Stafford
When you say racial, you mean racist, right?
- [17:02]
Saeed Jones
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just mean like they are motivated. Well, I guess to say racist, right? Is like to say like, it's not like I'm going to these things and they're like being like, hey, dropping the N word or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, it's more like when I ask them, like, what are the issues that motivate you? It's like, oh, DEI is out of control. Affirmative actions out of control. Like for some of those kids because they're straight racist. And for some of the kids, right, like that is just like the policy thing that they're in. That's what everybody's talking about. It's the world that they're in. And so I think that they are very, they are very much not really like as, as, let's see, how do I put this? Having like a policy Worldview, like an ideological worldview. It's very much more like a cultural opposition to what they see as kind of a dominant, more multicultural America that they are pushing back against. And I think that's tough to unravel. Right. Like, motivated by. Is like, you're really annoyed by the liberal girls on your campus that aren't giving it up. And you're annoyed the fact that you didn't get into this whatever school because you. And you blame it on the Indian kid that got in instead. Man, that's tough to unravel.
- [18:10]
Sam Sanders
Yeah. Because it's so, like, vibe centric. It's kind of like this thing that we always talk about, how young white men feel so unheard and they don't think people are understanding their feelings. However, every fudgeing podcast is about how white men are unheard and not having their feelings hurt. So it's like kind of like. And it's just like vibes and trick.
- [18:25]
Zach Stafford
Oh, my God. I just heard Scott. Scott Galloway, he just broke.
- [18:28]
Sam Sanders
He just popped in.
- [18:29]
Tim Miller
You know, he has like four podcasts.
- [18:31]
Zach Stafford
I believe he does. And he says the same thing.
- [18:35]
Saeed Jones
Working.
- [18:38]
Zach Stafford
For putting in the original dei. I did. Before we move on. I did. I want to ask you, because I am really. There are a few people in your position that I have the patience to talk to about politics. I'll be blank.
- [18:53]
Saeed Jones
Very few.
- [18:54]
Zach Stafford
Yeah, Very few on the list or.
- [18:56]
Saeed Jones
I'm on the edge. I'm teasing you.
- [18:58]
Zach Stafford
At the top of the list. It's a short list, though.
- [19:01]
Sam Sanders
Yeah, but, Tim, you're at the top.
- [19:03]
Zach Stafford
Yeah, you're at the top. But really, I mean, I guess my question is, this is a question one to one, but also I think a question for the Democratic Party. There's this obsession with should we be trying to appeal to, like, young. Let's. Let's say the young Maga bros, for example, you know, whether that is. Where's the Joe Rogan of the left? Like, you constantly hear that. You know, it's been every week since the election. There's a news cycle around that or whether, you know, it's worth as individuals putting time and energy, as you said, trying to untangle a knot that is like, I don't. I don't know. Where do you feel like, is that worth the energy or should we be using our energy, you know, in other ways?
