BREAKING: Trump’s Creepy Epstein Friendship Exposed by WSJ

Summary

Bulwark Takes: BREAKING: Trump’s Creepy Epstein Friendship Exposed by WSJ

Release Date: July 18, 2025
Host: The Bulwark Team (Tim Miller, Sam Stein)
Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Description: Bite-sized takes on the news of the day from The Bulwark team, including insights from Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, Bill Kristol, and others.

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Introduction to the WSJ Story

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller and Sam Stein delve into a breaking Wall Street Journal (WSJ) report revealing a concerning association between former President Donald Trump and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. The WSJ story centers on a birthday album that Epstein compiled for his 50th birthday, which includes a personal letter from Trump.

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Unpacking the Epstein-Trump Birthday Letter

Tim Miller introduces the main focus of the discussion:

“[00:14] Tim Miller: ...Headline, Jeff Epstein's friends sent him body letters for a 50th birthday album. One was for Donald Trump. They detail the letter, and it is truly something I wanted to come right back on to talk to you again...”

The letter in question is not just a simple note but includes hand-drawn imagery and typewritten text framed by an outline of a naked woman. The design is notably crude, with Trump's signature drawn below the waist, mimicking pubic hair:

“[02:00] Tim Miller: ...a pair of small arcs denote the woman's breasts, and the future president's signature is a squiggly Donald below her waist, mimicking pubic hair.”

This graphic depiction suggests a personal and possibly inappropriate relationship between Trump and Epstein, raising significant questions about their association.

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Analyzing the Content and Implications

Sam Stein and Tim Miller dissect the cryptic message within the letter. The letter includes a scripted dialogue between "Donald" and "Jeffrey," hinting at shared secrets:

“[02:54] Sam Stein: What do you want to call it? “Tim: It’s not really a poem. It’s kind of like a scene, I guess you call it like a script.”

The dialogue references their mutual status as "enigmas" and culminates in wishing each other a "wonderful secret":

“[09:34] Tim Miller: ...may every day be another wonderful secret.”

This cryptic language suggests that both men were aware of certain unsavory secrets, likely related to Epstein's illicit activities.

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Trump's Denials and Responses

Upon confronting the allegations, Donald Trump has vehemently denied the authenticity of the WSJ report. He claims the letter is fabricated and the entire story is a "fake thing":

“[12:16] Tim Miller: ...Trump denied writing a letter or drawing the picture. This is not me. This is a fake thing...”

However, an intriguing piece of evidence challenges his denial. In 2004, a woman from Ohio solicited celebrity doodles for charity, and Trump was reportedly the first to respond. A drawing attributed to Trump shows a hand-drawn New York skyline with crude pubic hair, aligning with the WSJ's description:

“[13:51] Sam Stein: ...she sent these solicitations out. She said Trump was the first person to send his drawing back in. And it was this little...”

This anecdote undermines Trump's claim that he "never wrote a picture" and suggests a pattern of such behavior.

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Media Ethics and J.D. Vance’s Critique

J.D. Vance, referenced through his tweets, criticizes the WSJ for publishing the story without sharing the primary documentation with Trump, raising questions about journalistic integrity:

“[16:19] Tim Miller: ...JD is also leaning in on this, isn't it? Journalistic ethics. Don't you have to show this to us before you write it. Why didn't they even show it to us?”

Sam Stein counters by explaining possible reasons for withholding the primary document, such as protecting sources or preventing metadata leaks:

“[18:26] Sam Stein: ...they might just be doing this as a means of trying to protect their source...”

Despite these explanations, the debate underscores the tension between press freedom and verification of sensitive information.

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Implications of the Epstein-Trump Connection

The revelation of Trump's connection to Epstein through this letter adds another layer to the already controversial relationship between the two men. The hosts discuss the broader public interest in understanding the depth of Trump's associations and the potential impact on his public image:

“[19:57] Tim Miller: ...there is a clear public interest in having these, these data points out there. Like, we do need to know the extent of how close he was to Epstein.”

Moreover, the discussion touches on the likely backlash from Trump’s supporters, who may frame the WSJ report as another example of media bias against him:

“[20:32] Sam Stein: ...he actually thinks it's real and that he knows it's incriminating. ...this is just a playbook.”

