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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I am coming to you after we've done a second live show in Toronto. Toronto, Not Toronto. Toronto, I was told. So I'm going to pronounce it that way from now on. We did a special Q and A session during the second show where we took questions from the audience. It was great. It was tons of fun. Incredible questions, incredible energy in the theater. Couldn't have been happier with how it went. We are going to give every one of you a sneak preview of what happened in Toronto, but the full session, unfortunately, is only available to those who are paying members. But look, become a paying member. It's pretty easy. You can join Bulwark plus on Substack, YouTube or in Apple podcasts. You get extra content like this. But most importantly, you're helping us stay independent. You're keeping this administration accountable. You're supporting great journalism. It's really worth it. So, look, if you like an outlet where there's no corporate cowards telling us or you, we. What you should read or say or how to think, support the Bulwark. Become a Bulwark member. Thanks.
- [01:06]
B
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hey, what's up, Toronto? It's so good to see everybody. Welcome to our live show, guys. I gotta tell ya. So we're doing a matinee today, but it's because when we were coming to Canada, we were like, you know, we got Canadian fans and all. Wow. We do. And also, we all might need to move there someday, so we should go check it out. And so we were planning this trip up here, but we were like, I don't know how many Canadians really follow the Bulwark. And so we got this cool theater for, you know, it seats like 400 people. And we put the show online for last night, and it sold out in 24 hours. And we were like, oh, no, there's so many more Canadians that want to see the show. And so. So we added this second show where I'm just gonna admit up front, we're all, you know, we went hard last night, so now we're doing this brunch thing, but it's gonna be. We wanna be able to. How many of you were here last night? Are there repeats? Oh, there's some, man, I have to have. We have to have all new jokes. We have to have all new content. Don't worry, though. More crimes were committed by the Trump administration overnight and do have, like, an entirely new set of content to discuss because the last 24 hours like, all 24 hours have still been remarkably awful. And so. But I just. We want to thank. Like, we were genuinely caught off guard by even walking around. People who aren't coming to the shows are like, we watch you guys. There's a guy in the elevator with us last night. He was, like, making out with his girlfriend. And. And when Tim got off the elevator and Sam and I were still in there, he, like, looked up at us and he was like, like, what you guys do? I like Tim. Like, great, man. Cool. So we're so happy to be here. We're so happy we added this second show, but it is gonna be a little different from last night. So we are gonna do. Me and Sam and Tim, we're gonna do our thing. We're gonna talk politics, but then we're gonna do a Q and A. We're going to spend a lot of the show just having you guys ask us questions, letting you guys set the terms of what we're talking about because we were too lazy to program a full second show. So that is what we're doing. But just to start us off, and for those who were here last night, we did do this last night. But it's extremely important to us that we honor you guys, our neighbors to the north. And so we want to begin with a performance. And so I'd like to welcome to the stage to sing O Canada, Tim Miller. Please, please, sir.
- [04:07]
C
You better stand up. You gotta help me stand up. I'm in my Jamal Murray jersey. Canada's finest Canadian. What's up? When the Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver, my dad bought season tickets, so I learned this. I'm going from memory. I'm a little hungover, though, so we'll see how it goes. Are you ready? 3, 2, 1. O Canada our home and native land True patriot love in all thy son's command with glowing hearts we see thee rise A true north strong and free from far and wide O Canada, we stand on guard for thee God keep our land Glorious and free Fuck you, Trump. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee O Canada we stand on guard for the. Let's do the show. No change of outfit tonight. And it's Sam Stein, managing editor. I think I did better than last night. Three cigarettes helps my diaphragm a little bit.
- [05:52]
A
Yeah, the lungs felt clearer. I was a little upset that Sarah told the elevator story.
- [05:58]
B
You wanted that content.
- [05:59]
A
No, the head is big enough already. He doesn't need anymore.
- [06:04]
C
Good. Yeah. I've got a musical theater career now ahead of me. What's happening.
- [06:09]
A
Well, thank you, guys. It's a pleasure being back here. As Sarah referenced, it wasn't 24 hours. It was 12 hours.
- [06:17]
C
12 hours.
