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- [00:00]
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- [00:15]
Tim Miller
Hey, everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark, here with managing editor Sam Stein and Joe Perdicone. Our man on Capitol Hill, Elon Musk has dropped a nuclear bomb on the big beautiful bill. That big beautiful turd. It is a just a straight attack. Not, you know, he did kind of the passive aggressive attack that Sam and I talked about yesterday on CBS Sunday Morning. You know, I was like disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not just decrease it and undermines the work that the Doge team is doing. We kind of saw this coming. The Trump must break up. But Musk, who knows what could be behind this. The fact that he's so erratic. Possibly something in a pillbox, but I don't know. He's so erotic. It has broken out into public view. A full frontal attack on the bbb. Let me read the tweets and I'll get your guys responses. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. A little melodramatic.
- [01:12]
Sam Stein
So dramatic.
- [01:14]
Tim Miller
This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. You know it. He followed that up. He, quote, tweeted himself that was not enough. He said it will massively increase the already gigantic budget deficit to 2.5 trillion. Exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. And burden American citizens with crushingly unsustainable debt. There is Elon. Sam, what do you make of it?
- [01:44]
Sam Stein
Well, I mean, I think you, again, you, you ask the really important questions as you always do, because you're so gifted at this, which is what was in the pillbox? We don't know what was in the pillbox. That could explain a lot of this. Assuming that it was just, you know, simple ketamine and not anything more than that. I, it's, it is odd, I have to say. Like he, he could have said this at any point in time. He has kind of hinted at that he hates this bill or at least was opposed to it. And so I guess, yeah, he's left the administration now. He feels like he can, you know, let it out. And maybe he is a little bit aggrieved at how they didn't like, you know, codified Doge or something like that. I'm kind of curious if that's part of it because then you have Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, who was in a press briefing, was like, I spoke to Elon for 20 minutes on the phone yesterday. Like, he has it all wrong.
- [02:33]
Joe Perdicone
And with all due respect, my friend Elon is terribly wrong about the one big beautiful bill. We had a long conversation yesterday. He and I spoke. Spoke for, I think, more than 20 minutes on the telephone. And I extoled all the virtues of the bill. And he seemed to understand that we had a very friendly conversation about it.
- [02:50]
Sam Stein
I will say, and you and Joe can speak this better than me because I was never of this ilk. But, like, it does seem to be following kind of a common path for the fiscal conservatives who get upset at, like, seeing their party abandon all the virtues that they held dear. And he just seems to be like, to 10 years behind the curve.
- [03:09]
Tim Miller
I'm saying he doesn't sound much different than Alan Simpson. I don't know, maybe that's true, Joe.
- [03:14]
Sam Stein
Alan Simpson, Todd Massey, you know, Rand Paul, they all get disappointed.
- [03:19]
Tim Miller
Paul Ryan, Joe, what are folks saying on the Hill? You've talked to some senators, I hear.
- [03:23]
Elon Musk
So Elon sent this tweet out in the middle of the Senate Republicans lunch that they do every day or every couple times a week. So I was told by Ron Johnson that they were passing phones around, showing it to each other, and they were.
- [03:38]
Sam Stein
Like, oh, shit, they don't have their own phones. They couldn't just look at it.
- [03:42]
Elon Musk
I think some of them are. Some of them are a little quicker on the draw. I do know there's a few. There's a few flip phones still in it. Yeah, but they were passing it around and then they came out and a lot of them were no comments. Like, even Tuberville was a no comment. But, you know, Ron Johnson was like, look, you know, he's right, but we, it's up to us. Like, this is our thing. But he kind of said like, yeah, he's right, this is a bad thing. But Johnson's kind of the one opposed. John Thune's reaction was extremely funny because he was just like, yeah, like once he learns more about this bill and learns more about the process, then I think he's going to come around like all of us. And then I had a lobbyist text me that, basically, like, the argument that Elon's making, though, is the same like, like he's appealing to the Freedom Caucus with this argument. First of all, they've already voted. Second, their true boss is Trump. It's not Elon. So the idea that it will move things in any way. It's not happening. But it was a headache for them.
