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A
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B
All right, we are live. My name is Sam Stein. I'm managing editor at the Bulwark. I am fortunate enough to be joined by Jonathan Cohn, who's author of our Breakdown newsletter and a true treat. Dan diamond of the Washington Post. He came out of leave for this specific night. He came out. He's been, he's been doing great work on the beat at the Post. We're here to talk about what I think may be one of the more potentially consequential evenings in our nation's literal health and certainly at the CDC where we've had what appears to be a mass resignation and a potentially big firing involving RFK Jr. Who heads HHS, and the director of the CDC, who may or may not currently be the director of the cdc. We just don't know. Suzanne Monarres. Dan, I'm going to start with you because you broke the story. Why don't you give us kind of the lay of the land and what happened today so that people who are tuning in might understand.
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C
Well, Sam, what happened today was pretty messy and I think even as we're talking now, some of the things are still in dispute. But Susan Monterez, who had been confirmed as the CDC's director only a month ago and was thought to be kind of a, pardon the choice of word, but a bulwark against RFK Jr. S, we'll take it.
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B
We'll take it.
- [01:31]
C
Against his efforts to potentially overhaul vaccine policy, she was seen as someone who was a more moderate choice than her first pick, an anti vaccine activist named Dave Weldon. She'd only been there a few weeks and words started trickling out today that she was out and it was unclear exactly what had happened. I talked to Trump officials who said they'd heard that she had been insubordinate. My colleagues, Lena Sun, Lauren Weber, had also gotten word that she was being removed. But even as of mid afternoon, it wasn't clear whether she'd been fired, whether she'd resigned. I had a succession of calls in about 10 minutes where I heard all various options. She'd been escorted out of the building. She was writing a resignation letter. She was going to be fired if she didn't leave. But long story short, the head of the cdc, the Trump officials want her gone and made that very clear by putting out a public statement. And that was followed by the resignation of some very senior CDC DC Officials, career officials who have been there for, in some cases, decades. Dan Jernigan, who has helped lead the infectious disease response. Dimitri Daskalakis, who worked on mpox in addition to Covid and other issues. Deb Hori, the chief medical officer. So whether or not Susan Monterez is or is not the CDC director, this whole layer below her is now gone. And officials are saying they are doing it because they are worried about what RFK Jr. Is trying to do to the agency. The fight with Monterey, as we heard at the Post, and I've seen other outlets report, this was largely around vaccine policy.
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B
Right.
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C
And whether she would kowtow to what RFK Jr. Wanted to do.
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B
So, Jonathan, let's assume, I think it's a fair assumption that the catalyzing event here is vaccine policy, as Dan's talking about, lay out what the actual vaccine policy decisions at issue are here.
- [03:22]
A
Yeah, so, I mean, there's a bunch, actually, and there's several pieces to this. They are in the process of revising recommendations for right now. First of all, Covid vaccines, they just came out this week with a new recommendation from the, which came from the Food and Drug Administration, actually. And it gets very confusing because there's recommendations for authorization from FDA. Then CDC's committee makes its own recommendations, but they're in the process, and they've been sort of in the process of revising this, of deciding who should be authorized or recommended to get Covid shots. And there's a big. There's a big dispute. Career scientists at cdc, most of the medical establishment in the United States, believe, for example, pregnant women should be getting it. They think that children, even if they're not high risk, should be getting the shots. Kennedy and his team are pushing back against that. So we have that going on. We have separately some other disputes, debates playing out over some future recommendations about other vaccines. There's ongoing dispute about who, what will be included in liability protection. And some of these decisions are CDC decisions, some are HHS decisions, some involve fda. But CDC is directly or indirectly part, should, would normally be part of most of these discussions. And so there's just a big dividend between the scientists at CDC and rfk.
- [04:50]
B
And just. And briefly just talk about what he did RFK Jr. Did with the advisory committee, which kind of preceded all this stuff.
