Chuck Todd: The AP-Trump Feud Is A Hill to Die on

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Chuck Todd - The AP-Trump Feud Is A Hill to Die on

Introduction

In the February 19, 2025 episode of Bulwark Takes, host Sam Stein engages in a compelling discussion with former NBC News anchor Chuck Todd. The conversation centers around the escalating feud between the Associated Press (AP) and the Trump administration, delving into its implications for journalism, press freedom, and democratic norms.

The AP-Trump Feud: Redefining Language and Access

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted exchange about college sports, but swiftly transitions to the core issue: the Associated Press's refusal to adopt President Trump's directive to rename the "Gulf of Mexico" to the "Gulf of America." This defiance has led to the White House ostracizing AP journalists from key access points, including the White House press pool and Air Force One.

Chuck Todd articulates the gravity of the situation, stating, “This is about essentially trying to bring, you know, the language of journalism...dictates what the press can and can’t say” (03:32). He emphasizes that such attempts to control journalistic terminology threaten the foundational principles of free press.

Historical Context: Press Pools and Collective Action

Todd provides a historical backdrop, explaining the structure and significance of the White House press pool. Established in the 1980s to manage the influx of media representatives, the pool ensures that coverage remains organized and cost-effective. He recalls past instances where the press pool faced challenges, notably during the Obama administration's exclusion of Fox News over perceived biases.

“Every White House tries to create more restrictions of press access...a universal effort by White Houses to pressure essentially coverage on the pool,” Todd remarks (19:45). This historical lens underscores the persistent tension between administrations and the media, highlighting the recurring patterns of press suppression.

Current Challenges: The Erosion of Collective Resistance

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the apparent lack of unified resistance from the press corps against the current administration's tactics. Unlike the collective stand taken against Fox News in 2009, the media's response to the AP's exclusion appears fragmented and subdued.

Todd speculates on the reasons, suggesting, “There are major news organizations that don’t want to have, that don’t want to be in this. Everybody’s trying to avoid a fight with Trump” (23:54). This hesitancy is attributed to various factors, including corporate interests, fear of backlash, and the absence of a guiding figure akin to William Paley, former CBS chairman who advocated for journalistic integrity over business concerns.

Implications for Journalism and Democracy

The conversation delves deep into the broader implications of the AP-Trump feud. Todd warns of a "slippery slope," where administrative interference in journalistic language and access could set dangerous precedents for future administrations. He asserts, “This is sort of like, and I think we know they have more power collectively than they do individually, but they're afraid to find out” (24:40), highlighting the potential for institutional erosion of press freedoms.

Moreover, the episode touches upon the consequences of deplatforming prominent figures like Donald Trump. Todd contends that such actions have inadvertently empowered alternative media ecosystems that undermine democratic discourse, stating, “The decision to deplatform him is the single greatest mistake mainstream media did because it allowed Trump to create an alternative ecosystem” (27:26).

Press Pool Structure and Function

To contextualize the current events, Todd elaborates on the operational mechanics of the White House press pool. He explains that the pool is managed by the White House Press Association in collaboration with the Press Office, rotating access among major networks like ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and Fox. This system ensures balanced coverage but becomes a tool for administration-led media control when journals like AP are excluded.

Future Outlook: The Path Forward for Journalism

As the discussion nears its conclusion, Todd emphasizes the importance of collective action within the press corps to safeguard journalistic integrity. He laments the current fragmentation, noting, “They don't care about this relationship with the press” (25:55), and urges media organizations to prioritize the institution of journalism over individual or corporate interests.

Sam Stein adds to the dialogue by proposing potential remedies, such as the press corps collectively refusing to cover the administration unless journalistic standards are upheld. However, Todd remains skeptical, highlighting the challenges of orchestrating such unified resistance in the face of entrenched corporate pressures and fear of reprisal.

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a poignant reflection on the state of American democracy and the indispensable role of a free press. Chuck Todd underscores the necessity for journalists to remain steadfast in their pursuit of truth, even when confronted with unprecedented administrative challenges. He concludes, “You owe to your readers...you have a job to do” (27:26), encapsulating the enduring duty of the press to uphold democratic values through unbiased and unfettered reporting.

Notable Quotes

• Chuck Todd (03:32): “This is about essentially trying to bring, you know, the language of journalism...dictates what the press can and can’t say.”

• Chuck Todd (19:45): “Every White House tries to create more restrictions of press access...a universal effort by White Houses to pressure essentially coverage on the pool.”

• Chuck Todd (23:54): “There are major news organizations that don’t want to have, that don’t want to be in this. Everybody’s trying to avoid a fight with Trump.”

