Bulwark Takes Podcast: BREAKING – CDC in Turmoil, Mass Resignations Under RFK

Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Sam Stein (Bulwark)
Guests: Jonathan Cohn (Bulwark) & Dan Diamond (Washington Post)

Episode Overview

This urgent Bulwark Takes live episode dives into a historic and chaotic evening at the CDC, triggered by mass resignations among top CDC career officials and the tumultuous firing (or forced resignation) of CDC Director Susan Monterez. The panel explores what led to this crisis, the underlying conflict over vaccine policy under HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and the troubling implications for U.S. public health.

Key Discussion Points

1. What Happened at the CDC Today?

• Dan Diamond (who broke the story) lays out the rapidly developing situation:
  • CDC Director Susan Monterez, seen as a moderate and a defense against RFK Jr.’s anti-vaccine agenda, is apparently out—whether by firing or resignation—just a few weeks after confirmation.
    • “Words started trickling out today that she was out and it was unclear exactly what had happened.” (01:31, Dan Diamond)
  • A wave of senior resignations follows, including respected officials: Dan Jernigan, Dimitri Daskalakis, and Deb Hori.
    • “Whether or not Susan Monterez is or is not the CDC director, this whole layer below her is now gone.” (02:45)
• The root issue: escalating conflict over vaccine policy and RFK Jr.’s aim to reshape CDC’s direction.

2. The Vaccine Policy Schism

• Jonathan Cohn explains the core disputes:
  • CDC and U.S. medical establishment favor broad vaccine recommendations (for pregnant women, children, etc.), while Kennedy’s team wants to restrict and question them.
  • Kennedy also purged the CDC’s traditional vaccine advisory committee, replacing experts with vaccine skeptics.
    • “[He] got rid of everybody, said, thank you for your service. You’re all gone… brought in new people, almost all of whom are well known for being skeptics, opponents of vaccination.” (05:00, Jonathan Cohn)
• This reshaping is viewed as purging mainstream scientific input in favor of ideologically driven perspectives.

3. The Importance—and Tragedy—of the CDC Career Staff Resignations

• These officials stayed on in hopes of “protecting the science,” but left when it became clear they couldn’t counteract manipulation.
  • “They felt like they would stay and try to protect the science, and that it was only when it became clear that they couldn’t… that they would resign in protest.” (06:17, Sam Stein)
• Dan Diamond: “To lose so many [career officials] in one day, regardless of what happens with Susan Monterez, that alone is like a red alert story.” (08:27)
• The CDC is now (arguably) leaderless at the pivotal moment heading into flu season and amid recent outbreaks.

4. The Political Drama: Was Monterez Fired or Not?

• Chaotic, contradictory communications:
  • HHS announces Monterez is out; minutes later, her lawyers insist she has neither resigned nor been fired, and will not resign until fired by the President.
• Backstory: Monterez resisted pressure to unilaterally alter vaccine guidance per RFK Jr.’s wishes, insisting she’d consult CDC experts. This triggered a campaign to oust her that involved both the White House and Senator Bill Cassidy (R-LA), who had sponsored both Kennedy and Monterez during confirmation.
  • “Our understanding is Susan Monterez reached out to Senator Bill Cassidy… that only made RFK Jr. angrier, accused Monterez of being further insubordinate.” (11:52, Dan Diamond)

5. The Chilling Resignation Letter from Dimitri Daskalakis

• Sam Stein reads highlights to underscore institutional collapse and the sense of crisis:

  “I’ve never experienced such radical non-transparency nor seen such unskilled manipulation of data to achieve a political end rather than the good of the American people…”
  “We’re seven months into the administration and no CDC subject matter expert from my center has ever briefed the secretary [RFK Jr.].”
  “The intentional eroding of trust in low risk vaccines… will bring us to a pre-vaccine era where only the strong will survive and many if not all will suffer.” (20:00–21:30, Daskalakis’s letter; read by Sam Stein)

• Makes explicit the internal assessment: science is no longer guiding U.S. health agency policy.

