Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode Title: Bulwark on Sunday: The Persecution of Trans Americans

Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Colonel Brie Fram (U.S. Space Force, on administrative leave following an executive order expelling trans service members)
Date: August 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Bulwark Takes centers on the ongoing persecution of transgender Americans, with a particular focus on trans service members in the U.S. military under the second Trump administration. Bill Kristol interviews Colonel Brie Fram, a decorated officer forced out of service after more than 22 years due to the administration’s anti-transgender executive order. The conversation flows from Brie’s personal and military journey, the experience of coming out as trans in the armed forces, to the evolving political and legal assaults on trans Americans, both within and beyond military life.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brie Fram’s Military Service and Coming Out (01:13–08:52)

• Brie’s Career Path

  • Over 22 years of distinguished service in the Air Force and Space Force.
  • Entered the military post-9/11 to honor her grandfathers’ WWII legacy and to serve something greater than herself.
  • Came out as transgender in 2016, after 13 years of service, following a policy change allowing open service.

• Experience of Coming Out

  • Extreme apprehension before publicly announcing her transgender status; immediate support from colleagues.
  • “When I got back to my desk, I sat down, and one by one, my colleagues walked over to me, shook my hand and said, an honor to serve with you.” – Brie Fram [04:44]
  • Found that being authentic enabled her to be a better leader and service member.

2. Inclusive Service and Evolving Acceptance (07:21–08:52)

• After coming out, Brie encountered no issues.
• Found strong support from subordinates and leadership.
• “What do we care about? It’s: do we look to our left, we look to our right—do you have my back?” – Brie Fram [07:54]
• This positive experience of inclusion was echoed by many trans service members.

3. Policy Shifts: Trump Administrations and Transgender Military Ban (08:52–14:21)

• First Trump Term (2017)

  • Abrupt announcement banning trans service members via tweet.
  • Initial confusion: “First you’re like, is a tweet an order? Is this policy? … The only answer was, lace up our boots, go to work and accomplish the mission that we’ve been given, prove again and again that we belong.” – Brie Fram [09:54]
  • Policy eventually implemented, with existing openly trans members exempted but new enlistments and transitions barred.

• Second Trump Term (2025)

  • More sweeping and coordinated purge—including the removal of those already serving.
  • Executive order framed as ‘prioritizing military excellence and readiness’ but characterized by Brie as a direct attack on the character of trans people.
  • “The executive order was really an attack on our character. It said that we were undisciplined dishonorable liars who lack the humility required for military service.” – Brie Fram [13:20]

• Brie’s Personal Experience

  • Final meeting at the Pentagon: senior leaders saddened by her forced departure, emphasizing respect and loss.
  • “It’s been an honor to serve with you.” – senior admirals/generals to Brie Fram [06:58]

4. Arguments & Legal Cover for the Ban (14:21–17:29)

• The administration’s rationale for the ban rested on broad, subjective claims of character rather than evidence.
• “There is nothing here but animus… it is in fact the service records of the members that were the plaintiffs that were exhibit A as to why these claims were provably false.” – Brie Fram [16:10]
• Government resorted to using mandated medical diagnoses (gender dysphoria) as grounds for administrative removal, regardless of actual performance or suitability.

5. Current Reality: Administrative Leave, Uncertainty, and Broader Impacts (17:29–End)

• Scope of the Purge

  • Thousands of trans service members affected; exact number unknown because self-identification is prohibited.
  • Those on administrative leave await separation; others are subject to involuntary processes and targeting through medical record reviews or even social media.
  • “If you find someone who said something on social media, or if someone you believe exhibits the symptoms consistent with gender dysphoria, you can point them out and direct them to a medical evaluation to get identified. And I think that’s particular dangerous…” – Brie Fram [19:00]

• Climate and Consequences

  • New policies encourage suspicion, undermine unit cohesion, and could lead to harassment of cisgender women who don’t fit gender norms.
  • National security concerns cited due to the disruption and loss of trained personnel.

Notable Quotes (with timestamps)

• On Coming Out:

  • “When I got back to my desk, I sat down, and one by one, my colleagues walked over to me, shook my hand and said, an honor to serve with you. And I was floored because the honor was mine.” – Brie Fram [04:44]

• On Authenticity and Service:

  • “It made me a better leader, a better friend, a better service member.” – Brie Fram [05:14]
  • “All we were doing was reaching for our best selves. That’s what transition was for us.” – Brie Fram [08:32]

• On Policy Rationale:

  • "The executive order was really an attack on our character. It said that we were undisciplined dishonorable liars who lack the humility required for military service… but in many aspects I’d argue that we are [humble] because we are the people that are humble enough to put on the cloth of our nation.” – Brie Fram [13:20, 13:56]

• On Policy Comparison and Legal Maneuvers:

  • “There’s all sorts of changes that are coming. There’s policy being made up… new ways to push people out of service… The concept, even of administrative leave was brand new for the military, just for these people.” – Brie Fram [16:41]

• On the Wider Danger:

  • “I think that’s particular dangerous because that opens up a lot of charges against women in particular… And it perpetuates some really damaging stereotypes.” – Brie Fram [19:12]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Brie Fram's background and decision to serve: [02:08–03:53]
• Coming out experience in the Pentagon: [04:12–06:58]
• First Trump ban & media/public impact: [09:32–11:27]
• The shift under Trump 2.0—explicit purge: [11:57–14:21]
• Discussion of the legal/medical rationale for purge: [15:21–17:29]
• Current experiences, administrative leave, potential for abuse: [17:52–20:30]

Tone & Closing

Throughout the episode, both Kristol and Fram maintain a respectful, analytical tone—combining personal narrative with broader political and legal analysis. Brie’s reflections highlight resilience and pride, even as she acknowledges the pain and danger of current policies:

“We have proved over and over again that we're capable of accomplishing the mission.” – Brie Fram [08:13]

This episode provides a deeply personal window into the lived consequences of contentious policy and a sobering reminder of the stakes for transgender Americans under hostile administrations.