- [19:49]
Saeed Jones
That's a good question. I mean, look, I think at an individual level, I think everybody should do it. Helps them feel fulfilled, you know, and so I'm not here to kind of tell People how they should spend their individual energy at a group level. Look, I think that sometimes it's easy to say, look, there's a lot of stuff to mock about all the stupid thing. There needs to be a Joe Rogan on the left and, oh, we need to pander. There's a lot of stupid shit out there. No doubt about that. But there is also a question of, like, okay, why is it that, like, working class Hispanic men that Comel did 21 points worse than them? Is it like, oh, it's misogyny and let it go. And there's certainly some of that, man. Like, there's certainly some of that. I'm not saying that there isn't, like, what could be done that, like, lets people feel heard. And I think the one thing that, that resonates with me a little bit on this is that I do feel like, as a critique of Democrats is that I do feel like generally Democrats, like, understand the idea and value maybe sometimes too much the idea of, like, representation and making sure everybody feels heard. And, like, we gotta make sure that there's. Everybody's at the table. Like, every voice is at the table. And it's like, well, if Democrats are saying every voice needs to be at the table except young white guys or except guys that listen to Rogan, then, like, you shouldn't be surprised when they're like, fuck you, all right? I'm gonna vote for the biggest asshole in the world to put his little tiny, little middle finger up, you know, to punish you. And so, like, that part I get. I don't think it means pandering. It doesn't. It certainly doesn't mean we should have a $20 million effort to, like, have a young man strategy. Like, it probably just means, like, having more working class, like, guys or people that are from that background around when you're making decisions on campaigns, right? It probably just means more like, going and appearing on their shows and listening to them and, like, just being normal, right? Just talking and having an exchange and disagreeing. I don't know. Like, I saw Pete on that fucking flagrant podcast with Andrew Schultz. I listened to all three hours of that fucking thing, and at the end of it, I was like, why are these guys even for Trump? Yeah, it's. They don't have any depth of reason for being for Trump except that they're so annoyed at the other guys. And so, you know, there's probably something to be said for, like, at least showing up and trying, and I think that's valuable. And if there's Valuable in your day to day life to show up to. You know, we have this thing in New Orleans called Son of a Saint. It's for, like, young. It's mostly black. Young, black guys that don't have dads. And I'm fine, you know, I'm busy, but I try to go and, like, do something like once a month and, like, show up there. Like that's all valuable. Like, just showing up. I think that's valuable.
- [22:29]
Sam Sanders
Yeah.
- [22:29]
Tim Miller
Well, and just like, listening to them, which is sometimes frustrating. Like what Mayor Pete did on that three hour podcast. Half of what he did was like, explain why he's better than the other side, but the other half was just listening. And that does a lot. And I think a lot of times, progressives and Democrats, myself included, it's like, I don't want to hear you. You're wrong. But some of the work is just literally listening. Not agreeing, but listening.
- [22:54]
Sam Sanders
The hard work, the therapeutic work. Sometimes it's just listening.
- [22:57]
Saeed Jones
Well, you guys gotta go talk to straight guys. That's your home.
- [23:01]
Sam Sanders
Hey, I went through that phase in college. I was great at it. Then I left it, you know, quite good.
- [23:10]
Saeed Jones
You're stuck in the box, living out there in real America.
- [23:13]
Zach Stafford
Yeah.
- [23:13]
Saeed Jones
Thank you.
- [23:14]
Zach Stafford
I like this. A strategic inversion of like, gay for pay, where we're like, gay for straights.
- [23:21]
Sam Sanders
Hey, let me hold you, baby.
- [23:22]
Tim Miller
Let me talk about allies.
- [23:24]
Zach Stafford
You're so special.
- [23:25]
Saeed Jones
Look at those muscles. Oh, my God, you're so strong.
- [23:29]
Sam Sanders
All right, well, speaking of muscles and allies for allies, all that, we're going to talk about pride next, so we'll take a quick break here, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more vibe check.
- [23:39]
Zach Stafford
All right, we're back. And before we talk about world pride, we were talking during the break and I just got to get one more. This isn't even a stray. I want a direct hit. This is a drone strike, baby. Scott Galloway, shut the fuck up, okay? I think you're unattractive. Even when I agree with your ideas, I disagree with them because I just don't like you. Kara Swisher gave us Elon and you are giving us the same retreaded points about, oh, poor boys, poor white men. It's so hard. I hate you. You have a face for a canceled podcast. I don't like you anyway.
- [24:12]
Sam Sanders
And sign Saeed Jones.
- [24:14]
Zach Stafford
Sign Love Saeed Jones, just for me.
- [24:18]
Saeed Jones
Can I bring you together? You and Scott together?
- [24:20]
Zach Stafford
Yes, I would love.
- [24:23]
Sam Sanders
On stage. Invite me and Sam. We will sit there, front row.
- [24:27]
Tim Miller
I will Just be.
- [24:30]
Saeed Jones
We.
- [24:30]
Tim Miller
I'll be recording video.
- [24:33]
Zach Stafford
Listen, we're talking about World Pride. And the first Pride was a protest, and I had to. I had to set it off.
- [24:38]
Tim Miller
No, it was a riot.
