Command Post: Why Are Trump’s Top Officials Still Using Signal?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – Command Post: Why Are Trump’s Top Officials Still Using Signal?

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: Ben Parker
Guest: Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Date: July 1, 2026

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Overview

This episode focuses on the ongoing controversy regarding the use of the Signal messaging app by the highest levels of the Trump administration for sensitive and official government business, despite prior scandals and explicit warnings not to do so. The discussion explores the legal and security implications of this practice, the dangers of erasing governmental records, and broader concerns about U.S. foreign and defense policy under the Trump administration with particular focus on Iran, relations with U.S. allies, and how adversaries and allies view current American actions. The episode concludes with reflections on what it means to celebrate July 4th as a member of the U.S. military serving abroad.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Signal Chats & Government Accountability

[01:00–06:35]

• Background: The Atlantic reported that top officials in the Trump administration (including Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State/National Security Advisor, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs) maintain a private Signal chat, even after previous controversies (“Signal-gate”) and direct presidential warnings.
• Why It Matters: Using Signal, especially with auto-deleting messages, circumvents the Federal Records Act and the Presidential Archives Act, potentially violating both legal and historical record-keeping norms.
• Historical Importance: Both guest and host underscore the vital necessity of maintaining records for future historians, policy reviews, and accountability.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “There is no way it’s a good thing, Ben. And it’s also sort of an illegal thing.” [01:59]
  • Ben Parker: “Auto-deleting signal chat at the highest levels of the administration. Not a good thing.” [03:35]
• Security Risks: Signal and WhatsApp are not secure against foreign intelligence agencies; both U.S. and allied officials have been warned and some directly hacked by Russia.
  • Rep. Don Bacon (via Parker): “Signal is not secure. It is not secure. I was notified by law enforcement, he says, and House cyber experts that Russia hacked my Signal months ago.” [05:52]
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling (regarding hacks): “Those who were hacked, and I know this for a fact, were told what to do about it.” [06:35]
• Bottom Line: Keeping official communications off-record or on insecure apps imperils both transparency and national security.

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2. Iran: Chaos, Goals, and “Memorandums of Misunderstanding”

[09:06–17:54]

• U.S. Objectives: The administration demonstrates an unclear, piecemeal approach toward Iran, lacking cohesive strategy or unified objectives.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “This is a chaotic approach to attempting to reach strategic objectives. When you don’t have those objectives... this is the kind of sclerotic action you get where it becomes piecemeal and somewhat ad hoc.” [09:36]
• Negotiation Dynamics: The U.S. is relying on intermediaries (like the Qataris and businesspeople such as Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff) for indirect talks, while actual military and diplomatic efforts appear disjointed.
• Communication Gaps: Conflicting signals from U.S. government figures and inconsistency in public statements versus negotiation tables confuse Iranian counterparts.
• Presidential Soundbite Analysis: Trump continues to announce military operations and shifting objectives (“denuclearization”), but Iran’s stance remains firm, and the cycle of bombings is unproductive.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “We hit them very hard again last weekend. And my response... it didn’t do anything other than what we’ve been doing in the past because Iran is still adamant about their approach.” [13:18]
• Military Expenditure and Effectiveness: The U.S. is expending vast resources with limited strategic effect, targeting the same infrastructure multiple times.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “We are far outspending anything that might be considered a minor action. This has turned into a major conflict...” [17:05]
• Lack of Adaptation: Neither military nor diplomatic strategy is adjusting to the failures or realities on the ground.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “In past wars, I think we've attempted to adapt and change our patterns. I haven't seen any of that in this conflict.” [18:11]

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3. Global Perceptions: How Allies and Rivals See the U.S. Now

The United Kingdom

[22:48–27:40]

• Main Issues: Loss of trust, lack of information sharing, and perceived subservience demanded by the U.S. have strained the “special relationship.”
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “Trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets. Buckets. We’ve lost buckets full of trust with our British allies...” [25:23]
  • If not America's best friend, the UK will focus more on Europe/Commonwealth.
• Host Perspective: A shift in British foreign alignment away from the U.S. is not good for American interests.

Poland

[28:23–32:21]

• Rising Power: Poland is viewed as a top European power, particularly on military and values. Their focus is security in Europe and countering Russia.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “Poland… is now one of the major powers. So we should be listening to them.” [28:34]
• Concerns: If the U.S. is seen as unreliable or as coddling Russia, Poland’s ongoing Western orientation could be imperiled.
• Internal Dynamics: Current Polish leadership is divided between pro-European and MAGA-inspired nationalist factions.