- [04:57]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So there's this advisory committee which is outside scientists who are brought in on sort of staggered Terms, not historically a political group. It could be controversial, but not a political group per se. And presidents come in and then they sort of appoint new members or they get appointed through hhs, and it's their job to make recommendations over who should get vaccines, what vaccines, and who should get them. Kennedy came in, it would be normal. There'd be some vacancies. Naturally, it would be normal for him to replace, you know, fill the vacancies. But he went beyond that and he basically purged him. He got rid of everybody, said, thank you for your service. You're all gone. He said later he thought they were. They were corrupted by conflicts of interest, which was an unfair charge. But that's a separate story and has brought in new people, almost all of whom are well known for their being skeptics, opponents of vaccination. And frankly, I don't want to paint them with one brush. But you have people who I think is safe to say their views are quite outside the mainstream and are very controversial.
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B
So, Dan, I was. I've been talking to some folks. I'm like, I'm not JV compared to you and Cohen when it comes to reporting on this. I'm like, bit string type down the totem pole.
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C
I don't feel that way. You're always breaking stuff that I'm jealous of.
- [06:17]
B
Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, I'll venmo you guys later. But I was talking to some folks about the leadership structure and the reason that this at the CDC and the reason this hit home for them is that they felt like the people who were there. Dan Journey again, Dimitri. Specifically, the reason they had stuck around for seven months is that they felt like they would stay and try to protect the science, and that it was only when it became clear that they couldn't protect the science or that the science was being manipulated, that they would resign in protest. And so the resignations tonight by those officials really stood out to them as sort of a signature moment where we've crossed some kind of Rubicon. Can you talk a little bit about whether that's what you're picking up within the cdc? That they felt like something happened in which they no longer could protect the science around vaccinations?
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C
You're asking me?
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B
Yes.
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C
Well, let me. Let me offer two caveats.
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A
First.
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C
First, as you alluded to, Sam, I have been on paternity leave. I'm just coming back. Was not planning on doing any TV or anything, like, any big story.
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B
Not TV, baby. It's YouTube.
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C
Well, and thank God for that, because I'm dressed accordingly, but so I haven't been as plugged in the past couple of months. And also we have a wonderful CDC reporter, Lena Son, the Post, who really is like the dean of the beat.
- [07:42]
B
She's the best.
- [07:44]
C
What she says goes. But I will say, yeah, the interpretation that this is a signal event at the cdc, absolutely. Obviously these are people who regardless of administration, had earned the faith and trust of people inside and also outside cdc. Dan Jernigan or someone like Deb Hori, your viewers might remember early in the COVID response it wasn't a political official who sounded the alarm about being scared about COVID It was a career official at CDC who on a teleconference said get ready that things are going to be rough in the coming, coming weeks and months. So career officials at CDC carry a lot of weight in the field and to lose so many in one day, regardless of what happens with Susan Mata, that alone is like a red alert story, but losing also the politically appointed director. And that may or may not happen. According to Susan Monterez and her lawyers, it does feel like a dividing line, potentially a CDC up until this point and beyond.
- [08:47]
B
Talk quickly Dan, about the efforts by Monterey as to or her allies, I should say to salvage things or to at least protect her. I'll just read a little bit because this worth timeline and then after I read the timeline I'm going to pass it to you. So what happens here is all this reporting breaks out that she's out the Department of Health and Human Services Twitter account actually at about 5:35 tweets out that she is no longer the director of Centers for Disease Control Prevention. They thank her for her service, her dedicated service to the American people. They say Secretary Kennedy, that's RFK Jr. Has full confidence in his team at the CDC who will continue to be vigilant in protecting Americans against infectious diseases at home and abroad. Then not even two hours later, Mark Zaid, a well known lawyer in D.C. who represents whistleblowers and government officials. He says he and Abby Lowell, who's another well known lawyer representing a number of people who are suing or in the process of the Trump administration, say they represent Monroe. And contrary to government statements, neither she nor has resigned nor yet been fired. And Mark says she will not resign. I reached out to Mark, I said what's going on here? His response to me is quote, we're waiting to see what the White House wants to do. Our view is that only the president can fire her. As of 8:43. Mark says that still has not happened. So that's where we're at. But prior to all this, as you report, there was an effort to try to, I don't know what you would call it, save her and make sure that she wasn't fired. How would you describe it and tell us what happened?
