Canada to the U.S.: F-ing Bring It

Summary

Bulwark Takes: "Canada to the U.S.: F-ing Bring It" - Detailed Summary

Release Date: March 4, 2025
Host/Author: The Bulwark
Episode Title: Canada to the U.S.: F-ing Bring It

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Bulwark Takes, host Sam Stein engages in an in-depth discussion with Martin Wendell Jones, a seasoned commentator residing in Canada, to dissect the escalating trade tensions between the United States and Canada. The conversation delves into the origins of the current tariff wars, their profound impact on both nations, and the burgeoning sense of Canadian nationalism in response to perceived American aggression.

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Guest Background and Journey to Canada

[00:00 – 01:14]

Sam Stein opens the dialogue by introducing Martin Wendell Jones, highlighting his decade-long residence in Canada. Martin shares his personal journey, explaining that his move to Toronto in 2015 was motivated by his Canadian wife and a burgeoning interest in the country's vibrant culture and media landscape.

• Martin Wendell Jones: "Moved to Toronto, I think two weeks before Trump descended the escalator." [00:31]

This early departure from Canada allowed Martin to witness firsthand the shifting political dynamics as Donald Trump’s administration began to influence North American relations.

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Historical Context: Canada-U.S. Relations Under Trump

[03:07 – 05:04]

Martin reflects on the initial years of Trump's presidency, noting that while there were significant tensions and tariff battles, they were manageable and expected changes. However, the relationship has since deteriorated sharply.

• Martin Wendell Jones: "Canadians are taking Trump both seriously and literally." [06:24]

The discussion highlights how Canadian conservatives once resonated with Trumpian populism but have since found themselves in opposition as Trump's actions began to threaten Canadian sovereignty and the national way of life.

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Current Trade War and Tariffs

[05:07 – 07:34]

Sam Stein probes into the reasons behind Trump’s imposition of tariffs, questioning whether the official stance on fentanyl is merely a facade for more aggressive economic maneuvers.

• Martin Wendell Jones: "What Trudeau is saying is that the stakes really are existential, that Trump wants to devastate the Canadian economy." [07:46]

Martin emphasizes that Canadian leadership perceives the trade war as a direct assault on their sovereignty, with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau openly acknowledging that the pretext of fentanyl is unfounded.

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Canadian Nationalism and Cultural Response

[08:13 – 15:44]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring the resurgence of Canadian nationalism. Martin discusses how Canadians are rallying to protect their national identity and economy against American policies.

• Unnamed Canadian Writer: "These are Quebecois... people who love the government."

• Martin Wendell Jones: "There's a very prominent bi Canadian movement right now."

Examples include increased patriotism during hockey games, where American anthems were booed in favor of "O Canada," and the emergence of apps dedicated to sourcing Canadian products. This cultural shift signifies a collective effort to assert Canadian identity distinct from American influence.

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Political Implications and Government Responses

[09:16 – 11:30]

The conversation shifts to the political ramifications within Canada. The Liberal Party has seen a resurgence in popularity, correlating with the nationalistic fervor. Martin outlines various strategic responses proposed by Canadian leaders:

• Tariffs on American Products: Former Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland advocated for a 100% tariff on Tesla, targeting iconic American brands.

• Control Over Critical Resources: Ontario’s Premier Doug Ford has suggested banning exports of crucial minerals and resources, such as aluminum and lumber, which are vital for defense and industry.

• Intellectual Property Measures: Proposals include disregarding protections for trademarks and copyrights, aiming to undermine American economic interests creatively.

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Socioeconomic Impact on Canada

[11:30 – 16:33]

Martin provides a sobering analysis of the socioeconomic consequences of the trade war:

• Job Market: Approximately 2.5 million Canadian jobs are directly tied to American exports, risking significant losses due to tariffs.

• Panic Buying: Instances of panic buying have been observed, with Canadians stockpiling American goods they fear will become inaccessible.

  • Martin Wendell Jones: "People coming in and buying by the case, their favorite American alcohols that they're expecting not to be able to see anymore." [12:50]

• Economic Dependence: Despite efforts to pivot towards other trade relationships, Canada remains heavily reliant on the U.S. market, exacerbating the potential economic downturn.