- [06:17]
A
It's like we woke up, we got out of the show last night, and it was just an avalanche of just more shit. Trump fired another U.S. attorney, this one in Sacramento. The crime in this case was this U.S. attorney had instructed ICE officers on the proper protocols for detaining people. That was the crime. Trump fired 20 FBI agents. The crime in this case was they had knelt during the 2020 George Floyd protests. And then we got this morning's news, which is Trump is sending what he calls full force into Portland, Oregon to put down protests of the ICE facilities there. I'm gonna quote our own Bill Kristol.
- [07:08]
C
I haven't seen this yet.
- [07:09]
A
Federalist paper. No Federalist paper. 23. No. Bill, in his most eloquent way says, quote, portland as a war zone is horseshit and deploying federal troops is horseshit. So that's Bill's take.
- [07:29]
B
That was poetic.
- [07:30]
C
No Sophocles. No Sophocles.
- [07:32]
A
No Greek philosophers or anything there.
- [07:33]
C
Yeah.
- [07:35]
A
Is it not horseshit, Sarah?
- [07:36]
B
Well, can I. I want to read this bleat that he put out on Truth Social because there's a. There's actually, it's only three lines and yet there's still a lot to unpack. And he says, at the request of Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, which actually, like, we're, you know, inured to this now, but like, that in itself is an insane thing to say. Okay, so Homeland Security Christine Noem. I'm directing Secretary of War because we've changed the name to Secretary. We are now it's the Department of War, not the Department of Defense, but war.
- [08:10]
C
It's kind of like when you have one of those, like, you know, muscle cars and you look around, you're like, that dude has a micro penis. Yeah, it's kind of like that. But we had to change the name to Secretary of War. I mean, it doesn't exude confidence.
- [08:23]
B
It doesn't. But of course, where are we unleashing this war first, Pete. So they asked Pete Hedsack to provide all necessary troops to protect war ravaged Portland and any of our ICE facilities under siege from attack by antifa and other domestic terrorists. I am also authorizing all caps, full force if necessary. Thank you for your attention to this matter. So the thing is, he is saying that our former Department of Defense, now the Department of War, is going to go to war in Portland because It is war ravaged. None of this is a war. Right. And when they say America First, I didn't know what it meant was we were going to deploy our own troops to America first to come after us.
- [09:16]
A
Right. I guess what's interesting to me is we've had now the deployment of troops in Los Angeles for very, very Minor scuttles with ICE agents there. It's like a three block radius. We've had troops in D.C. and there was a question about whether there was some legal cover for Trump to do it because D.C. has its own unique sort of governance. This seems like a different level to me. No one in Portland is asking for this. No one's requested this. The governor's not asking for this. There are certainly protests outside ICE facilities there. But frankly, folks, who cares? That's what you're supposed to do. That's America. And here we have Trump saying, not that he's going to direct the Guard full force. We don't know what full force means. So to me, this feels like a different layer of menacing than we've had before.
- [10:06]
C
Well, it's an escalation. They want escalation, really. I think that's the fundamental thing here. It is being, if you take them at their word, they're trying to pitch this as things are out of control in Portland and we want to calm things down. But the opposite is true. If you wanted to do that, you would work with the governor of Oregon and work with the Oregon National Guard and ice, put more security barriers outside of the ice. Right. There's plenty of things you could do if you were trying to de escalate. And there's nothing in that bleed that makes you think that that's what they're trying to do because they're looking for word of the month, more pretexts to expand this and to do it in more places. And obviously there's been some horrible tragedies in our country recently. Like the shooting that was outside of the ICE facility in Texas is one example of this. Right. But I mean, that is like, that's the game plan here. It's pretty forthright. And he wants to use the military to do it. And like, that's not really with, I mean, you go back to the civil rights era really in our country for precedent to it.
- [11:15]
A
There does seem to be like a cycle here which seems hard to break out of, which is, you know, the escalation that Tim talks about, which then engenders real pushback because people are frightened by it. They don't want it in their community, they want to protest it, which then engenders more escalation.
- [11:31]
B
I do think Portland is chosen specifically, if you remember back, and we've been shocked by how. And I don't know why you guys are, like, subjecting yourself to our horrendous politics, but you do seem to know a lot.
- [11:44]
C
Portland is really far from here.
- [11:46]
B
You know, it's far from us. Like, we're like, portland, which one? Maine. Oregon. But what, because he threatened to invade?
- [11:57]
A
We'll get to that. Don't worry.