- [24:39]
Zach Stafford
Yes, it was a riot. It was a riot. That brick was for Marcia Scott Galloway. Okay, let's talk about World Pride. Tim, you were doing something really special, and I've got to say, I know, you know I love to give it to you. I'm like, okay, but you used to be Republican, too, girl. So what's up? What's tea? But I have got to say, the way you have consistently spoken up for. Am I saying. Is it Andre?
- [25:06]
Saeed Jones
Andre.
- [25:07]
Zach Stafford
Andre Hernandez, a gay activist, disappeared by the Trump administration a couple of months ago. I mean, you, for a long time were the only person in media I saw speaking about his situation. And I appreciate you have not let up. You've continued to do so, and now you're going to do a Pride event, you know, to draw more attention to his cause, because so many people are caught up in this, and I've really worried about queer people kind of getting ensnared in these ice disappearances. So please tell us more about him and this event.
- [25:40]
Saeed Jones
Yeah, thanks, man. Well, the event is in D.C. june 6, so it's the Friday during World Pride. I've received a couple of negative pieces of feedback from my friends about this, because it means they're gonna miss JLO or something. And, like, there's a lot of good music out there.
- [25:55]
Tim Miller
One can always miss JLo.
- [25:56]
Zach Stafford
Miss JLo. Listen, you tell those white queens to put on some music by Ashanti, and it'll be like, they didn't miss anything. He ain't missing JLo.
- [26:05]
Saeed Jones
You listen to Shanti at home. You got Troy speaking of the queen of the white queens. He's tomorrow. He's Saturday night.
- [26:11]
Sam Sanders
The queen, the twins.
- [26:12]
Tim Miller
Yes.
- [26:12]
Saeed Jones
There. No conflict there. Anyway, and I was just like, look, man, we get to. We did it a time where you can still go to the club after, you can still take your shirt off and. And do whatever it is that you want to do on during World Pride, because it's at 8 o' clock. We do it with my buddy John Lovett from Crooked and Sarah Longwell. We got to let the lesbians be involved. We got some secret surprise LGBT plus guests that are coming. And. And, like, the origin of this was, as you pointed out, this story's just really pissed me off. It just pissed me off, and I've gotten so mad and my blood's boiling and I Think about it when I'm going to sleep at night. And I was thinking about in the shower. I got out of the shower. I'm usually doing other things in the shower. I got out of the shower and I texted John Lovett and I was like, we gotta fucking do more. Like, I could sense it going away, in part because it's not Kilmar Brego Garcia's fault, but in part because that drew so much attention that some of these other pieces lost attention. That's just the nature of media. And so we decided to do this. It's a fundraiser. It's going to go to the Immigrant Defenders who are doing unbelievable work advocating for him and the other Venezuelans that have then disappeared is really the right word. It's not because these are not El Salvador citizens. They are from Venezuela. They fled communism, they fled discrimination and oppression. They fled bigotry in the case of Andre as a gay man. And they came to this country, many of them, including Andrea, did so legally, like through the CBP1 app. They did what they're supposed to do. It's not like they swam across the Rio Grande. Not like it'd be any better if they did. But just, just so you know, they, they use the app. They showed up to their appointment and they got to their appointment. And because he is, he's from Venezuela and has tattoos on his arm that I guess allegedly seem like they're the similar to the tattoos that some gang members have, which is just totally bullshit in his case because his tattoos are about his mom and dad. He got put into this plane with about 250 other Venezuelans and sent to El Salvador and they're gone, they're disappeared. The only reason they even knew he was there was because they saw his, him in the background of videos of some of those porn sadas videos that Kristi Gnome's been doing down there. And it's not just him. There's a, there's a guy, Neri, you might have seen him. He has the autism awareness tattoo. He worked at a bakery in Dallas. His brother had autism. He volunteered at the Autism center and they sent him there. And the guy, God love him, that owned that bakery has been very. Also, just like this man is not Trenda Aragua. He's not. Again, I saw him every day in my bakery, like, this is crazy. And disappeared. These people, they are in a hole in El Salvador. And here's my last thing on this. There's some issues where it's like it feels good to just put up your Instagram meme and say, I did something. And that actually doesn't really do a whole lot of good. There's certain things that drawing attention, it actually might hurt it politically or, or that you have no influence over it. This is not one of those cases, man. Like, the only way that these guys are going to get back or get home or get free or get wherever we can get them where they're safe is by rattling the cages of the people in D.C. and of the people and of Bukele and the people in El Salvador because. Stop talking about it. They're just, they're just going to. Into the ether and there's going to be no motivation by anybody to do anything. And so anyway, this is one thing. It's not going to be the last thing we do. But we figured since he's prominent, he's a makeup artist. Like I said, he came here, he fled Venezuela. I've looked at his Instagram feed and it, man, it is just, it's brutal looking. It makes you so sad. He just, he looks like, man, he's just a fucking gay makeup artist, dude.
