Sam Sanders (2:01)

Okay.

Zach Stafford (2:02)

Yeah. And New Orleans has Tim Miller, so it's so great to have you. For listeners who don't know, Tim Miller is an incredible person I followed his work for many, many years. And Tim Miller is one of the few MSNBC opinion people that my mom texts me about being like, how's Tim doing? It's okay. She one day text me, she goes, tim looks tired. I said, mom, we aren't that close. Like, let's just be clear.

Sam Sanders (2:23)

I know your mom to be nicer.

Zach Stafford (2:24)

No, she's being nice. She was just like, he's on. I forget what happened, Tim, but you'd been working so much and she was like, he looks tired, he needs to go rest. Like, she like thinks of you as her child.

Tim Miller (2:32)

So anyway, eye cream recommendations for me, you know, because I do, I get them. I get those bags. I get what my mom calls the Uncle Al's, you know, and so when I'm tired, you can see it. I need a new. I need kind of a new makeup regimen.

Sam Sanders (2:46)

You know what's been Blessing me at 40 was that. No, didn't know about its powers to like the last year or two. I slathered that stuff on, man.

Tim Miller (2:55)

Okay.

Sam Sanders (2:55)

It's wild.

Tim Miller (2:56)

I'm taking notes.

Zach Stafford (2:58)

Well, Tim is here to do a really big Trump episode with us, guys. You know, Trump has been on a rampage of many sorts and we want to go deep into what it all means, specifically from a gay point of view. So today we'll be diving in first about the normal gays who vote for Trump and why they all believe Trump is the most gay president ever. Which I can't wait to talk to Tim about, cuz I've been around Trump and he has some flamboyant tendencies, but I never thought of him as the most gay president.

Sam Sanders (3:25)

He's given Queen on the scene all the time. He should do drag. He should do drag.

Tim Miller (3:31)

He does drag.

Sam Sanders (3:32)

So performative.

Tim Miller (3:34)

Pia's already doing Dragon. Mean. Have you ever seen him without the makeup? He's a completely different person. He's already doing. His musical tastes are way gayer than mine. I mean, set list that he puts on at his, at his rallies. Like, it could be, it could be like the Marie's Crisis set list.

Zach Stafford (3:51)

That's. That's true.

Sam Sanders (3:52)

Okay, what's his drag name? Tim.

Tim Miller (3:57)

Oh, boy, now you're really putting me on the spot. I'm not gonna come up with take.

Sam Sanders (4:00)

The whole episode to think about it. Take your time. Take your time. Well, we'll come back to that.

Zach Stafford (4:04)

Yeah, we'll come back to that. But before we come back to that, we're going to talk about the Democrats and where are they? They're definitely not at Trump's drag brunch, you know, for thinking of him as a drag queen. They're not showing up to that or doing much there. So we're going to ask Tim, where are they and what should they be doing and what should we all be doing to deal with the new Trump administration? But before we get into all of that, let's do our typical check in. So, ladies, Tim, our new lady of the court. How you doing? How's life? Are you arrested?

Tim Miller (4:30)

Hey, ladies. I'm feeling better now. I don't get to call boys ladies on my YouTube.

Zach Stafford (4:34)

Why not?

Tim Miller (4:35)

I don't know. I should. I do that with all the other, all the other boys.

Sam Sanders (4:38)

You're wearing pearls like go there.

Tim Miller (4:40)

I know. They're all, they're all just given so het, you know, at the Bulwark, besides me. So I love it. My vibe, ladies, is like the closer in my home. It's great. New Orleans, the vibe is great. I already mentioned it. You know, we've got, we've got some good stuff coming up that can be a distraction for everything once you get outside Orleans Parish. I think the vibe is pretty shaky out there, but that's kind of how.

Sam Sanders (5:07)

I'm doing about that. I'm very curious as to what you experience once you leave the parish.

Tim Miller (5:13)

Well, I just mean that look like I moved here in part because I have a lot of friends who don't care about politics and I mean, who care about it at a, at a basic level that everybody does, who aren't political junkies, I guess is a better way of putting it. You know, they have other interests and I know them from my pre politics life. And so it's like good for me to be here, you know, So I got my little 7 year old, we get to go to the basketball court, we go over to friend's house, we go to the crawfish boil. Like, life is good. You know, the trump of it all is, is hanging over us, but not as heavily as, as elsewhere. And you know, I don't know, man. Once I go up to Baton Rouge though, for a football game, there's a lot of, it's a lot of stuff around. And then, you know, once I get outside of my, my IRL life and get onto the Internet and get onto the, get onto the tubes and have started having to talk to people, you know, I mean, it's just, it's bad out there. I mean, I think that, I think that we're going to go through a pretty rocky period for there's Going to. I think it's going to actually be worse than the first time around. So, you know, that's why I've got my little bubble of vibes here. But, yeah, to try to keep saying, but besides that, I think it's going to be a little rocky. I don't know.

Sam Sanders (6:23)

As the left is saying right now, you got to preserve and build your own community. You got to do it.

Tim Miller (6:30)

Community. I'm out here community organizing. Me and. Me and Barack Obama. Who would have thought?

Zach Stafford (6:35)

I love that. Well, Sam, how are you doing today? You're in the studio.

Sam Sanders (6:40)

I'm in the studio. I'm sipping hot tea and not coffee because I'm on the verge of getting sick. But I rebuke that. Not gonna happen. I don't speak life to that. But my bigger vibe is I have had two conversations unexpectedly, that I feel might show the way forward for Democrats between now and the midterms. On two separate occasions, I've either mentioned eggs or just been seen with a dozen eggs, and it's all anyone wants to talk about.

Zach Stafford (7:10)

Mm.

Sam Sanders (7:10)

I was taping a podcast with our friend Lacy Moseley of Scam Goddess. I mentioned having scrambled eggs. This led to a five minute discussion of, damn, how rich are you? And then I said, I scrambled my eggs in bacon grease. And she was like, oh, 1% bitch. She wanted to talk about it and talk about the politics of it. All right. Then I'm in the grocery store the other day getting stuff. I got my eggs at the checkout line. The lady behind me is like, mm, a dozen eggs must be nice. Then the cashier starts talking about it. Then the guy in line behind the lady starts talking about it. Then we all start talking about the eggs and the price of eggs, all looking at each other, deciding how much we can talk about politics. And then me, you know me, Zach, I'm a talk. We start talking about Trump and tariffs in the checkout line. And it made me say to myself.

Tim Miller (8:01)

This is not real.

Zach Stafford (8:03)

No, Tim, this is Sam Sanders.

Sam Sanders (8:07)

You're at the Piggly Pavilions on Jefferson. Pavilions on Jefferson in Los Angeles. And then we just start talking about fucking eggs and, like, politics. And I was like, oh, my God, why aren't Democrats talking about eggs every goddamn day? Okay, so why are Democrats talking about eggs every goddamn day?

Zach Stafford (8:23)

Okay, so two things. One, I agree with you. We should talk more about eggs. I was in Utah recently for, like 10 days. I walked into a Target, saw that eggs were $12 in Utah and pace in Utah, and I said, I Get it. I, too, maybe would have considered Donald Trump in this moment. If I lived in pace in Utah. I would have been like, okay, whatever. What have the Democrats done for me lately? Not my scrambled eggs, but two to Sam Sanders. Talkative point, Tim. What you should know about SA Sam Sanders is that he will talk to anyone in public, at length about anything.

Sam Sanders (8:49)

And I'll cancel plans to talk to a stranger if it gets going. All this to say, I feel like Democrats are, like, lost right now, and we'll talk more about it. They don't have.

Tim Miller (9:01)

I just want to. I want to focus on you for one second, because I feel like I'm in, like, the top 2% of for extroversion. I'm, like, very chatty. I love chatting with strangers. I love. I like humans.

Sam Sanders (9:13)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (9:14)

Like, your story, though, feels insane to me.

Sam Sanders (9:17)

It felt insane to me, too, because I wasn't trying to talk to women.

Tim Miller (9:19)

I'm talking to somebody about tariffs in the. Like, you managed to turn purchasing eggs into a tariff conversation. Right?

Sam Sanders (9:26)

He looked at me.

Tim Miller (9:28)

And then you canceled your plan.

Sam Sanders (9:30)

I didn't cancel those plans, but I'm saying I would. All I'm saying is, by the time I left that checkout line, we had mentioned politics briefly. And I'm just saying that, like, I want Democrats to think about.