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Cultural and Societal Preparations

[13:12 – 16:33]

The episode explores how Canadians are culturally and societally preparing for prolonged economic hardship:

• Promotion of Canadian Products: Apps and movements encouraging the purchase of domestic goods are proliferating, fostering economic resilience.

• National Unity: Trudeau’s frank acknowledgment of the existential threat has galvanized national unity, reminiscent of Canada's wartime mindset where citizens are prepared to endure hardships for the sake of sovereignty.

• Historical Reflection: Martin draws parallels to the 1960s when Canadian nationalism was suppressed during the Cuban missile crisis, contrasting it with today's vigorous defense of national identity.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[16:33 – 17:05]

Sam Stein wraps up the episode by highlighting the intense and often perplexing nature of the trade war, emphasizing the disconnect between the stated and underlying motives behind Trump's tariffs. Martin underscores the deeply entrenched sense of preparedness among Canadians, who are bracing for significant economic and cultural impacts.

• Martin Wendell Jones: "No one desires this trade war, but... they're far more willing to accept real pain in the course of defending that sovereignty and their independence." [16:27]

Sam thanks Martin for his insightful contributions, acknowledging the depth of understanding he has cultivated regarding Canadian sentiments and responses to American policies.

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Notable Quotes

• Martin Wendell Jones: "Canadians are taking Trump both seriously and literally." [06:24]

• Martin Wendell Jones: "What Trudeau is saying is that the stakes really are existential, that Trump wants to devastate the Canadian economy." [07:46]

• Sam Stein: "It's so mindless... the pretext is fentanyl, and it's clearly not the real reason." [16:33]

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Key Takeaways

• Escalating Tensions: The U.S.-Canada trade war has intensified under Trump's administration, moving beyond typical political disagreements to a full-fledged economic confrontation.

• Canadian Nationalism: There's a significant rise in Canadian patriotism and a collective effort to protect national sovereignty against American economic pressures.

• Economic Vulnerability: Canada faces substantial socioeconomic challenges due to its economic dependence on the U.S., with millions of jobs at risk.

• Cultural Reinforcement: Canadians are actively promoting domestic products and reinforcing their national identity through various cultural initiatives.

• Government Strategies: Canadian leadership is deploying a mix of economic retaliations and policy measures to counteract U.S. tariffs, though the long-term efficacy remains uncertain.

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This episode of Bulwark Takes provides a nuanced exploration of the strained relationship between Canada and the United States, highlighting the complexities of international trade, national identity, and the far-reaching consequences of political decisions on everyday lives.

Transcript

[Sam Stein]

Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, here in America, where we are tariffing the hell out of Canada, where my guest, our guest Martin Wendell Jones, is located. Martin, thank you for doing this. I know it's a difficult time. I know you're not on much rest, but we need to unpack the situation going on here with the tariffs. First of all, tell the viewers about your journey. You're not native Canadian, but you've been there for what, 10 years?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

That's right. My wife and I, she's Canadian.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

We met overseas in a grad program. We got married in 2015, and I.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Moved to Toronto, I think two weeks.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Before Trump descended the escalator.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

So I got out the door just in time, if you will.

[Sam Stein]

Or did you?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Yeah, it's all coming back now. Yeah. When I first came to Canada, I.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Was kind of fascinated by the culture I observed in Toronto especially, which is.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

A major cent of media and communications for the country.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Most of Canada's population, of course, lives in sort of a narrow band above the American border.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And there is a relatively small number.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Of cities that educated Canadians sort of.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Gravitate to for opportunities, those kinds. So I was kind of more of a literary sensibility.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

I was interested in working in magazines. And one of the first ones that I noticed here, homegrown product, Little Brother was the name. And it kind of articulates something about.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

The sort of Canadian culture that there's a way of, you know, in which the relationship the United States is inescapable. The, you know, most consequential Canadian prime.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Minister of the past century, Pierre Elliot.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Trudeau, once described this, the situation as.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Being like that of a mouse sleeping.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Next to an elephant. Anytime the elephant moves at all, it's going to affect the mouse, you know, even if it's nothing to the elephant.

