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- [00:00]
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- [00:15]
Sam Stein
All right. Hey guys, it's me again. Sam Stein, managing out at the Bulwark, back from July 4, where, you know, did my patriotic thing. I'm joined by Will Sommer, author of False Flags. And look, every four years, like Olympic athletes, they train for the Olympics and it's their moment. We sort of wait for it, we anticipate it and it's broadcast and they give it their all. And it just so happens that today is Will Summer's Olympics. We finally have some closure, although, who knows with the Epstein files. And if anyone is going to talk about what this means, going to be Will, because he's been following this thing for. How long? How long have you been following? Sorry.
- [00:58]
Will Sommer
Oh, I mean, gosh, since Jeffrey Epstein was rearrested back in what, 2019 or something. And so, you know, now we're looking at the conclusion for now, the end of the beginning.
- [01:10]
Sam Stein
All right, set us up. What happened last night that's prompting us to jump on YouTube and talk about this?
- [01:15]
Will Sommer
Right. So the Justice Department put out a memo on a Sunday night of a three day weekend. A classic moment when so many eyeballs will be on something.
- [01:24]
Sam Stein
I don't know, man. I would have done it if I really wanted to bury it. I would have done it on like Saturday or Friday night. Yes, right. As the fireworks were going on. But go on.
- [01:33]
Will Sommer
So the memo said, you know, essentially that this, this long awaited revelation of the Jeffrey Epstein client list. Any other documents? The Epstein files, you know, maybe future charges against his clients. That's not going to happen. And they said also Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. Here's a video of his cell door. You can see no one else came in. So basically they're saying the Epstein case is closed. No other information, no other charges are going to be coming out.
- [01:56]
Sam Stein
They were kind of saying that already though, right? They had.
- [01:59]
Will Sommer
I mean, you can see that there was sort of this like walk up to it. Dan Bongino and Cash Patel, the heads of the FBI, did an interview where they said, you know, he killed himself, it's over, whatever. And so, but I think this, this is an official DOJ FBI memo. There's sort of a finality to it.
- [02:17]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I suppose, but it's. I don't know, this thing always rears its ugly head and there's Conspiracy theorists waiting in the wings. And I have to imagine that it's not going to be just widely accepted. Oh Bongino, it's done, therefore it's done.
- [02:30]
Will Sommer
Well, yeah, I mean there was so much anticipation around this. I mean this was, this is like basically half of what QAnon is all about, you know, for one thing, I mean, but even outside of that, I mean there was this belief in the MAGA movement that there was this Epstein client list and it was going to have not just you know, like Prince Andrew, but it was going to have.
- [02:49]
Sam Stein
All these high ranking, just Prince Andrew.
- [02:52]
Will Sommer
Right, I know, I know at this point it was going to have all these high ranking people and, or people in Hollywood, you know, Oprah, whatever, all these people. I mean we've seen all the fake Epstein flight list that'll come out and it'll say, you know, like Drake or whatever, you know, who knows? And they were so excited and then now it's nothing. Yeah. And you know, in reality there probably was no Jeffrey Epstein client list. All the Epstein experts were saying that, but they Republicans had really pinned their hopes on some big revelation.
- [03:19]
Sam Stein
I don't always struck me as so stupid that he would create, I mean maybe, I don't know, I don't want to get too into it, but like here is the theory that this guy is orchestrating this incredible cabal of like, you know, sex slavery invol involving the highest ranking officials across the globe and oh, I'm going to write down their names in a book. It just never made real sense to me that he would go to great lengths to hide it all and then just make the stupid decision of putting down a paper.
- [03:45]
Will Sommer
Well, the other thing I would add here is that there's also the second half of this is the belief that Jeffrey Epstein was running some kind of blackmail operation and probably for the Israeli intelligence agency, the Mossad. And so the DOJ memo also said he also wasn't blackmailing anybody. And so that kind of, you know, there's this rising tide of anti Semitism, anti Israel sentiment on the right and so that, that sort of deflates their bubble. And so that's sort of the second part.
- [04:10]
Sam Stein
Sorry folks. Okay, well look, it's not so easy for the White House obviously to just put this genie back in the bottle. First of all, how instrumental were Bongino and Patel prior to joining the administration at pushing this stuff?
- [04:24]
Will Sommer
Well, at least in Bongino's case, I mean he was a very popular podcaster, talk radio host and he was talking all the time about all the secrets that would be revealed by the Epstein files. Just before we got on here, I looked up, said he was like Bill Clinton. The Clinton family is knee deep in all this, you know, huge revelations to come out. And now he's saying, you know, he's like the, the Mythbusters. He's saying, you know, why do you guys care about all this? You know, and the, the real one here who I think is going to have trouble getting out of it is Attorney General Pam Bondi.