Russia

[32:48–38:41]

• Kremlin’s Perceptions: Russian leadership overestimates its own leverage and misunderstands the true nature of American alliances.
  • Ben Parker: “Putin thinks that the world works the way he wants Russia to work… there aren’t allies. Russia doesn’t have allies. Russia has countries that it dominates or to which it’s hostile.” [34:51]
• Strategic Failure: While Putin hoped to divide the US and NATO, current events have only strengthened NATO and encouraged European self-reliance.
  • Lt. Gen. Hertling: “NATO has become stronger. They realize that they have to exist without the United States.” [36:46]

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4. Reflections on July 4th in Uniform

[40:42–45:47]

• Personal Military Memories: Lt. Gen. Hertling shares vivid stories of celebrating Independence Day while stationed around the world—from West Point, Germany, Korea, to Iraq.
  • Hertling (on tradition): “It struck me... this was something different, that the 4th of July… now it was something different. . . . an example of how American soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines all around the world are dedicated to preserving our liberty.” [40:42]
• Symbols of Freedom: Observing July 4th abroad can deepen appreciation for liberty, especially when among those who have lived without it.
• Call to Service: Both military and civilian acts in service to the country are meaningful expressions of patriotism—something to consider during the 250th anniversary year.
  • Ben Parker: “Sometimes the best way to appreciate freedom is to spend time with people who have experienced unfreedom.” [45:47]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Signal Security:
  “You ought to really knock it off because you’re giving our enemies our secrets.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling [05:41]
• On Historical Records:
  “If we have auto-deleting federal records, we’re not going to get that perspective and we’re not going to learn lessons.”
  — Ben Parker [03:35]
• On Trust with Allies:
  “Trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets...We've lost buckets full of trust with our British allies...”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling [25:23]
• On U.S. Foreign Policy:
  “This is a chaotic approach to attempting to reach strategic objectives. When you don’t have those objectives...this is the kind of sclerotic action you get.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling [09:36]
• On American Strength and Limitations:
  “The United States has the best military in the world...but we are not communicating or sharing effectively with our allies.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling [22:48]
• On July 4th Abroad:
  “It was just an example of how American soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines all around the world are dedicated to preserving our liberty.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling [44:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] — Signal-gate introduction and summary of The Atlantic story
• [01:59] — Why Signal use is “not a good thing” (legal/historical context)
• [05:52] — Concrete security examples: Signal not secure, Russia hacking officials
• [09:36] — The Iran situation: piecemeal strategy and diplomatic disconnect
• [13:18] — Response to Trump’s statements on Iran strategy
• [17:05] — U.S. costs and the limits of bombing campaigns
• [22:48] — How the UK views American actions and the effects on the special relationship
• [28:34] — Poland’s perspective and regional dynamics
• [32:48] — Russia’s (mis)calculation and the unpredictable future of its regime
• [36:46] — NATO resilience in the face of U.S. unpredictability
• [40:42] — Reflections on July 4th in uniform and American values

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Conclusion

This episode of Bulwark Takes highlights the perils of insecure communication at the top levels of government, the consequences of eroding institutional norms, and the vital significance of maintaining American alliances. In a time of heightened uncertainty and global instability, both the host and guest urge seriousness about process, security, and the values that define American democracy—especially as the nation approaches its 250th birthday.

Final words:
“This is a thing we’re all trying to do together in this country: to have a free, democratic, self-governing country. And so if you can serve it, it will help you appreciate it.”
— Ben Parker [45:47]

Transcript

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

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[Ben Parker]

Hi, I'm Ben Parker from the Bulwark. This is Command Post on the Bulwark takes feed, joined as always by the Bulwark Zone, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. General, it's great to see you again. We got a lot to talk about. We have to start with the breaking news from the Atlantic, which is more Signal stuff. We were just talking a little bit before we went live here about some of your experiences with Signal. So I'll just summarize the story real quick and say that the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State slash National Security Advisor and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs had their own private signal chat. Even after there was the whole signal gate thing. In the early months, this administration where a bunch of senior national security officials in the chump cabinet invited the editor of the Atlantic into their secret Signal chat where they were planning military strikes. And even after the President said hey, maybe don't use Signal so much, they've still been using Signal extensively for sensitive and official government business. General, is there any way this is a good thing?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