Tim Miller (9:41)

Once you had your eggs, like, once you had paid, did you continue the conversation? A little bit. She was getting rung up. Did you sit there and continue the conversation?

Sam Sanders (9:50)

Yes.

Zach Stafford (9:51)

Yeah.

Sam Sanders (9:51)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (9:53)

Inspired to. I thought I was. I thought I was friendly.

Sam Sanders (9:55)

That's.

Tim Miller (9:56)

That's another one.

Sam Sanders (9:57)

Here's my larger point. Here's my larger point. And this is like, the vibe that I'm thinking about. It's like, how do Democrats find a way to talk about a thing that everyone is willing to engage in? Like that. Left, right, center, whatever. It's like, what is it? And I'm kind of like, is it just the fricking price of stuff? Is it the price of eggs? The price of groceries? I remember when I was a kid, whenever my mother wanted to just, like, shut down a conversation, she would just say, well, what does that have to do with the price of eggs? And she'd say it, and you'd be like, oh, yeah, you're right. I just. I don't know. I'm stuck on the eggs this week. I'm rambling now, but, like, I'm stuck on the fucking eggs. It's, It's. It's about people's money. Can we talk about fucking X? Can you get AOC in the capital rotunda, holding a dozen eggs very carefully.

Tim Miller (10:41)

You don't want to die.

Zach Stafford (10:42)

Yeah, that would be a mess in a lot of different ways.

Sam Sanders (10:45)

I've rambled now, Zach, what is your vibe? Are you talking to.

Zach Stafford (10:49)

Oh, wait. I have been talking to strangers. And that's what brings me to a point. I want to tell Tim on the mic, which is a compliment. I, as people know, go on my morning walks. I get up really early. I walk. I listen to podcasts for the past week.

Sam Sanders (11:01)

Get your Starbucks.

Zach Stafford (11:02)

Yep, My Starbucks. Wow. Expose me. I actually don't anymore. I used to.

Sam Sanders (11:05)

And I'm not even having Starbucks in the meeting yesterday.

Zach Stafford (11:07)

Well, because. Wow. We are. Really. Yeah. So one, I have gotten a pot. I don't know why Sam's coming at me so aggressively, because he just talked about eggs. But two points. I did have a Starbucks yesterday because I was running late and had to go to Starbucks. Sorry about that. But I have. Look at this cup. This is not a Starbucks cup. That's coffee. Because I learned how.

Sam Sanders (11:26)

Sorry, that was not nice.

Zach Stafford (11:27)

You're fine. You're fine. We have moved on. We have a pot. That's beautiful. And now my partner makes coffee in the morning, and it's wonderful. This is not the point. I was out for a walk the other day, and I got stopped by some vibe check listeners, and they were like, oh, my God, you're walking. What's up? We'd met at a live show. We're kiking. Kiking. And I was listening to Tim Miller in my ear talking to Ezra Klein. And I was, like, giggling because I feel like you came at Ezra Klein in the funniest ways. That just really cracked me.

Sam Sanders (11:53)

You started out being like, I like your colleague better. I like the guy you work with better.

Zach Stafford (11:57)

Like, it's true.

Tim Miller (11:59)

People need to nag Ezra. All right, this is. I feel like it's my. I feel like in my. One thing that I can bring to my new friends now that, you know, I hang out with Libs, is like, Libs are just so agreeable and nice all the time, and, like, it's okay to just give somebody a little shit, you know?

Zach Stafford (12:13)

I agree. That's why Sam.

Tim Miller (12:15)

Who gives Ezra shit? Nobody gives Ezra. It's always like, ezra, so great. Ezra so smart, like, he deserves.

Sam Sanders (12:19)

Can I tell you an Ezra secret? I mean, not a secret for him. I know some folks who work at the New York Times, and we gossip. All journalists gossip. And they call Ezra Klein's recent glow up. You know, the facial hair has Changed. He's gotten a little, you know, more glamorous for the camera. He's a bigger star. They call his glow up getting barbaroed. He got barbaroed. That's what they say at the Times.

Zach Stafford (12:43)

Wait, that's breaking news? That is. Yes. That's amazing.

Sam Sanders (12:49)

He full bar borrowed.

Zach Stafford (12:50)

Well, he has, he has gotten pretty hot. The new camera angles for his show. Bravo production dollars well spent, everybody at the New York Times. But you were gagging me over how you were handling him. So I'm like giggling to myself, walking. I get stopped by some vibe check listeners and I say, oh, I'm listening to Tim Miller and Ezra Klein in conversation. And I was like, oh, you know he's gonna be on our show this week, Tim Miller. And this one white woman goes, I won't say her name. She goes, I don't know who he is. Let me pull him up. And she opens up your podcast. She goes, oh, he's cute. You know me, I do anything for a white man. And I was like, what is this a black woman? No, it was a white woman and I died. Like, she was like, a white woman.

Sam Sanders (13:26)

Said white do anything for a white man.

Zach Stafford (13:28)

I'm like paraphrasing, I may be embellishing that, but she was like, I love a basic. Not a basic. She was like, I'm a basic white girl. I love a white man. So I was like, okay, girl. Tim basic.

Tim Miller (13:37)

What are you talking.

Zach Stafford (13:37)

She did not, for the record, call Tim basic. She said he was very handsome and I was like, oh, okay. She called herself basic in anyway. So Tim, thank you for coming to the show. You must bring good energy because I'm getting stopped in the streets with people saying that you're so handsome.

Tim Miller (13:50)

So I, I will take it. I, I mean, you know, it would have been a little bit better of a story if you're like in West Hollywood and you're like, I was talking to this, you know, 28 year old post twink and he was like, oh, he's so handsome. Like, that would have been like, really? What? But hey, moms. Moms that they're handsome. I, we have, we appreciate moms too.

Zach Stafford (14:08)

You got it. You gotta get em it. And she was in like our general age range, so she like, if you decided to go back to being straight, she's available.

Tim Miller (14:14)

Oh, okay. All right.

Zach Stafford (14:15)

Well, that's as a possibility. But anyway, beyond that, I'm very excited for today and excited to jump in here for those listening who are asking where Saeed Jones Sai Jones is at Harvard in conversation with Roxane Gay for the next few days, which you can watch live on Zoom, I believe. So Google that. I don't know where it's at.

Tim Miller (14:32)

Yeah, I know you know. Arvord. Roxane Gay. Come on.

Zach Stafford (14:38)

Don't even talk to Tim Miller. He's like, you know, I'm not having that conversation. I'm going to Harvard. No, he did want to be here today. He loves Tim Miller. So he will be back with us another time. And Syd will be joining us.

Tim Miller (14:51)

I like him better. Nezra, too.

Sam Sanders (14:57)

Before we get into this episode, we want to thank all of you who keep listening to this show each and every week. Thank you. Be sure to check us out on Amazon Music where there are new episodes. And don't forget to email us anytime@vibecheckstitcher.com and if you want more of us, go to our pumpkin patch. We are on Patreon. Patreon.com vibecheck for the last few days, I've been posting to the group chat in the Patreon, my favorite obscure Prince tracks, demos, warmups, sound checks. We're going deep because the halftime show of this last few days has made me think a lot about Prince, who's had the greatest halftime show of all time. Remember him doing Purple Rain in the rain? Iconic not to make it about him. Let's move on from talking about a prince to talking about a queen. Donald Trump. Shall we? Who.

Zach Stafford (15:47)

Who thinks he is a king? Look at that.

Sam Sanders (15:52)

Look at us, Paul.

Zach Stafford (15:53)

Red Bull.

Sam Sanders (15:54)

Okay. Okay with that. Let's talk more about eggs. Let's jump in.

Zach Stafford (15:59)

Let's do it. Ad break. Da da. All right, listeners, first up, we're talking about the gays and Donald Trump. So we're diving. Let me do it again. So, listeners, today we're diving into the alarming and escalating attacks on LGBTQ rights under Trump's second administration. So since returning to office, Trump has wasted no time in enacting policies that directly target our community. From reinstating the ban on transgender military service to removing federal funding for gender affirming care, his administration is systematically rolling back progress. He's even gone as far as issuing an executive order mandating that the federal government recognize only two states sexes, erasing trans identity entirely, and purging LGBTQ content from from federal websites. These moves align disturbingly with the roadmap laid out by Project 2025, a Conservative manifesto that aims to reshape America by dismantling hard won rights. So, ladies, how did we get Here. And, Tim, I'm very interested in hearing how you talk about this because you've worked so much with the Republican Party and have seen how we've built a roadmap to this moment. So you go first. What do you think of this moment? Is it shocking? Is it more cute than the last time? How do you look at all of this?