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, Tim Miller emphasizes the significance of the WSJ report as a "huge puzzle piece" in understanding the relationships and dynamics within Trump's circle and the broader implications for his administration:

“[22:00] Tim Miller: ...this is a huge puzzle piece in.”

The hosts commit to following the story as more details emerge, highlighting the continuing investigation into Epstein’s network and its connections to high-profile figures.

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Notable Quotes

• Tim Miller (00:14): “Headline, Jeff Epstein's friends sent him body letters for a 50th birthday album. One was for Donald Trump.”
• Tim Miller (02:00): “...the future president's signature is a squiggly Donald below her waist, mimicking pubic hair.”
• Sam Stein (05:29): “...Donald is 42 years old. He was dating someone who is... 22 years younger.”
• Tim Miller (12:16): “This is not me. This is a fake thing. It’s a fake Wall Street Journal story.”
• Tim Miller (16:19): “JD is also leaning in on this, isn't it? Journalistic ethics. Don't you have to show this to us before you write it.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Bulwark Takes provides a comprehensive analysis of the WSJ’s explosive report on Donald Trump’s association with Jeffrey Epstein. Through detailed examination of the evidence, exploration of media ethics, and consideration of the broader implications, Tim Miller and Sam Stein offer listeners a nuanced perspective on a highly sensitive and significant political development.

Transcript

[Sam Stein]

I'm gonna put you on, nephew. All right, unc.

[Tim Miller]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Sam Stein]

Can I take your order, miss? I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, everybody. Tim Miller in the bulwark here. That Wall Street Journal story that we told you was coming. Well, it's here. Headline, Jeff Epstein's friends sent him body letters for a 50th birthday album. One was for Donald Trump. They detail the letter, and it is truly something I wanted to come right back on to talk to you again, but I waited 15 minutes for Sam Stein to get home from a swim meet because look at my Jimmy, not.

[Sam Stein]

Not my swimming. Just to be clear, I am giddy. I am giddy. And I'm glad you waited for me. I did call you from the car, and I think the words that came out was, you better not fucking record this without me. I need to be on this take.

[Tim Miller]

We have to discuss, well, everyone who is on the video version of this boy take. And watch Sam's face as I read to him about the letter, please. This is, I guess, a bound book. You won't be surprised to hear that Ghislaine Maxwell organized this book. She went to jail.

[Sam Stein]

Body is such an interesting word. Body.

[Tim Miller]

Body. Locker room talk. It's a little body. We're getting Jeffrey's good friends, among them, Donald Trump. This is the year 2003, and she bound the book. And everything is very. According to the story. It's very formal. The notes bearing Trump's name, which was reviewed by the Journal, is body. We mentioned body. Like others in the album, it contains several lines of typewritten text framed by the outline of a naked woman, which appears to be hand drawn with a heavy marker. Trump the artiste. A pair of small arcs denote the woman's breasts, and the future president's signature is a squiggly Donald below her waist, mimicking pubic hair. So it's nice that the woman has pubic hair. I guess that's the only positive point for Donald in this whole story.

[Sam Stein]

It seems like, look, he's a realist. He's a realist.

[Tim Miller]

We're aiming at least for the age of woman that has pubic hair. Oh, I didn't even pick that up. I guess that was my point. Inside this naked woman, this drawing, this outline of a woman. And you should note that we should know, for people who aren't familiar with this, Sam have you ever received a Sharpie letter from Trump?

[Sam Stein]

I have, I have, yeah. It was some tweet I wrote. He just, like, scribbled over it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Trump's a famously a Sharpie drawer writer. And so I think that. Again, we'll get into their denial here in a second, but the fact that it was a Sharpie drawing lends some credence to the fact that this is actually.

[Sam Stein]

Sounds like Sharpies. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. So inside the woman, we don't know. They haven't showed us a picture of this yet. That's another thing we'll get to. But according to the Wall Street Journal, there's a typewritten, kind of a. I guess you call it limerick, A poem.

[Sam Stein]

What do you want to call it?

[Tim Miller]

It's not really a poem. It's kind of like a scene, I guess you call it like a script.

[Sam Stein]

Let's call it a script.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, script. Trump's kind of putting out a scene. Not a very good scene. I don't think Trump, like, had a future in screenwriting, but.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, speak. Well, it was very good.