[Sam Stein]

And is that mindset still. Is that still the mindset of most Canadians when you encounter them, or do they no longer think of themselves as mice?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

It's complicated is what I'll say to that. You know, in the past 10 years or the past 20 years, I should say, you know, Jan Martel, the great.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Canadian writer, said, receiving an award, that Canada was basically akin to the world's greatest hotel because it was so welcoming.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

It didn't have its own core culture. And Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Pierre's son, said in his first campaign for the.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Prime ministership, he said that Canada doesn't have like a mainstream or a core to its culture. And all of this was as a.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Way of framing Canada's sort of multicultural identity.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

People come from all over and they.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

All make a life here. And I think that that's still true. But suddenly, even among devoted progressives and liberal Canadians, there is this dawning neoconservative.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Mentality and this urge to protect this.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Precious democracy in North America against the.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Intrusions of our southern neighbor.

[Sam Stein]

Amazing.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

America's aggression has really created a fairly.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Remarkable moment for this sort of, like, newfound Canadian patriotism.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

It's most easily seen in the recent.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Events in Quebec with the hockey games between the US And Canada, where the American anthem was booed and people were.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Just belting out, oh, Canada.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

These are Quebecois that we're talking about.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

People whose main political party in the province is dedicated to the cause of Quebecois separatism. Yeah, people who love the government.

[Sam Stein]

Let's back up for a second. Obviously, we lived through four years of Trump, and you were there for the first four years of Trump. And there were tensions across the border, of course, but my recollection is they never got to the point of this. Am I misremembering or how would you describe the relationship during the first four years?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

There were certainly tensions, and there were also past tariff battles during the first Trump administration. One episode lasting for a little over a year. Those are kind of seen as par for the course.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Again, you know, if you're the mouse, you sort of expect the elephant to move around.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And Canadians are certainly accustomed to, you know, changes in American political orientation resulting from elections.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Things have gotten very, very different.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

There used to be a sort of.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Openness to Trump and Trumpian populism among Canadian conservatives. They emulated his tactics, his rhetoric, his style.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

They wanted to be these plain spoken tough guys. And some of them still are, like Ontario's Premier Doug Ford.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

They still talk in that way, but suddenly they have a very oppositional relationship.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

With Trump because they recognize that he.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Is making a threat to Canadian sovereignty.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And the Canadian way of life.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

I mean, it's really. It's registering as quite existential.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And I think that Americans might not appreciate just how angry Canadians are over the way that Trump is treating them.

[Sam Stein]

I want to get them. We'll play the Trudeau audio from today later on. But I want to get to what has been sort of perplexing me, which is, like, the simple question of why, like, why are. Why is. And maybe there's no real answer, but why is Trump doing this? I mean, the stated reason is fentanyl flowing through the Canadian border into the United States. In reality, that's not actually happening. I mean, the unstated reason is because he can. And the show of force is actually what he's going for. It's not really the actual policy. It's the demonstration of the policy. But what is the perception in Canada of why he's doing this?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

The Canadian perception of the trade war that Trump has begun is that it.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Represents a direct attack on Canadian sovereignty.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

It was remarkable today during Prime Minister.

[Sam Stein]

As in. As in he doesn't. They don't think Trump actually wants to rebalance the trade deficit or whatever it is. They think Trump actually wants to take over Canada. For real?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Yes. Canadians are taking Trump both seriously and literally. This was made very, very clear today.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

During Prime Minister Trudeau's press conference.

[Sam Stein]

All right, hold on one second. Hold on. Let's listen to it.