Tim Miller (17:08)

Yeah. Oh, man. And there's a lot there. And I forgot to mention the fact that he's renaming Queens also New York. That's going to.

Zach Stafford (17:15)

Wait. He is.

Sam Sanders (17:16)

Wait. Last I heard was Gulf of America or whatever.

Tim Miller (17:20)

America and now Kings. That was just a bad joke.

Zach Stafford (17:24)

Oh, my God.

Sam Sanders (17:25)

I would have believed it, though, given what this man has been doing. I would have believed it. Only believed it.

Tim Miller (17:31)

Here's the thing. I think in this situation, it's important to really, like, disaggregate the attack on trans folks because they're specifically trying to divide people in the LGBT community. And that's. They've said so, and it's working. One of the memos. This one is not a joke. Was that. I forget if it was State Department or which of the departments was going to, you know, just put lgbt.

Sam Sanders (17:58)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, right.

Tim Miller (17:59)

Like, it's. No, they're no longer writing LGBT when, you know, you're talking about, you know, when it's kind of relevant to whatever the directive is for the agency. So, like, they're saying this explicitly. They're trying to divide the community. The attacks are on. Are on trans folks most overtly, particularly the military ban that you mentioned. And I think that this time they feel like they have the culture on their side. Whether. Whether or not that's true, we can talk about, but I think that they are going to be more aggressive than they were the first term. I mean, you remember, feels so long ago, but, like, there was a backlash against the Republican trans bathroom ban in North Carolina.

Sam Sanders (18:38)

Yep.

Tim Miller (18:39)

Like, they had to back off of it. Right.

Sam Sanders (18:41)

Like, because major sporting events said, we won't go. Sports teams are like, you can't do this. And business stopped that.

Tim Miller (18:47)

Yeah.

Zach Stafford (18:48)

Like PayPal.

Tim Miller (18:48)

Yeah. So they had a big. So they backed off of it. So, you know, I think that this time they feel like they have a lot more running room to. To do this. I think that in a lot of ways, the scariest stuff that's happening is probably going to be at the state level and local level because there won't be federal protections. Right. Like, I don't. Besides the stuff that you mentioned, I don't know that there's a Lot of, like, proactive, like, anti LGBT legislation they're going to be doing. But there's not going to be, you know, look, the Pam Bondi Department of Justice is not going to be, you know, some company or some school district that discriminates, you know, on the basis of sex or gender identity. So, like, there's not going to be a lot of protections for people that are attacked, that are particularly living in. In certain communities, red throughout the country. So, like, I think that stuff is super scary. I do. I do, like, sometimes have to tell, like, my L and G buddies fill out a little bit. Like, I'm. The concern for me is lower on things like them coming for Obergefell. You know, they passed recently the Defense of Marriage act under Biden. That was one of Biden's accomplishments. I don't. I'm not saying it's a 0% chance they try to overturn Obergefell. Like, we've seen a lot of very unexpected things happening. But I think that is far lower on their priority list, in part because they are trying to appeal to the, quote, unquote, normal gays and, like, wedge the trans community against them. So that's kind of my, like, assessment of the state of.

Sam Sanders (20:22)

I find it really interesting that you bring up the fact that there's, like, this divide and conquer amongst the Alphabet people. There is a 2017 Family Research Council panel that had someone named Mel Kilgannon say back then. And this is in Vox, quoted recently, she told this group of people gathered who were planning all of this stuff, she said, quote, if you separate the T from the Alphabet soup will have more success. They were saying that back in 2017. And I keep thinking about what is different between targeting trans people now and targeting gay marriage during the era of George W. Bush. Something happened really quickly. When we saw the drastic astronomical shift on public opinion around queer people in those years, everyone kind of realized that they knew someone gay, knew someone lesbian, and it was much harder to be mean to this group when you saw them in your neighborhoods, in your schools, et cetera. I think what the GOP knows this time is that trans people are 1% or less of the population and that most people who are the loudest about trans people actually don't have experience with them. And that makes it easier for those messages to stick. And that worries me, and it makes me worry more this time than when I saw the attacks on queer marriage before. But I also wonder if any of this is actually working. You know, there was a lot of coverage about that Trump campaign ad in which a voice says, kamala is for they. Them. President Trump is for you. The ad itself got a lot of play, but folks who studied the efficacy of the ad said it really didn't change people's minds about Harris. It distracted from other issues. But they did find that it increased viewers negativity about trans people. And so I have this big question for Zach, for Tim, for all y'all. It's like, do they wanna do this to actually demonize trans people? Do they wanna do this to give the base what they want? Or are they doing this just to distract you from talking about the X?

Tim Miller (22:38)

I don't think this is a distraction. Go ahead, Zach.

Sam Sanders (22:40)

Okay.

Zach Stafford (22:41)

No, you go first. I want to hear you first because.

Tim Miller (22:43)

Yeah, I don't think this is a distraction.

Sam Sanders (22:45)

Okay, say more.

Tim Miller (22:47)

I. Look, there's a lot of movement conservatives that are passionate about this issue, that have been talking about it for a long time. There are people, their parents, and I'm not. I'm not saying fair, unfair, right, but their parents, I hear it just, you know, when I talked about getting out of Orleans Parish, going up to Baton Rouge, I talked to some of my Baton Rouge parents, friends, you know, they're. They have concerns that I think are crazy, but, like, about, oh, you know, in the schools, there's, you know, my kids want, you know, are changing their pronouns and kids are going by different names and kids are identifying as cats. That one's not really true, you know, but there is, you know, that there's these things happening in schools that I don't like that makes me scared that I'm worried about. So I think that there's a real voter base who have concerns about gender identity stuff in schools. So. No, man, I think that. I don't think that this one is abstraction. I think that they are coming for the trans, they're coming on gender issues and they're coming for kids. You know, I worry about, like, you know, look, I'm sure we'll talk about the normal gays that are for Trump, but most of these people aren't like a. Most people don't have kids. And if they do, they are wealthy and they live in blue cities where their kids are not really going to be targeted, right? Kids. And if you are a gay, gay couple and you live in Shreveport, right? School starts making rules for, like, the teachers, you know, you can't talk, you know, the kid can't talk about their parents, the teacher can't talk. You know, they can't do family trees, who Knows like all the don't say gay stuff, which is still, and I know people stop talking about that, but those happening still in place in a lot of red states, they want, like, they want to be able to do that. They want to erase LGBT people from school, from the schools. They want to turn back the clock to a time where they felt more comfortable about the types of topics and materials that kids were talking about in schools. They want people in the closet, and they want to target trans people because they think it's politically effective and they're worried about what's happening with their kids. So I, I, I think it's a, I think that they are really serious.

Sam Sanders (24:53)

Okay, yeah, follow up. Oh, go ahead. Do follow up on that. My immediate ask. Then it's like, have you heard any Democrat anywhere in the country speak to this issue in a way that is helpful and possibly changes some of those minds?

Tim Miller (25:18)

Silence. Look, I think that folks are trying, I'd have to, like, really, like, review everybody's, everybody's statements.

Sam Sanders (25:26)

And I asked this because it's like, I will go home to Texas and I'll be around the same kind of parents briefly. Then I leave, and I'm just like, what Democrat would they listen to on trans issues that might move them further away from the, from being so negative about it? I don't know.