• Chuck Todd (24:40): “This is sort of like, and I think we know they have more power collectively than they do individually, but they're afraid to find out.”

• Chuck Todd (27:26): “The decision to deplatform him is the single greatest mistake mainstream media did because it allowed Trump to create an alternative ecosystem.”

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Timecode References:

• Timestamps in square brackets (e.g., 03:32) correspond to the minute and second marks within the transcript, facilitating easy navigation to specific discussion points.

Transcript

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[Sam Stein]

Hey guys. Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark, back again here with Chuck Todd, who thankfully put on his University of Miami pullover. Got to represent.

[Chuck Todd]

There it is. You know, look, it's, that's who's getting the lion's share of my, my tuition dollars right now. But starting next year, I'm an all ACC family. Starting next year, the SMU Mustangs will be competing with the University of Miami for my tuition dollars.

[Sam Stein]

What division are they in now? I can't keep track of?

[Chuck Todd]

They're in the ACC as well, basically. You know, they're the ones that said we don't need any money. We're Texas, baby. We're Dallas. Well, you don't worry about paying us. You just let, let us in your club and we'll be just fine.

[Sam Stein]

Nice. Okay, well, we're not going to be talking. Maybe down the road we'll talk about college sports because I think that's worthwhile too. But today we're going to be talking about the Associated Press. Yeah. And this situation that we find ourselves in where the premier wire service in the country is being cast out by the White House and how we move about this as fellow journalists. All right, Chuck, let's start broad picture. What's your, what's your sense of what's happening here?

[Chuck Todd]

Well, I feel like this is the Trump White House and Donald Trump testing the electric fence. Right. I've always thought the best metaphor to Donald Trump is, is that first Jurassic park where they all go, oh my God, they don't ever test the fence in the same place. Right. Like, you know, the dinosaurs have a brain. The velociraptors know what they're doing.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

So this is, no doubt, this is testing the fence. Right. And this is what makes. I think it's been a. I think it's an interesting challenge, if you will, that the press corps is having at this moment of collective weakness. Let's not pretend it's not right. This is a moment of collective weakness. Right now is sort of at least the press corps ability to perhaps persuade the public of its, of its righteousness, if you will. Right. And, you know, I had this conversation with Chris Soliza a few days ago where we were debating, is this a mountain? Is this a mohel? Right. And you can sit here and say, oh, geez, what you, you know, I spent a lot of time in Pensacola, which is a Gulf, which is on the Gulf Coast. You know what? Nobody in Pensacola calls the Gulf anything after. They don't say anything after the word golf.

[Sam Stein]

The Gulf.

[Chuck Todd]

Hey, it's the Gulf. Nobody. I have lived in this. I have lived in and out of Florida my, you know, my whole life. Never does anybody say Gulf of Mexico side, Atlantic oceanside.

[Sam Stein]

It is, I guess we should pause for a second because for the uninitiated, the, the, the issue here is that the Associated Press has decided that it is going to continue to refer to the Gulf as the Gulf of Mexico, despite a Trump executive order rebranding it as the Gulf of America. Since then, Trump and the White House have said, you can't come into the pool, which is essentially a group of journalists that cover, that are tasked with covering the president as he moves around day in, day out. And then they've escalated. So you can't come on Air Force One, they can't come into the Oval Office. And that's where we see them. So, yes, back to Pensacola, they call it the Gulf.

[Chuck Todd]

So the point is, I don't know anybody in America that refers to the Gulf outside of just one word, the Gulf. So we could, I understand if the average person who isn't sort of, you know, longtime journalists are sitting there going, is this, is this the, Is this a hill worth dying up? Right, right. And, you know, I've vacillated on this and I've come down on the side of it is because the next hill is going to be bigger, right? It is, it is. This is not going to be a one off the one time test. This is the first of many. And this is about essentially, you know, trying to bring, you know, the, essentially the language of journalism, you know, when, when NBC standards makes decisions, they look to the AP style guide first. They don't always follow AP style guide. You know, I have a, you know, I have my own issues with AP style guides at times. When it comes to, for instance, how you refer to abortion rights supporters and anti abortion rights supporters, you know, I, I have always, I came from the hotline and we decided we should refer to each side by their preferred moniker. So we would go with pro choice and pro life. I was so programmed to do it that I often said that on the air. I'd get lectured by standards at NBC and I'd continue to say it on the air because I understood, you know, you know, there were some on the, on the pro life side, anti abortion rights side who would, who would argue, you know, the description is automatically negative. You're portraying us in a negative light. Right. It's when you're, when the word anti is.

[Sam Stein]

But the issue here is it's correct, not they're taking the choice away from the outline and giving.

