Bulwark Takes: Bulwark on Sunday — "Trump is Forcing the Military to Break the Law"

With Host Bill Kristol and Guest Rep. Jim Himes

September 21, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Bill Kristol sits down with Representative Jim Himes, ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, to examine the deeply troubling shifts in U.S. military and intelligence policy under Trump’s second administration—particularly a string of extrajudicial military actions in the Caribbean and a crackdown on press freedom and oversight. The conversation digs into the erosion of legal norms, congressional oversight, internal government resistance (or the lack thereof), and the broader implications for American democracy.

The tone is frank, forceful, and at times deeply alarmed. Rep. Himes repeatedly emphasizes that recent military actions are "illegal, period, full stop," and both he and Kristol probe questions of accountability, the breakdown of internal guardrails, and what checks—if any—might still exist in Washington.

Key Points & Insights

1. Context and Committee Dynamics

• Kristol opens by situating Himes as a long-serving centrist Democrat from a district long-represented by moderate Republicans, underscoring a continuity of pragmatic governance (01:11).
• The bipartisan, productive approach of recent House Intelligence Committees is contrasted with its current composition: "The purging of Mike Turner… was a very ominous sign," says Kristol (02:14), to which Himes replies that hardliners are now in control, with "the tone... changing" and MAGA conspiracy theorists in key roles (02:52).

2. State of the Intelligence Community

• Himes details a campaign of firings and security clearance revocations targeting those involved in Russia investigations or contradicting Trump's line:
  • "The men and women of the IC are being told...you fall in line with the President’s policies and message or your job is at risk." (04:07-05:10)
• He warns that the intelligence community is being pushed to execute covert actions "pushing legal and other boundaries… consistent with what we’re seeing with DoD attacks on boats in the Caribbean" (05:19).

3. "Illegal, Period" Military Actions in the Caribbean

• Himes is unequivocal: "Having the Defense Department kill alleged, alleged drug runners in the Caribbean is illegal, period, full stop. It is illegal. And what mystifies me is...there’s not really a debate about that." (07:28)
• He is shocked not just by the President’s disregard for the law, but the willingness of the military chain of command to go along:
  • "These folks are committing murder. Murder defined as killing without a legal basis. And I am mystified over why the rest of the chain of command is quite comfortable…" (08:04)
• Kristol and Himes note the Pentagon failed to articulate any real legal authority even after initial killings, with Himes stating, "it's another thumb in the eye of Congress's war making authority" and possibly the first time in U.S. history the military has "deliberately targeted civilians" (08:24).
• Himes highlights the reckless loss of intelligence-gathering opportunities by simply killing suspects rather than apprehending them (09:23).

4. Chilling Effect on Military & Chain of Command

• Both men worry about the precedent set and the legal jeopardy posed to junior officers. Himes compares this situation to post-9/11 lethal strikes, emphasizing—"the work that we do when we take lethal action against terrorists...is in total contrast to the trigger happy wildness that we're seeing in the killing of civilians..." (11:16)
• Kristol notes the administration’s invocation of "magic phrases" like "imminent threat" or "collective self-defense," dismissing them as unserious and revealing a disregard for basic legal norms (12:00).

5. Broader Erosion of Oversight & Press Freedom

• The administration's refusal to brief Congress or explain legal rationales is unprecedented, according to both (14:44). Kristol notes even in more aggressive past cases, briefings and legal justifications were customary.
• Himes connects this to a new Pentagon approach to the press, likening a new directive to "censorship" as practiced in Moscow or Beijing:
  • "It's what they do in Beijing, it's what they do in Moscow...and in fact, is very much at odds with the very first amendment to our Constitution..." (17:46)
• Himes is slightly heartened that a few Republicans (e.g. Ted Cruz) show "anxiety" over crackdowns on free speech, but overall sees almost no Congressional resistance (19:14).