Tim Miller (25:42)

I don't know who either. I, I was talking to Colin Allred, who ran against Ted Cruz, and I just, it ended up being a kind of bad year for him. If you're going to win as a Democrat in Texas, you need to be a better year for Democrats. But I thought he was pretty compelling and talking about this, he talked about how that ad you referenced, he would hear from, from people, you know, in, in his district that he represented, he kind of represents this interesting district in suburban Dallas that, like, does have a big black population, but, like, also includes, like, George W. Bush lives there, like some, which rich white neighborhoods too, because the way that they've gerrymandered the districts. And he said he talked to working class people that were worried that he was like, you know, for using their money to do reassignment surgeries, for murdering illegal immigrants or whatever. And, and, you know, I think he had a pretty compelling way of just sort of talking about it. Like a dad who was a football player who cares about his kids, who, you know, wants people to have basic rights and protections is not for, you know, whatever insane, you know, far right conspiracy is in vogue at the moment. But, like, you have to speak to it. I Do think that the Democrats thought the right strategy during the campaign was just kind of ignore it and hope it goes. And to me, I just. Look, I think that the military one. If a Democrat called me and asked me for advice on how to talk about this, I would say, don't throw, you know, youth issues under the bus. Don't worth. Like, don't, you know, I'm not telling you to throw certain trans people under the bus. What I'm telling you focus on the military, though. I think you can make a compelling message. It's like, this is bullshit. Like, these are patriots that are serving their country, that are putting their life on the line in a fucking draft. Dodging queen and orange makeup is banning them, is kicking them out of the military. That. Fuck him.

Zach Stafford (27:29)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (27:29)

You know, and I would say is to do that.

Zach Stafford (27:31)

I agree with that so much. When I was the editor in chief of the Advocate, you know, we do a lot of digital reporting. We did a lot. I feel like a lot more reporting back then just because of resources. And it was during Trump's last term, and I remember when we put out an article that listed the exact number of trans people that will be laid off from the military. When Trump's ban came into effect, and it was technically the largest layoff of any trans person in the history of the world, in one of the largest layoffs ever in American history, we saw such huge traffic there where people are like, oh, this is a labor issue. This is disrespecting patriots. This is, you know, just hurting humans that are there to protect us. And I do think that is a better avenue to take, because the kids stuff, like, I even heard people in my own family being like, kids in sports. Wait, are they playing against girls? It becomes really complicated. And people have a lot of feelings, nostalgic feelings about kids in sports. But the military in protecting freedom should be pretty cut and dry in how we feel and protect those people. And plus, you know, the messaging for the Republicans are off. Our trans people. Amazing at sports, but bad at the military. Like, where do they dominate? Exactly. Because this is not making sense.

Sam Sanders (28:33)

Yeah, well, and it's. It's. I'm so happy that you bring up the military angle, because before the first trans ban under Trump, the US Military was the largest employer of trans people in the country.

Zach Stafford (28:46)

Yeah.

Sam Sanders (28:47)

And they had integrated trans people into their workforce seamlessly. And so what Democrats could also say is we already have a test case of what happens when you treat trans people fairly. This military, you claim to love it, it worked. And it's been working quietly.

Zach Stafford (29:05)

Yeah.

Sam Sanders (29:06)

You know, and they don't do that. They don't do that.

Zach Stafford (29:09)

They don't. And something, you know, we have to go to break soon, but something I want to ask you, Tim, specifically is this question around, like the normal gays. So GQ released an article yesterday that profiled a bunch of the Republicans that voted for Trump, the so called normal gays, to quote JD Vance's interview with Joe Rogan. And they're feeling great. They're feeling wonderful. They're feeling great. Even though Trump is taking steps back on certain rights that do impact them. You know, with usaid, HIV research is impacted directly, which directly connects to gay men, pride flags, et cetera. But they're pretty like concrete in their stance around he loves us, he's the most gay president yet. However, to your similar point, Sam, we have a lot of decades of history that show Republicans don't like gay people. And these gays that voted for Trump have forgotten that even like 15 years ago, they were on a very different side of this. So why do you think they take such refuge in Trump? What is it about him specifically? Even though he is making attacks, they say, this is our guy, he's protecting us.

Tim Miller (30:02)

Just worth saying, number one, while basically every demographic voted for Trump more this time than last time, the gays and black women were. Did not. So, you know, hey, the gay, his message wasn't really resonating that well with gays. You know, based on the data that said gays did vote for him. To me, I think two things are happening. One is they really don't think that Trump is coming for them. They do think we're kind of at the end of history on gay marriage and gay rights. And I go every year to this Turning Point USA event to try to stay in touch with, with what MAGA World is.

Sam Sanders (30:36)

Thanks and prayers. Thank you for your service.

Tim Miller (30:38)

Happy to do it, man. And there's a group called Gays Against Groomers that was there a couple years. I went and talked to those guys and I was just like, you know, they're younger.

Sam Sanders (30:46)

Everyone there thinks they're the groomers.

Tim Miller (30:48)

Yeah, exactly.

Sam Sanders (30:49)

Like, come on.

Tim Miller (30:51)

Yeah, they were younger. Their whole, the whole group is ridiculous. And they're being used. And that was what I tried to tell them. I was like, you're being used. And you know, I was trying to be like the older gay, you know, the elder gay. It's like, I don't think you're thinking about this. Like, I have a kid. Like, like, do you not think that the don't say gay stuff would come for your kids. Like, would, would it not bother you that a teacher would get in trouble or, you know, if they talked about your family as it, as it exists in a classroom with your kid. And like, they would think about it for a second, but, you know, can then kind of revert to their partisan, you know, lane. So I think part of this is just that they don't think that, that, you know, that there's going to be enough backsliding that they end up being targeted. And I think that's a mistaken deal. But the other thing is, I do think that the, the wedging is working with the trans community and there's a group of gays. The most generous way you could say it is that they're like, man, wait a minute, I like to wear my mom's heels when I was a kid and bigots used to tell me I was a girl. And now there are all these whatever woke lefties that are telling a six year old that wants to wear their mom's heels that he's a girl. And that's wrong. And like the generous way to interpret that, that I think is like, okay, like that's, that's maybe a legitimate conversation that we could all have. But they get radicalized and they go start so far that like, makes them hate trans people and hate trans activists and they see Trump is on their side in a battle with the other members of the community. So that'd be like, we could do a whole hour on that, but that would be the simplest way to discuss it.

Zach Stafford (32:18)

I agree. And you know, we have to go to break, but before we go there, I want to give us a quote in my most liberal fashion, and which I'll do this, but in 1984, James Baldwin told Richard Goldstein in the Village Voice during an interview, he said, quote, I think white gay people feel cheated because they were born in principle in a society in which they were supposed to be safe. And I feel like that quote always comes to mind when you say things like that, Tim, where it's like, you know, gay white men are like, I look at work like my fellow Republicans, I act, my life looks similar to theirs. But there's just one difference. Why should I be penalized for this one thing?

Sam Sanders (32:52)

And I'm glad you said it, because as soon as you said some gays, it's like white gays. This is mostly white gays who are doing this.

Tim Miller (33:00)

Okay, don't sell out, Ross.

Zach Stafford (33:03)

Listen, controversial opinion. Rob Smith may be black but you know, it's.

Sam Sanders (33:11)

I'm saying, though, like this article you share, Zach, it's not all gays. It's mostly upper class, white, urban gays. And I think a lot about, you know, there's a choice we all make once we choose to be Alphabet people. Will we understand that our uniqueness is a gift and that we only are free if we stake out our freedom and difference? Or do we think if we're nice enough to the folks who oppressed us that they'll stop? They'll never be. And the same people who are now coming for trans rights, they were writing the laws against gay marriage 20 years ago. It's the same motherfuckers.

Zach Stafford (33:46)

Yeah, same thing.

Sam Sanders (33:46)

This is what the people at these parties don't get.

Zach Stafford (33:49)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (33:49)

They're not changing the don't say gay bill.

Zach Stafford (33:53)

Literally. Yeah. Well, we have to go to break. But to save myself from my Rob Smith comment, I will just give another quote. Skin folk aren't kin folk. You know, not all black people are down for black people. That's all I'm gonna say about that. You know, Google Rob Smith if you don't know who that is. With that, we're gonna take a quick break, but stay tuned. Tim Miller said nothing. I said all of it. And we'll be right back with more vibe check.

Tim Miller (34:16)

You don't know that. You don't know that cat Sam Sanders.

Sam Sanders (34:19)

I don't want to.

Zach Stafford (34:20)

Oh, you.

Sam Sanders (34:21)

What's his name again?

Zach Stafford (34:23)

Rob Smith.

Sam Sanders (34:24)

Rob Smith. How do I. Gay black Republican. What does this do?

Tim Miller (34:27)

Yeah, and he was like at. It literally was at a Turning Point USA event. They were calling him the N word and. And the F slur. And he still is for Trump.

Sam Sanders (34:36)

Oh, keep it in Chantel.

Tim Miller (34:37)

Yeah.

