Canada PM Carney Visits Trump’s Oval Office of Insanity

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Canada PM Carney Visits Trump’s Oval Office of Insanity
Release Date: May 6, 2025
Host/Authors: Sam Stein and Tim Miller

---

Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Sam Stein and Tim Miller delve into the recent historic meeting between Canada's newly elected Prime Minister, Mark Carney, and former U.S. President Donald Trump at the Oval Office. The discussion explores the implications of this high-profile visit, focusing on evolving trade dynamics, Trump's shifting stance on tariffs, and broader geopolitical strategies.

---

Mark Carney's Inaugural Visit to the Oval Office

Sam Stein opens the conversation by highlighting the significance of Mark Carney's first visit to the Oval Office shortly after his election. He notes the symbolic parallels to Ukrainian President Zelensky's previous meetings, emphasizing the doors and seats of power as central to diplomatic engagements.

Sam Stein [00:00]: “Mark Carney was just elected, what, like a week ago. He gets his first trip, goes to the Oval...”

Tim Miller adds a light-hearted jab at Sam's observations, setting the stage for their nuanced analysis.

---

Trump's Backtracking on Trade Policies

A major focal point of the discussion is Trump's unexpected shift away from aggressive trade deals. Sam recounts Trump's initial support for Carney, suggesting that Trump's acknowledgment of Carney's election played a role in their diplomatic interactions.

Sam Stein [00:45]: “But this was notable not because it was contentious. It was notable because Trump backtracked in a fairly substantial way on the issue of trade.”

Tim Miller criticizes Trump's inconsistent messaging on tariffs, portraying him as obstructive to free-market principles.

Tim Miller [01:05]: “These tariffs are not going anywhere... He is pushing for autarky and he wants to crush the American economy.”

---

The Stance on Tariffs and Trade Deals

The conversation shifts to the specifics of the trade negotiations between the U.S. and Canada. Howard Lutnick interjects with a firm stance against lifting tariffs, reflecting Trump's unwavering position.

Howard Lutnick [02:26]: “We don't have to sign deals. They have to sign deals with us. They want a piece of our market, we don't want a piece of their market.”

Sam and Tim analyze the implications of Trump's refusal to engage in new trade agreements, suggesting that few, if any, concessions will be forthcoming.

Sam Stein [04:33]: “No, just the way it is... But I do say it's kind of interesting to watch that disconnect between the advisors and Trump.”

Tim Miller [02:56]: “He doesn't think he's a department store owner. He's a Maoist. Now he wants central planning of the entire government.”

---

Disconnect Between Trump's Advisors and His Policies

A recurring theme is the apparent disconnect between Trump's advisors and his actual policy decisions. Sam observes that while advisors discuss potential deals, Trump remains uninterested in pursuing them, focusing instead on maintaining tariffs and controlling market prices.

Sam Stein [05:49]: “He just thinks I'm going to set the prices and people can shop at our store regardless. And it's yet another case where all these Trump advisers think they're doing the thing that's going to please Trump and they just look silly and foolish at the end of it.”

Tim highlights the unsustainable nature of Trump's trade strategies, particularly concerning China, suggesting that external economic pressures are a key component of his approach.

Tim Miller [06:43]: “Besson's point now, big point now, is that this is unsustainable for... he says, for their economy, it's unsustainable and anything that's unsustainable will eventually end.”

---

Broader Geopolitical Implications

The discussion briefly touches upon Trump's comments on NATO and international security, acknowledging that while Trump threatened to undermine NATO, it inadvertently led to increased commitment from member countries.

Tim Miller [08:28]: “He has kind of by like threatening to break up NATO, and now all the NATO countries are doing more. So I get that.”

Sam agrees, noting Carney's restrained yet strategic comments on strengthening U.S.-Canada relations within existing frameworks like USMCA.

Sam Stein [08:55]: “He did a few things that I don't really like that I wouldn't want to do... But he does, like, little things like that where these are sort of like Canadian nice compliments, but it's nothing.”

---

Side Discussion: CDC Salmonella Warning

In an unrelated aside, Sam mentions a recent CDC warning about salmonella linked to backyard chickens, tying it to Brooke Rollins' advice on addressing the egg crisis by encouraging people to raise poultry.

Sam Stein [01:41]: “Had nothing to do with Carney. But yesterday this story broke out that the CDC was issuing a salmonella warning because people were touching their chickens that they were putting in their backyard.”