There is no way it's a good thing, Ben. And it's also sort of an illegal thing. You know, when I first joined the Joint Staff, one of the first messages I got, which I had never heard before, was that all of my communications on both the secret Internet protocol router and and the non classified Internet proto router, the Nipper and the sipper nets, which what we use to communicate with and anything that was on our official BlackBerry we're subject to collection after our time in the job because it's part of historical records. Now the Presidential Archives act specifically designates that for members of the administration. But there are all kinds of different people who have any kind of records keeping on on government equipment kept for historical purposes and for the potential of class action suits or legal matters or all that. So you know the Atlantic article about the three of them, specifically Secretary Hexa, Secretary Rubio and Chairman of the Joint Staffs Cain having an auto deleting chat room if you will to tells me they don't want to save some of the things and we don't know whether they're classified or non class or unclassified. I know very well one of the authors of this article, Nancy Youssef, who's a terrific reporter, she was embedded with me in Iraq for a long time. She's top notch. She understands this kind of stuff. I think she understands it a whole lot more than some of the people that are using these networks.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, ditto Shane Harris, an excellent and very experienced national security reporter. I remember when I was an intern at one point in the government, you know, we had a whole training about the Federal Records act and you know, anything you produce that has to do with your job that you write down is a federal record to remember at the end of the summer I was an intern, I had to turn in all my meeting notes. You know, I couldn't just throw those out. You can't just throw that out. That could be a federal record just because I was in a meeting taking notes for people. So yeah, auto deleting signal chat at the highest levels of the administration. Not a good thing. And as you mentioned we have these rules because we want people in the executive branch, people in the legislative branch, future historians to be able to go through and look at what was happening. We had a question when we did our mailbag episode about can you do an after action report for policy? And the answer is that's what a lot of historians and scholars do is they do the after action report. But it takes 25, 50 years to get the right perspective. And if we have auto deleting federal records, we're not going to get that perspective and we're not going to learn lessons.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah. And it gets to the point if people remember back when we were talking about AARs after action review, the first step is what was supposed to happen, what did happen and these kind of things that are being deleted tell you what actually happened. So the person who's involved doesn't get to say five years later, well, what I really did was this. No, no, no. It's right here in record. This is what you did. And that's what drives the point. But we're now talking about process and after action. We haven't yet talked about security. Oh, yeah, that's kind of a big thing. But it doesn't seem to be such a big thing with many in this administration. Every nation, every, let's put it this way, every major nation in the world can hack into signals or WhatsApp. They can read the conversations as they are ongoing. They don't even have to wait until the chat's open. It's, it's over the airways. And I don't think that message has become clear to some of these people because as I understand it, isn't the Atlantic the same one that published the first story about this?

[Ben Parker]

Wasn't that right? Yeah.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, that's kind of an after action in and of itself. You were doing it then, you're still doing it now. You ought to really knock it off because you're giving our enemies our secrets.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. And we should just emphasize that that's not conjecture. We know, we know for a fact that signal, you know, if it's me and my friends on a signal chat for whatever reason, because you know, we have different, you know, some people are on Android, some people are on Apple, whatever. Yeah, that's probably more secure than, you know, Facebook messenger or whatever. But it's not government secure. It's not multi. Billions of dollars in secure communications and one time pads and all the fancy technology. Oh, and by the way, here's Representative Don Bacon who is a one star general in the Air Force, saying signal is not secure. It is not secure. I was notified by law enforcement, he says, and House cyber experts that Russia hacked my signal months ago.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Okay, I don't, I don't know how you want me to couch this, Ben, but what I would say, I know Representative Bacon. He was once a cohort of mine in Iraq. He was on the staff in Iraq when I was there commanding a division, not my staff, but the headquarters in Baghdad. And he was one of their planners. He is also a very adamant opponent of Russia's intervention in Ukraine. And what I will tell you, and I can't tell you how I know this, but I know that there were several retired and active general officers who were notified by quote, law enforcement. And what I'm talking about is the Cyber Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation about Russia hacking General officer signals and WhatsApp channels. And those who were hacked, and I know this for a fact, were told what to do about it. And if that's not enough information, I don't want to give you any more. But having been banned from Russia because of my support for Ukraine in one of the early lists that Putin gave out, I would tell you I know quite a few of the people who were being monitored on signals and WhatsApp. It's not hard to do.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, you again. We know this isn't a hypothetical. This isn't a, oh, this might be a threat. When they don't say you might be hacked, they say you've been hacked, and here is what to do now. They give you instructions. Yeah, that's. Speaking of those lists of people who've been banned from Russia, I'm really disappointed they stopped putting those out because I was really gunning for a position on one of those for a while. I was doing my best to try to get banned. They never. They didn't pay attention to me. Oh, well.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, I was on the very first list. So, yeah, I got that going for me.

[Ben Parker]

You know, that is. That is. That is a major decoration in my

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

mind, along with 950 other people, of which about six of them were dead. So I don't know what that means either.

[Ben Parker]

But, yeah, they really can't go to Russia. All right, we should move on from the latest signal gate and talk about the latest in Iran briefly. You've written a lot for us. One of the themes that you always return to is that when we are trying to accomplish something in foreign policy, all the different elements of national power have to work together. The economic power that we can bring to bear, the intelligence and diplomatic power and the military power all have to be orchestrated to achieve the same result. Like, it's like using all of your limbs together. You know, you wouldn't try to open a pickle jar with one hand and drive your car with the other.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Right.