Sam Sanders (34:39)

I will never trust a self hating anything to lead. To lead a movement.

Zach Stafford (34:43)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sam Sanders (34:44)

Self hating gays. Self hating blacks, actually. They're like Nazis. You can punch them. I'm sorry.

Zach Stafford (34:50)

We'll leave that in Chantel. There we go.

Sam Sanders (34:55)

Don't you tell Chantel what to do, you interloper. You just got here.

Zach Stafford (35:00)

When you're cutting Tim's like, don't put my face in that. All right.

Tim Miller (35:05)

On the Joy Reed show. And I'm just like, can I not be on screen when you guys talking? I'm like, I'm like, with you. I'm like 75. Not joy.

Sam Sanders (35:15)

Not Joy. Oh, my God.

Tim Miller (35:17)

Sometimes she starts going to a place and I'm on screen. I'm like, am I supposed to do this? Like, yeah. So when it goes Viral people know that. I was so.

Zach Stafford (35:25)

So on that point, you gotta make.

Sam Sanders (35:26)

Like an X with you.

Zach Stafford (35:29)

I was like, damn. No, I, I. Yeah, no, we should create a sign for that where you could be like, not me. Not me. Like a. All right, well, Sam, you got this next one.

Sam Sanders (35:39)

Yeah. So this whole segment, this whole second segment, Tim, is all about just like, what the fuck is up with Democrats? Where are they? Why aren't they allowed? Or how do they resist? And I just want to kind of hear you really strategize about if Democrats were like, to get behind the message that works right now, what would it be and who would it be? That's it.

Tim Miller (35:57)

I got. I have really strong thoughts on this, so. And. And it starts with this.

Sam Sanders (36:01)

Wait, I want to intro it first. We're not in there. I was setting up for you. Sorry. That's on me. Thank you for your patience. Appreciate you.

Tim Miller (36:11)

I'm down to Quinn.

Zach Stafford (36:12)

Love it.

Sam Sanders (36:14)

All right, we are back. And now I wanna talk about a topic that has really been grinding my gears since Trump took office again. And that is whatever the hell Democrats in D.C. are doing to push back against him. And by whatever, I mean to say, it feels like nothing. So I'm really eager to talk about this with you, Tim, because a lot of your career has been thinking about pushback, thinking about strategy, not just for Democrats or resistors, but also for Republicans. You've thought about this a lot. It feels like we're in this moment where Democrats in Congress have a big chance to push back on everything Trump and Elon are doing right now for several reasons. Elon won no election. Donald Trump is still not approved of by a majority of the country, and the things that are on his agenda, most Americans actually say they don't really want that much, and yet Democrats seem to be sitting this whole thing out. So, to start, I just want to ask you both Zach and Tim, is what I'm saying even fair to say about Democrats? Are Democrats actually just sitting on their hands or is that just what I want to see?

Zach Stafford (37:22)

Yes, they're sitting on their hands and then, like, trying to walk into buildings and getting mad when they're not being let into said buildings because I think private security is blocking them. There's just a lot of yelling. But I've heard many people kind of throw up their hands and say, hey, what can we do? We don't have any power. We can't do much. And I'm confused because the Republicans didn't have a lot of power once, but they were able to build what we're currently living as hell. So I just feel like what's secretly happening, and some people have kind of mentioned this, is that they're wanting us to feel the pain of Trump, and the hope is that the pain will bring everyone back to the Democratic side for the next election, or at least the midterms. So I do see them kind of like, watching it all happen, see how this is being deployed in China and kind of strategizing in the background, but I'm not feeling a lot of support publicly, personally. But, Tim, I know you have a lot of big feelings.

Sam Sanders (38:08)

Your face.

Tim Miller (38:09)

Your face has been like, I wish that was happening. That they were. Because that would actually be a strategy.

Zach Stafford (38:14)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (38:16)

Letting Trump ruin things and then fighting back. I'd be. I would be okay with that. I mean, I don't think that the Democrats have the backbone for that, but I think that, you know, because it would take pain. Right. Like, people be heard. And Democrats tend to be earnest people that don't want their constituents to be hurt. So they're like, they will tend to want to stop, try to do what they can to stop the pain. So I don't actually think that's their strategy. Car. I was on a panel with Carville recently, and he's like, you know, they might be doing a rope, a dope. And I'm like, they're not doing a rope. Like Mike Tyson punch out. Like, they're getting punched in the face over again. Here's the thing, man. We don't. We don't know what the midterms will look like. We don't know what the big issue is. If I was on vibe check February of 2021, I wouldn't have been like, we didn't. Roe hadn't even been overturned.

Sam Sanders (39:05)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (39:06)

Like, the whole contour of the midterm changed. Right. Like, same two years before in Covid. And like, you just don't. You don't know what's going to happen. Right. So a lot of times there's this, like, tendency among Democrats to be like, well, we should wait and we should just strategize and pivot.

Sam Sanders (39:23)

But also, even when they wait, sometimes it doesn't work for them. I think they all were like, oh, well, Roe was gonna win this election for us. Roe was gonna win it for us. So then what do Democrats do? You say that we don't know what the issues will be, but stuff's happening right now. What should. Could. Can they do?

Tim Miller (39:41)

Say now, full attack, full, full fight. Everybody, like, down talks, resistance 1.0. And I don't understand why. Because it worked.

Sam Sanders (39:51)

I still think about them pussy hats. It latched to the brain. It was powerful.

Tim Miller (39:56)

They didn't kill Obamacare. They lost the midterms. It lost to Biden. Like, it worked. I mean, obviously didn't work in the long term. It didn't, you know, resign Trump to the dustbin of history, like we hope, but in the narrow political fights, like, the resistance actually worked. And here's the thing, man. People don't know, like, what is going to work. I guess that is my point. People don't know what the midterms thing is going to be. They should let a thousand flowers bloom. Like, if I had a. If a Democrat called me and they said, what should I attack on? I would say, what are you passionate about? Yeah, what do people in your district and state care about? What can you go on social media and just rant about and break through to people? You know that where people can see your authenticity, they can see your real anger. And. And you do that. Another Democrat can talk about something else. Another Democrat can talk about something else. Like, I fight, like, get off the mat and start. Start punching this guy. Like, the idea that Trump or the Republicans are some strategic attack dogs. They attack everything. They're like, Joe Biden is sleepy. Hunter Biden.

Sam Sanders (40:59)

But here's my question for you, though. As soon as I hear you say this, and this is for both of you, Zach, and you're talking about, like a divide and conquer strategy. Whatever you think will work, just try it. Strategy. I think the gop, especially the Internet, portions of the alt right that were ascendant in the blogosphere, Reddit sphere, podcast sphere, this last cycle, they were cool with that. Everyone just go your own way, Fight towards the goal, towards the mission. But now I'll hear Democrats say in the aftermath of the election, well, who's gonna be our Joe Rogan? How do we get media back? That approach shows me how you're going to fail. Wait, because this idea that the change will come top down, it's not a reality. Tim is.

Zach Stafford (41:43)

Can I just. Can I just. Also, Sam's having a big moment. I want him to have that big moment, but I just want it for context, for people listening. The three of us, plus Ezra Klein plus Favreau, I think Favreau, Tommy Vitor, et cetera, were in the article in the Wall Street Journal about who's going to be the next Joe Rogan. So the irony of you bringing this up. Yeah, I think it's maybe Tim Miller? I don't know.

Sam Sanders (42:01)

I have this big question about whether Democrats or whether the left understands the importance and power of just being legion. I constantly think about a sacred text for me, Sarah Schulman's book, Let the Record show, all about AIDS activism in the Act up movement in the 80s. And their whole thing was, we will never tell you what to do. If you're on our side and have a good idea, you go do that over there. You wanna sit in, you do a sit in. You wanna write letters, you write letters. But as long as you're doing something, do it. And I think there's this Democratic opposition to that idea right now because they're waiting for someone to be in charge. You might not get someone in charge between now and midterms, but, like, do something. Can they do that?

Tim Miller (42:49)

Yeah. I mean, they don't do it, though. But like you say, that's not that hard. So here's the thing that bugs me about all this, right? Is it's like you also have to go out there, like, when you talk about trying new things and doing new things. Like, not within the rubric of typical Democratic shit. Like, this is my problem with that Joe Rogan article you mentioned. It's like, oh, it's Zach and it's Sponsored America and it's Tim and it's.

