← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Sarah Longwell
Hey, everybody. Sarah Longwell here, publisher of the Bulwark. And today I'm joined by Congresswoman Lizzie Fletcher, one of my favorite members of Congress, because not only is she a great member of Congress, but she is also an alumna of Kenyan College, the great Kenyon College. Do you see my Kenyan pillows?
- [00:17]
Lizzie Fletcher
I do see your Kenyan pillow. And, Sarah, the other day, I was watching, and I saw you had a little Kenyan flag on your screen. That was.
- [00:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Unfortunately, you can't. I was talking to Beto o' Rourke not that long ago. I was talking to him, and I was. I somehow managed to tell him I went to Kenyan within the first 30 seconds of talking to him. My colleague Sam Stein was like, I don't understand how this can be such an important part of your life. Like, you graduated 22 years ago. But.
- [00:43]
Lizzie Fletcher
But it is important.
- [00:44]
Sarah Longwell
It's the best place.
- [00:45]
Lizzie Fletcher
Totally important. Kenyon's a special place. I was thinking about that. Somebody made this joke the other day about, you know, how do you know someone's from Texas? And it's like, well, they'll tell you. Right? That's like the longstanding joke. And I'm like, same is true for people from Kenyon.
- [00:56]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [00:57]
Lizzie Fletcher
That's what we do.
- [00:58]
Sarah Longwell
We love to do it. Yeah. We met at Reunion. We met at Reunion some years, which is great. Okay. But we're not just here to talk about Kenyon. I mean, I would like to talk about that for 20 minutes, and I bet people would listen, but I'm sure.
- [01:11]
Lizzie Fletcher
We'D have a lot of people listening to that.
- [01:13]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. Because Kenyon is such a big powerhouse school that everybody knows about. But we're also here to talk about the Republican effort to redistrict Texas, where you are a congresswoman, which would. In their minds, their hope is that it will help them keep the house. So in 2024, Texas voters sent 25 Republicans and 13 Democrats to Congress. The proposed congressional map in Texas could bring that number as high as 30 Republican seats, eight Democratic seats. And so Democratic legislators, they have fled the state, including to Illinois, to deny Republicans a quorum. So they can't pass this. So just from your perspective, like, tell us what's going on there in Texas, like, what's. Because this is a big story. I mean, for August, the Texas redistricting has kind of been the thing. So, like, talk about what's happening.
- [02:01]
Lizzie Fletcher
Yeah. Well, thanks, Sarah. And it. It is a big thing because it is the thing. And what we're starting to see is that it's starting in Texas, but it's not ending in Texas. And so there are a lot of stories around this, but we were hearing it pretty early on. And so we've been in conversations in our congressional delegation and with leadership in the House and with our colleagues across the country about what's happening in Texas, because I think this is really where it's starting, but not where it's ending. And you're right about the numbers, and there are a bunch of important things to say about that. But essentially what we see is that they're trying to redraw these maps. And you have 13 Democratic seats, all of which, all the Democrats are elected by coalitions of minority voters. 12 out of the 13 seats are majority minority districts, and Texas is a majority minority state, and yet they are redrawing the maps so that now almost 80% of the seats will be Republican. And, you know, our Texas legislators are totally courageous. They have left the state to deny a quorum, which is in the Texas Constitution. There are a lot of penalties for doing that, and they're getting a lot of empty threats directed their way. But they've left to try to prevent this and to spread the word across the country that this is happening, because I'm sure you've seen they're talking about doing it in Indiana and Ohio and Florida now and Missouri. And so this isn't just about Texas. You know, we. We like to say everything's bigger in Texas, but, like, this is much bigger than Texas. And so our legislators are out, and it should be the story of the summer, and we've got to work together to stop it from happening.
- [03:38]
Sarah Longwell
So here's the thing, and I think this is important, just as we back up to like, Trump wants this because he doesn't want Congress to be controlled by Democrats. He doesn't want the oversight. And so he called up Governor Abbott and he was like, squeeze me out five additional seats. And of course, they want to do it in Florida, which was announced yesterday. You're right.