[Tim Miller]

You are titillated by it. Okay, here we go. Everybody ready? Voiceover, Colon. There must be more to life than having everything. And then we get Donald. Yes, there is, but I won't tell you what it is. I don't know who the U is there. I guess the reader. Jeffrey replies, fictional. Jeffrey. Nor will I, since I also know what it is. And then Donald again. We have certain things in common. Jeffrey. Jeffrey. Yes, we do. Come to think of it, Donald, enigmas never age. Have you noticed that, Jeffrey? As a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you. Trump. A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday. And may every day be another wonderful secret. May every day be another wonderful secret. I wonder what secrets they have. Sam. I wonder. What do you think it is? I guess if we're going to diagram.

[Sam Stein]

This scene, let's dive into it. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So it begins. There must be more to life than having everything. I wonder what that more is. You know, if it was like my mother writing it, it would be maybe faith in God or love of grandchildren, family.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think it is between Donald and Jeffrey, though? There must be more to life than having everything. I wonder what the more is. They both know it's a secret that they have.

[Sam Stein]

Sure, sure.

[Tim Miller]

And then. And then Donald illuminates it a little bit for us by saying that we have certain things in common.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, let's stop there. Certain things in common. That could be anything.

[Tim Miller]

They both Like Peter Luger's. Yeah, there was a dinner at Peter Luger Steakhouse.

[Sam Stein]

I'm sure they like a nice, a nice sort of medium rare Luger steak. That's got to be it.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe ice skating at 30 Rock Rockefeller.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, they go to that rink that Trump saved and they probably hold hands. They got scarred are in them sipping hot chocolate after it's done. Maybe like strawberry ice cream. I don't know. Something like quaint probably. Or maybe it's young girls. And why might it be young girls? I don't know. Because Trump said Jeffrey Epson likes him young the year before this birthday album. But. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

We'Re not. How far are we? You were, you and I were. You were posting in our slack, reminding us about Gabriella.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. This is something that people forgot. Okay. So first of all, just keep in mind a few things. This is 2003, when he writes this letter to Epstein, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

So he's 57 years old at this point. I hope I'm not doing this shit at 57. Just put it.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I don't know. I live in New Orleans. Who knows what my future holds? But 14 years ago, okay, 14 years.

[Sam Stein]

Ago, so this is.

[Tim Miller]

Was the Gabriella Sabatini thing, 1989.

[Sam Stein]

So he's 42 years old. @ the time, I just totally forgot about this. But someone reminded me that he's 42. He's between his first and second wife, so he's a bachelor. And there's a bunch of like, you know, man about town stories about how he's dating Gabriella Sabatini, who at the time is a tennis phenom star, and she's 19 years old. And like this is a thing that was public that we all just sort of put away and didn't really think about, but it's true. Like, I kid you not. There's articles, contemporaneous articles, and then articles subsequently, like tennis magazines about this where he was dating someone who, who is, if I'm doing my math correctly, 22 years younger. But she's 19 years old.

[Tim Miller]

It's. It's like, yes, you have the data point when he complimented the looks of his own daughter when she was in her teens. Though she does have a very nice figure. You got the Miss Universe.

[Sam Stein]

Miss Universe. Yeah, yeah, the Miss Universe.

[Tim Miller]

They're standing there with no cl. Is everybody okay?

[Sam Stein]

And you see these incredible looking women and so I sort of get away.

[Tim Miller]

With things like that. So we know that Donald had an appetite for younger girls. We know that Jeffrey did. Yeah, we Know that Donald knew that. Jeffrey did because he said it in an interview to New York magazine. That's one thing we know they both have in common. Feels like that's what he's mentioning. There could have been something else.

[Sam Stein]

Could have been something else. I mean, it is vague, but it's like very wink, wink. I mean, if it was, if it was Peter Luger steak, he probably said, we love that Peter Luger's Jeffrey.

[Tim Miller]

Jeffrey, the fictional Jeffrey replies, yes, we do. Come to think of it.

[Sam Stein]

Come to think of it.

[Tim Miller]

Come to think of it, that's interesting.

[Sam Stein]

They clearly had some rapport going on here. But it's the enigmas line that really.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, so now we go into enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? So there are a couple ways to put that. Maybe they're talking about themselves or both enigmas and they don't age. Maybe it's kind of like what was the line from Dazed and Confused style line like, we keep getting older, Enigmas stay the same age. I get older, they stay the same age.