- [10:20]
C
I think the play by play, probably best to start on Monday when there was a meeting and we get into this in our story at the Washington Post. But there was a meeting between RFK Jr. His aides, Stephanie Spears specifically, and Susan Monorez, where she was pushed. We understand from our sourcing on whether she would agree to make coronavirus vaccine changes. And her response essentially was, I would need, I can't give you a blanket. I will agree to make these changes. I need to talk to my experts. I, I can't. I can't talk in, you know, hypotheticals that I would necessarily and specifically do what the Trump administration wants me to do. That didn't sit well. And some pressure that I think had already been on her in recent weeks quickly ratcheted up. There were conversations with the White House, other officials at hhs. Our understanding is Susan Monterez reached out to Senator Bill Cassidy, who your viewers might recall played a crucial role in confirming RFK Jr. Had. Senator Cassidy, Republican doctor who chairs the Senate's health Committee. If he had said, I'm not going to support RFK Jr. His nomination likely would have died, or it certainly would have been a lot harder to get him in seat. Instead, Bill Cassidy said, you know, I feel comfortable that RFK Jr has made commitments to me. He's going to protect vaccines, he's going to be responsive to me in the Senate. So I will vote to confirm him. Well, here we are, Sam and John, some months later, and there has been moment after moment where it's kind of like, what was Bill Cassidy thinking? Because RFK Jr does thing after thing. That would seem to fly in the face of what he promised to Cassidy. But regardless, Monterey has reached out to Cassidy. Cassidy got involved. Our understanding is that only made RFK Jr. Angrier, accused Monroe as being further insubordinate. She was told not to reach out to senators, other lawmakers, other officials got involved. And the pressure mounted to the point today she was basically told, if you don't resign, we will fire you. There was a question about whether she could be fired, who could do it, could President Trump do it? What would the circumstances be? And I was saying this to you right before we jumped on Sam. There was real confusion about where Susan Was today, like, I had officials texting me saying, do you know where she is? Because we're trying to track her down and get her on the phone.
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B
But do we know where she is?
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C
I was told by somebody, I'm not sure I should say without further confirmation, I think we might have. We have multiple sources that she was in D.C. today, the CDC DC office. But regardless, her lawyers have said she's not gotten word. She's essentially daring the White House to try to fire her and that she is holding herself up as a protector of public health and science and saying, if RFK Jr. And the administration try to fire me, it will be over these grounds of trying to undermine public health.
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B
Con, talk to us about what the scientific community and the people you talk to are worried about right now or what they're thinking right now.
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A
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there's sort of a couple layers. And first, I just say again, the reporting on this was great, Dan and you and your colleagues, just fantastic reporting. You know, there's a couple of layers. So first, this is not the picture of an organization that is well run. Right. Actually, I was talking to Ashish Jha a little earlier and he said there's a sort of question, is this malice or incompetence? Which is, you know, there's a certain, you know, as a Washington writer, you're like, wow, can you believe how kind of disorganized.
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B
They don't know what they're doing.
- [13:43]
A
And this is so backbiting. But, you know, this is our command and control center for public health. This is not a place you want chaos. This is not a place you want vacancy. So there's a. Obviously there's a concern that this critically important agency is now, not only has it been sort of hammered with staff cuts through doge, it's had a reorganization, is losing funds, and now it's got all kinds of leadership vacancies and losing, as Dan was saying, decades of experience, decades of expertise. And whether or not you think they did a good job in Covid or not, that is just not easy to replace. So there's that concern, but then there's the second layer of concern. And again, this is what Dan and you were just talking about, which is if you kind of break down the back and forth what was going on and that conversation that Dan just related to us, if you think about what's going on here, we have Kennedy and whoever from the administration saying, we want you, the director of the cdc, to endorse what we want to do on vaccines and she is saying. She didn't say no exactly. Right. I mean, she said, I am not in a position to do. I'm the director of the cdc. It's my job to represent the science. I need to go to my scientist and come back to you and say this is what they said. I can't give you a yes or no answer without consulting them. And that was not good enough. So this is a very, you know, this is the job of the cdc. I mean, this is a Senate confirmation position, her position. It's an agency created by Congress to. To protect the health of the United States based on science. This is her standing up and saying, that is what I'm going to do. And this is the White House. This is Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert Kennedy saying, no, no, we know what the answer is. We know what we want to do. And if you won't get in line, you're going to lose your job. And that's a very chilling prospect.