[Chuck Todd]

No, there's no doubt. And that's, but my point is, is that ap, it is more than just, you know, the leading wire service arguably in the world, you know, Reuters might have a, you know, Reuters is the other sort of, they're, they claim to.

[Sam Stein]

The international one, but. Yeah, go ahead.

[Chuck Todd]

No doubt. But those are the two. Yeah. And so this is about Trump wanting to control language police too, a little bit, or certainly the, you know, the Trump communications shop on that front. So this is a test of wills. I've been, I've been disappointed in the inability of the rest of the White House press corps to sort of stand up to this moment. I understand that everybody has a boss. It's my understanding that there are lots of journalists in that room that would like to be taking more of a stand than their bosses want them to, which I think is, is, you know, this is a reminder, you know, we've already seen all the capitulations of the various quotes, corporate entities that, that own news organizations that we've been watching. And it's extending to this sort of lack of a showdown. And here's the irony. You know, covering the president is very expensive being in the pool. You know, the government doesn't pay for the press corps to be in the pool. The Associated Press pays for that. And if you take that away, good luck finding other news organizations that are going to be willing to spend that kind of money, even their preferred news or, you know, unless, I guess, you know, maybe some wealthy person will just Sort of underwrite the Daily Caller or whatever. Right. That. To do whatever, whatever manufactured replacement or the Daily Wire or whatever it is.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Chuck Todd]

But it's extraordinarily expensive. And I'll tell you what Donald Trump would miss if there was no longer a press pool that was traveling with him.

[Sam Stein]

Coverage he gets every day.

[Chuck Todd]

He likes all the coverage. And I, and I don't know why the rest of the press corps is. I mean, before we get it, before.

[Sam Stein]

We get into reaction and remedies, let's just talk a little bit about, let's play with this hypothetical to sort of distinguish between wither to mountain. My own. Let's say the Associated Press tomorrow said, you know what we will call it the Gulf of America. We want. We, it's not worth it. Let's just do it. I, I'm just playing devil's advocate with you because I actually agree with you. They shouldn't do it. I actually think this is actually a very big deal. But let's say they do do it. What's the next. You say it's a slippery slope. What's the next.

[Chuck Todd]

Well, I, by the way, there was another way they could have done this, and I'm curious to see if the White House would have reacted the same way, which is saying, look, our formal recognition, you know, the formal, the global recognition of this body of water is Gulf of Mexico.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Chuck Todd]

And you know, we will, in American coverage, we will note it is also referred to as, you know, and some.

[Sam Stein]

People have done that. Right. Like I think Google has done that where if you Google it in America, it's Gulf of America. But if you're outside, it's Gulf of Mexico still.

[Chuck Todd]

And I wonder if they had done that first. Right, right. What the reaction, what, what the White House would have done. Do they do anything right? I don't know. It's obviously that's that. So I, you, you threw a hypothetical out there. I wanted to throw that back. Which is.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

You know, what if they had just come up with some sort of middle ground, if there, you know, if there was one. And, and by the way, there are plenty of things that are called one thing and by one country and called something else by another country. I mean, we, by the way, there are country names that change. Myanmar, Burma. Some countries want to still refer to it as Burma. You know, it'll always be Burma to me, if you watch a lot of Seinfeld. But to play your hypothetical there, you know, I think it's a, it's a, it's a slippery Slope, because it, it sort of dictates what the press can and can't say. Right. It is sort of the, the entire premise of the First Amendment. And, you know, I don't, you know, while the President doesn't have to take questions from AP ever again. Right. I don't know if it, you know, I don't know if in a democracy, it has the authority of just barring them from doing something that isn't their decision of who's in the protective pool. That's a White House Press association decision.

[Sam Stein]

Now, I should note that the, the Associated Press has actually. So Trump issued another executive order where he took the name of Mount Denali in Alaska and changed it to Mount McKinley. The Associate Press did accommodate that. They refer to it now because it is in their rationale was this is within the American boundaries. It's not an international body. And therefore we believe that it's within the.

[Chuck Todd]

By the way, it's no different than an airport name. Right? I remember a long time, Reagan. Look, I lived here before Reagan, and there were a whole bunch of air traffic controllers in particular, who hated Reagan because he was infamously fired a bunch of them early on in his. In his tenure, who refused to call it Reagan. Right. For like, the longest time. And then there would be this fights about whether to call it Reagan. At the end of the day, hey, that's the name, the official name of the airport. Right. Like, this is now he has the ability to officially rename that mountain. So the body of Water, though, is not something that we've ever really dealt with, like, right before. I mean, it's uncharted. It really is. And it's so typical of Trump, Right, to take something ridiculous like this, Right. And try to turn it into this cultural. Turn it into culture war. Right? Yeah. And that's what it is, which is why it's sort of like, you know, do you fight on his terms? Well, on this case, if it's a basic principle, yes, you do.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, so unpack a little bit because you, you talked about it, but unpack how the pool works. I don't think people really recognize it and how it operates and what kind of structure it has, who controls it, and all the access points in the White House.