- [03:57]
Lizzie Fletcher
Right.
- [03:58]
Sarah Longwell
These other red states trying to do everything they can. Like, how unusual is it to do this mid decade redistricting? Like, doesn't happen, right?
- [04:07]
Lizzie Fletcher
Yeah, it's really unusual. They've done it in Texas once before. Basically, Texas was a Democratic state for a long time. And then the Republicans started winning elections in the 1990s, and. And in the early 2000s, the Republicans were in power. And so in 2003, they decided to try to redistrict Texas to change the balance of power where Our congressional delegation had a majority of Democrats and they wanted to redraw the maps and make it Republican. And it was led by the infamous Tom delay and he was then the whip in the House and kind of led this effort. And back then our state House reps and then the senators broke quorum and left the state to try to prevent implementing the map. Ultimately, after I think the senators were in New Mexico for like 47 days and they came back and eventually the maps passed and the Republicans took control of the congressional delegation, picked up five seats, eliminated a lot of Democratic districts, and they have had the majority of our delegation ever since. Right now it's really a disproportionate majority compared to the voters. And I, I do think it's important. I always like to tell people there are a lot of people that vote for Democrats in Tex. Consistently, Democrats get at least, you know, 45% of the vote. So you're looking at not quite a 50, 50 split, but like 45% of the vote of 30 million people is a lot of people. I was history major, I wasn't a math major, but that's a lot of people that vote for Democrats in the state and they're really trying to dilute the voting power of all of those people by redistricting and drawing these more Republican seats.
- [05:39]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So your point about this kind of just being the, the first, like that this is going to become a national issue because it's going to go these other places. I was listening to Governor Abbott with Eric Erickson yesterday. Conservative, used to be a never Trump guy. Now he's a MAGA guy. And I was struck listening to Governor Abbott by how clear he was about this is just a strictly a power play, like, we want those seats. This is going to be good for Republicans. And Eric wasn't pushing back in any way that would say, like, is it right to do, Is it against the rules? He was just like, wait, here's my one concern. Are you sure it's not going to backfire by these other states, like California and other blue states, redistricting as well and going tit for tat. Are you sure this is going to redound to the benefit of Republicans? And Abbott said, absolutely. These people are ridiculous. They can't find more seats in these other states. And so he had this like strong kind of power play mentality that seemed to think they weren't going to be able to get these other seats in California and other places to match what Texas was doing. But I know that part of the theory among Democrats right now is that they're going out around the country to say, you guys got to get engaged in this, too. So we're all in this fight together. How do you think that's going to play out?
- [06:59]
Lizzie Fletcher
That's right. Well, I think there are two things, Sarah, and they're sort of the legal and the political. And so I'll kind of take them in that order. But number one, I think one of the reasons that you hear Republicans saying over and over this just political is because the Supreme Court has said that political gerrymandering is just fine. Right. So they're saying, oh, it's all just political. We've got the power. And, and they are pretty shameless about it. I mean, most of them have been pretty quiet. Right. Like, you hear in the background that Republicans don't really want this to happen, but they're not speaking up, they're not testifying at these hearings that we've had across the state, hearings where they had seven or eight hearings on the map before they had hearings about the flooding in Central Texas, which is ostensibly the reason that they're there. Right. They're pretty clear and transparent that this is their priority, that this is what they're doing, and they're doing it for Donald Trump. But it is also true that courts have said, well, political gerrymandering is fine. And so the more they say this is just a power play, we're not trying to discriminate against black and Latino and Asian Texans, which is what these maps do, the more they think that they're building kind of COVID to pass their maps in court. So I think that's a really important piece of this because as I mentioned, those 13 seats currently held by Democrats all have majority minority electorates that elect those candidates of choice. And not surprisingly, the 25 seats that are Republicans are elected by Anglo voters, even though minority communities make up more than 60% of the population of Texas. But Anglo voters control More than 65% of the seats, and with these new maps, it'll be closer to 80. So it's really, there's a huge racial dimension here that they want to overlook and build this record that that's not what they're doing when it is. So, so that's a real piece.