6. Implications for the Public and the Future of the CDC

• Both panelists stress:
  • Qualified, independent scientists are unlikely to accept top CDC roles in this climate.
    • “No scientist with any kind of integrity… is going to want this job.” (25:16, Jonathan Cohn)
  • There is widespread fear among the scientific community about the process and real-world health impacts—especially with flu season, ongoing COVID variants, and outbreaks like measles in Texas looming.

7. Looming Threats: Vaccine Liability Protections

• RFK Jr. can, without much procedural delay, end liability protections for COVID vaccines, opening up manufacturers to lawsuits and threatening U.S. supply.
  • “He can just release a letter tomorrow… and say that the COVID vaccines are no longer covered under this liability shield…” (28:13)
• Historically, removal of liability protections led to shortages and endangered vaccine supply in the ’80s.

8. Who Can Push Back? Checks and Balances

• Immediate checks are weak:
  • Congress could (in theory) demand hearings (Senator Patty Murray already called for Kennedy’s firing), but the administration seems emboldened.
  • Physicians, the AAP, and parent groups may protest, and the Vaccine Integrity Project is providing alternate scientific guidelines.
  • Bill Kristol (Bulwark): Trump may eventually rein in Kennedy on pragmatic political grounds, but panelists are skeptical.
  • Despite political polarization, public demand for vaccines and reliable health guidance remains high (“most people believe in vaccination… want access to medications…”).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Regardless of what happens with Susan Monterez … losing also the politically appointed director. And that may or may not happen. According to Susan Monterez and her lawyers, it does feel like a dividing line, potentially a CDC up until this point and beyond.”
  — Dan Diamond (08:41)

• “This is not a place you want chaos. This is not a place you want vacancy… this is our command and control center for public health.”
  — Jonathan Cohn (13:42)

• “No scientist with any kind of integrity, with any kind of who believes independent thinking is going to want this job.”
  — Jonathan Cohn (25:16)

• On liability: “For Covid shots specifically… Kennedy can just sign a piece of paper … and say that the COVID vaccines are no longer covered under this liability shield.”
  — Jonathan Cohn (28:13)

• Daskalakis’s resignation letter:

  “I reject his and his colleagues’ thoughts and prayers and advise they direct those to people that they have not actively harmed. The nation's health security is at risk and in the hands of people focusing on ideological self-interest.”
  (20:00–21:30, read by Stein)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment / Topic | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:15–02:45 | Breaking news: Monterez out, mass CDC resignations, Dan Diamond’s breaking report | | 03:03–05:00 | The core vaccine policy dispute, Kennedy’s takeover of advisory committee | | 06:17–08:41 | Why career CDC officials resigned; crossing the Rubicon in protecting science | | 10:20–12:36 | Timeline: Pressure campaign to fire Monterez; role of Bill Cassidy and administration | | 13:17–15:21 | What the scientific/medical community fears now; “malice or incompetence?” | | 18:45–21:30 | Daskalakis’s resignation letter and the attack on CDC (shooting in Atlanta) | | 25:16–28:13 | Why “no scientist with any integrity” will take leadership jobs now; pipeline threats | | 28:13–30:44 | The vaccine injury compensation program and liability risks under Kennedy | | 32:41–34:53 | Can Congress, doctors, or public pressure provide a check? Optimism vs. realism |

Insights & Takeaways

• The CDC faces an unprecedented leadership vacuum, with mass resignations among its most experienced, respected officials.
• Vaccine recommendations are now being shaped (or overridden) by an HHS Secretary whose stances are fundamentally at odds with mainstream science. The pipeline for policy input has been gutted.
• The political process, including ostensible checks in Congress, has thus far failed to hold back this transformation.
• The expert consensus is that this chaos and politicization will hurt public health—including during imminent crises like flu season or new COVID variants.

Tone

The conversation is urgent, serious, and at moments bleak—panelists voice real concern for U.S. health institutions and public safety. There is a note of alarm and mourning for the demise of a critical agency, but also a call for civic response and resistance where possible.

For listeners: This episode is a vital primer on one of the most significant public health and political crises in recent U.S. history. It provides background, insider reporting, and expert analysis on the stakes for vaccine policy, disease prevention, and scientific integrity within the federal government.