This brief tangent serves to highlight the podcast's commitment to covering a breadth of current issues, even amidst their primary focus on international politics.

---

Trump's Comments on Obama and WOKE Workers

The conversation shifts to Trump's peculiar remarks regarding former President Obama and the construction of his library, where Trump sarcastically criticizes Obama's project management while promoting his preference for "WOKE" workers.

Howard Lutnick [09:36]: “He wants woke people to build it.”

Sam Stein [09:55]: “But yeah, I thought Carney did what you're supposed to do, which is go in there, say your bit, get out.”

This exchange underscores the often chaotic and contradictory nature of Trump's public statements, further complicating diplomatic relations.

---

Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Sam and Tim reflect on the complexities of the U.S.-Canada relationship under Trump's unpredictable leadership. They commend Mark Carney for maintaining a steadfast position amid shifting political tides, emphasizing the challenges ahead in renegotiating trade deals and ensuring bilateral cooperation.

Tim Miller [10:30]: “Foreign world or in Sam? I don't have any other thoughts beyond that.”

Sam Stein [10:35]: “Okay, cool. All right. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate it.”

The hosts sign off with a shared sentiment on the uncertain yet critical path forward for North American trade relations.

---

Notable Quotes

• Sam Stein [00:00]: “Mark Carney was just elected, what, like a week ago. He gets his first trip, goes to the Oval...”
• Tim Miller [01:05]: “These tariffs are not going anywhere... He is pushing for autarky and he wants to crush the American economy.”
• Howard Lutnick [02:26]: “We don't have to sign deals. They have to sign deals with us. They want a piece of our market, we don't want a piece of their market.”
• Sam Stein [04:33]: “No, just the way it is... But I do say it's kind of interesting to watch that disconnect between the advisors and Trump.”
• Tim Miller [06:43]: “Besson's point now, big point now, is that this is unsustainable for... he says, for their economy, it's unsustainable and anything that's unsustainable will eventually end.”
• Sam Stein [08:55]: “He did a few things that I don't really like that I wouldn't want to do... But he does, like, little things like that where these are sort of like Canadian nice compliments, but it's nothing.”
• Howard Lutnick [09:36]: “He wants woke people to build it.”

---

This episode of Bulwark Takes provides an incisive analysis of the evolving U.S.-Canada relations under Trump's administration, highlighting the intricate balance between diplomatic courtesy and rigid economic policies. Through engaging dialogue and critical perspectives, Sam Stein and Tim Miller offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of the current geopolitical landscape.

Transcript

[Sam Stein]

Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I am joined by Tim Miller. We just watched the new Canadian Prime Minister, Mark Carney at the Oval Office with Donald Trump. It was interesting on a variety of different levels. Mark Carney was just elected, what, like a week ago. He gets his first trip, goes to the Oval. I was reminded of the entrance through the same door that Zelensky took, the same seat that Zelensky took in this case. I was thinking Mark Carney legitimately should have think Trump because in this case, Trump gave him his election. And Trump seemed to acknowledge that early on. But this was notable not because it was contentious. It was notable because Trump backtracked in a fairly substantial way on the issue of trade. I don't know if you watched it. I don't know if you have thoughts.

[Tim Miller]

I've seen, I mean, I've seen clips that I'm waiting. You were, you were watching it minute by minute. I haven't seen minute by minute.

[Sam Stein]

I was.

[Tim Miller]

I know, I know that. Good for your spin because Sam Stein is just absolutely losing our gentleman's bet over when Trump is going to fold on winning.

[Sam Stein]

He, he pushed the delay, the 90, 90 day delay.

[Tim Miller]

These tariffs are not going anywhere. I did. I saw one clip from the, from the press conference where he talked about how upset he is at his team for talking about all these deals. He's upset at his team for talking about these deals. He's like, I might do a few deals, but, like, the tariffs are here to stay. He is pushing for autarky and he wants to crush the American economy. He wants people to have less dolls and pencils. And you love that word.

[Sam Stein]

I did that word.

[Tim Miller]

I'm gonna be using it every single day on this YouTube for the foreseeable future until I need to start going into my yard and gardening my own avocados. I don't really get anything from camera.