[Ben Parker]

But I think what we're seeing now is we're trying these sort of seriatum. Like, we tried the economic lever and then we tried the military lever, and. And now we are holding indirect negotiations with the Iranians in Doha. We are represented by Jared Kushner and Steve Whitkoff, and they are meeting with the Qataris, who are then meeting with the Iranians, but we're not meeting directly with the Iranians. And meanwhile, there's more fighting in the street of Hormuz. Again, except when it stops. I mean, is this just how it's going to be forever? Is this a frozen conflict now?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

No, because frozen conflicts usually don't have as much craziness as part of them. You know, who's on each side. What I would say is what you just teed up is exactly right, that this is a chaotic approach to attempting to reach strategic objectives. When you don't have those strategic objectives at the very beginning, when you're not really sure what you want to do, when you haven't included elements of your own government, as well as allies and supporters and. And understand what foes are looking for. This is the kind of sclerotic action you get where it becomes piecemeal and somewhat ad hoc. Dealing with the Qataris, okay, that might be good. There might be an inroad, but there might not be either. I mean, the Iranians are basically saying, we don't want to deal with the Qataris. The Iranians are saying every time President Trump or Secretary Rubio says something about what is going to happen next, they say, that's not happening. We're not doing that. And why do you think that that's what's going to occur when you haven't talked to us? It's an issue that both sides, Ben, are saying the other side is violating the Memorandum of Understanding. And that in and of itself is kind of crazy, because the Memorandum of Understanding is not a document that requires adherence. It's something that says, we're going to talk about these things and even going into future talks. And this is one of the reasons Iran walked away from last weekend. You have to commit to doing certain things. And every time we said we've committed through Vice President Vance or Secretary Rubio, President Trump will put something else up as a tweet saying we're going to blow Iran to smithereens or bomb them on their head or whatever he happens to say. So it's just. It gets back to that favorite movie of mine, Drumline. There has not been one band, one sound in all of this.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, it is really more of a memorandum of misunderstanding from the very beginning when we first saw the leaked text and people were going through and finding or not we first saw the official text, we were going through and finding the differences between the English and Farsi versions. And they were kind of significant differences in meaning. And, you know, the administration is trying to negotiate from a position of strength, but they don't have one. We do have this clip of Trump, and I want to play this, and then we'll, we'll comment on sort of what kind of position we're actually negotiating from meeting with Secretary Hexess and General

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[Ben Parker]

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Iran's adherence to the mou?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, I think they've come a long way. We hit them very hard last week. I think they're fine. I think we're going to, it's the nuclearization of Iran. It's very simple. And Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon otherwise all of this stuff that we look at, all of these things that we do. So can I, can I point out two things? First, please, we have the President and I'm sure he's a great family man, but behind him we're standing John, Don Jr. And Eric, and I think it was Don Jr. S new wife. These individuals are privy to all the inside information inside the beast which they're about to get into as well as flying around on Air Force One. I mean, let's go back to the Signals app again. It seems like national security is an open book right now. We're telling those who are business people who are making deals with foreign government big deals like Don Jr. And Eric have just made everything that's going on within the government. Okay, let's go fast forward now to what the President just said. We hit them very hard again last weekend. And my response to that is yeah, and it didn't do anything other than what we've been doing in the past because they are, Iran is still adamant about their approach. And you know, there's been a lot of, and I'll say this, Ben, because we're trying to give the inside information for our listeners. When you see a lot of media reports saying that Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Kaine and Secretary Hegseth are meeting with the President to talk about options, future military options. That happens all the time. This is what's called course of action development. But the media will tend to smack onto and glom onto what's going on in the military because that's an indicator of what bombs are going to fall next. They aren't reporting as much of meetings with the economic advisors, with the Secretary of the treasury, with the Director of the CIA, with the ODNI acting. So we don't know what's going on in those spaces because they're not sexy. I'm kind of concluding truthfully that not a whole lot is going on in those spaces.

[Ben Parker]

Yes, I think that's right.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

So go figure. We Have Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff leading delegations. Two businessmen, and God bless them for being businessmen. I could care less. But they're trying to deal with Iranians, Persians, who are well versed in what diplomacy is and how precise words are important on documents. Like you said, the difference between Farsi and English is going to be a huge chasm. So all of these things are contributing to some of our. I don't want to say failures, but I kind of do want to say failures.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. I mean, it's not a success, this

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

is not a well performing team. And it's not because I have Trump derangement syndrome or that I'm a libtard or anything like that. It's just this is not how these things are done and it's causing problems on the world stage.

[Ben Parker]

I think, I think Trump got convinced after, you know, maybe after Venezuela, maybe after a whole series of small scale military interventions and operations in a few different places that the, if he, if he clicked the military button, good things would happen. And he has not updated that mental calculus since his war in Iran failed. And when it failed to achieve his objectives, you can tell because he keeps on changing the objectives, even the one he just listed.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Right.