[Justin Trudeau]

I think in terms of what he wants, I heard he talked about banking again this morning in. In a tweet, which doesn't make any sense because American banks, 16American banks currently active in Canada holding about $113 billion worth of assets in this country. So the American banks are alive and well and prospering in Canada. It's an example of not really being able to see what it is that he wants, because even the excuse that he's giving for these Paris tariffs today of fentanyl is completely bogus, completely unjustified, completely false. So we actually have to fold back on the one thing he has said repeatedly, that what he wants is to see a total collapse of the Canadian economy because that'll make it easier to annex us, is the second half of his thought.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

This represents, as far as I know, the first time that Trudeau has openly come out and said what everyone here is thinking.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Which is that it was never about fentanyl. That was the thinnest pretext.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

He called it bogus, as you heard.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

What Trudeau is saying is that the stakes really are existential, that Trump wants.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

To devastate the Canadian economy. He wants to bulldoze resistance to his.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Expansionist plans, and he wants to, you.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Know, he wants to turn the entire sovereign nation the same color as the US on the giant risk war that.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

He inhabits in his mind. I don't think that it really goes much further than that. But this is, you know, the trade.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

War has been given wall to wall coverage since the terrorists were announced.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

You know, since Trump said back, you know, in the first weeks of his administration that this was his intent. And Trudeau is really, in stating things in this plain way, he is reinforcing.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

The sort of national unity that's already.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Developed in response to these tariffs.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

As I said before, there are people.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Who are even, I've seen people on Blue sky, mild mannered, well educated Canadians.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Who now want to dedicate their talents to the Canadian armed.

[Sam Stein]

Well, let's talk about that because you wrote about, first of all, all Canadians are mild mannered and well intentioned and good people, minus the four brothers. But putting that aside, you wrote about today the sort of creative ways that Canada might actually respond to this, not just tit for tat with tariffs, but using their intellectual prowess to try to, you know, inflict pain in their own Canadian type of way. What is it? Are they going to like go after Teslas? Like, how do, how are they going to do this?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

So actually, former Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Said last month when Teresa first announced.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

That there should be 100% tariff on Tesla specifically. So people are, they do know the targets that ought to be chosen to no Trump state.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, yeah.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

But also, you know, there's a very interesting balance of power between provinces and the federal government here and the provinces.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Each one, most of them have liquor.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Control boards and they're, you know, these are bodies that act as the, so the sole wholesaler for alcohol in each province.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

They are in many cases deciding to.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Simply stop selling American booze and to also stop providing it to Canadian restaurants and hotels and bars. And this would have a devastating effect on industries. For instance, in Kentucky, Premier Doug Ford.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Talked about going to Kentucky as part.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Of a larger tour where he met with a bunch of governors to tell them how bad the tariff idea was. And he said that both the governor, Andy beshear and Mitch McConnell both told him, don't touch our bourbon, Ford, are you crazy? I'm going after everything. That's of course, one. But there are a lot of other proposals floating around. They have to do with basically disregarding protections for intellectual property, for trademark, for copyright.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

There's a popular meme that's floating around.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

About generic their drugs torrent, their movies cut off energy. That's something that Ford has talked about.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Ontario is a major supplier of power.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

To Michigan, Minnesota, New York State. These are all places where there's a.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Lot of pain that can be brought.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

To bear very quickly through decisions like that. And also he's suggested, although it sounds.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Like Ford may have stepped back a little bit from that, but for the.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Premiere of Ontario, where two of five Canadians live, is a huge province with massive economic power.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Ford had said yesterday that he intended.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

To ban the export of certain crucial minerals related to like Defense production, aluminum, softwood, lumber.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

There are all kinds of things that potash for fertilizer, there are all kinds, uranium for power. There are all kinds of goods that Canada supplies in huge amounts of the.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

US the shortfall couldn't be made up easily from other suppliers and you know, either like toggling export taxes or banning outright some of these goods would have a huge effect on a variety of.

[Sam Stein]

But also ultimately Canada imports way more from the US than US imports from Canada. And it is no level headed economist is going to say that Canada ends up coming out better off here. I mean, they're going to take it on the chin. And so from a, from a socioeconomic standpoint, mostly the socio stuff because we talked about the economic stuff, but like how do you feel culturally? Canadians are preparing for this. I mean, they're going to see a sharp increase in the price of goods that they depend on. We can joke about bourbon, but like, you know, some people might actually like bourbon, right? And they might not be able to access to it. Are they looking to other nations to fill in the gap? It will take a while to do that for sure. And then secondarily, are they like, you know, conserving? I mean, are you going around seeing people like, you know, stockpile goods and you know, get ready for, you know, tough times?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

There certainly has been some amount of panic buying. I noticed this last month when the tariffs were first announced. I went to an LCBO here in the summer.