- [11:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, but the thing is, back in 2020, Portland was sort of a place of violence and upheaval. And also they were sending not just masks, but, like, unidentified police, and they were grabbing people off the streets. And so they know that Portland does. It's a place that can escalate. It's a place where they're will be pushed back. And so they're going there on purpose because I think they've come into D.C. and they've come into some of these other places and they haven't gotten the images that they want. What they want are a bunch of people who look like they're throwing Molotov cocktails at the military and that. And instead it's a bunch of, like, National Guard people. I mean, we. Sam and I live and work downtown in D.C. and the National Guard is just like, mulching and picking up trash and taking selfies with tourists because everybody, like, we. And there was an enormous march. I marched in it, like, like there was pushing, but it's been completely peaceful. But they are begging for something to pop off.
- [13:03]
A
Have you, have you had ever conversations with people who aren't in D.C. who, like, are totally perplexed and think that if you left the, the house, you get shot? I've had a couple of those where they just assume that D.C. is just absolutely crime ridden, war ravaged, and needs to be subdued.
- [13:20]
B
Not only is that not the case, first of all, where the National Guard has been deployed, there are parts of D.C. like, there are in many major cities where there's a lot of crime. That's not where the cops are, though. They keep going to the National Mall, which is just a bunch of ice cream trucks for the people wherever. And. And there's nobody.
- [13:41]
A
Like, I hate those ice cream trucks.
- [13:42]
B
Yeah. But it's tourists.
- [13:43]
A
I do. But my kid always wants one of those ice creams. It's like $9. Your city might be next, buddy.
- [13:49]
C
New Orleans.
- [13:50]
A
Yeah, he's been talking about it.
- [13:51]
C
Yeah, it's a little bit of A different animal. Right. Because we have a Republican governor. Boo. Who knows the governor of Louisiana. How's our Canadian trivia? There you go. Jeff Landry.
- [14:01]
A
Look at this.
- [14:02]
C
That is crazy that you know, the governor of Louisiana, he's one of our worst governors. He's kind of in the top three, I think, probably worst governors. So he wants it. So I assume we are. But it will kind of be a similar vibe to D.C. right? Like, these guys are going to be on Bourbon street dealing with drunk people throwing up on their shoes. Like, it's going to be the main thing. And, like, the frustrating thing on the serious side of this. Like, again, going back to my other point about how this is performative and how they want escalation. It's like there are things you could do if you were, like, legitimately concerned about crime in New Orleans. Like, for starters, crime in New Orleans is way down. But our senator, one of our senators, John Kennedy, is the one that kind of talks like Foghorn Leghorn. You might have seen him on some of your clips. That guy was on the Senate floor talking about how the Democrats don't want to fund the police and they defunded the police and we need more cops in New Orleans and all this. And so I'm supporting president. If he wants to send troops down there. I'm like, Republicans run Louisiana, for starters. So if you want to fund the police, just fucking fund more police in Louisiana, like, that's fine. And if the feds wanted to put more police in Louisiana, then, okay, like, if you. If there is a rationale for that, they could do that. But they don't want to do that. Right? Like, that's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to do the war theater. They, you know, they want the guys in the. In the, you know, cosplay. They want the guys dressed up in the fatigues and to make Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth feel like wartime leaders. Like, that's the point of this. Progressive knows we all crave validation.
- [15:31]
B
Girl, you are not 37.
- [15:33]
C
I would have guessed 27.
- [15:34]
B
You guys are too sweet.
- [15:36]
C
Sure. Dewy skin.
- [15:37]
B
Terrific.
- [15:38]
C
Um.
- [15:38]
B
Is something wrong, Ned? Why would you ask?
- [15:40]
A
Just because Today marks my 10th anniversary without a car accident or even a speeding ticket, but somehow tonight's all about your skincare.
- [15:48]
C
Wow. With snapshot from Progressive, you can get a personalized rate based on how you drive, and that's all the validation you need. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate snapshot not available in California from all agents Search possible for unsafe Driving.
- [16:00]
A
I want to bring this conversation in a different direction than here and then last night, a little bit more forward looking. I guess the question confronting people who oppose this stuff is how do you oppose this stuff? What do you do to get beyond this? And you know, this is a constant point of debate for us, but for, I'm assuming all of you guys, what is the actual best play for the opposition here? And I'll start with Tim, because Tim had. I don't know if you guys saw this. Tim was on tv.
