Republicans Could Have Stopped Trump. They Didn’t. (w/ Jeff Flake)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes
Episode: Republicans Could Have Stopped Trump. They Didn’t. (w/ Jeff Flake)
Host: Charlie Sykes (for The Bulwark)
Guest: Senator Jeff Flake
Date: June 29, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Charlie Sykes sits down with former Senator Jeff Flake to reflect on the pivotal moments when Republicans could have checked Donald Trump's rise—and why so few did. With candor and insight, Flake assesses the GOP’s transformation, his own decisions, and the consequences for American democracy. The conversation delves into moral courage, lost traditions, the challenges of principled conservatism, and prospects for the future of the Republican Party.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jeff Flake’s 2017 Senate Speech and Its Relevance Today

Timestamps: 01:20–02:52

• Sykes references Flake’s memorable 2017 Senate speech, noting its urgency and prescience: “You could be giving that speech today, right?”
• Flake clarifies the context: it wasn't a resignation but rather an announcement not to seek re-election, given political realities in the Trump era.
• Flake explains his conviction that Arizona voters had a tradition of independent-minded politicians and hoped they would value dissent (“I thought that Arizona voters would appreciate somebody who would push back.” [03:22, Flake])—but the party base demanded complete loyalty to Trump.

Notable Quote:

“We are, of course, testing the institution of American liberty in ways that none of us ever imagined we would and in ways that we probably never should.”
— Jeff Flake [01:39]

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2. Why Republican Lawmakers Didn't Stand Up

Timestamps: 05:09–07:50

• Sykes laments how few Republicans responded to Flake’s “clarion call” for courage.
• Flake identifies critical moments when collective action could have changed history (“if we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time.” [05:59, Flake]).
• He singles out moments after January 6 and McConnell’s decision not to unite Republicans on impeachment, and McCarthy’s journey to Mar-a-Lago, as missed opportunities.
• Flake laments the Senate’s forfeiture of its institutional role:

  “To see Congress just willingly give that up, just cede that territory...that's what's been painful. And for me, no office is worth that.” [06:30, Flake]

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3. The Dynamics of GOP Silence and Self-Interest

Timestamps: 07:50–10:20

• Sykes and Flake discuss why Republicans only speak out after losing office or as retirement approaches.
• Flake observes the “emboldening” effect as primaries pass—“some people...speak out,” but only then.
• Flake critiques the performative loyalty of many (“the vast majority of my former colleagues don’t want to be rubber stamps...but he [Trump] carries a big stick.” [08:12, Flake])
• He predicts this dynamic can’t last:

  “That is ending. And so I think Republicans will migrate back to more familiar territory...That’s coming to an end.” [09:22, Flake]

• Flake also notes Democrats’ role (“I hope the Democrats realize that they've got to occupy that middle ground. And if they do, Republicans will be forced to contest that as well.” [09:57, Flake])

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4. Character vs. Policy, and Reckonings with the Modern GOP

Timestamps: 11:49–17:13

• Sykes pushes on the moral disqualification of lawmakers’ silence and lack of courage (“if character matters...I have found it sort of disqualifying...” [12:32, Sykes])
• Flake reasserts that “anger and grievance are not a governing philosophy” and sees the limits of Trumpian populism.
• Discussion of J.D. Vance and Trump imitators:

  “The one thing that gives me hope is that President Trump’s imitators have not done well.” [13:35, Flake]

• Arizona as a case study: Republican losses when nominating Trump-style candidates.
• On future GOP leadership, Flake suggests Marco Rubio as someone who could pivot back to traditional conservatism, with reservations about his current posture.

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5. Endorsements, Divided Government, and Character as a Guiding Principle

Timestamps: 15:28–19:51

• Flake asked about endorsing Democrats (James Talarico) and moderate Republicans (Susan Collins):

  “My point was you do best as a party when you vote for character.” [17:13, Flake]

• Flake uses historic examples, such as opposition to Roy Moore, to argue for putting character before party.
• Flake contends that “character trumps policy every day of the week. Policies can change, but character remains.” [19:38, Flake]

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6. Life after the Senate: Public Service and Encouraging the Next Generation

Timestamps: 19:51–22:08

• Flake discusses serving as U.S. Ambassador to Turkey under President Biden.