- [15:21]
B
Dan, you got to go because you're a new dad and you got new dad responsibilities, which I'm in the baby's room. You are? Yeah. You really need to go. But before you go, I just want to open up for any last thoughts about just maybe for this way. This is obviously not the end of the story. We don't even know if it's the beginning of the end of the story. What are you looking out for in the next hours ahead, Days ahead?
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C
You mean I should tell my competitors the follow up stories we're working on?
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B
No, I just want to know. Yeah, well, sure, why not?
- [15:50]
A
You can text me later.
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B
You don't have to give everybody.
- [15:53]
C
I mean, I think the larger questions are what checks are there on RFK junior At this point? For one Senator Bill Cassidy. Yeah. He claimed that he had some checks on him. This is a perfect case study of. He doesn't. As far as we can tell from our reporting. Like the check on RFK Jr was not to confirm him, but they voted to confirm him and now he has this relatively free hand to make changes. I think that's one. Sorry, someone's calling me. I think Junior. I don't know if you guys can hear my phone ringing.
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B
No, no, we can't. It's fine.
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A
It's fine.
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C
A second question would be what is the public health of the nation going to look like in a world where some of these officials aren't in seat and where RFK Jr is installing more allies? And I really do have to go. I think I've got to take this call.
- [16:45]
B
All right, Dan, thank you so much, man. Really appreciate it. Con. Let's pick up on that, because it does seem like there aren't really any checks, and it doesn't seem like Trump, actually, Trump himself, which would in theory be the check, the remaining check here. It doesn't seem like he is inclined necessarily to get involved in this stuff. He's basically turned it over to Kennedy and let him run. Run rough shot over it. Are you surprised at how much leeway Kennedy's been given here?
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A
I'm a little bit surprised, and I want to emphasize. A little bit surprised. I'm a little bit surprised because I think politically this is not that solid ground for them. I mean, Kennedy stuff plays really well with his supporters and parts of the MAGA base. But, you know, most people believe in vaccination. Most people don't like to hear, you know, that. You know, that the c. No, even if they are skeptical of the cdc, they don't like to hear that the agency that's guarding their health is being gutted.
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B
So this is.
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A
I think they feel. They can feel a little bit of the heat on this. So, you know, they're. It surprises me, given that, you know, they're politically. They're politically sensitive enough that that might.
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B
That's what I was sort of wondering. Right. It's like at some point, people want, I mean, want access to medications that. They think.
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A
They do. They do. They do. The flip side, Right. Yeah, you would think. I mean, the flip side is, number one, Trump has always been sort of on, let's say, endorsing some of the sort of, you know, there you go. That's the phrase. Anti vax. Curious. I think there's the part of him that likes sort of being controversial. And, you know, look, let's face it, I think one of the checks on this. When you were saying Trump is a check, I mean, Trump, the president's supposed to be a check in part because we have a sort of basic notion, whatever your politics are, that the President of the United States is someone who's responsible, is going to take big, serious decisions seriously and try to weigh the evidence they might be right or wrong or whatever. And. And this. That's just not what he does. I mean, has he, you know, he doesn't read briefing papers? He doesn't, you know, spend any time thinking about these.