- [16:32]
C
People have alerts for my social media feeds. They've seen everything.
- [16:37]
A
It's like a dog collar that buzzes you if you don't watch.
- [16:41]
C
Tim has tweeted.
- [16:42]
A
Tim's tweeted. Please pay attention. Tim was on with a real cast of characters. I don't know why you do this show. Piers Morgan. Why was Carrie Lake on that show? Carrie Lake, Isn't she governor? Yeah. Still governor and head of voa. Carrie Lake. But he. But you talked and you can.
- [17:01]
C
You didn't mention Eric Bollinger. He had been like. Looked like he'd had a wasp sting.
- [17:05]
B
Yeah.
- [17:06]
A
Or he'd been in the sun for like eight hours straight. But you can explain what you said, but it went viral for a particular reason, which was, I think it was just because everyone's so fucking tired and they just want to get to a place where it's a little bit more sane. But why don't you talk about what you said in case people haven't seen it and then we can use that as a jumping off point for what is to do what we need to do here.
- [17:28]
C
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, part of the reason I did is because I've been in my feelings a lot after the Kirk assassination and just like wanted to go on to one of these crazy screaming shows and like bring a different perspective on there. I just felt like maybe the people needed to hear me. So maybe that's megalomania. I don't know. But that was part of the reason. But I just, I feel like there is, you know, like there is a desire. There's a big desire out there, which I totally get, which is kind of this anti fascist desire. Like, we need to fight fire with fire. Fuck Michelle Obama. We gotta go low. And like, I'm for fighting fire with fire. You know, I like what Gavin Newsom has been doing. I want these guys to be more aggressive. But I also think that there is a. That at times that can have a deleterious effect on the intended effect like, it makes you feel good, like, more than it does anything to convince other people. And I just think that in this moment, like, there are a lot of regular people out there that are actually, like, not on board with a Christian nationalist crackdown on speech. Like, that's not what they are for. Like, maybe they voted for Trump because they were annoyed at woke stuff or because their fucking eggs cost too much or like, whatever, because they weren't informed enough. But there's been a series of events between Jimmy Kimmel and then now the President and the Vice President trying to target people who have wrong speak about Charlie Kirk. And now there are going to be troops in the streets. And now you haven't even mentioned we're bombing Venezuela now, apparently, good news, we're not bombing Ottawa. We're going to Venezuela first. We're going to be bombing Venezuela. And I just think that there are a lot of people on there that are like, I don't want this. I do not want to, you know, our country to descend into a civil war. There are too many people that do want it. But I just wanted to go on there and try to, like, inject that into the conversation in the hopes. And I'm trying to do more of this. I did. I've done. I've done one barstool interview. I'm doing a couple more with barstool people. Well, just like talking to people that are a little bit detached from our internal fucking civil war and being like, these guys are crazy, actually, like, you don't want this. Like, you don't want these people in charge that are trying to incite internal civil war. And I think that that is at least one component of fighting back against this. I think there are other areas where they obviously have to be more aggressive on with the kill in D.C. and from the legal standpoint and going to protests, there are a lot of different tactics that could be used. But I think that might be one way to reach out to regulars who are not at 1 o' clock watching a live podcast on the weekend, you know.
- [20:04]
A
Yeah, I just want to. I don't want it to go by, but I want to thank the person who tepidly clapped about us bombing Venezuela, not Canada. Whoever that was out there. Seemed like a nervous clap, like, yeah, I guess someone described it. And Sarah, I want Ottawa.
- [20:22]
C
I pronounced it wrong. Ottawa.
- [20:23]
A
Ottawa. It's Toronto, by the way, not Toronto.
- [20:25]
C
Toronto.
- [20:25]
A
They figured that one out. I did my homework.
- [20:30]
C
Toronto, Sarah.
- [20:32]
A
Someone described it as a platform of social cohesion versus social rupture. You do all these focus groups is that, like, are people just yearning for something different, less argumentative, more sane, or do they want the fire?
- [20:49]
C
You can say it.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah.
- [20:51]
C
Do people want social rupture?
- [20:54]
B
No, they don't want social rupture.
- [20:55]
A
Okay, good.