[Sam Stein]

What's an lcbo?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Sorry.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

I went to a Liquor Control Bureau.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Of Ontario, one of the outlets that's run by the state to control the flow of alcohol into the province. So I went to one of the retail stores and I talked to a surprisingly candid employee who told me all about people coming in and buying by the case, their favorite American alcohols that they're expecting not to be able to see anymore. That's the kind of thing is certainly happening.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Of course, looking for other trade relationships is a priority for Canadians right now. It has to be.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

They have no other option. Right.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

There is the possibility that Canada enters.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Into, you know, a new closer relationship potentially with China, which I think of course the United States would not welcome.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

With Europe, of course, people are talking.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

About potentially admission to the EU or at least into, you know, a sort of deeper relationship with the European economic area.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, I guess I've just been impressed, impressed by the cultural response. I mean, you saw Mike Myers on snl, you know, with the T shirt, we're not going to be annexed. You see the you mentioned the hockey games where just intense nationalism been being displayed by the Canadians. Are there other examples of that where it's just like we're rallying behind this flag? I mean, obviously politically, you're seeing the con, the Liberal Party actually score up in the polls here, and it's just, you know, resuscitated from the dead almost. But what are some other interesting cultural examples of this?

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Yeah, there's a very prominent bi Canadian movement right now. I have, I think, like three different apps on my phone that are just dedicated to helping source Canadian products. You know, just like scanning the shelf and figuring out the stuff that you should prioritize if that's important to you. There are, you know, it's.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Again, it ties back to this, like, sort of resurgent sense of Canadian patriotism that's so unusual.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

You know, it's really. In the early 1960s, with the prime ministership of John Diefenbaker, Canadian political philosopher.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

George Grant marked the end of the Diefenbaker administration as the end of Canadian nationalism.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And it's because he was to put in American. American missiles on Canadian territory during the Cuban missile crisis.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

He ended up relenting. But that was, you know, in Grant's.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Estimation, like, that was the sort of last gasp of Canada's, you know, nationalistic project, like the possibility of Canada charting.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Its own course independent from the United States. And he regarded that as the point that Canada instead accepted a kind of vassalage.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And so that's one of the things that makes it so interesting. I mean, of course, the Canadian and American economies are deeply intertwined and enmeshed.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Reliant on one another for a variety of things.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

There's a relationship of real, you know, national friendship, I think, between Canadians and Americans. But at the same time, I think.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Canadians have really realized just how different they are from Americans.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

And they are very dedicated to the.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Protection and preservation of those differences and.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

To the defense of the national sovereignty. The. The mindset is really almost like a wartime mindset.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

No one is saying it's going to be a good time.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

We're just going to like, knock the Americans out with a one, two punch. They are absolutely expecting hardship. There's something like two and a half.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Million Canadian jobs that are directly tied.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

To American exports that could be at.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

Risk as a result of a massive trade war. The, of course, the number of jobs that be lost would be far lower than that, but it'd still be huge.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Consider a population is a tenth the size of the United States. Everyone is expecting hardship.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

No one wants for this to go ahead.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

No one desires this trade war, but.

[Unnamed Canadian Writer]

They'Re preparing for it. And I think because they understand that the stakes are existential, they're far more.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

Willing to accept real pain in the course of defending that sovereignty and their independence.

[Sam Stein]

Well, it's just like, it's so mindless. Over. Over what? Like, what are we doing here? That I think that's what makes it all the more hard to fathom, is that the premise, the pretext, is fentanyl, and it's clearly not the real reason. So, anyways, thank you for doing this, Martin. I know. I know you have very little rest, but this was very informative. And you know what? For someone who's only been in Canada for 10 years, you got, like. You got a good Canada vibe, man.

[Martin Wendell Jones]

I want the flag today for a reason.

[Sam Stein]

Yes, thank you. I will. I will smuggle some bourbon up there for you. And thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. And forever, everyone who watched, thank you.