[Sam Stein]

But enigmas, Enigmas is such a, like, peculiar word to describe oneself or even to describe, you know, young girls. Like, why call them enigmas? I don't get it. It's weird. I mean, obviously the whole thing is.

[Tim Miller]

Weird, but maybe they, they are trying to describe how they don't like them there. They see themselves very, as, as enigmas. Jeff Epstein is certainly an enigma. And at the time he has a ton of money. Nobody knows where it comes from.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And he's about five years away. No, even less. He's. He's now, he's much less years away from.

[Sam Stein]

He's arrested in 2006. So this is three years away.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, he's three years away from getting arrested from running a child sex trafficking ring. So I guess so he certainly is an enigma at the time. Hmm. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, the whole thing, the whole thing is bizarre. And then what? The other thing is that the reason to think it might be real is that Alan Dershowitz also apparently, according to this article, wrote an entry in this bound birthday book, which is so funny. I mean, and he's like, he didn't deny it. He just says, I don't recall writing it. It's been a long time. So I think the book is real.

[Tim Miller]

Letter included a mock up of Vanity unfair magazine cover with mock headlines such as, who is Jack the Ripper? Was it Jeffrey Epstein? I guess that's interesting because at this point it shows that there is some media scrutiny on Jeff and his behavior that Dershowitz is upset about. So people could have conceivably had some ideas that there were some things that media reporters might look into. Anyway, Dersh's letter's in there. This Trump's letter. We should really, though, dial in on the final line of it.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful celebration. Secret.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Another wonderful secret. What again? What secret do you think he's talking about there? You know, it's not like it's so.

[Sam Stein]

Cryptic, but he also calls him a pal in that last line. I mean, let's not lose sight of. Like, there is that element of this, which is. And I guess because we're so far down the rabbit hole here, but, like, they were pals. Like, this is not a minor matter. Like, whatever you think about the word enigmas and what the secrets are and what, what they have in common. The certain things they have in common. Like he is there calling him a pal. He has written him a birthday letter. Like, they were clearly in this moment where Epine is doing horrific stuff and is getting press scrutiny. Donald Trump is there with this dude calling him a pal. Like, at the bare minimum. That seems like, notable to me, but we're so far past that. Mad.

[Tim Miller]

It does. I, I just. The wonderful secret thing is just like, again, could it be something else? Could they be talking about some other kind of secret? I guess, but you're writing this letter to a guy who is carrying this massive secret about the fact that he's trafficking and taping underage.

[Sam Stein]

And we know that Trump sort of knows this because a year before the letter in 2002 is when he gives the quote to New York magazine, being like, he likes the girls really young and he loves to party. So Trump knows the reputation.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the man has a secret island where he's trafficking women to have sex with, like, a woman. Weird.

[Sam Stein]

I don't think that's the thing they have in common. We probably would have known.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that's the thing they have in common either. I'm just saying that, like, if you're. If I was writing a letter to somebody, you know, if I was writing a letter to, like, you know, one of my buddies and, and they had like, kind of this well known secret, but it's a little bit more pg, you know, like, let's say they got drunk one time, went to Vegas, got married, and it was like, divorced. And then it was like, only I knew it because I happened to be on the trip and I wrote. And when it's fiftieth I just want to tease him a little bit. And I was like, remember that wonderful secret that we have? You know that like, okay, so.

[Sam Stein]

But it's just like, remember when you married Enygma?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You don't mention a wonderful secret unless there's a share. I guess it's possible Jeffrey Epstein has some other secret. Him and Donald have some other secret besides the secret sex dungeon that he has.

[Sam Stein]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

It seems like the secret sex dungeon is the secret they're talking about.

[Sam Stein]

I think at this point it's worth sort of noting. Well, definitely noting that Trump has denied this. He says it's fake. Right. And J.D. vance. What was the Vance tweet?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I've got both of them. Let's, let's, let's actually read the Trump quote because I think the Trump quote is, is pretty, is pretty relevant here. Trump denied writing a letter or drawing the picture. This is not me. This is a fake thing. It's a fake Wall Street Journal story. I never wrote a picture in my life. I don't draw pictures of women. It's not my language. It's not my words. Seems like a guy who's panicking kind of to me like that. Like he's contraposing different words.