- [18:45]
B
It's also not. It's also. He also has like, three or four things that he is interested in. Tariffs, interior decorating, you know, like, things like that in this case redistricting. Right now I don't think he really cares about the details around health policy. He's willing to pun off I want to read a little bit from Dimitri Daskalakis resignation letter. He posted it on Twitter and and I apologize for the viewers in advance because I'm going to read actually a fair chunk the reason I'm going to read it. He wrote it to Dr. Howard as you can see there is because I, I don't think I've ever seen a resignation letter like this. It is, it's, it's chilling, it's honest, it's scary. I'm just going to read parts he writes. I've never experienced such radical non transparency nor have I seen such unskilled manipulation of data to achieve a political end rather than the good of the American people. We're seven months into the administration and no CDC subject matter expert from my center has ever briefed the secretary. That's RFK Jr. He notes that Kennedy at his hearing said that Americans should not take medical advice from him. To the contrary and appropriately briefed, an inquisitive secretary should be a source of health information for the people he serves. As it stands now, I must agree with him that he should not be considered a source of accurate information. He goes on, the intentional eroding of trust in low risk vaccines favoring natural infection and unproven remedies will bring us to a pre vaccine era where only the strong will survive and many if not all will suffer. And then there's the last thing that I want to talk about, which I think we haven't touched on yet, but I think is actually a fairly big deal. He's referencing the recent CDC, the shooting at the CDC headquarters in Atlanta. If people don't remember this, over 500 rounds were shot at the CDC headquarters on August 8th by a gunman who only killed, thank God, one person, an officer. But he had multiple multiple windows at the CDC headquarters and he was targeting public health officials according to authorities because he believed that the COVID vaccine was dangerous. So he was crazy. Dimitri writes, the recent shooting at CDC is not why I'm resigning. My grandfather, who I am named after, stood up to fascist forces in Greece and lost his life doing so. I'm resigning to make him and his legacy proud. I'm resigning because of the cowardice of a leader that cannot admit that his and his minions words over decades created an environment where violence like this can occur. I reject his and his colleagues thoughts and prayers and advise they direct those to people that they have not actively harmed the nation's health. Security is at risk and is in the hands of people focusing on ideological self interest. I will, I'll stop there. I've never seen anything quite like that in a resignation letter, at least from someone that high up and that important to an agency. And it was shocking to read.
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A
Yeah, it's a remarkable letter and for people watching, listening, just to give you a little background on where it, who it's coming from. Daskalaskas this is somebody with, you know, experience going back to years he spent in the New York City Department of Health, very well regarded for his efforts on tuberculosis, on monkeypox, on hiv. Someone with just reams of, of knowledge, years of experience, came to cdc, just incredibly well regarded. This is not somebody, you know, given to sort of, you know, idle speculation. So for him and someone who as he said, is given, you know, like most of the people at cdc, you know, if you have the skill set to be a leader at cdc, you could be making, you know, a ton of money in the private sector and he didn't. He's here at CDC serving the public as a career public servant. So you know, somebody who, you know, for him to leave this, you know, and why did he stay this long? Because he thought like you were saying before, he thought he could fight the good fight from within and you know, he wanted to do it. There was all kinds of, I mean I, you know, the reporting in Dan's story in the Times, things we are hearing make it clear he was fighting hard inside for the science. And he references that in his letter and you know, that part in the letter where he mentions, you know, that there were recommendations going out that were never, no one ever asked CDC scientists for input. I mean that is just mind blowing and I think entirely consistent with the story that is emerging that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who despite saying you shouldn't trust me because I'm not a doctor, nevertheless has made up his mind, has his ideas about vaccines and he is going to get his way. And he is.
- [23:42]
B
Well that's the irony, right? It's like he, Kennedy Jr. Has always attacked people for being so rigid and non open minded about science. His whole life thing as well. You always have to question science. You always have to question science. And yet here's a man who never has questioned his own preconceived notions, his own anti scientific notions. He's not open to alternate viewpoints. He doesn't talk to people who challenge him. He in fact wants to impart his worldview on everyone else. And this letter from Dimitri is just, I thought that was the most chilling part. The fact that he spent seven months working and never once got a chance to talk to RFK junior About the science. The person who I talked to that I referenced earlier said this. I cannot emphasize how bad it must be for these resignations to happen. I've not talked to, I'm blacking at this person's name because they don't affiliate entity for a few months. But I know where his head was at. He was going to stay to protect science until he was asked to do something that could hurt people. The implication being he was asked to do something that could hurt people also. Dan diamond, who left us, has now tweeted and flagged for me, quote, hearing from that the White House has formally fired Monrez per two administration sources. Monroe's lawyers had said earlier she had neither resigned nor been fired. I reached out to Mark Zaid to confirm that. I have not heard back from Mark. Where does this leave us? I mean, how do they fill this? How do they fill these positions? I assume they have people who agree with them on all sorts of stuff that they can pluck, but I mean, where does this leave us?