Sam Sanders (43:12)

I'm in a bubble. I'm a liberal media elite.

Tim Miller (43:15)

Yeah, we have great listeners. I love and appreciate our listeners and viewers. The people that listen to me pay attention to the news at a very deep level. Like, they know who the players are. They know the rules. Like they care. The Democrats aren't struggling with those people. I mentioned earlier that the groups, the Democrats did well with gays and black women. Here's another group, people that pay attention to the news and read newspapers. They did great with those people. They did terrible with people that don't pay attention to the news that much. Right. And so to go out and get your own Joe Rogan, it's like I was at some stupid Democratic conference where you'd heard a lot of people that were like, we need to create our own person. Like you're saying, like, top down or bottom, like, we need to create somebody. And it's like, no, man, you got to go into those spaces and, like, communicate with people like Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn and these guys. Like, they're not Republican activists that talk about Jews all the time. Like the Ovan, like, mostly, like, talk makes dick jokes and like, talk about fucking mma. And like, sometimes they'll Talk about politics. Right? You got to get back into the culture and, like, engage with people outside of our little bubbles. And so I. This is maybe my one disagreement with you, Sam, on the eggs thing. Yeah. Dems should go on the floor and talk about eggs. Totally. Yes. Pivot the message to eggs. Dem congressmen, when they're in their district, should point to the grocery aisle and do a little thing with the newspaper, but they also got to go engage on the cultural stuff. It drives me insane when I hear people, like, say, oh, that's bait. You can't talk about the Trump. You know, if Trump wants to talk about Greenland or Gulf of America or Gaza or whatever, that's bait. You got to ignore that. You got to go back to eggs.

Sam Sanders (44:55)

No, Gaza's not bait. Gaza's real.

Tim Miller (44:59)

Like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry. What do you think the people that watch the Ovans podcast have heard about so far in this administration? It's not the fucking inspectors general. It's not the tariffs. Like, they've heard about Gaza and Gulf of America and the crazy shit that he does. So you got to go engage on that turf. So, man, that's like my thing. That's what I'm begging Democrats to do, is, like, do that, but also do other shit.

Sam Sanders (45:24)

Yeah.

Zach Stafford (45:24)

I mean, I think, you know, personally pretty so much with Tim saying what you're saying, Sam, I think they got to find the thing that activates communities. You know, we talk a lot on our show, and I talk about a lot signals versus noises with Trump. Like, he makes a lot of noise, but what in all that noise is a signal of something that he could actually maybe make come to life. And how do you, as someone in this country, latch onto a signal that makes you wake up? Because I think right now, people are feeling flooded as Steve Bannon keeps pushing us all to believe he is flooding the zone with all this information. And I think people still know what they care about. You know, eggs, to your point, Sam, that makes some people light up. So if eggs is your thing, then figure out a way to actually rally around that and get people activated around that. But I do think Democrats should be. They're feeling really terror terrified of, I think, the 2020 election cycle, which, like, we were all a part of in our own way, you know, And I was one of the journalists on stage with the Democrats running for president, asking them very specific questions about queer rights around trans people in prisons, et cetera, that now have kind of had a big, long tail on them. And now it's kind of become this very nuclear issue. Yeah. It's not my fault. Some of it. I was asking the questions that matter. We had a lot of people on stage. I had like 20 people. We had to find something to talk about.

Tim Miller (46:31)

And it didn't tell me it's my fault because I was a Republican 100 years ago. So I'm just trying to share the blame.

Zach Stafford (46:37)

O, please.

Tim Miller (46:38)

I take the blame. I'm just trying to chunk it out a little bit.

Zach Stafford (46:41)

Chunk it out. I get the. That's why I don't look at Twitter, because people bring back old tweets of mine where I, like, publish an op ed from Nancy Pelosi about something and they're like, this was your fault. And I'm like, maybe potentially, I don't know. We've learned. But I do think we need to return to, like, testing the field, testing messages, figuring out something that really makes people come alive. Because right now, everyone I'm speaking to is feeling so numb and turned off by it all. Like, the most elite thinkers are like, what can I do besides think of moving to Canada or Amsterdam? So they just need something to excite them again. And the Democrats are not doing that at all.

Tim Miller (47:12)

I also think that, can we just do noise too? Like, can we signal and noise? Like, because I think the Democrats are pretty good at being like, we should find the signal. We should find the thing. We should focus on issue. But the Republicans are doing mostly noise.

Zach Stafford (47:26)

They do a lot of the perfect.

Sam Sanders (47:28)

Noise moment in the campaign. As soon as Donald Trump went to McDonald's, my first thought was like, kamala, go to. Go to McDonald's.

Zach Stafford (47:36)

I think that too. Give some more noise. Mother Harris, go back to your job. Go do those fries like you better fry.

Sam Sanders (47:43)

How can they do the noise? And also when I think about how to talk about these things, whether you're talking about trans rights or eggs, everything you're saying, Democrats, whether it's signal, where Signal or noise, Say it with your full fucking chest.

Zach Stafford (47:56)

Yeah.

Sam Sanders (47:57)

Can I tell you a thing that I notice with Democrats right now? And it was happening a lot, even with folks like Allred before the election, they'd want to say when the GOP was being anti queer, anti trans. Well, we're pro queer people. Pro trans people. But they were timid about it. Be there for them or don't. In the same way that, like, Democrats, a lot of moderate Democrats were, like, waffling on abortion rights. Well, you know, I'm religious and I think this. And no, just say, you're for it. Say you're for it. I think that there is, like, an inability of Democrats to actually forcefully say to the gop, no. And I think every time that they engage with conservatives, especially over trans issues, and don't just say unequivocally, this is what we believe, they cede ground to the left on the right on trans issues. If you keep letting the right suck you into a debate over trans rights, they get more ground. You gotta just, like, be clear with your whole chest. And they're not doing that.

Zach Stafford (49:01)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (49:02)

Work assignment. Can I give you guys a homework assignment?

Zach Stafford (49:04)

Oh, yeah.

Tim Miller (49:05)

Can we deprogram them? And this is, like, the thing that's my issue, man. Like, I say anything. With your whole chest. Yeah, talk to me. Like, just talk to me. You know, like, obviously, like, AOC is not exactly my kind of Democrat, but, like, at least my kind.

Sam Sanders (49:19)

I watch her Instagram Lives. I love her. I watch her do the makeup, all of it.

Tim Miller (49:23)

Sometimes she does stuff that makes me roll my eyes and whatever, but, like, okay, that's fine. Like, at least she's just being her. So many of these people are not, like, have been trained for, like, decades that to, like, rise through the ranks in Democratic politics, you have to be the person that is good on message and that gets A's on your report card and it does your homework. And I'm like, they need a few more people that, like, can just vibe out with you guys and, like, yeah. Know how to deprogram.

Sam Sanders (49:50)

It's things. It's. Oh, go ahead, Zach.

Zach Stafford (49:52)

No, I agree so much. I wish they would vibe out with us more. And we've been asking, you know, I won't say names, but we've been trying to hook people on this, trying to get people to come on, but they don't want to vibe out. But one day, some of them will. But for me, you know, Trump, what is really incredible about him as a politician is he's willing to dream aloud without a filter. Like, he says, why shouldn't it be the Gulf of America? Why not? He's just willing to imagine these futures, which I find terrifying. But he does it, and it helps him figure out what sticks to the wall. And then policy follows that the Democrats do zero dreaming. I've heard nothing big come out of them in a long time. And that's why I always come back to this. I know people have a lot of feelings about defund the police and how it was message, market, et cetera. I loved it so much because it made us all think about what do police do? How is money spent? What could it. What would the world look like without police? Oh, God. Is that scary? Is that terrifying? Or is that exciting?

Sam Sanders (50:38)

And I think the Overton window. Yeah.

Zach Stafford (50:40)

I think we need bigger dreams to see what reality falls from those dreams. That's my thing. And the Democrats are not dreaming. They're just like, not even.

Tim Miller (50:46)

Now, you have me a little nervous a little bit, though, that the Democrats are going to take my advice and they're going to start dreaming publicly and start being real, and they're gonna say shit that, like, I find really dumb. Then I'm gonna listen.

Zach Stafford (50:57)

There's a good and bad to everything, Tim.

Tim Miller (51:00)

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. When I told you to dream big, I didn't mean that dream.