[Sam Stein]

I don't draw pictures of women. Presidential lexicon. That one's got to be a first, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Then he goes on, I'm going to sue the Wall Street Journal. Like I sued everybody else, as you said. I want to just dial in really quick on the. I never wrote a picture in my life. Um, obviously just a little flub there by our very elderly president. But it's funny, going around since that quote came out. Is this hilarious? Amazing is this woman in Ohio, she solicited doodles from celebrities to auction for charity. So she like writes a letter to them. Will you send me something you've drawn and I'm going to auction it off and we'll give the money to charity. She was doing that in 2004. So the year after this supposed body doodle was drawn and she, she, she sent these solicitations out. She said Trump was the first person to send his drawing back in. And it was this little. We'll put it up on the screen here. It was this little hand drawn New York skyline with his signature pubic hair there at the bottom.

[Sam Stein]

I don't get this. I don't get this. How did he even stumble upon this auction thing? Like, like, where did this come from? Any. And, and like, why he felt the need let's assume this is real. I don't know, but let's just assume for this.

[Tim Miller]

Real.

[Sam Stein]

Who knows what's real anymore? I'm gonna assume it's real. What the is he doing?

[Tim Miller]

He was born as a fake businessman. He's a fake businessman. Celebrity just put his name on buildings. And he liked attention. He replied to people's messages.

[Sam Stein]

Look at this drawing. It's so good. Is that a road? I think that's a curvy road with, like, cabs in it. And there's, like, little stars and a moon. It's just like, what was he doing with his life? It's unbelievable.

[Tim Miller]

All I'm saying is that's one mark against the saying. The saying that he's never wrote a picture in his life. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

But I will say there's no woman in that picture. Unless those stick figures are women.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. There does not appear to be any woman in the charity picture or any small breasts, but. Okay, so that's. That's his defense. I do it before I get to. J.D. do you have anything else on Trump?

[Sam Stein]

No, I'm just looking through. I'm looking through this tweet thread now, and there's other doodles that he has. Betty White. No, there's a Betty White doodle. That's not Trump. Oh, my God. That's a great doodle by Betty White. Now, the guy, he liked a good skyscraper. I'll just say that he liked a very rudimentary sky skyscraper.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, jd. JD Came in a little hotter.

[Sam Stein]

Well, this is so performative. I love it.

[Tim Miller]

The Vice poster in chief.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Always begins every post with some, like, condescending, broke, clear thing. Like, he's got it. He never just can say what he means, which is, ugh, I just. Anyway, he begins like this. Forgive my language. You know, we're not. You're typing. You know, you don't have to do this thing. Like, you accidentally cussed and you say, forgive my language. You just cuss. Or not. Anyway, forgive my language, but this story is complete and utter bullshit. The WSJ should be ashamed for publishing it. You should know something about shame. Where is this letter, he asks. Would you be shocked to learn they never showed it to us before publishing it? Question mark. Does anyone honestly believe this sounds like Donald Trump? So I'll answer the last question first. Yes, it kind of does sound like Donald Trump. Yeah. You know, the guy that bragged about grabbing women by the pussy in the tape. Like, it does kind of sound like him. Yeah. So, I mean, I Guess it's a little cloying for Trump. Would be my one argument in the JD Thing. A pal is a wonderful thing is the one sentence that doesn't ring very Trump to me.

[Sam Stein]

It's, it's, it reads like someone who's not good at writing, trying to be like, flowerly and, you know, a good writer, and he's like, oh, this sounds like a good line. Look, JD Is just. It's like, I mean, so ridiculous. Yes, it sounds like Trump. We know it sounds like Trump because he was talking Epstein a year ago about all this stuff. It's on. It's in New York Magazine. It's like we, we see him on tape. It sounds like Trump and. But this is the playbook and we know it's coming and whatever. Like, obviously, I think the Journal had to run this piece. I want to get into the media ethics of this and, and why they had to run this piece. And I think this is a good jumping off point.

[Tim Miller]

One more JD Vance tweet. It is about media ethics. So I just finished what he wrote, and then we'll, then you can go. Because he writes. Doesn't it violate some rule of journalistic ethics to publish a letter like this without showing it to the victim of the hit piece? Donald Trump being the victim there, The President, United States. Will the people who have bought into every hoax against President Trump show an ounce of skepticism before buying into this bizarre story? No.