- [04:44]
Sam Stein
Joe, does it not give them a little bit of. I mean, so it has to go back to the House eventually because the sense can change it. Does it not give them cover to like, you know, throw more hissy fits than they did?
- [04:53]
Elon Musk
Oh, yeah, like, they'll, they'll get to complain and do more of that, but, like, they're gonna.
- [04:58]
Tim Miller
Anyway, I think you already voted for it.
- [05:01]
Sam Stein
Yeah, yeah. That's the funny part, is that he said this thing was a big turd and you voted for it. Shame on you.
- [05:07]
Elon Musk
Yeah. And he, he was a little uneasy about it beforehand. But it's like the time to do this because, like, the Senate's gonna figure things out on their own. But, like, the time to do this was before the House voted on it.
- [05:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Joe, I have a couple questions for you. The first one I asked Catherine Rampel this morning and, and neither of us really could come up with a satisfactory answer, which is who really likes this bill? Like, when you talk on the Hill, I understand in the Senate right now there's a group that has concern about the Medicaid portion and the cuts. That's basically Holly Collins Murkowski. There's the Rand Paul and Ron Johnson group that is concerned about the debt, who, who is like, really the champion, who's excited about it.
- [05:55]
Elon Musk
So if you looked at like the Tax Cuts and Jobs act from the first Trump term, the people who liked it was Paul Ryan because it cut the corporate tax rate, and that was it.
- [06:05]
Tim Miller
Joe, we are so aligned. This is what I said this morning on the pod, but keep going.
- [06:09]
Elon Musk
This time around, they're just kind of like doing the Paul Ryan thing. They're like, we're going to get these wealthy tax cuts and we're going to do anything to accomplish it. And no one, like everyone hates or is like, tolerating certain things. So, like, they've all decided that they'll tolerate, like, work requirements for Medicaid. They've all decided they're going to tolerate, like, the cuts to Medicaid. But beyond that, there's really no yeah. Like, there's no yeah. Beyond that. There's nobody, there's nobody that like, is all gung ho about this thing other than leadership. And that's because they're receiving.
- [06:44]
Sam Stein
The White House aren't like, super. Aren't super wealthy American super gung ho. They want the tax rates to stay low.
- [06:49]
Elon Musk
David Sachs is really psyched about it.
- [06:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah, not really. Actually, I was Listening to All in and David Sachs, like kept having to apologize for it. Basically a lot of the. Sure. A lot of wealthy, wealthy, salaried Americans are really excited about it because corporations.
- [07:05]
Sam Stein
Not all corporations like it because it gets rid of those tax credits. So that's not across the board. I'm sure the chamber is kind of muted on this and some really rich.
- [07:13]
Tim Miller
People are concerned about the markets like the bond market and stock market reaction to this. So I mean look, salaried rich people, it's good for it, honestly feels like an inertia type thing. And that's why I do that. It's going through. Cause they just got to do something. They can't do nothing. And, and, and like, and so this is where I do wonder. I kind of wish if Elon had called me, I'd have been like, Elon, really? You need to lean in to some of the other elements of the bill besides the debt. I don't know that you can get enough people on the debt. But like I think if you leaned into impact on interest rates, cuts, Medicaid, like I think there are some gettable Republicans maybe or maybe not. I don't know. I guess my problem is there are four. So, so let's do the math. Joe Collins and Murkowski are no. Let's just say they might come around. But let's just for the exercise, Rand holds solid and is no because of the debt. One other person has to be no. Is that Ron Johnson? You get him on debt. Like who else could you get to kill? Who else would have the balls to kill the bill? Hard to imagine. Holly.
- [08:13]
Elon Musk
No, Holly, he's not. He'll come around. But I, I think they're Ron Johnson and it, it, it's a matter of not will Ron Johnson hold firm. It's a matter of is he going to run for reelection or not. That's what it's about.
- [08:27]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [08:27]
Elon Musk
Which he's way doing again.
- [08:29]
Sam Stein
I think Joanie Ernst will have a moment where she contemplates saying no and then, then you know, announces that well, we're all going to die.
- [08:37]
Tim Miller
Well, we all are going to die, for heaven sakes.