- [20:57]
C
Are you sure?
- [20:57]
B
Yeah, I'm pretty. I mean, most people do not want social rupture. And obviously, as with any focus group that you're talking about, it's like, it depends. It depends on what groups you're talking to. But, like, we did a group. It's actually Will Sommer and I. There's an episode out right now, and Will's been doing this amazing work for us. He writes this newsletter, False Flag, but he has been tracking the far right. And so we did a bunch of Gen Z focus groups with these young MAGA voters and asked in the wake of Charlie Kirk, you know what they think?
- [21:27]
C
Oh, my God.
- [21:28]
B
And.
- [21:31]
C
I will not be listening to that one on the.
- [21:32]
B
Did you already listen to the episode? Yeah. Okay, so. So it's. It's. Here's the thing. It is. They're not saying, I want to go out and kill everybody. Mostly what they're saying, or they're not saying, I want to be at war with people. They're saying, actually, you know, I have friends who are trans, or I have friends who are gay, or my leftist friends. And they genuinely feel like they are the victims in a social situation where people are attacking them in their worldview. And so they feel. Then this is replete on the right, where they feel like they have a grievance. They are the ones being attacked. They are very attached to this narrative. But mostly people are not out there saying, like, I wanna. Yes, we want the whole thing to crumble. Here's the problem. Normal people are just regular, everyday people. And it's the reason I get a lot of mail being like, how can you listen to these idiots? And why do you care about what they say? And I'll be like, cause most of the regular people are kind of normal. They're just a function of the garbage that's being pumped into them. And our elites, though, there are people fomenting civil war that are in their ears all the time. And that is our Republican legislators. It is the tech oligarchs. And that is because there is a massive push in the United States where they see this idea of, hey, if you can get Trump to burn it all down, I can be in charge. Like, that's how Elon thinks. And so they are trying to be in charge of the Information stream so that they can push people where they want them to go. But people, then this is it for me. It's always like, I can see the essential goodness, the essential reasonable reasonableness, but I also can very clearly hear what they are ingesting all day long. And it is. Let me tell you what. So they view Charlie Kirk as a moderate. They saw that. Yeah, right. They saw him as a moderating force to the other influencers that are in their ears all the time. And most of them were listening to Candace Owens, to Nick Fuentes. I mean, there was a guy who was deep in Nick Fuentes, talking about how, you know, I have Jewish friends who turn me on to Nick Fuentes and whatever.
- [23:43]
C
It's like, I went to this Canadian YouTuber thing yesterday with some local guys who are, like, all, like, 25 or something. I went to their house and they were asking me if I never. I still. I can't remember the fucking guy's name. But I was like. I was like. They're like, have you heard of Sam Harvey? And I was like, no. And they're like, really? And I said, yeah. And they're like, he's got 3 million YouTube subscribers. And I was like, okay, what's he been up to? And he's, like, fomenting war in America and, like, doing revenge on Charlie Kirk. And, like, they're showing me the video. I mean, so, like, they're consumed. This stuff is being fed to them. Like, there is a connection between, like, the bad information and these dangerous, pernicious influencers online. But to your point, it's like the tech oligarchs that are, like, pumping that sludge to these guys, like, they're not getting. They're not being. They're not getting the CBC. They're not getting Sam's interview on the CBC yesterday at 7:45am it's not making it into their feed.
- [24:33]
A
Did you guys see that? How good was that?
- [24:35]
C
Look at that. A lot of CBC viewers in here. And we appreciate you that.
- [24:39]
A
I gotta be honest, the CBC interview guy was. That was so. It felt so unnatural because I'm so.
- [24:45]
C
Used to you on YouTube every day.
- [24:46]
A
It was, like, very straightforward. Tried cracking a joke. And he did not laugh at all.
- [24:52]
C
Humorless Canadians.
- [24:53]
A
I was like, I might not come back. He's like, ha, ha ha. So, okay, two questions off of this. One's tactical. This is both directed for what should Democrats do tactically? What should they do to get out from under this algorithmic shitstorm, for lack of a better word? And two Is I guess more sort of operational or policy oriented. I mean we have these endless debates about abundance versus not abundance, you know, lefty versus centrist, populist versus pragmatist. I have my own thoughts, I'll save them. Let's start with the tactical though, because it seems almost impossible to break through in a climate where all the oligarchs, all the major media owners feel like they have to kowtow to Trump or they just like Trump.