- [08:44]
Sarah Longwell
I'm sorry, you just, that just clicked for me. I, I, and you know what? I follow this stuff, and if I follow this and I didn't quite realize that, then I guarantee you a lot of other people didn't either. Your point is. Yeah, they're being super aggressive about the fact that it's politically motivated because political gerrymandering is legal, racial gerrymandering isn't. And so even though what they're doing, and it's a funny thing actually, because that's a little bit potato, potato, because if you say like, well, lot of these majority minority districts are more likely to have Democratic voters, there's like a lot of overlap there. But they are. That is it. They want to avoid anybody saying, well, this is a racially MO motivated gerrymander.
- [09:26]
Lizzie Fletcher
Yeah. But they're also just shameless about it politically. Right. And they're asserting their authority and they're saying, you know, I saw a state rep on TV saying, well, we're doing this because we can. And they're not asking the question that you asked and that Texas Democrats are asking, which is, is it the right thing to do? The answer to that is clearly no. Right. So they're not doing it because they're the right thing. They're not doing it because it's what Texans want them to do. They're doing it because Donald Trump wants them to do it and they are afraid of Donald Trump. And so, you know, I do think the backfire question comes out a couple of different ways. One, I think it could backfire on them because I think Democrats will contest these seats if these maps are enacted. Two, I think Democrats in other states are looking at their maps in this moment. Now, some people have said we need kind of corrective and temporary measures, but whatever it is, that Democrats are looking at this too. So I don't think they can make this assumption that, you know, they're definitely going to win, especially because their policies are so bad and the things that they're doing in Washington are hurting real people and they're totally failing on their campaign promises. I mean, you know, I'm an avid focus group listener and people have been talking about costs forever. Are costs coming down? No. Right. Costs are going up. Tariffs are going up. As much as Donald Trump wants to say that, you know, we're bringing in money from tariffs, we're bringing it in from Americans. Right. So people are not happy with their policies and they shouldn't assume that they can just draw their way out of this problem. They have prioritized Donald Trump to the detriment of their constituents. And there is going to be a reckoning next November. It's important for us to be able to talk about all of those things. And the power grab piece is an important part of that, too. And I don't want to just ramble on. But like, we have seen this incredible power grab from the White House in every context, right. They're taking power from Congress, they're taking power from the courts, they're ignoring court orders, and now they want to draw our congressional maps. I think it's important for people across the country to understand that we don't want this. Right. You saw those no Kings protests. That goes back to our founding documents. We don't want a king. That's what they're trying to do. And so they really should think twice before they just do whatever Trump demands of them, because they are going to have a reckoning next November and beyond. And that's why I think, you know, it could definitely backfire on them, and it should backfire on them.
- [11:50]
Sarah Longwell
I remember a Republican Party that this kind of executive overreach would never have been tolerated from, wouldn't even have been considered because it's not the role of the federal government. But actually, you just said something that is interesting that I just want to drill down on for one second. You said we're going to contest all the seats in this new map. Does that mean that you think that even if they redraw the maps to be favorable, they don't automatically pick up those five seats? You think you people can. Democrats can still win those seats they think they're going to get?
- [12:19]
Lizzie Fletcher
I do, I do. I mean, look, they're going to be tough races. But I've looked at the maps. That's part of my job. And right now our fight is to prevent the maps from being enacted. And that is job number one. But job number two is if these maps do get enacted, which the governor and the legislature have not said that they won't do it yet. If these maps get enacted, I think that you see some of these districts that have been drawn, Democrats could win. And in fact, Democrats have won historically, like in 2018, the way these are configured, I think Democrats can win these seats. And so we know we have a commitment. We've had conversations at the DCCC and with others, and I think we're going to see real investment in Texas. Of course, we need to get great candidates and we need to talk to people, but we're going to have the resources and we are not going away. We are not going to give up these seats without a fight, because it's about the seats and the balance of power, but it's about the people we represent and it's about these fundamental principles of democracy that everybody should have a right to Have a say. And when you go into the voting booth, it should matter what you do. And so we're going to keep fighting. And I think, you know, I've said for a long time, the only way I see Republicans doing things differently is when they start losing elections. And so I'm going to be completely focused on making sure that they lose elections in as many places as possible. And we are not ceding any territory in 2026 or going forward.