[Sam Stein]

Is he saying so he's saying that the letter is fabricated. It doesn't exist. The Journal reports that it's in the DOJ files and that's in the Journal's piece. Unless I'm reading it wrong, I'm going to go up to the top again. Pages from the leather bound album assembled before Epstein was first arrested in 2006 are among the documents examined by Justice Department officials who investigated Epstein and Maxwell years ago, according to people who have reviewed the pages. It's unclear if any of the pages are part of the Trump administration's recent review, but the Journal's reporting that they're in a DOJ file. I mean, what are we talking about? I don't think. But this is, of course, why Trump went crazy two days ago and said, oh, you know, this is Comey and Obama and Hillary have, like, planted all this stuff. All right.

[Tim Miller]

This also goes to where this whole, like, because you're a, you're a real journalist, Sam. So, you know, this is why I think JD Is also leaning in on this, isn't it? Journalistic ethics. Don't you have to show this to us before you write it. Why didn't they even show it to us? And I guess that's the one part of this might be a legit question that I would have, is like, why didn't the Wall Street Journal publish the whole picture if they have it anyway? What do you make of that?

[Sam Stein]

Look, I don't know the process by which they did this. So this is just speculative, but there's plenty of honest reasons for why you wouldn't show primary documentation or publish the primary documentation in a piece like this, right? Like, for instance, it could reveal the sour of the letter, right? Like there could be, you know, the actual page itself could have some sort of, you know, writing on it that's clear, that makes clear that they got it from someone or something like that, like, or metadata or something like that. And so they might just be doing this as a means of trying to protect their source. And it's possible, for instance, that they were given this letter on conditions that they could see it authenticated but couldn't publish it. That happens all the time. And then you're left with a choice of, well, we know it's real, we know it's authenticated, we can only get it under this condition. Do we publish it? And in this case, obviously, 10 times out of 10, you are journalist, you are journalistically bound to publish a letter of this newsworthiness like, it's just not even remotely a call, presuming you have authenticated it. Now, on the issue of, you know, what's going to happen after this, like, we know how this goes, right? They're going to just cry, you know, cry foul. They're going to say it's fake. They're going to say it's shady journalism. They're going to sue the Post. They're going to, they're going to call it a hit piece. They're going to call it a hoax. Like, yeah, all the MAGA people are going to just go crazy on the Journal because this is the playbook they run and this is the expectation. And frankly, in a weird way, they probably will benefit from this, right? Like, they'll just have a boogeyman and say, oh, they're just smearing us.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, the thing but whatever is that like you already see like the Megyn Kelly's of the world coming back around and like, and it might be a way to get the MAGA folks on side to be like, hey, look, see, they're coming after Trump over this. Now. You can't criticize him over it anymore. I do think there'll be a little bit of that. I talked about this in the, in the teaser video when we knew this, when we heard this was coming, said, what do you make of Trump calling the Journal at managing editor to try to get her to not run it? I mean, I think that's pretty noteworthy as well, 100%.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, it shows to me at least that shows that he actually thinks it's real and that he knows it's incriminating. If he thought it was a bunch of baloney, you know, he could have said, go ahead and run it like it's fake. Have fun. I'll sue you. Like, I don't care. But that's not what he did. And I think, you know, everything that he had said in the days prior to this indicate that he understands that this is significant because he's acting so erratic about this stuff and he's going off about, you know, well, this, all this stuff is definitely a hoax and it's fake. And that's just laying the predicate for he knew this was coming. That was laying the predicate to make this piece into another dossier, essentially. And this is what they did after Access Hollywood, too, right? Remember, initially he was, like, apologetic about it, but then, like, within a couple days, he's like, or maybe it was more than that, but he was like, is that really my voice? Like, is that really my voice? And this is just a playbook. They're going to do this again. I do anticipate that this, there's going to be a rallying around the flag element to this among Trumpers, but frankly, whatever. Like, there is a clear public interest in having these, these data points out there. Like, we do need to know the extent of how close he was to Epstein. It does say a ton about Trump himself, where he came from, who he associates with, or who he did associate with. And it explains what key figures in the administration are now doing. Right. Like they are consumed by the Epstein saga. This is a huge puzzle piece in.

[Tim Miller]

That indeed, we have certain things in common. Samuel.

[Sam Stein]

We love enigmas.

[Tim Miller]

We love enigmas. We love to do youtubes. When enigmas rise rises to our attention. No wonderful secrets here, everybody. As we learn more, we'll keep you posted and there'll be much more on this story in the coming days. So we'll see you soon.

[Sam Stein]

Later.