6. The Fear-Driven Republican Congress

• Himes draws a sharp contrast between the private dismay of Republican colleagues during Trump’s first term and their near-total silence (except under intoxicated private circumstances) today, out of fear of being targeted by Trump:
  • "Trump version 2.0, you've got to get three or four glasses of wine in private in a dark bar before any of these guys say boo..." (19:43)
• He ponders, "Why do so many members of Congress so desperately cling to their careers that they are willing to betray...fundamental moral principles?" (21:05)

7. The Stakes of 2026 and the Limits of Congressional Power

• Kristol asks what difference winning a House majority would make. Himes responds frankly:
  • "In compared to what we have today, which is pretty much nothing...We would have subpoena power...We would control the agenda..." (27:47)
  • Yet, because the Justice Department is now led by Trump loyalists, even committee subpoenas could be ignored with impunity: "...if we all agree that that's the solution...what does Congress do? They have to make a referral to the Department of Justice...Pam Bondi, who seems to be confused about the First Amendment." (28:34)

8. The Loss of Internal Guardrails & The Normalization of Autocracy

• Kristol notes that in Trump’s first term, figures like Mark Esper, Gina Haspel, and Congress itself acted as constraints. Now, lacking those, “all the talk about, gee, it’s worrisome, it could be authoritarian—this is kind of what it is, what it looks like, right?” (22:03)
• Himes bluntly states, "Because there is no Congress...you have to stand by and watch the internal contradictions split the party...the only thing that you have in the face of a completely inert Congress." (22:03-23:54)
• Both agree U.S. democracy is being boiled “a little at a time”:
  • "It’s just advancing the tolerance for the forms of autocracy day in and day out...we look back and we have an autocracy and say how did we get here? And it was just the daily moving of what we're willing to tolerate. Yikes." (32:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The men and women of the IC are being told that you fall in line with the President’s policies and message or your job is at risk."
  — Rep. Jim Himes (05:00)

• "Having the Defense Department kill alleged, alleged drug runners in the Caribbean is illegal, period, full stop. It is illegal."
  — Rep. Jim Himes (07:28)

• "These folks are committing murder. Murder defined as killing without a legal basis. And I am mystified over why the rest of the chain of command is quite comfortable..."
  — Rep. Jim Himes (08:04)

• "To have a president who just snaps his fingers and the Attorney General...the Director of National Intelligence, Secretary of Defense, yet say yes sir…I really, that part I think is just, I don’t know. We did not—we’ve not had that experience before."
  — Bill Kristol (29:36)

• "When the government says, you’re going to check your reporting with us...you are doing exactly what dictatorial regimes do."
  — Rep. Jim Himes (17:46)

• "It’s all shocking…we have an unaccountable…I mean, especially if they succeed in cracking down on the press and on the First Amendment…Congress and the press are two of our major, major sources of accountability to an administration which...has no internal guardrails either."
  — Bill Kristol (21:19)

• "Yikes...It’s just advancing the tolerance for the forms of autocracy day in and day out…a year from now, you know, we look back and we have an autocracy and say how did we get here? And it was just the daily moving of what we’re willing to tolerate."
  — Rep. Jim Himes (32:05)

Important Timestamps

• 02:52 — Himes on Mike Turner’s ouster and the committee's new hardline MAGA composition
• 04:07–05:10 — The chilling message being sent to the intelligence community
• 07:28–08:55 — Detailed explanation of why Trump’s Caribbean boat strikes are "illegal, period, full stop"
• 11:16 — Contrast to post-9/11 targeted killings and legal processes
• 14:44 — Lack of transparency and Congressional oversight compared to previous administrations
• 17:46 — Crackdown on Pentagon press coverage compared to Beijing and Moscow-style censorship
• 19:43 — Republican congressional fear and silence, private dismay replaced by public submission
• 27:47–28:34 — What Democratic House control would and wouldn’t change, with DOJ in Trump’s hands
• 32:05 — The gradual normalization of autocracy: "boiling the frog" analogy

Conclusion

This episode provides a sobering account of the new normal in Washington: an unaccountable executive, lawless military strikes justified by empty rhetoric, a cowering Congress, and a creeping authoritarianism that is being normalized day by day. Himes and Kristol’s conversation is urgent, honest, and deeply concerned for the future of core American democratic institutions.

For listeners seeking not just a recap of recent headlines but a sense of how Washington insiders are experiencing and analyzing the stakes, this conversation is essential—and alarming—listening.