[Chuck Todd]

Well, look, there's been this protective pool. It was created sometime in the 80s because there was a time, for instance, and it was basically like anything. This was about cutting costs and it was about, you know, the lack of space. Right. You had sort of two competing issues as you had more news organizations wanting to be in every major event at the White House. You know, Andrea Mitchell can tell you stories of, of when there were competing. Literally you'd have three cameras in every. Can you imagine three camera crews in every pool spray? Well, that's what's called a pool spray now, but because it's only pool. But before there was a pool, three cameras would be in there. Three radio networks. You might have had six newspaper reporters. It started to get a bit absurd. Then it became a safety issue. And there was also. There were certainly financial. Right. That was a big driver for the media side of things. When the first the three major networks, then it expanded to cnn, then it expanded to Fox where so now every five days there's a. The five TV networks and in this case it's abc, NBC, cbs, CNN and Fox rotate who's in the TV seat. There used to be a radio seat. I assume there is no radio seat anymore. I'm, I haven't been a White house correspondent in 10 years. But I don't know if there's, you know, I haven't been there in a while.

[Sam Stein]

I'll, I'll double check that one.

[Chuck Todd]

When I, when I, When I, when I left, I think it was a constant rotation really between NPR and Bloomberg Radio.

[Sam Stein]

I want to say news here. ABC News Radio had.

[Chuck Todd]

ABC News Radio had it for a while. I don't know if that exists anymore. Yeah, right. In its current form. So. But there would be a rotation and a radio seat. There was a print rotation. You were a member of that when you were at HuffPo back in the day. And that was more of a. You had. And there were two different print pool rotations. Traveling print.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

For the news organizations that were willing to pay the high cost of being.

[Sam Stein]

And it's.

[Chuck Todd]

High cost.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, it's very expensive.

[Chuck Todd]

Very expensive versus the in town pool, which you didn't really have to pay for, if I'm not mistaken.

[Sam Stein]

You did not. You went around the President might go to some event locally and you were, you know, you were in that pool. But mostly you were hanging around the White House covering pooled events at the White House.

[Chuck Todd]

And to be in the pool, if you're not on White House grounds means you're in the motorcade. For what it's worth, there is a. You've got Secret Service protection. You're in the motorcade. You're just ahead of the ambulance, I believe. Right. If you're keeping track of it. And you know, so on Air Force One, there is a wire there. I believe there were two Wire seats.

[Sam Stein]

I think that's right.

[Chuck Todd]

Back in the day, maybe there's down to one. But it used to be two wire seats, and they were always just AP always had one. And I think Bloomberg would pay to have the other one. The rotation of the TV side, rotation of radio, rotation of print. And then you might have one other guest, Right. You know, somebody that might be traveling with the pool at the president press office discretion or something like that. But it is a rotation. It is run by the White House Press association in consultation with the Press Office. Right, Right. When they put out pool reports, it's the White House Press Office that puts out the print pool report. And it is. Which is, I've always thought is weird because we in the TV pool directly fed our information to our colleagues in the TV pool, while you in print, sent yours to the White House Press Office for potential edits.

[Sam Stein]

Well, this actually happened once where they held a pool report of mine because they didn't like some inclusion. I had and I flipped. I was like, you're not.

[Chuck Todd]

You can't. It's not your decision.

[Sam Stein]

It's not your decision. That's my copy. So access long short of it is that access is important. You get. You're there to document every single, ideally not every single, but most movements of the president. And the AP has been constant presence there. And Trump has decided that's no longer going to be the case. Let's play the footage of Trump most recently explaining or talking about the AP and why he is that doing this.

[Donald Trump]

The Associated Press just refuses to go with what the law is and what is taking place. It's called the Gulf of America now. It's not called the Gulf of Mexico any longer. I have the right to do it, just like we have the right to do Mount McKinley, and nobody's even challenging that. But only the Associated. Essentially, it's primarily the Associated Press. And I don't know what they're doing, but I just say that we're going to keep them out until such time as they agree that it's the Gulf of America. We're very proud of this country, and we want it to be the Gulf of America.

[Sam Stein]

Now we get to the point where, okay, they've clearly made this stand. He's cutting them out from the pool and he's cutting off from the Oval. And now we get to what you were talking about, which is what is recourse here. And I'm reminded of something actually quite similar that happened when you and I are both at the White House in 2009. The backstory is the Obama White House was furious with Fox News. If I remember correctly, it was mostly with Glenn Beck.