[Ben Parker]

The denuclearization of Iran. They give up their nuclear. Well, they just announced for the first time ever, we are publicly committing to getting nuclear weapons. They always kept that secret before. Now it's not a secret right now. They just announced it. So Trump, it's the definition of insanity. He keeps on thinking if we drop more bombs, maybe the next bomb will do with the previous thousand didn't. And there's just no reason to believe that. Also, if you look at what the, what Central Command has announced that they were targeting in Iran, it was missile infrastructure, it was missile storage facilities, and it was radar systems, all of which Iran has reconstituted. And we've talked about this reconstituted since we were bombing those heavily in March and April. So we're just going after the same targets. As you always say, every time you think you've got the last one, there's always more. I don't see how we get any. I don't see how we don't keep just doing this stupid dance again and again and again until one day Iran died. Nuclear weapon.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah, I think there have been, and I can't recall the names of the individuals, but there have been several economists who have really weighed the price of this war in terms of the tit for tat, US versus Iran. And it was mostly in terms of fiscal resources. And we are far outspending anything that might be considered a minor action. This has turned into a major conflict from the resource standpoint, and people are still there, and they're still prepared to drop bombs. And as the President continues to think that that's the solution to a problem, if he continues to drop more, it's not only going to cost more, but it's going to further deplete an already announced depleted supply of munitions.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, I mean, it is. It is in some ways war on the cheap. It is in other ways war on the very expensive. And this is just the way that basically, since Vietnam, the United States has chosen to make war is that we will spend more money in exchange for losing fewer people.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah, and I'll interrupt you there, Ben, for a second and say in past war, we have. Because we always try and find the technologically advanced solution. Right. But at the same time, in past wars, I think we've attempted to adapt. Adapt and to change our patterns. I haven't seen any of that in this conflict.

[Ben Parker]

No, I think that's exactly right. What I mean, Trump is more than happy to deplete munition stocks to, you know, reveal some of our most exquisite capabilities, like some of the, some of the sea drones that the Navy has been using in the street of Hormuz to, you know, tip our hand to some of our adversaries, which is the next thing we're going to talk about. It's just when we face casualties that he gets really uncomfortable, and that's put him in this bind where if he wants to do something more aggressive in Iran, it's going to cause casualties, and he's not willing to do that. But he also can't think of anything to do other than lob a few bombs every now and again. And that's clearly not working, is just going around and around in circles, and it's very frustrating. But we did want to talk about, you know, are, are we learning? Are we adapting? How are we going about this? Are we making good decisions? And, and how are people around the world answering those questions? You pointed me to this really interesting article in Defense One by Peter Singer in which he tries to imagine a conversation basically between Chinese intelligence and the American government about the US Military and the Iran war. So tell us a little bit about what you thought while reading this really interesting article.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah. What Mr. Singer does, in a very unique way, is he puts himself in the position of a Chinese analyst reporting to the People's Republic, the ccc. What's called the Chairman's Committee within the People's Liberation army. And what it is is truthfully a kind of document that many of us in the military have seen throughout our career. It is here's the intelligence that we're seeing, here's what we're seeing, here's how it applies to how the other nation is doing their business and here's what it generates for us and in terms of their strengths and weaknesses and how we can either counter their strengths or attack their weaknesses. So that's what Singer does in this piece, and he does it in five different categories. What the Chinese military is learning from the US military from our actions in Iran and how they can apply it in the future. Fascinating article. I would highly recommend it to everyone. It's not behind a paywall, it's on defense one. And what you and I are going to do and what I think we've already done. If I can give a prelude, we've taken it beyond China. And I was so enamored with this article that I thought I'd write something about not just what the Chinese are looking at, but what everyone in different parts of the globe is watching in terms of the American actions in Iran and how it's affecting both our friends and our foes. In a world where business owners everywhere

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[Ben Parker]

So the first country I know you wanted to talk about was our closest ally, historically our closest ally in many ways, period. The United Kingdom. What do you think they are thinking and their defense intelligence, excuse me, their defense and intelligence establishment about what just happened in Iran?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, in, in all the countries that I talk about and I'll, I'll go back to the UK in just a second. They all conclude that the mel, the United States has the best military in the world, the preeminent military, that they can do things that a lot of other nations can't do, even those that are bigger, like the Chinese military. But in the case of the uk, in the case of the UK what they are most concerned about is alliance information and communication, intelligence sharing and how allies play a part. So if you break down what we did and didn't do during the Iran war, we really were kind of non committal in each of those three areas that are pretty important to the uk. I mean, you started off by saying they're one of our most important allies. And they are, they've always been with us. Even during tough times when their Prime Ministers have taken heat for some American bad actions, they've still been with us in Iraq and Afghanistan. So what they're concluding, first of all, being a member of Five Eyes, that they're not sure they want to share intelligence with us because they know we're not going to share intelligence with them. From the standpoint of diplomacy, they were not notified according to public record on what we were going to do and how we were going to do it. They were then treated like second class citizens in terms of allies, when they were browbeaten by the President saying, let us use some of your ships. How come you're not shipping your navy, the world's best navy, allegedly to help us in the Persian Gulf. So all of those things compound a relationship between that has been built on, truthfully probably about 200 years worth of partnering in different conflicts where we've always stood together against different threats.