- [04:53]
Sam Stein
Why?
- [04:55]
Will Sommer
Well, she was, she was sort of like a, she was sort of late to the party in terms of talking about Epstein, but she really latched onto it. And I think speculating here, I think she saw it as her attempt because she, unlike Cash, Patel, Bongino, a lot.
- [05:08]
Sam Stein
Of other people, she wasn't like a podcaster. She wasn't like that. Well, she was on Fox a bunch, but she wasn't like, I don't know, she wasn't, she didn't do dalliances with the crazy conspiracies.
- [05:18]
Will Sommer
She doesn't have like, kind of like the, her own audience kind of. She's not like as clouded up as a lot of these people. And so she seems to have sort of seen this big revelation as like her moment. And so we know that in late.
- [05:30]
Sam Stein
February, like she could buy credibility with this crowd.
- [05:33]
Will Sommer
Exactly. She could be like, I'm the Epstein avenger or whatever. And so, you know, a bunch of right wing influencers were visiting the White House. She shows up unprompted with the Epstein Binders and said, you know, this is the first tranche of documents we're releasing. It was a big debacle because it all turned out to be public already.
- [05:51]
Sam Stein
Right. And then she was. Let's play this clip because it wasn't even that long ago. Let's see, February 21st. So it's not. So it's somewhat long ago, I guess. But she was fairly explicit. Like she said, I have a, I have the list, the client list on my desk. It wasn't like I'm reviewing what could be the client list. She's like, I have the list on my desk. And not only was she pushing out, but the White House's rapid response Twitter account pushed out the video of her saying this. So they put their account behind this. So let's take a listen to this and then you and I are going to sort of game how she tries to wiggle out of this one.
- [06:27]
Will Sommer
The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?
- [06:34]
Pam Bondi
It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the President from all of these agencies.
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Sam Stein
All right, so there she is. It's on her desk. She's looking at it. She's going to be releasing the list of the clients. All right, so how do you wiggle out of that?
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Will Sommer
I think she's going to say that when she was saying it's on my desk, she meant like, the Epstein matters broadly is on my list, man.
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Sam Stein
She said she had a list. How do you get out of that?
- [07:11]
Will Sommer
Well, and you know, I mean, the reality is she kept ratcheting it up even more. I mean, the binders thing was after the list remark, and then in, I think May.
- [07:20]
Sam Stein
Wait, hold on. She said she had the list on her desk and then released the binders. And the binders debacle happened after that.
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Will Sommer
That's correct. We would have to double check that. But okay, yeah. And so then in May, I think there's this kind of. You can see this push and play between the push and pull between the right wing media and the administration here because this is such a weird story. James o' Keefe gets her on tape talking to a nanny about and being like, this was like a really undercovered story. And so basically, like there's this footage of. It's like another James O' Keeffe operative. They're all circulating around D.C. who's like on another mission, sees Pam Bondi at a restaurant and she's like, pam Bondi, what's up with Epstein? You know, I got my buttonhole camera right here. And Pam Bondi goes, oh, my gosh, it's like thousands of victims and we have all these documents and videos. It's going to be crazy. And then Pam, basically, o' Keefe goes to DOJ and says, we have this video. So then Bondi tries to front run it by then saying at the White House, oh, we have all these documents. So there's this weird thing where he kind of forces her hand because I guess she's boasting about it privately. So, so then again, she said there were all this, these huge documents that were going to come out and then nothing.
- [08:34]
Sam Stein
So but that also was sort of, maybe I'm. You would know better than I would. But I mean, I'm trying to downplay the severity of what happened here because it's horrible. But it wasn't a thousand victims, as far as as I'm aware. It was like 250 or so. Right.
- [08:47]
Will Sommer
Well, just a few days ago, the AP had an interesting story that basically said, what are they talking about? You know, all the, the lawyers who have been involved in this case, the sort of Epstein experts said like thousands of victims or a thousand victims is way more than anyone anticipated. And there's this talk that Bondi claims that there are, you know, these databases of videos and servers, all this stuff.
- [09:09]
Sam Stein
How's she gonna get out of it? She's just making all these promises, making all these accusations that just aren't, Aren't, Aren't true. Like, well, I mean, what's she gonna say? Oh, the list I had was actually a to do list of things to around like disclosing Jeffrey Epstein. Stuff like, I, I don't understand how you can undo what you said.