[Chuck Todd]

For at the time it was a.

[Sam Stein]

Glenn Beck, his conspiratorial chalkboard musings. And they, and they refused to let Fox News in the pool again. And they were. A specific event was. I think it had to do with.

[Chuck Todd]

It's a Treasury event.

[Sam Stein]

A Treasury event about. Yeah.

[Chuck Todd]

Round robin. It was a. Probably a round robin interview.

[Sam Stein]

It was about that. It was about the auto bailout because it involved Feinberg. And they just said, you're not Fox, not going to cover it. And what happened next was, you guys, the tv.

[Chuck Todd]

The TV network said no, right? We said no. Look, it is an equal. You know, there's a chair of the pool every, I believe it changes quarterly, not monthly. But you may, you may. Somebody may fact check me on that. Maybe it's monthly now, but it would be quarterly and you know, it would basically be a rotation of the D.C. bureau chiefs and they dealt. It would. So that there would be a single point of contact between the White House communication shop, the White House press secretary and a executive that sort of oversaw the pool for that quarter, whatever it was. I cannot remember whether who was chairing at that moment. But it doesn't matter. All five. It's very expensive to do the TV pool because you're paying for three people all the time, right? The journalist, the audio and the, and the, and the, and the shooter, the. For the photographer, camera guy. And so it's very expensive and it's shared cost. Okay. Everybody pays the same amount of money. So we viewed it frankly as just a violation of our, of our contract essentially with each other. Right. Of our cooperative, however you wanted to describe it. You know, it is, you know, we, we've agreed to do this and you can't, you know, if you're going to leave them out, then we're all out. You know, you, you can give it an exclusive. And then they, you know, look, White Houses have played games. Hey, this is a broadcast only versus cable. You know, you would have that, you know, with, with quote, round robins and what would be pooled and what wouldn't be pooled? You know, we have things like that. But so the rest of the network stood up because, you know, it was one of those moments where, hey, you know, this time it, it's something that's harming Fox. Next time it could. And that was exactly the rationale. It was just sort of like this is a slippery slope and I've always argued this has been a bipartisan effort by White Houses to pressure, essentially coverage on the pool. Pressure all the time. Right. There was, there's always been more. Every White House tries to create more restrictions of press access.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

Than the previous White House. And it hasn't mattered whether it was a Democratic White House replacing a Republican White House or vice versa. This has been a universal, where every communication shop comes in thinking, we're going to tame this press corps and we're going to push back. You're not going to have this much access. We're going to cut off access here or cut off access there. And we always fought it, and I always fought access pressure from the Obama White House because I viewed it as slippery slope. The minute you let one White House do something, the next one would use it as precedent to prevent it from happening in the next one.

[Sam Stein]

Did you guys know, refresh my memory. Did you guys say, we will not cover the next? We didn't say we.

[Chuck Todd]

I can't remember what our threat was, but we're just like, you're just, the pool goes away. Like, we're, we're not going to participate in this event. If you, if, as a, you know, if you.

[Sam Stein]

Now, they, it's funny, I was looking back, they capitulated. Yeah, they capitulated, but not, not at first. And it was kind of interesting because I, I went back, I looked at it, and it's, the reasoning was almost remarkably similar and to what Trump is doing now, which was, oh, it's not a real news organization. Like, we can't abide by commentary. We, you know, we have to have standards here for what actually is news. And we don't need to, we, we don't need to be dictated to essentially what those standards are. Now, they did capitulate, and I will, and I'm not trying to make a false equivalency because I do think Fox News is fundamentals.

[Chuck Todd]

Well, I would also argue that the irony is that, and I, and this is just deep irony, is that Fox News, when it was run by Roger Ailes, allowed journalists to be journalists at Fox, the current version of Fox News. I think Jennifer Griffin tries to practice journalism. I think, you know, I think Chad Pergram, I think there's still journalists that were, I always say Fox is not a journalistic organization. There are journalists that, there are people that practice journalism that happened to work at Fox. Right. But that is not a journalistic enterprise at all. Ironically, Roger Ailes knew he couldn't have credibility at night if he didn't have real journalism. I mean, you know, Brit Hume at the end of the day is a journalist first and he always had and he fought really hard. And you, by the way, you see glimmers of it, right? Which is why they limit. I feel like Brit Hume's airtime keeps shrinking all the time over there because he's, he's, he's, he will stubbornly speak truth to power at inconvenient times for the Fox audience. But the point was Roger knew he had to have credible journalists in the daytime in order for the folks at night to get credibility. This is not how Fox is run now. It is just run as a amplification message machine. It is not. There are, like I said, there are still a few legacy people over there that practice journalism as best they can under the circumstances with which they have to work. Right. But it is a totally different animal today than it was. Put it this way, I thought the way that Obama White House spoke about Fox journalists, that is not my experience with Wendell Goler. That was not my experience with Major Garrett. That was not my experience.