- [25:40]
B
I'm just going to do this really fast, but last night Sam, we had like a bit where Sam read 10 insane news items just from the last month. Each one of them would have been enormously jarring and disruptive.
- [25:55]
C
What was like seven Watergates and then three other scandals.
- [25:59]
A
And so he said Iran contrast.
- [26:01]
B
And then he asked us, he was asking Tim and I and we didn't, we didn't know them but he was saying, well, which one is the scares you the most? And both of us picked the same one. And it was the Trump having his allies now own TikTok. Right. Because if what I'm saying is true and the information stream is what is poisoning people, Republicans have decided they are going to own the information stream. You've got Ellison, he's given Barry Weiss the keys over at cbs. They are going after now to buy Time Warner which owns cnn like they are trying. And then you've got Meta and all of these, the Washington Post, all of these institutions are now being run with Trump allies or people who want to suck up to Trump. So that means they are going to dominate the information stream. And the thing that frustrates me about Democrats is the absolute lack of creativity around any of this. Like, oh, is Warner Brothers for sale? Are there no Democratic multibillionaires? I know there are. Why don't you guys go buy Warner Brothers? Yes, I know cable news is dying, but you could probably still squeak a few billion out over the course of the next 10 years while also transferring it into a new media company that doesn't deal in this toxic bullshit and build new media companies. The right built an entire right wing media ecosystem that's not closed narrative ecosystem where they all just feed off of each other and there's no equivalent on the left. It's just like a few people on MSNBC and us on MSNBC yelling about things and so like if Democrats can't figure out not just communications but how to play in the world of narrative dominance, like they're going to get run over.
- [27:36]
C
Yeah, I don't need to do and another thing on that, because I think it relates to the second part of your question on the ideology, because I think that they need to try a bunch of different things. Also, when it comes to politics, I feel like there is, you know, everyone has their prior preference. You know what I mean? Like, I would love it if it was a successful path for the Democrats to have libertarian Colorado Governor Jared Polis, a gay libertarian who's mild mannered. Would that be the model? Like, that would be what I would. Like that'd be great for me. Do I think that's gonna work? I do not. Right. And what. I think that what they need to do is try a bunch of different shit. And this is where I give Gavin credit. I'm not Gavin's biggest fan, but, like, the election ended, a lot of the Democrats are like, ooh, I don't know what to do. Maybe we should do this. Maybe we should be quiet. We shouldn't talk about immigration. And Gavin was just like, fuck it. I'm gonna try a bunch of things. I'm gonna interview Steve Bannon and be nice to him. Nope, that doesn't work. Okay, we're not gonna do that anymore. I'm gonna make fun of Trump and tweet in all caps and like, oh, does that. That works? And like, oh, I'm gonna gerrymander myself. Fuck you. That is like, I want that ethos spread across the whole party. Like, and I want the. In campaigns for Senate is the Bernie Ish. Aoc. Ish populist left person that's like a little gruff. Could that work? And has some like. And dia emphasizes social issues. Could that work? Maybe? Let's try it. Let's try it. Like, should we run more Josh Shapiro type moderate Democrats in these places? Should that work? Maybe, I don't know. Let's try. Should we run celebrities who are kind of like a ciphers? It's like, kind of hard to tell what their position is on issues. Maybe.
- [29:12]
B
Do you mean cipher?
- [29:13]
C
What did I say? Thank you.
- [29:16]
A
First auto.
- [29:16]
C
Several live corrections. You know what I really like? It's a beautiful part about success and we appreciate all of you guys. But now when I something up, Instead of getting two messages from people, I get like 70. So I love to have this. I love the 67th person to correct my. My history mistake.
- [29:33]
A
Do you still get the. The mom and dad correction?
- [29:36]
C
You know, I get those all the time. Are you from your parents? Yeah.
- [29:39]
A
No, I get them from me. Yeah, but if my mom had your email, she would definitely correct you.
- [29:42]
C
Please have Dr. Fine, email me. No, my parents are scared to correct me at this point. They're kind of scared of me. So anyway, I want them to try a bunch of different shit, and I want them to see what works and try different, like, media strategies. And I just think that, like, what you're getting right now is very limp and very rote.