- [29:48]
Sam Sanders
Makeup artist trying to live a life. And you know, Tim, you and I, I was a guest on your show where we talked about it. I think the first few days of the news breaking just because of my background of reporting on these incidents. And I love that you were one of the few people in the world really holding space for it. And we are also in D.C. the same week that you are really intentionally to also talk about things that matter to queer people like us in the shadow of the White House, literally, we'll all be right down the street. And even in our last conversation, the Big Beautiful bill has areas where it's specifically attacking trans people. It's ripping away trans healthcare and access to gender affirming care there and doing a ton of other stuff. We've seen HIV funding slash, which is directly going to kill gay men like us in this country because of that. And so for you, you know, doing this event to me, for me feels really symbolic that you're taking up space as a queer man at a time where people are retreating. And do you think that's like a really productive way to live right now under Trump? Should we all be back in the streets marching like we used to? Because I feel like at the beginning of this, people were kind of like, you know, you had Gavin Newsom saying, you know, let's not talk about trans kids, which was really fucked up. I found Bernie as well, in Bernie as well, a lot of people were retreating. However, you yourself are now standing up in D.C. saying, We're not retreating. We're going to take care of these folks.
- [31:00]
Saeed Jones
Yeah, I don't get that, man. I don't get it. I don't get being. Look, if you are a somebody that is here and you're not, you don't have full legal status, whatever reason, right? Whether if you're on a student visa, if you've overstayed a visa, like, you might think you have legal right. If your status is in any way tenuous, I think maybe retreating makes sense, right? Like being careful, being safe, protecting yourself. But if you were like one of us, like, I'm a U. Like people I said this to me, like, aren't you a little scared? I'm not. That's fucking scared. Like, if what I'm going to be the first podcaster they send to El Salvador, okay? Like, we'll see what happens. But, like, I'm a US Citizen, all right? Like, I have resources. Like, if I do get wrongly arrested, there'll be lawyer. There'll be people that will contribute to a GoFundMe to pay some lawyers to defend me or I'll be able to, you know, pay a lawyer. Like, so we. Like a lot. I think that there are a lot of people out there right now that have the privilege to be able to speak up because, you know, and the other thing is, man, this stuff does. Is mattering. I just think. Let's just really quick. In the case of the Venezuelans, these three planes they sent to El Salvador weren't the last planes they were planning on sending exactly. Like, they sent 250 some odd people there, many of at least some of them wrongly, we know for sure. And their plan was to do more. But what happened was there was an outcry over it. There was action. The group of immigrant defenders that were fundraising for and ACLU and others went and stopped them. There's a Supreme Court ruling. People protested. Chris Van Hollen went down there. Had none of that stuff happened, right? Had they just sent people down there and then everybody was like, well, let's focus on the areas where we agree with Trump and not talk about the uncomfortable stuff. There'd be still be people going, right? Like, it isn't what we want, it isn't the progress everybody's hoping for. But, like, it does matter that folks speak out and do something. And I just.