Zach Stafford (51:03)

You're like, it's too big. Wrong dream, different dream. We'll figure out the right dream, Tim. We'll figure out the right dream.

Tim Miller (51:08)

At least talk to me like a regular person.

Sam Sanders (51:10)

Well, and speaking of, like, talk to folks like a regular person, there's also this other thing I see happening amongst the left and people I know. Tell me about this phenomenon with pride. Well, you know, there was that member of my family who's, like, way too conservative, so I just cut them off and I don't talk to them anymore. And I'm like, all right, you can. But it's not like they're gonna listen to vibe check instead. It's not like they're going to, like, come find the left because the person in their family who could talk to them stopped.

Zach Stafford (51:40)

No, Tim, What? I mean, sorry, Sam. You know what they're gonna do? They're gonna go listen to Tim at the Bulwark, and then they're gonna hear your voice, and that's how they're gonna come back.

Sam Sanders (51:46)

I hope so.

Zach Stafford (51:46)

That's what happens.

Sam Sanders (51:47)

But I also think that, like, what has to happen is that, like, there has to be a willingness for the left and for Democrats to engage with and take seriously people they may be kind of hate. Yeah, People they maybe kind of hate. And as soon as they say it, people get mad about that. But that's how I feel. Go ahead, Jim. Your arms.

Tim Miller (52:08)

I mean, I would almost say, can we do a step before that? Which is, like, be people that you think like, might be a little bit bad because. I guess.

Sam Sanders (52:17)

Or. Or, like, dumber than you.

Tim Miller (52:19)

Yeah, we're all.

Sam Sanders (52:20)

Maybe they're dumber than you, but they're still a vote.

Tim Miller (52:23)

Yeah, dumber. You would be a great first start, but then you move there to Dumber than you, but kind of bad because, like, we're all kind of bad. I just, like, this is the part I hate the most about the left. Like, we all up, like, we all have this, this idea that, you know, that you used to be a Republican. I used to be a Republican, man. Some people didn't listen, some people didn't download this. Because of that, you have like eight listeners who are like, I'm not gonna download that. I don't know, like Theo, you know, like, Theo Vaughn is my Louisiana boy. So I like to bring him up as an example, man. This guy, like, he probably makes a couple off color jokes that you might not like. He has a couple of views about immigration you probably don't like. But like, he's just a guy and he's, he isn't that smart. He's funny, like, he's savvy. And he like, doesn't have season. Is not like a religious conservative. He doesn't hate gay people. He doesn't hate black people. Like, he doesn't, like, he's just a dude. He's just a dude that has a mix of views, that doesn't pay that close of attention to the news. And if like a cool Democrat went and sat down with him and like, and found a few issues of commonality, well, the OV for that guy, it's not even Matt Walsh, you know, start with that.

Sam Sanders (53:37)

It's not even just Theo Vaughn. Like, I am literally, I'm a liberal media elite who lives in Los Angeles who is black and also gay. And I will have some conversations with folks who are progressive and I feel like they want to kick me out of the room. And I'm like, what?

Zach Stafford (53:56)

They probably do.

Sam Sanders (53:57)

I'm trying here. There is this, I hate to say purity test, cuz it's been a word that's been used a lot. But like, the purity test of it all is just killing me. Zach, what are your final thoughts on this?

Zach Stafford (54:08)

I mean, being yelled at, tempted rap right now. So I, I agree. I think we should have more hard conversations and I think people should say what they actually want. I'm tired of like this kind of like winking, not doing anything mentality the Democrats have. I'm just like, do something. Offend me, but do something. I don't care anymore. Like, things are a bit too dire.

Sam Sanders (54:24)

Yeah. And when in doubt, talk about the eggs. I'm telling you, I'm talking about.

Zach Stafford (54:28)

I go, I will say my, my only thing about.

Tim Miller (54:31)

That's what I'm saying. You're you found your passion.

Sam Sanders (54:34)

I'm eggs, baby.

Tim Miller (54:36)

You're a Democratic congressperson. Find your passion.

Sam Sanders (54:38)

Maybe it'll be drag name is Frittata.

Tim Miller (54:41)

Maybe you and Sam can do a Frittata Instagram live together. If your passion is something else, then talk about that.

Zach Stafford (54:47)

Oh, God. My drag name is Frittata. We have to. We have to stop there.

Sam Sanders (54:52)

All right, Speaking of, I asked you at the beginning, Tim, to think of a drag name for Donald Trump. We're at the end of the show, just about. Come on.

Tim Miller (54:59)

I feel like on John, you know, like, it has to be something about how you know his middle name. I don't know. I'm not good at drag names.

Sam Sanders (55:09)

Welcome back to it. Zach's gonna pick the one.

Zach Stafford (55:12)

I'm trying to type some up to see what. I don't know. There's, like, maga. I mean, I don't know. Can we do this?

Sam Sanders (55:20)

Let's come back at the end. All right, Save it. But we're gonna come back to it. All right? And we'll keep the next segment short. All right, time for a break. When we come back, we're gonna totally cleanse the palette with some recommendations to help keep your vibrate. Stay with us.

Zach Stafford (55:35)

Sounds like typing I thought I had.

Sam Sanders (55:37)

All right. I'm, like, totally derailing y'all with this.

Zach Stafford (55:39)

Oh, you're fine. You're fine. So, Tim, this next part, just five minutes. Do you have a wreck in my. You don't have to tell me yet.

Tim Miller (55:45)

I can prepare.

Zach Stafford (55:46)

Perfect. So we'll start with you. We'll go to Sam, and then I'll go.

Tim Miller (55:49)

Last professional podcaster.

Zach Stafford (55:51)

I love. We love this. We love this. All right. All right, listeners, we're back, and before we end the show, we'd each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. So, Tim Miller, what is your vibe rec for the week?

Tim Miller (56:03)

You're my vibe, right? I'm going to Coachella.

Zach Stafford (56:05)

Oh, you are? Because of Gaga or someone else?

Tim Miller (56:09)

Yeah, I mean, because.

Sam Sanders (56:10)

Are you doing VIP cella or, like, in the. In the. In the streets? In the mud with coachella?

Tim Miller (56:16)

Same. I'm 42. I'm in my 40s. I'm doing VIP cello. I'm not in the.

Sam Sanders (56:24)

Okay.

Tim Miller (56:25)

Yeah, yeah. I didn't see Sweat tour, so I wanted to see Charlie Gaga. But here's the thing. Like, I have been using it as a music discovery tool, right? Like, checking out the other acts, right? And, you know, give myself a little something for my walks that is different than podcasts. About Donald Trump. So checking out, like, Polo and Pan and Artemis, I've been getting back into my girl Amare. She's good.

Zach Stafford (56:50)

Amare is amazing. That's good taste.

Tim Miller (56:53)

So I've been checking out the, you know, kind of bands I don't know in the Coachella list. That's what. That's what's keeping my vibe.

Zach Stafford (56:59)

Sam, are you gonna go to Coachella?

Sam Sanders (57:01)

I have never been, and I don't think I ever will. I just. I've aged out. I'm too old for that. I also.

Tim Miller (57:08)

It's so fun. It's so fun.

Sam Sanders (57:12)

It's fun. If you're on the party drugs, and I cannot do party drugs around strangers. I can't.

Tim Miller (57:18)

I think you could have fun without party drugs at Coachella. I believe it'd be fun.

Sam Sanders (57:21)

Or with.

Zach Stafford (57:22)

I think you should go with Tim. I'll consider. Let us know when you go, and.

Sam Sanders (57:25)

Maybe we'll go to VIP cell. A pass. Can you give me a past?

Tim Miller (57:29)

Yeah. Well, no. I paid for it. Like, I paid for it.

Sam Sanders (57:31)

You didn't get a hookup. You're liberal media elite, my dude.

Tim Miller (57:34)

I don't know. I have no hookup.

Sam Sanders (57:35)

I just have a hookup.

Tim Miller (57:36)

And they're like 18 layers of VIP, so I'm just like, normal, regular guy VIP. You should.

Sam Sanders (57:42)

I guarantee you right now, right now, that Zach knows somebody.

Zach Stafford (57:44)

We can talk about it later. I'm not saying get me up into.

Tim Miller (57:48)

Bb, because getting in VV is real nice.

Zach Stafford (57:53)

Okay, so for those. For those that care about this very liberal LA conversation, the top tier that you want is Artists Pass. Artist Pass, which gets you a golf of card that you get to write, right? Because that's what the artist writes. So that's like the top tier. I have never done it.