- [29:59]
A
Let me test a theory about you guys, and you can smack it down. If it sucks, do it. Every election is a reaction to the last election. It just is. I mean, you can make the case that there's no Donald Trump if there isn't Barack Obama first, right? You can make case there's no Barack Obama if there wasn't George W. Bush first. What's the reaction to the current moment? Right. And this goes back to what you were saying. I think the reaction to the current moment, honestly, is this. I want off this ride. I want off this ride. Things have gotten crazy. You disagree, But I think the reaction is, this is too much. We need to actually stop being at each other's throats. We need to. And I was. It's weird. The algorithm works in funny ways in these sites. I was fed a Bill Clinton speech from 1991 last night on my Twitter for you is, what the hell?
- [30:45]
C
I mean, the Chinese are just micro targeting you, though, for that. That might be. That might be more about you than.
- [30:50]
A
The famous new choice.
- [30:51]
B
You were like, this guy sounds amazing, but he did.
- [30:54]
A
It was crazy. It was the DLC speech, and it was about a new choice. It was like, we can't keep doing this. We can't keep doing this. And I just feel like there's a yearning for that right now that no one is really tapping into. But you seem to think I'm wrong.
- [31:07]
B
Sorry. No. The part that I think is wrong is that I do think that there is a sense, and I think Biden made this miscalculation that people just are exhausted by Trump talking at them all the time. And I do think that was true after the first term, partly because of COVID There was a sense of like, this guy sucks and is nuts and he never shuts up.
- [31:25]
C
Stuck in my house. He's on TV all the time.
- [31:27]
B
He's on TV all the time. Except it built up a new level of expectation for how politicians were going to engage with you. And so when Biden came in and was noticeably absent, not just absent for a regular president, which I think he was, but like, in terms of where people now had set their expectations of how much a president does talk to them, how much he communicates with them. People were like, I think he's dead. Like, he's just, he must be dead, because I'm used to being talked to all the time. And so I do think people's nervous systems have ratcheted up in terms of how much they expect to hear from a president. I think we have entered into a new environment where people like, there's a reason maybe Canadians could do it, but Americans couldn't name most of Joe Biden's cabinet. However, they could name most of Donald Trump's cabinet because they're all on TV and social media all the time communicating with people. And so just I push back on the notion that people are like, I want to get off this ride now. What I will say, though, is people do have a natural appetite to not want to hate each other. Like, the sustained hatred over time does start to make people feel a little bit sick. And so the idea that somebody could come with a very different message, but it would have to be communicated vociferously, the very different message that is more unifying, more broad based. I do think there's an appetite for that.
- [32:52]
A
What's your sense of Trump's biggest vulnerability then?
- [32:57]
B
Well, yeah, this actuarial table.
- [33:01]
A
Beyond the ankles.
- [33:05]
B
Because he can't be elected. I mean, I know Lindsey Graham's running around in a Trump 2028 hat, and a lot of people would like to make that happen. But can I just tell you that that is the hopeful part? They don't have another plan. They don't have another person. And the thing that Democrats can do is recognize right now what you hear in focus groups is a bunch of people. I don't know if you listen to the one with Hispanics, but nobody has dropped more on Trump than Hispanic voters. They're out on him. Problem is, if you ask them, hey, if you could rerun the 2024 election, would you vote for Trump again? They'll say, no. Wish I hadn't voted for him. Oh, do you wish you'd voted for Kamala Harris? Nah, I just wouldn't have voted.
- [33:45]
C
Great, great. This is where I'm counter to the anti to the pro democracy movement. Everybody doesn't need to vote. In Canada, probably, yes, Canadians are wise, you know, but in America, we've got a big swath of people that, like, just hanging out is fine for you. That's an upgrade. If more people have done that, we might be in better shape right now.
- [34:08]
B
We do have this crazy movement in the United States where people are always saying, can you believe, you know, that only this percentage of people vote. But the fact is we have now, in every election over the last decade since Trump came out, we have set every record for voting. And I do not think it is because our democracy is healthier. So I do not think those things.
- [34:26]
A
Civic engagement, please.