- [13:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, love that. So it came out yesterday that the FBI, speaking of executive overreach and other politicized institutions that used to. We used to be able to count on to be roughly nonpartisan. The FBI approved Senator John Cornyn's request for help locating the Texas legislators who have left the state. I don't know. I guess they just mess with Texas.
- [14:13]
Lizzie Fletcher
But what.
- [14:15]
Sarah Longwell
My producer put that in. He's so corny. I can't. It's so. I apologize.
- [14:19]
Lizzie Fletcher
One of those things Texans say and it annoys everyone, but, you know, it's true.
- [14:24]
Sarah Longwell
What do you make of this? Like they're going to unleash the FBI to go track people down.
- [14:30]
Lizzie Fletcher
I mean, it's embarrassing, Sarah. It's embarrassing. I wish that Senator Cornyn had not made that ask. It's embarrassing. I think that he should show some more dignity in this moment. That is certainly something that they have fought at every turn. And don't forget, like, Texas rejected Medicaid expansion because they don't want the federal involvement. Right. Ken Paxton and the Texas governor sued the Biden administration time after time after time because of federal overreach. And so now you see them, you know, trying to call in the FBI, which, by the way, those legislators are not hard to find. They've been having press conferences, they've been showing up with governors. They've been advising the media where they're going to be. You don't need the FBI. And frankly, the FBI doesn't have any jurisdiction. There's nothing they can do with them. Because this goes back to that key point, breaking quorum is totally legal. It's in the Texas Constitution that says you need a 2/3 majority to have a quorum. And if you don't have a quorum, a smaller number of legislators can vote on how to get them back or what to do or, you know, deal with absences. But like, it's in the Constitution. So what does the FBI even have to go after them for? It's just crazy. But it's part of this bullying tactic, fear tactics that you see emanating from the White House coming down into the legislatures and, you know, happening across the country, just trying to scare people. And I love that our state reps are just like, bring it on. Right. We're not. We're not going to take this. In fact, you probably saw, I mean, one of these other big Texas things is like the Goliath Battle of Goliad and the Goliad flag in the. The. The cannon. Right. And there's this flag that just says.
- [16:17]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, no, now you're speaking Texas to me.
- [16:19]
Lizzie Fletcher
Yeah, take it. And that was their response. Right. Because that's who we are. Right. That. Remember the Alamo. Right. Like, we are gonna fight. And that is very true to Texas. And so these things that, frankly, Governor Abbott, who is currently trying to remove the leader of the House Democratic Caucus from his seat, I don't know if you've seen that, but he filed a petition directly in the Texas Supreme Court to remove the caucus leader, who's duly elected, who is beloved. He's my constituent. He lives in my district. We represent all the same people. And he's great. He's beloved. He gets 75% of the vote. Greg Abbott's trying to take him out of his seat. It's insane. And Texans are not going to fall for that. You know, they're just not. But their attitude is, you know, bring it on. We're fighting for the people and you're fighting for Donald Trump. And we know we're on the right side of history, but we know we're on the right side of every part of this. And so I'm really grateful to them and just really proud to be represented by them in this moment.
- [17:23]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. That is Congressman Wu is his name. Yes, that's right. Just going back to Cornyn real quick and him unleashing the FBI, which I don't even. What's he going to do? They're going to go handcuff these guys and, like, march them back and sit them down and be like, vote now.
- [17:37]
Lizzie Fletcher
But I mean, what could. What could the FBI even handcuff them for?
- [17:40]
Sarah Longwell
I don't know. Just to get them back. I don't know. They're just going to start dragging people back to their state. I don't know what they do. Nothing seems great. But I love that they're being fearless about this and not letting that intimidate them, because I do think that's what this moment requires. But Cornyn, even you were saying, it's embarrassing. What I love about what Cornyn's doing, and by love, I Mean, it's terrible, but it's all political. It's all about him trying to butch up because Paxton is ahead of him in all of the polls, and he's very worried that Donald Trump is going to endorse Ken Paxton and he's going to lose a Senate seat to an even bigger lunatic. Although at this point, who can really tell the difference? But how is the local politics and the things that are going on there kind of affecting what's happening around this gerrymandering question?