Sam Sanders (58:06)

I have never. If. Zach, look me in the face.

Zach Stafford (58:09)

Okay.

Sam Sanders (58:10)

If you know someone who has access to artists past giving away, don't blink.

Zach Stafford (58:20)

Sorry, I don't. No one knows what I did. We're moving on. We're moving on.

Sam Sanders (58:25)

Leave it in, Chantel.

Tim Miller (58:26)

I'll take you offline. I'll see you.

Zach Stafford (58:29)

God, that was terrifying. Sam, what's your vibe rec of the week?

Sam Sanders (58:34)

My vibe rec of the week was that last 30 seconds.

Zach Stafford (58:39)

I'm terrified.

Sam Sanders (58:40)

I love you, Zach. Okay, My recommendation this week, I have been in awards season mode on this show and my other show, and I've been talking about Grammys, Oscars, everything. And that means I've been thinking a lot about what has been the best art of the last year, specifically with film I think I can say definitively with pride now. I've watched all the Oscar contenders. The best movie of that last year is nickel boys, and everyone needs to go watch is visually stunning in a way I didn't think possible. It has moments that truly rip your heart out of your chest. I think Anjanae Ellis Taylor deserves three Oscars by now, and this is just a feat of filmmaking. It's a feat of filmmaking. I think everyone should see it. And I'm mad knowing that it is a contender for best picture, but it probably won't win. If you want more of me being mad after you watch nickel boys, go to my other show, the Sam Sanders show, and I have an episode all about why I think the Oscars shouldn't exist. But before you check that out, please go watch Nickel boys. Zach has a connection. We both do. We have a friend who was part of the team making this movie.

Zach Stafford (59:54)

We do. We know a lot of people over there. And Sam, I saw your hot take on there should be no award shows. And I have a question. Why don't you want a job anymore? Because that's what half of your show consists of is talking about award shows. Why do you want to get a job anymore?

Sam Sanders (60:06)

Because I'm ready to be a kept woman.

Zach Stafford (60:09)

Okay. I see that feature. That's why you go to Coachella with Tim. We find you that man. Oh, that's what's gonna happen.

Tim Miller (60:16)

I read nickel boys, but I haven't watched it yet. It's beautiful.

Sam Sanders (60:21)

It's so beautiful.

Zach Stafford (60:22)

It's beautiful. It's Rommel. Mel Ross directed, who was a documentary filmmaker before. It's incredible. It's a feat. It's a lot, though. It is a lot to watch.

Tim Miller (60:32)

I know. We love Colson.

Zach Stafford (60:33)

Oh, yeah. You know. You know how it goes. Well, my wreck for the week is another movie, but different than Sam's. It's called Companion. It's directed by Drew Hancock. Yes, it's wonderful. It's perfect for our chat because it is a kind of sleeper incel movie. It's about a guy and a girl go away for the weekend and some deaths start happening and people aren't who you think they are. And it really shocked me. So it's best to go in not knowing anything about the film, but it's a film that's very much about, like, a not too distant future where Elon Musk robots are in our lives and what happens next.

Sam Sanders (61:05)

And it has a good nepo baby in there. The Quaid. What's his name?

Zach Stafford (61:08)

It does Jack Quaid. Jack Quaid, Yeah. Who I always think is Tom Hanks son for some reason. I don't know why.

Sam Sanders (61:15)

Yeah, one of the Quaid's kids.

Tim Miller (61:17)

Dennis Quaid or Randy? Dennis.

Zach Stafford (61:19)

Dennis. Let's see. Dennis Quaid's.

Tim Miller (61:21)

Well, you look that up. I've got one more for you guys. I don't know if this quite qualifies as a vibe, but since we're together, I felt like. I don't know about you, but I'm reading, like, for every serious book I read, I'm reading one trashy gay book right now. It's called the Slut Nuts by Dennis Cooper.

Sam Sanders (61:43)

Okay.

Tim Miller (61:45)

Mess like early days, like Craigslist message board drama. Oh, I love raunchy, though. It is like, you gotta really.

Sam Sanders (61:54)

I mean, it is a 2004 epistolary novel. Okay.

Zach Stafford (62:01)

I love this. Wait, Tim, are you the type of gay that loved Eating Out? Those. Those movies? Girl, I thought you were talking.

Tim Miller (62:08)

You said eating out.

Zach Stafford (62:10)

Oh, my God. No, I'm eating the movies.

Tim Miller (62:12)

I did not do the eating out movies.

Zach Stafford (62:14)

You should watch the Eating out movies. They're great. They're kind of a similar trashy series from the late 90s, early 2000s, but you should watch that.

Sam Sanders (62:21)

Who likes Eating Out?

Zach Stafford (62:22)

Eating Out?

Tim Miller (62:25)

Who doesn't?

Zach Stafford (62:26)

Who doesn't? Who doesn't? Well, I'm gonna read that. I love a trashy gay thing. I famously love to rewatch Queerest Folk once a year. As in my trashy gay. Like, problematic. But still, you know, that's my type of problematic.

Tim Miller (62:38)

I mean, you know, there's some borderline choices in the show.

Zach Stafford (62:41)

Oh, yeah. There's also no black people. How, how, how? There's literally no person of color in the whole film, the whole show.

Tim Miller (62:47)

Like, gay. You know, I'm such a privileged, white, normal gay.

Zach Stafford (62:53)

You're just a normal gay. You and J.D. vance hanging out.

Sam Sanders (62:58)

A therapist would say none of us should use the word normal because what even is that?

Tim Miller (63:02)

Well, we were making fun.

Sam Sanders (63:03)

I know, I know, I know. Well, anyway, I'll get the hell out of this studio.

Tim Miller (63:07)

Chantel's like, y'all got 30 more minutes of material.

Sam Sanders (63:10)

Oh, we're aware. All right.

Zach Stafford (63:14)

With that, listeners, what are you feeling or not feeling this week? Are you reading gay slutty books? Like, Tim, are you going to Coachella? Let us know@vibecheckitchitcher.com and with that, that's our show. Thank you, Tim Miller, for being here today. This was so fun.

Sam Sanders (63:26)

Tim, thank you so much for being here. You came in to the Kiki, right on time. You're one of us. As you just seamlessly wormed your way into our hearts.

Zach Stafford (63:36)

A lady, Seriously, a real lady.

Sam Sanders (63:37)

Appreciate you.

Tim Miller (63:38)

Yes, it was a joy. Thank you for having me.

Sam Sanders (63:40)

Yeah. Listeners, thank you for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow this show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend. Said it already, but I'll say it again. Thanks to our very special guest, Tim Miller for joining us today. It's an honor. And I think I want to get some pearls now. Cause they look good on you. I like that. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Huge thanks to our producers, Shantel Holder, our executive producers, Camille Stanley from Sirius XM and Brandon Sharp from Agenda. Thanks to Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, shout out to our intern, Julia Leo, and Aisha Ayoub, who creates our social content.

Zach Stafford (64:19)

And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us@vibecheckistra.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram on our page Iibecheck or pod. And for direct access to our group chat, you can join our patreon for just $5 a month at patreon.com vibecheck also vibecheck. Yeah. See, great deal, $5. You can text Sam Sanders direct. Yeah. Also vibecheck listeners can now get a free three month trial on the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com vibecheck again, that's siriusxm.com Vibecheck stay tuned for another episode next week with Sayu Jones back. Until then, goodbye, ladies.

Sam Sanders (64:55)

I got it to close. Wait, hold on. When we hang out in New Orleans, Tim Miller, we're gonna have a small talk stroll. We're gonna walk around that city with some hurricanes or daiquiris.

Zach Stafford (65:06)

Purple drinks.

Sam Sanders (65:07)

See how we can small talk. Purple drink, not cool.

Zach Stafford (65:10)

Talk to people.

Tim Miller (65:11)

Yeah, that's the drink. That's the frozen drink to do.

Sam Sanders (65:14)

We're gonna be. Yeah, let's see how long we can talk to strangers.

Zach Stafford (65:18)

Oh, God. Go to a gay. Go to a gay bar for this so you can find husbands. Both of you. This is what I suggest.

Sam Sanders (65:24)

We love it.

Zach Stafford (65:26)

All right, thank you so much, y'all. Bye.