[Ben Parker]

So what do you think? I mean, if you are, let's say, the next long term Prime Minister of the UK because they're going through a bit of a transition right now and you get your first briefing.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

That's a very nice way to say it.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, Bit of a transition. Let's say you're the next, the next long term Prime Minister of the UK and you get your first briefing from your, you know, top intelligence briefer and you say like what, what should I know about the United States? Right, Like I, you know, let's say I'm roughly 55 years old or so. So, you know, I remember the 80s, the 90s, the Blair and Bush era, that kind of thing. I've also seen what's happened the last 10 years or so. What is the thing that I should know about the United States right now? What do you think is that briefer's answer?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, if I were the briefer, the first thing I would do was probably cite to that new prime minister. Prime Minister Carney's speech at Halifax where he said, the world is upside down, it's changed. We cannot depend on the United States the way we once depended on them. And even if the midterms occur and there's a blue wave and the next president's Democrat, it's going to take a whole lot longer to regain trust. I keep going back to the old saying, trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets. Buckets. We've lost buckets full of trust with our British allies and many of our others. So that new prime minister is going to say, hey, I'm all about the national security of the United Kingdom. I really don't care what's going to happen in America next. That's up to them. But I'm going to watch them very closely and not trust them a whole lot in terms of what they're trying to do with me. No matter how much they say, it's going to be about all of what they do. Because this is the hard part, Ben. It's not just President Trump and his cabinet. It is the 77 million Americans that voted for him.

[Ben Parker]

Right.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

It is a lack of understanding of how the world works today in terms of supply chains, alliances, dependence on one another. So if I were briefing, they would never ask me to brief a UK Prime Minister because I'm too crude. It would have to be in much better political language. But that would be the gist of, I think, what his exchequer is going to say to him.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, I think that's right. Basically, since the end of World War II, there have been sort of three poles of British foreign policy. One of them has been, we're the Americans best friends. One of them has been, we have the Commonwealth and the legacy of the British Empire. And so we have, you know, these special relationships all over the world. And one of them has been, we're a European power, and it's sort of balanced all three of those. And right now, what that means is if they're not America's best friend, they have other options and they're going to be more closely integrating with Europe. More. More probably more closely relying on their special relationships around the world through the Commonwealth, and less focused on being our best friend, which is ultimately not good for us.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah. And one other thing I'd add to that, and that's the cultural dynamic of the uk. You know, they have been a world superpower at one time in their. In their history, and knowing the British the way I do, they are not going to want to be subservient to anyone. And yet what we've seen over the last 18 months is members of the Trump administration have, in both formal documents, in spoken word and in interactions, or lack of interactions, they have messaged that the UK is subservient to the United States. We want you to do what we tell you to do. And that just doesn't fly, not just with the uk, but many other nations that we could talk about.

[Ben Parker]

I want to get back to that point when we talk about Russia. But first, I know you wanted to talk about Poland, so what's going on in Warsaw? Because Poland is, in many ways sort of a pivot country in Europe.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, what I would tell you is, and I've said this in one of my articles once recently, that we used to keep track of an order of merit list of the power countries in Europe and how they were changing. Poland quickly entered the top five while I was commanding in Europe, and I think they're probably one of the top three right now. And I won't tell you where I rank them, but they have now a very good government, they have an extremely strong military, they have the right values in terms of their position in Europe. And I think, you know, there would be some that might even say that whereas Germany was once the major power in Europe during the Cold War, Poland, I think is now one of the major powers. So we should be listening to them. And in some cases we are, and in some cases we're not. So, from a Polish perspective, their center of focus is Europe, period. I mean, they are heavily engaged in the world scene, in the global supply chain, but they are most interested in the security of Europe and the countering of the Russian monolith. So if you take those two things into play in terms of an assessment, when you see our current administration continuing to support, either openly or covertly, the Russian monolith, that doesn't do well in terms of relations with Poland. And Poland has built since about 2004, probably the best military in Europe, the largest and the most capable, and they've done it Purposely because they've seen what happens in the past when other nations get overrun, and they have often been one of those. So they are not going to let that happen again. And if you don't see the support and the partnership with the United States and you're not granted kind of the special category that they should be granted, I think they will not be happy about that.

[Ben Parker]

I think they're also going to note very clearly that we are not focused on Europe and that we're spending a lot of time and attention other places. And they're going to say, okay, well, the Americans aren't focused here, so it's just us. I would also say if people want to read a little bit more about Poland, very interesting article we had we published at the Bulwark by Daliborohaj, I think, last week about how Trump's friend in Poland is doing Putin a favor. The president of Poland, Nosky, is a big MAGA ally. He's a big sort of Polish nationalist, not Russia friendly, but hostile to Ukraine. And he's been doing his best to muck up Polish Ukrainian relations. The prime minister of Poland, Donald Tusk, is much more pro Ukrainian, much more sort of pro Western, pro European, if you will. So they're having a little bit of a battle internally and externally over what direction to take right now.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Hey, as long as you mention Ukraine. Can I jump into that for just a segment, please. Is reports that President Zelensky has met with former general and current ambassador to the UK General Zaluzny, and asked them straight up, are you going to run for president next year? And Zaluzhny said, yes, I am. So that will be an interesting dynamic to look forward to. Here you've got this battlefield hero commander who's over the last couple of years since he was relieved of command, has been an ambassador and has learned a whole lot more about politics. That will be an interesting matchup.