- [32:52]
Zach Stafford
I mean, can I. And can I say two things? I mean, one, you know, if. If they can disappear anybody, they can. And will eventually try to disappear everybody. We've learned that over and over again throughout history. But the second thing is to Pride. I mean, you know, it was a riot, but when we talk about what was happening at Pride, the pushback that came from the people, the gay, trans, non conforming people at that bar were two things. One, the way that cops were breaking into Stonewall to arrest people, but also that they were throwing trans people, trying to throw people like Marsha P. Johnson into the paddy wagons. They were. Part of the outrage was people seeing trans and gender non conforming people being dragged into vans and taken away. And you're like, we don't know what's going to happen once you're away. Like, there is a direct correlation between these ice kidnappings and Stonewall. So I think it's just like really important to people. To people. I mean, one, hey, imagine this. We give a fuck about someone other than ourselves for once. Like, wouldn't that be cool? But, but also, like straight up, like, I just. It, to me, it's not a contradiction. Like, I can, I can dance and throw a Molotov cocktail at the same time if I need to. And I just feel like that's where.
- [34:06]
Tim Miller
The contradiction is with Trump and Republicans, they campaigned for months before the election saying, we're gonna get people who aren't here legally out of the country. And all they've been doing is taking folks who are here legally out of the country. I think it's also a time for Democrats to point out the hypocrisy on top of speaking these people's names, showing up outside those prisons to say, we want to see them and see if they're okay. It's also just, you gotta say, like, this is not what Trump even promised to do. It's just bs. It's hypocritical.
- [34:42]
Saeed Jones
Yeah. And people can't be afraid of it. I think Democrats being afraid of this, this has changed. When it first started, Democratic politicians were scared. The same thing as the trans issue, where they're like, we lost. We can't talk about this. And then all of a sudden, well, I wish I could take credit for it, but it was really Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan eventually spoke out and was like, he's like, I saw this story about the makeup artist that they just took off the street. And I looked at his picture. He looks pretty gay to me. I don't know, he doesn't seem like a gang banger to me, maybe. And then like, I. And then others, some of us started going on TV and being like, if Joe Rogan could talk about this, fucking Team Jeffries can. Okay. Like you can't be scared of this if these guys. Because it's not a political loser. So I don't know, man. I think my thought on pride is that it's back, sheer pride was getting kind of stale, brought by Lockheed Martin. Like the OG pride is kind of back this year. So that's exciting for me. I feel like there is a little bit of whatever protests to it. There is some. What would be the right word? Like, you know, what, you know, going against the grain.
- [35:42]
Zach Stafford
Meaning it's been restored with. Meaning it's kind of like, what are we here for now? I hope people are like, oh, I can think of many reasons why this.
- [35:50]
Tim Miller
Well, and it's funny you mentioned Lockheed Martin being back. In actuality, this pride is going to be marked by a lot of big corporations that used to do pride funding and things. Not doing it because of the whole DEI rollback. I think that's kind of good. Yeah, yeah, I think it's kind of good. You know, I don't need these defense contractors giving me free tequila at the parade. Like, it might be better. It might be better.
- [36:14]
Saeed Jones
That's the word I was looking for. It's subversive again, because. Subversive. Yeah, yeah, yes.
- [36:19]
Zach Stafford
No, that, that, that Blackstone tequila.
- [36:21]
Saeed Jones
I'm kidding. If you don't mind. I was reading Andre's thing. I was going to say this for the fundraiser. I'll read it now with you guys because I think it's important. I was going through all his Instagram, it's in Spanish, and translating them to one at a time. And one of his posts he read this. Always give more than what's expected of you because 80% of success is simply persistence. So don't be afraid of failure, be afraid of not trying. And I feel like that is like really words, what we all should be doing for him.
- [36:51]
Zach Stafford
Yeah, maybe that's, you know, to take it back to because you mentioned Joe Rogan and obviously part of obviously we've been circling is like, how do we broaden, you know, the, the appeal, how do we bring more people? Maybe it's, it is ferocity, so to speak. Like what do you, what do you say? Well, even if your politics are right, if you're speaking in a mealy mouthed way, who are you going to persuade? Say it with your chest. You know, like that's part of what he's saying in that post. It's the tenacity, the persistence and I think you know this kind of nervous, ooh, I don't know. Should I? And like, do you. Do you care about immigrants or not? It's not like, why are you waiting for someone to give you permission to speak proudly about something you say you care about? I think that less than like, who is the. The Joe rogan of the D.A. d.A. Who's the. Basically the white man. We need to orient ourselves. It's like learn to speak the up with integrity. Why are you waiting for permission if it's something you actually.