- [09:26]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think she's in a tight spot here and I think maybe it's, it's time to start packing the bags for Florida because, you know, she. We have members of Congress like Anna Paulina Luna, James Comer, who are more than willing, I think, to put the screws to her on this. And I mean, she's kind of in a bind.
- [09:41]
Sam Stein
Why would they take. Why would they put the screws to her and not to Patel? Patel is the one who works for her.
- [09:46]
Will Sommer
Right. I think Caspitel and Bongino are seen as more like MAGA devotees than Pam Bondi. I think Pam Bondi is seen as maybe a little more expendable, at least by right wing media figures. And you know, I think also there's this aspect of. We've seen in the 12 hours or so since this came out that there has been. The right wing media figures are often very like quiet. Initially they just say, like, they just say, oh, you know, I guess, I guess nevermind about Epstein. But then they don't really like get a political valence to it. But since then though, we've seen a lot of people like Benny Johnson, for example, coming out. I believe it was a binder recipient coming out and saying, you know, this is like 1984, you know, all this stuff. And a lot of that heat is falling on Pam Bondi. People are saying Pam Bondi resigned, you know, all this stuff. So those are sort of the early tea leaves. Yeah, she was the one.
- [10:37]
Sam Stein
Yeah, but she didn't. She was the one that's promising them gold. And then Patel and Bongino come in and say, no, we don't have it.
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Will Sommer
Well, but you know, she, I mean, it's a DOJ and FBI memo. You know, the other thing I would say here is like, the reactions are just really cracking me up in terms of like how the Trump.
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Sam Stein
What's the online response basically?
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Will Sommer
Well, there's a lot of, there's kind of like we can put them in two camps. I mean, there's one camp of people who are like often more administration critical people who are also kind of in that more anti war with Iran camp who have criticized it in the past. And they're saying, you know, this is the deep state. You know, Trump has been, you know, adopted by the deep state. The people who got the binders, who are more sort of like establishment right wing characters, they're starting to get restless too. And so people like Benny Johnson, Jack Posobec, they're getting mad. And so I think, you know, I think a head might have to roll here. There's just really no way that, that you can square this. I mean they were, they were, this has been the storyline or one of the main storylines for.
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Sam Stein
I mean, I guess the way to square would be like, okay, I guess I was wrong, but that's not possible. Right. I'm being serious about this because you and I had this conversation a little while ago about like, what's the best way to unconvince conspiracy theorists about the conspiracy. Right. And your response was kind of chilling. In reflection, it was like you just have to move on to a different topic. Like you can never convince them. Maybe that's the case here and they just keep going on down the rabbit hole and find some other reason to believe that Bongino and Patel and Bondi were co opted by some deep state figure. But maybe they can admit they're wrong. I don't know.
- [12:16]
Will Sommer
I think often, I think often the conspiracy theory just becomes bigger. So like after 2020 they said, well, you know, Trump was supposed to purge the deep state, but I guess they were just stronger. Or you know, Mike Cernovich today who is very involved in sort of of Epstein conspiracy theories, he's saying, well, you know, the world is governed by pedophiles. What are you gonna do? And he basically said he's like, there's a hierarchy in this world and Trump's here and the pedophiles are way up.
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Sam Stein
Here, which, you know, Trump is controlled by the pedophile cabal. That's the pro Trump take convinced Bondi and Bongino that there was nothing there. Jesus, I can't even put my head around it. It's. It's depressing, honestly. It's like, you know, kind of overshadows and diminishes the actual human suffering that this man caused. What about Elon, though? He. Didn't he, at one point when he was leaving, say Trump was on the list?
- [13:07]
Will Sommer
Yes, he did. Yeah. So. So Elon obviously burned a lot of bridges when he said Trump. Essentially, Trump's a pedophile and on the list, and that's why the files won't come out. And he's been tweeting. I mean, he's been tweeting, you know, this is the last straw. What a scandal this is, that they aren't going to release the files. So maybe the America Party will get to the bottom of it.
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Sam Stein
It's the main platform they have. All right, well, I appreciate you of mucking it up for us in this sewer of our society and coming out relatively clean, I think.
- [13:36]
Will Sommer
Yeah. So just, I mean.
- [13:39]
Sam Stein
Yeah, well, at least you're sane for now. Will Summer, ladies and gentlemen, author of the False Flag newsletter, he's gonna be writing about all this for this evening's newsletter. So you should subscribe to that and you should subscribe to our YouTube feed where you get conversations like this. Until then, we'll catch you later.