[Ben Parker]

I wonder. I know Zelensky has hinted in the past that he might not run for reelection right. When it is when they are, you know, constitutionally allowed to have elections. So I wonder if he was going to Zalusny to confirm that choice or maybe to offer an endorsement or what? It's interesting. All right, let's move on to Russia. What are the intelligence analysts in Moscow telling their supreme command about the American war in Ukraine?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, the first thing I will tell you is every time I dealt with the Russians, it was obvious to me that they thought they were a much greater power than they actually were. And that rang through in Everything they thought they could dictate terms, they were, to a degree, very transactional, something that we tend to be right now. So, in terms of the war in Ukraine, I'm not sure what Mr. Putin is thinking right now. He's. Let's use the doctrinal term. He's getting his ass handed to him right now on multiple fronts. And I think there's been a lot of speculation how there may be an end coming to the Putin regime in the near future. And whereas a lot of people will jump up and down for joy for that, it's almost never good in the history of Russia when they change command of their supreme leaders. So there's always some difficulties that come with that. Yes, I'm all for overthrowing Putin, but it's going to be what comes next that will be important. What does Putin think right now about the US War in Iran and how we might further either support or not support Ukraine? He's very happy about what he sees happening to us in Iran, to be sure. There's no doubt about that. He's, I think, confused, and that would be a kind term about what the US Is going to do in Ukraine, because he sees a president, on one hand, who seems to be supportive of Russia, but on the other hand, in the last couple weeks, we've seen a Congress rebel against that by voting for Ukraine aid and supporting openly Ukrainian advancement. And we're seeing. And everybody, by the way, in the United States likes a winner. And if they're paying attention, which most people have not been, Ukraine has increasingly become a winner in terms of their operations over the last six months.

[Ben Parker]