- [25:16]
A
Well, that's exactly it. No scientist with any kind of integrity, with any kind of who believes independent thinking is going to want this job.
- [25:25]
B
Right?
- [25:25]
A
I mean, who. Why would you want that? Because, I mean, it's been, the message has gone out. You're not there to provide input. You're not there to tell us what you think, what you think the evidence reads. You are there to rubber stamp what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Wants. And by the way, what he wants is something that most really all, I would say, nearly all mainstream scientists reject. So who are they going to get for these positions? They're not going to be, let's just say they're not going to be getting the best people. And so again, I just want to, you know, let's go back to what CDC does. This is our front line against disease, against, you know, for public health. And, and we're just, we're, we're, you know, we're going to leave these posts either empty or filled with people who don't have the expertise, don't have the knowledge, and have some pretty out of this world views on what public health is. And you know, this is, this is all of our health. This is all of us, you know.
- [26:22]
B
Yeah, that's the thing. It's not a game. We have a measles outbreak in Texas. We have Flu season coming up. We have, you know, the needs for Covid boosters. Coming up, this COVID vaccine, COVID virus is not gone. The New York Times piece reason that it's, it's here. I mean, what are we, what are the expectations around like future moves from Kennedy? Obviously everyone's kind of looking at the pediatric vaccine schedule and if he tinkers with that. But what do we have coming up that we should be watching out for?
- [26:51]
A
Yeah, well, we have that. We potentially have a looming decision. You know, we've referenced a little bit before on this sort of vaccine liability program, which is this.
- [26:59]
B
I'll talk a little bit about that because it's a really good newsletter you wrote.
- [27:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. So vaccines, you know, going. Are protected, if. Are protected, are protected against lawsuits through a sort of traditional no fault system where basically if you think you've been injured by a vaccine and you can demonstrate that you have the injury, there's a payout. This system was created in the 1980s because we were getting shortages of vaccines because there were lawsuits against manufacturers. And a lot of these lawsuits, frankly, they were pretty tenuous. The cases, you know, the people said that, you know, these horrible things happened to people who got shots, but it wasn't clear and in fact, frequently was not because of the shots. And the manufacturers, like, look, we're losing too much money on these. We're not going to make vaccines. So they created this system where basically you can get a payout, you can get compensated for your injury, so you can pay your medical bills and in exchange the vaccine manufacturers don't have to worry about getting these lawsuits. And that's basically stabilized the vaccine.
- [28:00]
B
And he can just change and RFK Jr can just change that. Just say, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna make them liable to any lawsuit out there. If someone thinks they've been injured by vaccine, suddenly they can sue the vaccine manufacturer and they'll have to pay.
- [28:13]
A
So for most of the vaccines that are occurring, protection like the mumps measles vaccine, the MMR vaccines like that, the dt, the dtap, he could change it. You have to do it through the regulatory process, assuming they want to follow the normal procedures, which, you know, can take a few months, but they, they, you know, they could do it through the regulatory process for Covid shots specifically because for reasons that have to do with it being a public health emergency, because they're, they're actually under a different liability shield. It kind of works the same way, but it's a different program. And that one Kennedy can just sign a piece of paper that does not have to go through the whole regulatory process. So he can just release a letter tomorrow or next week or next month and say that the COVID vaccines are no longer covered under this liability shield. And I will say, I was talking to someone about this day, and it's quite possible it would be done in a slightly roundabout legal way, that it wouldn't sound quite like that's what he was doing, but it would have the same effect. And if that happened, you know, you gotta wonder, you're moderna, you're Pfizer. Are you gonna even bother selling these vaccines here? Because now you're gonna be exposed. Everyone's gonna think they, you know, all these lawsuits and they're gonna go to court.