- [18:22]
Lizzie Fletcher
Well, I do think that's a really important point because what you're seeing is kind of the governor and the attorney general and the lieutenant governor talking to off, talking tough. And then you've got Cornyn getting in on the action. And you're right. I mean, the polling is not in his favor. And I think, you know, they're just, there are a lot of things, but you see, they're all just trying to curry favor with Trump, and it's gross. Right? And people see that on the ground here. I mean, I do think people see it. So there, there were field hearings on the maps, and overwhelmingly, people showed up to testify against them. We did a rally beforehand. We did a day of action last weekend with my campaign group, and people are just showing up out of everywhere. In fact, with Gene Wu, in this current effort to remove him from office, we're collecting, like, thank you notes and thank you cards to deliver to his, to him, through his team. And, like, people are, like, knocking on the door, bringing stuff to us, like, signing up to just say thank you. Like, people see it. People know what's happening and they know who's fighting for them and who's fighting for Trump. And the Republicans need to think about that because they will be accountable next November. And you can only draw these maps so far. So they're not really thinking about their legacy. They're thinking about their political survival in the moment. They're not thinking about what's right, certainly. I mean, that is clearly out the window. But I think Texans expect more and better, especially from our senator. And look, we're going to have a competitive Senate race next year, no matter what happens. And so, you know, you got to think about this and running, running for the primary, that's a huge part of what's wrong with politics, is, is listening only to the primary voters. But we're going to do a lot to mobilize people across the state of 30 million people, 10 million of whom will be in new congressional districts if this map goes into effect. You know, and like these congressmen need to worry too. And I guess I say, Congressman, there are two women in the Republican delegation from Texas, but like they're getting a ton of new constituents that don't know them. They could be subject to primary challenges themselves. You know, there are a lot of reasons that Republicans shouldn't be doing this that are practical, but the basic reason they shouldn't be doing it is because it's wrong.
- [20:34]
Sarah Longwell
Well, it is funny. You do now have some California Republican congressmen, some New York Republican congressmen, like lawlers out there being like, ban it, ban it, don't do it. Because they're the ones who end up going down if California and New York decide to respond in kind with that hardball. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us. I, and I appreciate like the optimism and the like way you're pushing this forward because this is all about a power grab. And I'm glad to see people are, you know, there's an older version of Sarah Longwell that would have been like, people shouldn't flee the state. And but this is not fleeing.
- [21:09]
Lizzie Fletcher
I don't like the word flee just because you know what, you're right, they left the state. They're not fleeing the state. They're leaving on principle and they're spreading the word and they're going out across the country because, you know, we've discussed this like this is a five alarm fire for democracy right now. We really are in a crisis and they're leaving the state and demonstrating through their actions. What's at stake is really important for people to see. So I don't mean to like, you know, get into semantics and pick on you for using the word left, but I love it.
- [21:38]
Sarah Longwell
No, it's important. It's words. Words matter, right?
- [21:41]
Lizzie Fletcher
They're not fleeing, they're leaving and they are spreading the message and they are trying to save our democracy and they're trying to save people all across America. And like I said, I'm so proud to be represented by them. I'm so grateful to them. And I'm really, I'm grateful to you for having me on and letting me talk about this because I do think people should be paying attention. It's the story of August. It's going to be the story of the year and the story of 2026. But I agree with you, like, we can't give up. We have no other options. So we're going to keep fighting. We're going to fight the maps and then we're going to fight in the elections. And we're going to fight and fight and fight, and we're not going to give up.
- [22:15]
Sarah Longwell
Love that. That's that Kenyan spirit. Congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us. And thanks to all of you for watching. Be sure to become a Bulwark plus member@the bulwark.com and subscribe to the Bulwark on YouTube. Okay, we'll see you guys later.