- [34:27]
B
Can I answer the policy question really quickly though, which is I do think that Democrats have to learn a couple of lessons that people that Democrats are not going to like. And so I'm going to tell you, yeah, I'm going to tell you the parts I think they need to compromise on to go our way and then the ones where I think I would certainly be willing to compromise to go their way. I do think Democrats are gonna have to figure out a message on the border and on crime that is not like they have to have an actual people. Americans have decided they want a less like they Americans all say the same thing. We want people to do it the right way. They say that without having any understanding of what it actually means to come the right way. But you cannot just let borders be open. You cannot let cities because the cities with that there is a lot of crime. And like the reason the D.C. governor was basically like, okay, come in. Basically conceding that she couldn't handle crime, which is actually absurd. They could have done.
- [35:29]
C
I should relate to this. They're thinking about a wall now.
- [35:32]
B
Yeah, I don't blame you.
- [35:33]
C
It's important to have borders.
- [35:34]
B
You should, because Trump will need, you know, the Epstein stuff will come back and Trump will need to change the subject. And we're invading Canada again. The place where I'm ready to compromise though is on the economic side. I think somebody who says, look, we got to, we got it. We got to fund police officers, we've got to reinvest in education. Like a big spending Democrat who talks about the places they're going to invest in order to prove Americans improve Americans lives and also is just more economically populist, like an aoc. But I do think they've got to get right on the social issues and I do think crime and immigration are things that Democrats have got to grapple with.
- [36:08]
C
I agree with all that. I've got a different area I'm going to compromise on though. Neocon Tim is ready to compromise. Democrats got to go lefty against him on war stuff. Donald Trump somehow became the anti war candidate. I know that's absurd to everybody in this room. It's absurd to anybody that like reads. But it worked. It worked. He ended up getting Horseshoe voters, young Voters, you hear this in focus groups. I hear this from young voters I talk to. The perception was that Kamala was part of the military establishment and Trump was the anti war candidate. And that's not popular. It's not a winner. And I think that without going crazy on some of the anti Semitic stuff, like the Democrats can get left of him on Israel, which is a popular position right now, and they can get left of him broadly on war stuff. We're fucking bombing. Doing bombing in the Caribbean, like that is bad. And Democrats right now, this is another example of where they're scared. Why is it the neocon saying this? Shouldn't the Democrats be out there screaming about this? Like, this is insane. We're starting a war against Venezuela in the Caribbean. Why are we doing this? They're scared to do it because they don't wanna look like they're soft on drugs or whatever. It's like, no, we can arrest fucking drug dealers and not also bomb boats out of the Caribbean. We should not be looking at options for invading Venezuela. And I think that that's a big opportunity for them as well. And I think it's a vulnerability for him.
- [37:24]
A
I'll just note before we get to our next segment on your point message on crime and Borders, Bill Clinton, 91.
- [37:31]
C
Your man, my man.
- [37:33]
A
That era, Bill Clinton, not the 97. Monica Lewinsky era. Okay. All right.
- [37:37]
C
He also might be in the Epstein files, by the way. I'm thinking about throwing him overboard if it's part of the trade.
- [37:43]
A
We have a segment here since it's all Trump all the time.
- [37:47]
C
Yeah. Who's that for? Okay, thank you.
- [37:51]
A
Okay, this. This is a segment. I have the answers here. It's a Trump quote game. Okay. We're going to play some quotes.
- [38:00]
C
This is fun.
- [38:01]
A
And these two have to decide whether they are real or made up. We're calling it true. Don't quote me on that.
- [38:10]
C
I'd like to. The other name, eh or nay?
- [38:14]
A
That was too offensive. Sorry.
- [38:18]
B
You know what show prep is like. It's just us sitting back there being like, which one of these is funnier?
- [38:22]
C
I'm liking.
- [38:23]
A
All right, let's.
- [38:23]
C
I'm doing a. Or na.
- [38:25]
A
All right, here we go, folks. Let's hope the. Let's hope the tech works here. Let's play clip number one. The full session, unfortunately, is only available to those who are paying members. But look, become a paying member. It's pretty easy. You can join bulwark on substack, YouTube, or in Apple podcasts. You get extra content like this but most importantly, you're helping us stay independent. You're keeping this administration accountable, you're supporting great journalism. It's really worth it. So, look, if you like an outlet where there's no corporate cowards telling us or you what you should read or say or how to think, support the Bulwark. Become a Borg member.