[Sam Stein]

So this is an aside. Had nothing to do with Carney. But yesterday this story broke out that the CDC was issuing a salmonella warning because people were touching their chickens that they were putting in their backyard. The reason, which came after Brooke Rollins told people to grow backyard chickens to deal with the egg crisis.

[Brooke Rollins]

I think the silver lining in all of this is how do we in our backyards. We've got do in our backyard. How do we solve for something like this? And. And people are sort of looking around thinking, wow, well, maybe I could get a chicken in my backyard. And it's awesome.

[Sam Stein]

Just a little bit of causation. There. All right, back to Carney. Yes. That's how he backtracked. He said, look, we don't need trade deals. All my advisors are talking about deals that are coming in. No, we are not going to do deals. We have a clip of him saying just that play right now.

[Howard Lutnick]

We also have a situation because everyone says, when, when, when are you going to sign deals? We don't have to sign deals. We could sign 25 deals right now, Howard, if we wanted. We don't have to sign deals. They have to sign deals with us. They want a piece of our market, we don't want a piece of their market. We don't care.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so what do you make of it? Like, to me, it's obvious he's, they're not going to do deals. Maybe they'll have one or two, but he wants to just, I guess to your point, maybe you will win this bet. Maybe you will. He doesn't want to do deals. He wants to set prices.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he doesn't. He thinks he's a department store owner. He, he's a Maoist. Now he wants central planning of the entire government. That's just what he wants.

[Sam Stein]

He's been very explicit about it. He's not.

[Tim Miller]

He's been very explicit about what he wants. I know that all the Republican senators who pretend like to be free marketers are like, want to act like this is not what he wants to do and that this is all as part of some grand plan to get to free trade and zero trade on better terms for us. That is not what he wants to do. It's not what he's planning on doing. And, you know, I mean, I think that at some level, the Canada thing, he certainly, besides, like, teasing them, he certainly kind of like backed off of, you know, the more aggressive rhetorical posture he's using during, when Trudeau was there. But though he would not rule out, you know, still trying to acquire Canada.

[Sam Stein]

You have said that Canada should become the 51st state.

[Howard Lutnick]

No, no. Well, I still believe that, but. But, you know, takes two to tango, right?

[Tim Miller]

But now I do, which is still pretty extreme, you know, pretty outside the Overton window from what past presidents have been saying about, about our dearest ally. But, like, you didn't see him. To me, I thought that the other, the other clip that I saw that was most noteworthy was basically when he's like, we don't do that much business with Canada.

[Howard Lutnick]

Well, we don't do much business with Canada from our standpoint. They do a lot of business with us we're at like 4%.

[Tim Miller]

It's only like 4% of the business that we do. It's all the cards. The cards are in my hands. And so I don't, I'm not going to get rid of the tariffs. They asked like what the concessions they would ask for. And he's like, nothing. Basically friendship. I don't have concessions. Like, he wants the tariffs.

[Sam Stein]

This is the exchange. Is there anything Carney can say to you today to change your mind on tariff in Canada? Trump? No question. Why not? Trump? It's the way it is there anything.

[Howard Lutnick]

He could say to you in the.

[Sam Stein]

Course of your meetings with him today.

[Howard Lutnick]

That could get you to lift tariffs on Canada? No. Why not? Just the way it is.

[Sam Stein]

Not much wiggle room there. Gonna do tariffs. But I will say it's kind of interesting to watch that disconnect between the advisors and Trump. The advisors were sitting there on the couches in the Oval. Like Howard Lutnick is there and he's just looking at them basically being like, you guys keep talking about these deals and how close we are to doing these deals, sub deals, we got deals, we're going to deals on deals. That said, Trump did say that he has 200 deals ready to go. So like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. But anyways, he's out there. He's like, I think my people are doing a bad job basically. And they keep saying we have these deals ready and I don't really care. I just think I'm going to set the prices and people can shop at our store regardless. And it's yet another case where all these Trump advisers think they're doing the thing that's going to please Trump and they just look silly and foolish at the end of it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And you know, I mean, in some cases you can already see it. Like I was in the pod today with jvl. Like we played the clip from Bessant on CNBC yesterday, which, where he's talking, he's getting asked like, what's the status of the China negotiations, basically? And he's like, there is no status, so they need, they need to make more gestures. What is it that you're looking for and is that happening? Is there negotiations about the negotiation? Yeah, we'll see over, over the coming weeks and we'll see what President Trump wants to accept. Right. And that's like the place that they are have to go now, which is like, like Besson's point now, big point now, is that like the, this is Unsustainable for. He won't say our economy, but it's in the subtext. He says, for their economy, it's unsustainable and anything that's unsustainable will eventually end. And it's like, that's the plan. Like, you're just, you're hoping that the Chinese are going to. Are going to crack.