[Sam Stein]

Was, was Major the White House correspondent at the time or was it.

[Chuck Todd]

I can't, I just, I want to say it was major. I think it was, but major.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, total.

[Chuck Todd]

Wendell Goler, Mike Emanuel, these are pros. These are all pros. Mike Emmanuel still a pro. And I, and I, and I, like, I hesitate to sit here and trash the organization because a guy like Mike Emanuel's, you know, working his tail off, you know, and he, but, but that's just, look, that's what it is now. Right?

[Sam Stein]

And I think, and I think the fact that they had that those people on staff made it a lot harder for the Obama people to say we're corre. Pushing you out now. Okay, so, okay, so you guys, eventually, in a matter of days, they capitulate. Fox gets back in the pool 2000. Flash forward to now. We're not seeing anything like that. We, we've seen no one in the press pool, as far as I know, say, hey, if they're not allowed in, we're, we're not going to cover you guys. Like, that's absurd. Why are we not getting the same collective action?

[Chuck Todd]

I think there's a few reasons. One is you have individual journalists that would like to do things, but their bosses have cautioned them not to. There are major news organizations that don't want to have, that don't want to be in this. Everybody's trying to avoid a fight with Trump. Right. It's sort of, it's it's, you know, this is not the hill to die on mindset. Right. And you see it all over the place. And I think this is what's happening more than anything else. And then the other concern, and I've had this conversation with a few what I would call leaders in that space is, you know, if you leave, will anybody follow?

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

Like a fear, collective action.

[Sam Stein]

Right. That is the issue. Right.

[Chuck Todd]

It is sort of like, and I think we know they have more power collectively than they do individually, but they're afraid to find out. You know, what if, you know, what if everybody is so scared that you just don't, you don't have the collective action. Right. And that's what Trump's trying to prove. Right. He's trying to divide and conquer on this front. Certainly, you know, this is, this Trump communication shop, Trump 1.0 still wanted to have, you know, Kellyanne Conway sort of more managing communications. She, she, she needed reasonable relationships with mainstream media. This version, I mean, this guy Chung, you know, who's just Stephen Chung, I mean, he's Baghdad Bob, right? And sometimes, and how he responds to everything, you're like, literally, you'll be like, you know, the Associated Press declared today that the sun set in the west, and it's like, how dare they say that the sun set in the Trump, you know, is what Chief and Chung would probably say. Right. Like, it is such a, it's comical. Like, I find his quotes comical. They're sort of, they're, they're, they're fun to read at times, but they're not remotely close to the truth and accuracy. And so they, they don't care about this relationship with the press.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

In fact, the goal is they need.

[Sam Stein]

The press as a boogeyman. They need the press and bag.

[Chuck Todd]

This is the, the most fascinating rationale I've heard from a few journalists that say, this isn't the fight to have is this. They want to fight, don't give them a fight. Right, Right. Rope a dope. Right. Let them punch themselves out. Rope a dope. Don't.

[Sam Stein]

Do not buy that.

[Chuck Todd]

On some things, I do. Right. I agree that they want the fight, but I worry about precedent. Right. The next White House. What does the next White House do? And again, all I have is the professional history of my time being at the White House, observing it before I got there and watching it after. Precedents matter a great deal. They're used all the time to justify the next action.

[Sam Stein]

Let me pepper you. Let me pepper.

[Chuck Todd]

This is why that White House press Corps, they are harming the. The press corps for President Vance and President Wesmore and President, you know, Baron Trump, etc.

[Sam Stein]

Assuming. Assuming we have future presidents. Yes.

[Chuck Todd]

Or emperors or whatever we call them. Right. What happened when the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire? Right. We. We changed the title.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, he changed the title. All right, A few. Let me pep you with a few here. One is a lot. There's this whole idea of, well, one thing they could do, press corps could do is just stop covering Trump. Don't send anyone there. And I don't know. I honestly don't know. I can see both sides.

[Chuck Todd]

You got to cut. Look, you owe to your readers. Yeah. To your readers. You have to cover what's happening. You know, you have a job to do. You know, this whole. Look, I think one of the biggest mistakes that were made, and I was on the minority in this fight post January 6th. The decision to deplatform Trump is the single greatest mistake mainstream media did because it allowed Trump to create an alternative ecosystem that is now dangerous to the world. This alternative ecosystem is now essentially going to kill people in Ukraine.

[Sam Stein]

Well, and so truck it'll. It let people forget what Trump was on January 6th.

