Lauren Egan (3:26)

Yeah. I also think the fact that he's went public and talked to you for this also speaks to the severity of what he saw. Can you talk to. Talk to us a little bit about why Adam kind of decided to come forward now and what you think he was trying to accomplish? Because it is a big deal for a former chief of staff to talk so openly about. About their boss like that.

Ben Terrace (3:49)

Yeah. I mean, covering Washington, it's. It's incredible to get staff to talk about anything with their name on the record. And so when they do, I think it's. It really is a big deal. And, you know, credit to Adam, I mean, I think it's a brave thing to do. I think he probably risks career repercussions for it. Loyalty is very important in Washington. And if you are seen as somebody who's willing to throw your boss under the bus, that can hurt you professionally. And I think that really speaks to the severity of what he was seeing. And if you. When I talked to him, because I asked him, I was like, why? Why now? First of all, even before. Why now? Why talk to me before that? Why talk to the doctor? Right. Why. Why send this letter at all? That's a. That's a big step. And what he said is there was a long time where he was in the office where it was kind of unclear. It was a gray area. Right. Where things don't seem great. But are they as bad as I think they are? Am I the crazy one? Are things, you know, is everything that I'm witnessing actually a result of a mental health issue? Or is this just what John Fetterman is like? Right? And each individual moment, you could have that wonder and that worry, but with enough time and enough space, you look at the whole thing together and then you see how things are going when you're no longer in the office. And I think that was enough to make him say, all right, I'm worried that he's going to get hurt or he's going to hurt somebody. So I want to put this all on record to the doctor and do everything we can to get him the help that he needs. A month later, John Fetterman is in a car crash that nearly kills somebody, right? He's going well over the speed limit. He smashes up his car in the car of a 62 year old woman. The police get on the phone with a staffer in Fetterman's office and say, you know, a miracle, nobody died. And so that kind of proves the point here, which is that there, you know, there could be a dangerous situation that arises if we're not careful.

Lauren Egan (5:40)

You have a line in there, too, where you say, like, some of his current staffers worry that he may present a risk to the Democratic Party. What do you think they meant by that? Because I think it kind of plays into this idea. Like, if you can't do the job, that's a problem.

Ben Terrace (5:55)

Right. You know, politics plays into this story. Right? Again, if you were to take the word of the naysayers of this article, you know, this article got read by a lot of people, which means a lot of people thought it was important and, you know, kind of the kind of story that needs to be told. Other people thought it was a hit job. Right? And the people who think it's a hit job often think it's because of politics. Senator Fetterman, especially with the way he talks about Israel and Palestine, is on the kind of quote, unquote, wrong side of the Democratic Party on this issue. And people think, okay, well, this is just a bunch of disgruntled staffers who hate the way that Fetterman talks about Palestine and Israel. And so now we're going to try to take them down. I don't believe that's true at all. I think these are people who truly believe what they believe. They truly are worried about him, but they also might be more willing to speak about these things because they don't like the politics, right. And Federman's politics and the way that he talks about issues and the way that he carries himself is reflective of the Democratic Party in some way. Right. You get Fox News segments that say, you know, a Democrat has done this or that, or people are worried about Democrats in disarray because the Democratic Party is always kind of fighting with itself about the path forward. And so I think there are people who worry about Fetterman's role in that. Is he, you know, dragging the party down or is he part of the solution to take it, you know, take the party to the future?

Lauren Egan (7:25)

I think a lot of people look at Fetterman maybe a little bit, you know, from the outside and say, this guy could be the answer to the Democratic Party's problems right now. He kind of has that, you know, like, working class vibe to him. Do you think that the Biden stuff has changed the calculation at all?

Ben Terrace (7:43)

Oh, of course. You know, I asked people about this, right? That people don't want to be part. Nobody wants to use the word cover up, right? When you're in Democratic politics, nobody wants to say the word cover up. So that's not their word. But nobody wants to be part of the problem. If there is somebody who is going through something and eventually it could become a problem for the party or for their election chances or even their own job security, people don't want to. They don't want to hold that on their shoulders anymore and keep quiet about it. But Biden was a big wake up call. I mean, there's books that are coming out in the next few weeks, and there's, you know, news stories every day about, you know, the extent of that problem. And I think the people who are talking about it now, you know, they're kind of playing defense now as opposed to sounding the alarm in real time when it matters. You know, I get it. Right. I understand. I'm not. I'm not naive. If you're running a presidential campaign and it's Biden against Trump, and Biden to you feels like the, you know, the only bulwark, so to speak, against, you know, to keep democracy safe from autocracy, sure, you might kind of hide the ball on some things because you feel like, you know, you got to get your guy across the finish line. I think there's some truth to that, too. With. If Fetterman was up for election right now, would these people be speaking. I don't know. If Fetterman was, you know, the most popular Democrat in the entire Senate and was speaking on issues the way that all these staffers truly believed. Also, would they be as likely to speak on it? I don't know. But certainly Biden is kind of weighing on people in a way that is making them speak more freely than I think they would have otherwise.

Lauren Egan (9:24)

You got some time with him for the piece, and I'm curious what that interaction was like and what that conversation was like, because, I mean, writing about mental health and anyone's health is obviously really challenging. I'm sure it's hard when you have to go. Go to them face to face and kind of walk them through what you've been hearing.