[Sam Stein]

That was what, that's what Trump was saying today, too. He's like, look, they are really suffering. They are really suffering over there and they're going to bend eventually.

[Howard Lutnick]

Look, they're suffering greatly. Their, their economy is suffering greatly because they're not doing trade with the US and they made most of their money off the US don't, don't kid yourself.

[Sam Stein]

It's like, I don't know, man. I don't know. Like, I'm pretty immune to political pressure.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Were you awake during COVID I know he was president during COVID Do you remember what the Chinese did? I mean, like, you think. Yeah, you thought. And I thought, you know, closing down the parks in Berkeley. We had some. We had some lefty status that went a little far for me. It was nothing compared to what was happening in China. Like, people couldn't leave their fucking house. Like, it was horrible. It was a literal dystopia in China. And that didn't. There wasn't a revolution. She recovered now, got gained more power. So anyway, the whole, the whole prospect is Rick. So I don't know, I thought that Carney put my sound Canada, you know, again, I just. Off the pods. I don't watch the whole thing for what I've seen. He did what you're supposed to do in these situations. Right. Which is. Which is like you hold the line on your position. Like, this is no, like, oh, I'm trying to accommodate. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, you know. And obviously he's not going to try to negotiate on whether Canada's for sale. But, you know, he's like, canada's never for sale. It's like the White House. It's not like he did not budge. There's not like, oh, I'm going to listen. Like, when Trump said the only do 4% of business, he kind of was like, no, actually we have a lot of business together. It's important that we do business together. He did a few things that I don't really like that I wouldn't want to do, which is, you know, like, he does kind of this backhanded compliment of Trump where he's like, you Know, Trump has really reinvigorated NATO. The president has revitalized international security, revitalized NATO and us playing our full weight in NATO.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, he has kind of by like threatening to break up NATO, and now all the NATO countries are doing more. So I get that.

[Sam Stein]

You know, I guess that counts.

[Tim Miller]

I guess that counts. So he does, like, little things like that where these, like, they're these sort of like, you know, Canadian, nice compliments, but it's nothing. It wasn't, you know, he, he was not doing like, the, what Trump, you know, the kiss, the ring, the. Oh, now we're gonna, oh, let's all, you know, be like that. That thing isn't really happening. There's no.

[Sam Stein]

And I, I, I did notice that. And the other thing that I noticed was how succinct his comments were whenever he stern. I mean, he basically sat there for a lot of it and then he chose his spots and he said, no, we're not going to be for sale. That will never change. Never going to be the fifth for say. But you know what? We can build on our USMCA talks, and that's why we're here.

[Tim Miller]

And part of the way you've conducted these tariffs has taken advantage of existing aspects of usmca, so it's going to have to change. There's other elements that have come and that's part of what we're going to discuss.

[Sam Stein]

And then that was it. He, like, literally stopped and then suddenly it's like, oh, well, Trump's going to talk again. Then Trump would like, divert into, you know, he had this weird aside about how Obama needed to build his library with WOKE workers or. It was very weird.

[Howard Lutnick]

President ob. And if I, if he wanted help, I'd give him help because I'm a really good builder and I build on time, on budget. He's building his library in Chicago. It's a disaster. And he said something to the effect, I only want dei, I only want woke. He wants woke people to build it.

[Sam Stein]

But yeah, I thought Carney did what you're supposed to do, which is go in there, say your bit, get out.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we can work together on security stuff, national security. I mean, like, that was like, basically.

[Sam Stein]

There was, there was one moment where Trump kind of admitted that, you know, he it all up for the conservatives in Canada where he was like, you know, you probably owe me one, sir. And I was like, yeah, he probably does all you want.

[Howard Lutnick]

He won a very big election in Canada. And I think I was probably the greatest thing that happened to him, but I can't take full credit.

[Sam Stein]

Any other final thoughts before we close this one out?

[Tim Miller]

Foreign world or in Sam? I don't have any other thoughts beyond that.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, cool. All right. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate it. Thank you, guys for watching. We'll catch you later.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, Canada.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, Canada.