- [29:23]
B
In your piece, you talked about how this existed in the 80s and they had to fix it. What was going on in the 80s?
- [29:29]
A
Yeah. So in the 80s, there was an older version of the pertussis vaccine. Pertussis, whooping cough, if you know what that is, which used to kill thousands of Americans every year they introduced the vaccine. Very painful. You basically. You can, you know, you. You basically asphyxiate. That's how you die. Used to kill thousands of children every year. We introduced the vaccine, brought that down to, like, less than 10 a year. But there were side effects from it. There were known side effects. Most vaccines have some side effects, some worse than others. It's, you know, like any medicine, it can have side effects. It's true of almost, you know, pretty much any medical intervention. There were some stories suggesting some really catastrophic harms, brain damage, even some deaths. Later research suggested that probably was not the case. But those lawsuits, those were the lawsuits that people started bringing against the manufacturers. And basically all the companies that were making this vaccine were like, you know what? We're not making a lot of money. We might be losing money on these. We can make a lot more money. In other words, we're out. And we had a situation where the shortage of pertussis vaccines, and it was actually pediatricians, among others, leading the charge to change and saying, like, we need these vaccines because we know, as pediatricians, we know what it looks like.
- [30:44]
B
Well, that sort of. That brings me to this. Yeah, that brings me to sort of. I guess we can kind of close around here on this topic. But who. We talked about checks, and I'll reveal who said it in our slack. But our colleague Bill Kristol thinks that Trump will eventually real in Kennedy because, as he argues, it's. There's not Much political, domestic political advantage here, he believes. And I kind of agree with that. But I, like I said, I don't really know if Trump gives a shit, to be honest. But there are other. I don't want to overstate the significance of them because I think whatever. But the other places that can push back are one, doctors, pediatricians, for instance, can push back, but they have to be organized. They'd have to be willing to endure pushback from the administration. There's risks involved, but they can. And patients obviously can do the same, and moms who are worried about their kids and things like that. And I guess the other thing I want to just not totally dismiss is the Hill. And it's possible that Cassidy finally gets a little spine and says, you know what, we do need to actually hold the hearing on this and call RFK Jr. In front of it and already have Bernie Sanders, who is the ranking member on the committee, say we need to. Or I think he is a ranking member. It might not be, but he wants a hearing involving Kennedy about what's going on here with the cdc. And then you have Senator Patty Murray, who I believe actually is the ranking member who called for RFK Jr tonight to be fired over what happened here and praised, praised Monroe for standing up. So, I don't know, maybe I'm being a little bit optimistic that there can be some pushback. I certainly don't think it's going to be successful. But am I too optimistic? Here is this. It does seem like people will be very upset if they can't get access to vaccines for their kids or for themselves.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you know, I'm Mr. Optimist. I'm always. You are, I am.
- [32:47]
B
I'm gonna be freaked out.
- [32:49]
A
So part of me is inclined to say yes. People will, you know, this, this, you know, it's hard to know nowadays what will breakthrough. There's so much going on every day. And will this, you know, pass in a day or two with the Cracker barrel logo? John? Yeah, right. I'm so glad I missed that news cycle. I was writing my newsletter. I completely missed that news cycle. Brain cells saved. And, you know, this is the kind of thing that shows up, right? I mean, there are gonna be people, you know, we hear so much about people who don't like the COVID vaccine, we forget there's a lot of people who want the COVID vaccine. You know, a lot of people are like, please, I don't wanna get Covid, and if I get it, I don't want it. To be severe, I don't wanna go in the hospital. I wanna maybe die. And so if it becomes unavailable or less available, I think people are going to notice that and that will sort of kick something up. And you can imagine, you know, people on the Hill reacting. So. Yes, I can imagine that there is. On the other hand, I do feel a little, there's a little Lucy in the football going here, you know, especially with Cassidy. You know, we kept, you know, Cassidy had so many chances, he kind of stepped right up and it really was, it was loot, you know, oh, no, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And no. And, you know, who knows? But you would think, I would like to think when people, you know, doctors, and you were mentioning doctors being organized and there is a lot, some efforts going on. I think there's something called the Vaccine Integrity Project. They're putting out their own guidelines. The pediatricians had a really strong statement a week or two ago about code. And actually Kennedy like fired back with his own tweet.