Ben Terrace (9:43)

Yeah, it was a hard conversation, honestly. I mean, it started out not hard. And, you know, I'd written about him in 2018. We'd spent time together. He drove me around in his pickup truck through Braddock and neighboring towns. And I think he really kind of appreciated the story I wrote about him. I think he felt like I got him. And so we had kind of an easy rapport to begin with. We, you know, just kind of shot the shit for a while and talked about politics and his place in the party and what it was like to go to Mar A Lago. And he's. He's good. I mean, he's. He's able to. To do a good, you know, interview. And it's. That was important to kind of put in the piece as well, because one thing that people told me is it's not. This is not a guy who is 100% of the time not doing well. He has ups and downs. He can be erratic. He can have days and weeks where he's great. He can have days and weeks where he's bad. He could have hours where he's good and hours where he's bad. Right. It's not a simple story of a guy who's always struggling. And so I got to see the good side. The John Fetterman kind of at his best. And he still struggles with the auditory stuff from the stroke, and speaking can be a little garbled, but he seems like he's there. That's part of his story, too. So I wanted to make sure I got that as part of. Part of the piece and part of our conversation. But I will say, when it did turn to the topic of mental health, you know, the tone in the room changed. He was. He was pretty unhappy, let's say, about the line of questioning he got kind of angry about. I think he felt like he was blindsided a little bit. And that part of the conversation was Tough. And, you know, he denied it. He says that he's better than he's ever been. He blames his undisgruntled staff and kind of feels like people are out to get him. And I think he thinks that it's about politics. And so the second half of the conversation did feel different than the first half.

Lauren Egan (11:38)

You talked to some other senators for the piece as well. This kind of goes into, like, the politics question and motivations for people kind of, you know, wanting to hang on to Fetterman or not. What were some of the other folks that you talked to that, that work with him? What were they saying about. About Fetterman?

Ben Terrace (11:54)

Yeah, so two of the people that I spoke to for this piece were Democratic Senator Peter Welch and Republican Senator Katie Britt. And the three of them kind of have a friendship that, that goes back to them coming into the Senate at the same time. They go out to dinner every once in a while. They talk about their families. John Fetterman loves Katie Britt's husband, who's like another big guy. He calls him the big unit. They like, you know, they hang out, they go to Chinese food or Peter Welch apparently is a good cook. And, you know, they talk about the foibles of the Senate and how annoying it is, have to stay late for votes and they want to get back to their families. And, you know, they, they hit it off. And I truly believe that they, their experience with Fetterman is a good one, that they see him at his best. And, you know, when they have an hour long lunch or dinner together, they, they hit it off and they do. And, you know, they kind of get along as buds. You know, I talked to a lot of other people, too, who didn't want to put their names in the story because it's, you know, it's easier to put your name in the story when you're talking about how cool your friend is. It's harder when you're talking about the difficulties of working with somebody that you have to work with. And, you know, he is, for the most part, a pretty isolated individual in the Senate. It's not like he's got tons of friends. You know, it's not like a lot of hallway chatter with people when, you know, they're walking past each other. Some people kind of say it has to do a lot with just like the fact that he doesn't wear the right clothes that allow him to go onto the Senate to vote. A lot of senators hang out on the Senate floor, and that's where they catch up and they, you know, gossip and they talk about what's going on and, you know, get people on bills or whatever. And, and Fetterman famously wears his hoodie and shorts. So when he votes, he goes to the, the doorway of the Senate and he puts his thumb up or his thumb down and that's how he votes. And then he's gone. And so, you know, stuff like that. And also just, you know, kind of his state, he's, he's for the most part, kind of a, a lonely figure in the Senate, I'd say.

Lauren Egan (13:47)

Yeah. And to that point, how do you think about what is sort of a symptom of some of his health challenges versus, like, what, what is just his personality, what's just John Fetterman, like, his position on Israel? I know in the piece he kind of is definitely defending it in a way and saying, this is always who I've been. Whereas some other staff members, I think, sort of seem to imply that, you know, it was a symptom of some of the challenges he's had. How do you think through, like, what's just him versus what's a, what's a problem?

Ben Terrace (14:18)

Yeah, it's hard for me to say. Right. Like, I can't get inside of his brain. And so I can. All I can do is kind of present the information that I have and let readers decide for themselves what they feel about, you know, what is what. Personally, I don't think that, you know, his, his mental health struggles is defined his position on Israel, and I don't think even his staff think that. Right. They, what they, the way that that kind of intersects with the story that I'm writing is less about his policy beliefs and more about how he talks about it, how he carries himself. You know, he'll have a meeting with somebody from the kind of liberal Jewish organization, J Street, and he'll say some pretty out of pocket things. According to my reporting, people heard him say things like, you know, let's end the ceasefire, we got to get back to the killing. Somebody overheard the conversation, said he heard him say we have to kill them all. From a policy standpoint, these people just disagree with that, I'm sure. But also from a kind of a human standpoint, there's a question of why is he talking like this to this person? I mean, is he thinking through the way that he sounds right now? Is he aware of his surroundings? Is he. These are the questions that people have. It's not, wow, he's now pro Israel because he had a traumatic brain thing happen it's. How are you talking about this? How are you feeling about this? He's a guy who. His career is defined by his kind of radical empathy that he has. He famously has murder victims tattooed on his arms from his time at Braddock as the mayor of Braddock. I mean, you know, he could say that he's being empathetic to the victims of Hamas attacks, which is true. And he does, I'm sure, care deeply about that. I'm not trying to negate that. There's just something about his lack of ability to keep a conversation from going off the rails that has people like, what's going on in this. In this room right now.

Lauren Egan (16:19)

Well, Ben, it's such a good piece. I know something like this takes an enormous amount of work. So thank you for. For writing it and thanks for coming on here to chat with us about it.

Ben Terrace (16:30)

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.