- [08:42]
Sam Stein
So might as well.
- [08:42]
Tim Miller
But yeah, there could have been some more effective hits on the bill for Elon. I just like as a deficit hawk, I'm thrilled. We keep picking up new fans every day now. Like we were out in the wilderness for years. The deficit hawks and all of a sudden some Democrats are coming on the pod talking about the deficit. Elon's talking about it. Ron Johnson we're getting close to a bipartisan coalition here, but I don't think that it's the most salient thing for Elon to do to kill the bill, I guess.
- [09:08]
Sam Stein
Tim, Tim, you asked me the question, but I want to pose it to you. What do you think Elon's endgame is here? Like, why is he doing this?
- [09:13]
Tim Miller
I think Elon's just fucking pissed. I think he's just. Elon is 50% boy like that. Would you hate to hand it to Trump? But he was right. Like, Elon is lashing out. He didn't get everything that he wanted. And I think so. I think there's a combination of things happening. One, the Doge cuts aren't codified. So he wanted that for his own ego really more than he cares about the actual policy. Two, if you just. I hate to use these fuckers as a Rosetta Stone, but if you listen to those all in boys who are his friends. I listened to their whole podcast on bbb and like, they are really concerned about a couple of things. One, like the debt impact on interest rates and like, how interest is going to stay really high and how that's going to be a very big problem for investment, et cetera, et cetera. Then they also have some, like, random issues with various things that have been cut that they like, like little cut, you know, credits for various things. There's a cut of funding in nuclear, so I think that is like, buddies are in his ears on some like, random niche things that they don't like. Plus also the interest rate. Big picture, the Doge cuts aren't codified and he got pushed out and people aren't being nice enough to him and who knows what is what his regimen.
- [10:28]
Sam Stein
Do these guys in. In your. When you listen to, do they ever consider maybe like, not keeping tax rates super low for like the top 1% or.
- [10:38]
Tim Miller
No. It's funny you ask, because that came up on the pod and no, not really.
- [10:44]
Sam Stein
We care about this shit, but not that much. Okay, got it.
- [10:47]
Tim Miller
There's.
- [10:48]
Elon Musk
There's also in the bill, they're getting rid of the tax credits for electric vehicles and home solar energy, which is like a direct hit to Elon's wallet, which could be pissing them off even more.
- [11:00]
Sam Stein
I still don't see an. I still don't see a breakup with him and Trump.
- [11:04]
Expedia Ad
I still don't see it.
- [11:05]
Tim Miller
Yeah, a couple other things I wanted to bring up just because I was on his Twitter feed for. If you're looking for evidence of whether it's a full breakup since the I'm so. It's also funny, like, Elon is so shallow and manipulative that he could like, say things like, like, shame on you, who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. And then the next minute be like, hey, buddy, like, that's like, you know, like if I'm shouting shame, shame at somebody, like, it's going to be a little, a little minute for us to repair our relationship. That's an issue for Elon. He was retweeting Mike Lee, like two seconds later. The other thing is, you know, he is still leaning in on his stuff. He did a tweet about how USAID funds terrorism right before. So, like, again, to your point, Joe, like, the messaging is very Freedom Caucus oriented. And I think that kind of. You could almost imagine an alternate history, like where the breakup happened a month ago and Elon like riles up that caucus and maybe gets a couple of those guys. But at this point, I don't know, tbd. We'll see. A full breakup with Trump is hard to see. But like, Elon, you know, just looking in the little box, finding something fun and popping out at three in the morning and he's tweeting at all hours. So all it takes is just like one minute where he's like, fuck you, you fucking little tiny fingered Bulgarian. And like, or, you know, this is Peter Ricardo. He comes up with one of those for Trump. That could happen, I think.
- [12:32]
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, know that, like, they've formally broken up. When Trump says, I've never met the guy, I don't know, that's how we know it's over.
- [12:41]
Sam Stein
Low level intern. Yeah.
- [12:44]
Tim Miller
Thank you so much for the rapid response. You're reporting for the Hill. Joe, thank you for your chuckles and an insightful commentary. Sam Stein. Everybody else, we'll see you back here soon. Peace.