[Chuck Todd]

100% right. This alternate, the decision to deplatform him, he started his own thing. I mean, just literally, there is no good that came from this. And I never understood the rationale. No, we will not put anybody that didn't certify the election on mainstream media ever again. And I'm sitting here going, hey, guys, the voters platform. These people. This isn't about whether. Look, you can have a debate about whether Jeff Zucker should have given Donald Trump at a TV show in the Apprentice. You want to have that debate? Go ahead and have that debate. But you know who decided that Donald Trump should be president? United States. The voters. Right. And. And the Republican voters decided they should be the nominee. And you can have an argument about, okay, he was. He. He didn't win the popular vote in 16, but he won the Electoral College. He was the President of the United States. The voters platform him, pure and simple. So deplatforming him was a huge mistake. And I think it's led to all of this current situation. I really.

[Sam Stein]

So when I look at.

[Chuck Todd]

If I could correct one thing, it would have been that.

[Sam Stein]

So you're not. Yeah, I'm with you. I don't buy the idea, like, okay, the, the proper reaction to what he's doing to the AP is just don't give him any coverage whatsoever. You can't do that. You just can't.

[Chuck Todd]

No, but let me, let me, I, I'll say this. You know, this is also a question about access journalism, right? And I always say this. There's, there's all types of journalism and we need all types of it. You can't just, if you're only an access journalist, you're, you're a stenographer. But guess what? You need a stenographer, okay. With the President of the United States. Right. You need to find out what is happening when it comes to.

[Sam Stein]

What did he say, the transcript?

[Chuck Todd]

Yeah, correct. When it comes to a question, the questions we as journalists are having to answer, right? The who, what, where, when, you know, you need to know the what, right? What happened? And that's just a basic thing. But here's something that I do think is unique with Trump, which is getting, getting information from the Trump administration is not necessarily helpful to your viewers or readers. Right. Because it's normally, it's usually not the truth. There are glimmers of truth, there are crumbs of truth there, but it isn't the full truth. You're never getting the full story from the Trump White House. Right. We know this. It takes sort of three or four different versions. You put them all together and. Right. You know, it is, but it is one of those things that you realize that. So I actually don't think, you know, I think if you want to mislead yourself as a journalist, only cover Trump through the White House press briefing. Right. Like that's like, you know.

[Sam Stein]

Well, that's what I tell people. I mean, everyone who talks to me about covering the White House, what I say to them is that it's both the most prestigious and important job in the world and the most miserable job because you are literally on one side of a wall and they're on the other side of the wall and they present to you a reality that they want to present. And your job is to find out what actually is happening on the other side of the wall.

[Chuck Todd]

Well, the only, I don't know about you, but every story I broke at the White House, my sources were on the hill. Yeah, well, that's 90% of the time. Like, if you want to come to the White House, you do it from Capitol Hill.

[Sam Stein]

And that's why when I was running White House coverage at Politico, I was insistent that we have a Hill based White House White House correspondent, because that was just the best way to get. All right, last question then is the other thing. And, and I think I know where it's sort of what we've talked about. But the Trump people are like, well look, we're not. The AP can come to the briefings, they can come to the White House proper. We're not restricting access. What we're telling them is they can't have the privilege of going, going into the oval of riding on Air Force One. Great.

[Chuck Todd]

Pull the photographers. You know, I'll tell you this. If, if the White House photogs said they would not cover any pool events until AP's was restored, that might have impact because guess who really wants pictures of himself. Donald Trump. You know, and is it. And many news organizations, you know, we used to have a rule and unfortunately this was one that we let the Obama White House change the rules on this. And I always regretted it and I fought it internally, which was to accept White House photographs, White House. Right. Taken photographs.

[Sam Stein]

As the White House photographer takes the photograph and then presents of a news.

[Chuck Todd]

Event and then presents it. And we didn't have a independent journalistic, you know, photographer there. You know, it again, slippery slopes. You know, I think what's the most famous example? The re. The re Oath. Right. Where they didn't let.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, with. Yeah, Justice Roberts.

[Chuck Todd]

Yeah, Justice Roberts. Because he blew the oath.

[Sam Stein]

Quaint problems, but yes, I remember that one.

[Chuck Todd]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

All right. So in the end, this is a collective action issue and ultimately journalists, and I've lived it like you are constantly figuring out do I work to advance my publications interests or do I work to advance the interests of the institution of journalism.