Absolutely. The other thing I'd. I said, I said we talk about allies a little bit. And, you know, Putin, not unlike our president, is a man with a lot of power and of a certain age, and finds it very difficult to update his thinking on a lot of things. I think for both Putin and for Trump, the world kind of stopped in the late 80s, early 90s, and they haven't really caught up. Putin thinks that the world works the way he wants Russia to work, which is that there is the center and there are people who are vassals of the center, essentially. There aren't allies. Russia doesn't have allies. Russia has countries that it dominates or countries to which it's hostile, basically. And he thinks that that's the way American alliances work, too. He basically thinks that the European Union is a tool of the Americans. He thinks that NATO is just a tool of the Americans. And right now, I think if I were a Good Russian intelligence analyst. And I'm sure they have such people. I would be saying, yeah, what we're seeing here is that these alliances are not just sort of lord vassal, patron client relationships, and that they're actually much more complicated than that and in some ways much more even and autonomous between the United States and, you know, Brussels or the particular countries of Europe or the UK And I wonder if Putin is going to think. I doubt Putin is going to get the message. Oh, my conception of the way the American alliance system works has been wrong for 50 years. He's probably going to think, oh, that means that the vassals are rebelling against the. Against the metro, which is a different sort of thing. So I guess my point here is that I really doubt Putin's getting a clearer understanding of what's going on, even if his intelligence services are giving him a good idea, which, you know, might be something that happens in other countries, too.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, what I said early on in the war in 2022, when Russia first invaded, was Russia had five strategic objectives. I won't talk about the first four because they all involved Ukraine. But the fifth one was further divide the US And NATO and further execute internal divisions within the US because he saw a truly divided society in the United states after the 2018 elections. Okay, so he didn't. He didn't achieve any of his four objectives against Ukraine, but he has divided the US and NATO, but it hasn't turned out in a good way for him. NATO has become stronger. They realize that they have to exist without the United States. They are attempting to do that right now. There are, there are blocks within NATO. We've already talked about the strength of Poland. We've seen Germany and France reinvigorate their defense spending and their economic and diplomatic core. We've seen the formation of The Nordic Baltic 8, which is a powerful group of nations in the northern part of the NATO alliance. We've seen two new members of Sweden and Finland join NATO, which didn't want to join in the first place. They wanted to remain independent. The only thing that might be better or would be worse for Russia is if Switzerland decided to join NATO. That would really be a coup. But I think you're seeing Mr. Putin saying, oh, my gosh, I accomplished an objective because of Trump dividing the US and NATO. But NATO has become even further convinced that they can stand up to Russia, and they can. So that's been a fascinating dynamic, and I'm sure that's part of Mr. Putin's calculation as well.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, I think that is, I think in the interest of time, we're going to have to talk about DoD lawyers becoming immigration judges another time. We've talked about that in the past. Maybe we can get on a special guest to help us understand that a little better before we go to our last topic, which is the article you just published in the Bull Work about what it means to celebrate July 4th in uniform. Great article that I recommend everyone read. Before we talk about that, I need to Talk about our July 4th sale. If you are watching this, you are not yet a Bulbourk plus member. Now is the time to become one. Because, honestly, I think it's a patriotic thing to do. I mean, obviously there are a lot of patriotic things to do. But if you ever feel like the MAGA movement tries to own July 4th and patriotism in general, you're not alone. If you ever look at the American flag and you feel kind of mixed emotions, like you're sort of proud of it, but also there's sort of some negative associations, that means that, you know, part of the country has succeeded in at least somewhat taking over a symbol of all of the country. And that's what we're fighting back against at the Bulwark. We think the most patriotic thing you can do is work to make the country better. And that is what we do every single day. That's what the Bull Work is about. We're creating a community of people who are trying to be the kind of citizens this country needs and deserves. So with 14% off a Bulwark annual membership, you can 86 the insanity. Get it? 14. 86 out of 200. Okay. If you're thinking about becoming a member, this is the moment. Everything we offer for a full year for $86, 14% off. The place to get that deal is@the bulwark.com July 4 with the numeral 4. That's the bulwark.com July 4. And I'll put a link in our show notes. And while we're on the topic of July 4th, General, you had this great article about celebrating July 4th in uniform over your many decades of service to the country. So why don't we just. On our. As our final note, why don't you just talk us through what you learned and what you experienced celebrating July 4th all over the world while in the Army.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, you know, I start the article off, Ben, by talking about my first summer at the military academy at West Point and how I was in the midst of what they call beast barracks as a new cadet in July of 1971. And at the end of the fourth holiday, we went to Trophy Point, which overlooks the bend in the Hudson river where West Point got its name. And they played Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. And at the end, there were live cannons firing, and they were reverberating through the banks of the Hudson. And it struck me that even though this was the 1812 Overture, it. It reinforced what West Point was first put there to do. And that was part of the bastion of the Revolutionary War. It was the strongest post guarding the British from coming down from Canada. And it struck me that year, as a young 18 year old, that this was something different, that the 4th of July in my past had always been about fireworks and hot dogs and hamburgers and going to the. To the river in Missouri to swim, but now it was something different. And then in each assignment I had in the Army, I had the opportunity really to celebrate at different locations in the United States, but also overseas. During our 1976 200th anniversary, I was in Germany. And Germany had just gone through 31 years since World War II, and they were still rebuilding, still overcoming some of the things that occurred in World War II. And yet they were already seeing the citizens collaborate and combine and celebrate with Americans. So there were German and American fest. The Germans would come onto our post and eat for the first time our ice cream, as opposed to gelato, and understand what freedom was all about for us. And. And it was just really a dynamic of something that we were sharing with the world and representing what freedom and liberty and democracy was all about. My next experience was in Korea in 1999, when I was over there for an exercise, and it fell on July 4th. And what we saw is a combination of North Korea, excuse me, South Koreans and Americans celebrating together. And we were very close to the border with North Korea. And so there was that juxtaposition of a free and independent South Korea versus an autocratic dictator in North Korea. A few years later in Germany again, we celebrated at Grafenwehr, the training center, where I was the commander with German partners who all came on our post. They brought a keg of beer that they wanted me to tap. The mayor of the town, the Burger Master, gave me a red, white and blue shirt to wear, you know, as a gift on the 4th of July. And there was this collaboration again between Germans and Americans about freedom. And this was after the wall came down. There were a lot of former East Germans there at the post. Czechoslovakia was right across the border, was 20 km away, and it was now the Czech Republic, free and independent. So there was that vibe going on. And then the last one I recount was in 2007 and 8 when I celebrated the 4th of July in Iraq. We didn't have a whole lot of fireworks, but we did celebrate the day with some unique foods, hot dog, hamburgers. Al Qaeda provided the fireworks with some rockets pointed our way. But you know, it was just an example of how American soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines all around the world are dedicated to preserving our liberty. It goes back to the point that it is about our Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. It gets into each sentence of that magnificent document and then it goes forward a few years later when the Constitution was written and how we take a vow as military officers or as government officials to support and defend that piece of paper which represents the ideas of who we are as a nation. The liberty of individuals, the freedom of the people. And it's more than just the hot dog, hamburgers and fireworks, I guess. And that's what I've learned over four decades and travel around different posts and celebrating the fourth of July at different occasions. And it's more meaningful to me and I think to my family as well as we've moved around and see the way different people celebrate. So that's what that article is about. And we hope everyone enjoys the fourth of July holiday.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, I think it was a great reminder that first of all, sometimes the best way to appreciate freedom is to spend time with people who have experienced unfreedom, which is luckily not something that we've had a lot of in the United States recently. But you know, places like Iraq and North Korea and East Germany certainly did. And also he went into this wonderful note about how serving the country helps you appreciate the country. And even for people who aren't in uniform, I think that's a wonderful way to think about July 4th this year for the 250th anniversary and every year in that, you know, this is a thing we're all trying to do together in this country is to have a free, democratic, self governing country. And so if you can serve it, it will help you appreciate it. And with that, we wish everyone a happy July 4th. General, thank you so much for another great command post.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Thank you, Ben. It's good one lots of things to talk about. We'll continue this and we'll bring in some guests after the July 4th weekend.