- [34:14]
B
Yeah, Kenny was pissed at them, right?
- [34:15]
A
He was super pissed. I am a big, I've always been a big believer though, that the most important persuasion that takes place is in small, you know, one on one, you know, small communication. And I think, you know, people when they start hearing these things from their own doctor and I think, you know, I mean, look, I know, I'm sure you do too. I mean, I'm from both my work and the social circles. I know lots of people who are, who are doctors and have been upset about this for a while. But the reality is, like everyone else in America who's not in our business, like you and me, they got other stuff going on and it's just, you know, at the end of the day, they're just, they, they're busy doing what they do, you know, you're not.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah, but when, yeah, this, this one.
- [34:57]
A
I think, you know, I would not be surprised. And frankly, I hope doctors will be telling their patients or if they're asked by their patients, they will say, look, I think this is, this is wrong. This is what I believe. They don't even, they don't need to be political about to say, I'm a, you know, I went to medical school. This is what I've learned. And I hope, personally, I really do hope that maybe, you know, remind people what the other side is. You know, this is, you know, the vaccine conversation. Whenever you see Kennedy or any of these people talk about it, it's like there are these Side effects, and they're exaggerating, and a lot of them are unreal and they're not there. They never talk about the other side is. Is like, you ever seen a kid, you know, wheezing and suffocating and can't get breath because of whooping cough. Whooping. You know, have you ever, you know, if you looked at, you know, kid who tried to deal with someone who has the measles or seen someone, it's.
- [35:43]
B
Just remarkable to me. Right? It's like, we are not that far removed from COVID We are not.
- [35:48]
A
Right, right, right.
- [35:49]
B
We are not that far removed from Operation Warp Speed, which was Trump's triumph. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:54]
A
Which, by the way, that's the other piece of this. I do think that that's the other thing he. You remember. I can't remember if this is when you were out, but, like, they asked him about Kennedy issuing, you know, because this is when he pulled all the money for the MRNA vaccines. And they asked Trump at a White House, and he was kind of surprised. And I think the backstory here was kind of fuzzy, but, like, there wasn't great community again. On top of everything else, you're just. This is not the pro team when it comes to running a government agency, and there's not a lot of great communication going back and forth. And he's, you know, I mean, he's kind of gone anti vax curious or whatever. But he does like to take credit for Warp Speed, as he should. I mean, that was a really successful program. So maybe that's a reason, and maybe that's another reason to have some. Some optimism.
- [36:40]
B
I don't know, man. It's a bleak night. We're going to leave it there. I will say this is when the story started breaking and I'm gonna reveal it with Dan diamond has now texted me. He actually was at the dentist when he heard about the story and confirmed it while he's getting his teeth worked on, he was going to tell that story in the live stream. But we can get to it. When this started breaking, I started hearing about it not through Dan, but through a source of my own. It seemed surreal because it's worth noting, Monos was only there for a couple weeks and then less than a month. And then it became, like, very much, not more than surreal. It became a real panic when you saw that there was actually four, five top officials who are now stepping down. Real people with integrity and leadership and scientific knowledge and institutional. They're just gone. And we are in an incredibly uncharted very dark place when it comes to our nation's health and it's scary. Jonathan thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. I look forward to seeing what else you can unearth around the reporting around this. And for those who jumped on with us tonight for this live stream, thank you for doing this. Been wanting to do more of these. Usually we wait to some big event to happen. Unfortunately in this case it's a really bad event. But we are here to walk you through it. Leave comments about how we can improve this experience and we'll talk to you soon. Take care guys.
- [38:03]
A
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