[Chuck Todd]

And a lot of it just depends on what kind of support you have from your bosses.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Chuck Todd]

And you know, do you have a journal, is your boss a journalist or is your boss a news executive? And there's a difference these days. And you know, the news executives that were former journalists usually are, are a little tougher, tougher minded on this and are ready to take the heat. But as we see, I mean, you know, look at the Washington Post decision to first take an advertisement and then say no to an advertisement. This is having to do somebody. And this again, it's actually for. It's sort of a symbolic thing because who the hell gets the hard copy delivered newspaper anymore? But the Washington Post was apparently selling a, a wraparound advertisement that was going to be pretty anti. Elon Musk, I take it. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Critical. Do you.

[Chuck Todd]

It was going to be critical which is very much federal workers. Right. If anybody's going to read a hard copy of the Washington Post, it's going to be federal workers here in the, in The DMV and Donald Trump. Right. Who still reads a hard copy of the newspaper? Donald J. Trump, the New York Post.

[Sam Stein]

Not the Washington Post.

[Chuck Todd]

But true, but at least it's on his desk. Right. To get his Sharpie.

[Sam Stein]

Assuming they haven't canceled all the subscriptions through Doge.

[Chuck Todd]

Right. So, you know, I'm sure somebody looking out for the Jeff Bezos politics at the Post said, oh, this isn't worth the headache that it's going to give. And again, I understand the rationale of Bob Iger to settle the rationale of Sherry Redstone to settle the rationale of these. Of, of Jeff Bezos because he's got other entranced or Jeff Bezos to, to sort of, I don't know what you call the, the talent fee for Melania Trump, but that is $40 million. That's pretty impressive. Yeah. Probably the greatest modeling contract she ever got. I mean, wow. Right. But again, you know, I get the rationale that they're all thinking, right? They're just thinking about their business interests. And this is, here's the slippery slope, Sam, I think is, this is, you know, when people say, what, what kind of what, what's happening to the American democracy? And I'm like, step one, it, when you start to see a democracy erode, the first thing that happens is it becomes a kleptocracy, becomes a pay for play. And I think all of these press decisions that we're watching are a form of pay for play. Right?

[Sam Stein]

So you think, you think that, you believe that the Post, maybe cbs, people who have people higher up who have financial incentives to play nice are not going to be incentivized, conversely, to say, hey, we're going to take a moral stand with the Associated Press because they know it will piss off the Trump folks.

[Chuck Todd]

And it's not, they don't. And it's, it's not worth the price for them. Right. I joke when you think about the history of NBC, but then at what.

[Sam Stein]

Point does it become worth the price? Or is the price just too much to pay?

[Chuck Todd]

Yeah, I don't know. You know, it's too bad. There's a great shareholder letter that a friend of mine got a hold of that William Paley one time sent to shareholders at CBS basically saying, hey, I hate Edward R. Murrow too. I don't like him too. They hated him. Okay, this isn't new, by the way. Shareholders and wealthy people not liking some journalists on the airwaves. Okay? Edward R. Murrow, big business, hated him. All this stuff. And Paley Basically said, you know, look, he only helps your bottom line in the long run because the more credibility our news has, the more credit Paley, to Paley's credit, he was making the case for having essentially an opposite, you know, somebody against their business interests or potentially against their business interests, channeling some part of the American public's anger or however you wanted to describe it. And there aren't any William Paley's right now running any major media corporations. They're just one.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. And then the other thing though is, and it's obvious why this is happening, but Fox was the beneficiary of collective action back in 2009 as we discussed.

[Chuck Todd]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

And obviously it's a different entity now. I'm not going to say I'm disappointed that they're not standing up for the AP because I never expect them to stand up for the ap. But I'm wondering if you're disappointed having stood up for Fox yourself.

[Chuck Todd]

I, I, I've given up on there's, look, I don't want to, I don't want to name call, but I've given up, I've, I've give, handed my credibility to a handful of journalists over there who've never reciprocated when times were tough, when times were tough for them, I went out of my way to defend a couple of them. Right. When times were tough, you know, an unfair criticism or character assassination that was taking place. And you know, these people don't stand, you know, they're just, you know, there's, there's an, certainly we've seen the evolution of, of, of one of their larger news personalities go from trying really hard to follow in Brit Hume's footsteps and suddenly looks more like Sean Hannity every day. Right. And it's a shame, you know, because I thought, because he really cared about those, that reputation and I think really actually cared about being a journalist first and wanting to sort of walk that line, understood what his audience was and instead now just wants to have tea time with the President. I hope he enjoys it.

[Sam Stein]

Chuck, thank you so much. So, thank you so much, man.

[Chuck Todd]

Appreciate it.

[Sam Stein]

We're going to get you back to talk college football when the season comes. Maybe.

[Chuck Todd]

I'd love that, man.

[Sam Stein]

Chuck, Todd, thank you so much, man. Appreciate it. We'll have you back. Take care.

[Chuck Todd]

Thank you, brother.