- [37:48]
Saeed Jones
And about everybody's freedom again, look there. There's some bag of folks that want autocracy, that want us in chain, whatever, you know what I mean? That want gay people to be discriminated against. But like, there are other folks out there that are reachable that you do not have to whatever pander to them. Going back to our topic, but it's just. You're saying, speak with ferocity. Speak clearly and speak for and be. And be about freedom. Like, this is not people. The Joe Rogan types. Most everybody does not want a country where a president can decide because they don't like your tattoo that they can send you to a foreigner. Like, that's. That is a popular position. Being against that. And you just got to be against it clearly in a way that it lands with people. And so that's what we're trying to do.
- [38:34]
Sam Sanders
Well, Tim, I love all that. And before you go, we're going to hold you accountable to something we prepared to ask you. Speaking of ferocity and really saying things with your chest and that is, do you have a pride? Hot take. You want to share with our listeners something you want taken out of pride, something you don't want to see a pride.
- [38:50]
Saeed Jones
This is. I'm glad it took me a second to come up with the word subversive because I want it back. I. I like the whole discourse around pride got so stale and annoying. It was like.
- [39:01]
Zach Stafford
And like sex negative and rude in the worst sense of pride.
- [39:06]
Saeed Jones
And there's enough that we have the Walmart float. It's like I went out with all of that stuff out with the, you know, Abercrombie pride collection and like in with the like weirdest Let your freak flag fly part of our community. Like, in with them more floats.
- [39:25]
Zach Stafford
Love that.
- [39:25]
Saeed Jones
If you want to be a. It's nothing wrong with like just being whatever a polo gay. If you want to wear a polo shirt and you know, take.
- [39:33]
Zach Stafford
But you better have a jockstrap on under that.
- [39:37]
Saeed Jones
I want the whole human Experience. All human experience. Kink at pride. Yes. Lockheed Martin float at pride. No, that's my.
- [39:45]
Sam Sanders
And I. I love that and will accept the stray you gave me without realizing you shot a stray at me. Tim Miller In 2020, I was one of the faces of Abercrombie and Fitch's Pride campaign. So thank you for that.
- [39:58]
Saeed Jones
Oh, that was appreciated in the moment. And you brought a lot of young men.
- [40:01]
Sam Sanders
Oh, girl, we. I was in lockdown. I had a photo shoot in a.
- [40:04]
Saeed Jones
Forest through the little abromb flyer.
- [40:08]
Zach Stafford
That was appreciated in the moment.
- [40:11]
Sam Sanders
That was appreciated.
- [40:14]
Tim Miller
Really good.
- [40:16]
Zach Stafford
Ooh, you New Orleans gays.
- [40:17]
Tim Miller
I'm an outlier. I think those photos were cute. I remember.
- [40:20]
Sam Sanders
Thank you.
- [40:21]
Tim Miller
I'm okay with it.
- [40:22]
Sam Sanders
Thank you for the photos.
- [40:24]
Tim Miller
Baby girl.
- [40:24]
Zach Stafford
Was baby girl light skin gay down?
- [40:28]
Saeed Jones
Light skinned, gay.
- [40:31]
Zach Stafford
Okay. Well, Tim, it is such a joy. I would like imagine a time we could have you on a show to talk about something not disastrous and catastrophic, but.
- [40:42]
Saeed Jones
When are y' all hanging out? Can I be a special guest for a live show?
- [40:46]
Sam Sanders
Oh, my God.
- [40:47]
Tim Miller
That requires an application.
- [40:48]
Zach Stafford
That's true.
- [40:49]
Tim Miller
Hold on now.
- [40:50]
Zach Stafford
That's true. We'll have to, you know, we'll have to get some credentials and everything, but we'll see what we can do. Anyway, we're gonna take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [41:00]
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