  “It was an incredible honor to represent the country in Turkey...politics should stop at the water's edge.” [20:08, Flake]

• Now, he heads an institute of politics at Arizona State University and remains involved in education and public policy debates.

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Memorable Quotes

• On the Senate’s passive surrender to Trump:

  “When you’re neutered, you’re not doing anything, you’re just agreeing and that’s what’s been painful.”
  — Jeff Flake [06:44]

• On the missed chance to stop Trump:

  “If we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time... There are a couple of hinge points that we saw, that if we would have stood up... we could have avoided this.”
  — Jeff Flake [05:59]

• On moral clarity over party loyalty:

  “You do best as a party when you vote for character... character trumps policy every day of the week.”
  — Jeff Flake [17:13, 19:38]

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Major Segments: Timestamps

• 2017 Speech & Its Resonance Today — [01:20–02:52]
• Why GOP Lawmakers Didn’t Stand Up — [05:09–07:50]
• Consequences of GOP Silence/Self-interest — [07:50–10:20]
• Crisis of Character and Leadership — [11:49–17:13]
• Endorsements and Divided Government — [15:28–19:51]
• Flake’s Post-Senate Roles — [19:51–22:08]

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Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, sometimes rueful, threaded with hope and regret. Sykes presses Flake with challenging, good-humored skepticism; Flake responds with humility, clarity, and underlying optimism about America’s institutional resilience. Both voices reflect wistfulness for a more principled political era.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out as a frank, personal reckoning with the institutional failure to stop Trump’s domination of the GOP. Flake’s perspective illuminates the crossroads of conscience and party, while also offering a glimmer of hope for a future return to principle, character, and functional democracy.

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Transcript

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[Charlie Sykes]

Found out backstage, Jeff Flake's a big bulwark guy. That's great. We love that. So, you know, I don't do a lot of preparation for interviews as a just as a habit. But what I did for you was I went and watched what must have been your 2017 resignation speech.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

We are, of course, testing the institution of American liberty in ways that none of us ever imagined we would and in ways that we probably never should. Again, my colleagues to say that our politics is not healthy is somewhat of an understatement. I believe that we all know well that this is not a normal time and that the threats to our democracy from within and without are real. And none of us can say with confidence how the situation that we now find ourselves in will turn out.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I'll tell you, it got me as like, I don't know another word for it. It got me as hot now like I need a cigarette after I watched it. But what struck me, right, so you're like, you know, you're saying all the things it could have been. You could be giving that speech today, right? Because it is about what happens when Congress lays down Madisonian, you know, the Congress needs to stand up and there has to be a counteracting of ambitions and checks and balances. And you quote Roosevelt, the good one, the Republican one. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. And you close with Lincoln. It's perfect. How do you think things have been going since you did that?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

That was a long time ago.

[Charlie Sykes]

But.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

But if I had to give the speech again, I don't think I'd change anything at that time. And it wasn't a resignation speech. I didn't resign. I just said you weren't going to run again. I wasn't going to run again. This was October of 2017, so I still had 15 months after that in office. But I could tell, and frankly, I wanted to run for re election. Nobody gets to the Senate and just wants to be there one term. And so I wanted to, and I thought that I could. Initially, when President Trump was elected, I didn't support him in 2016, but I thought that Arizona voters have always been independent. There's the independent streak that goes through them. Barry Goldwater and John McCain and Mavericks all over. And I thought that Arizona voters would appreciate somebody who would push back.

[Charlie Sykes]

Did they?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

No. It became clear by that time, by October, And I wrote a book, didn't tell my staff I was writing it because I didn't want to be talked out of it. And I released it in July of 17 titled Stole the Barry Goldwater Conscience of a Conservative. And basically was trying to explain why what we were seeing from Donald Trump was not conservatism. And. And I had hoped that, you know, people would say, yeah, conservatives, Republicans. But it became quite clear that that subset of. A subset of a subset of voters that votes in Republican primaries wanted somebody who was all in with the President. And I couldn't be.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, I gotta say, having just watched you on my iPad earlier today, you have not aged a day. That was a long time ago. When you walked into the green moon, I was like, this guy looks exactly like he looked like that day. It's amazing. Congratulations on whatever you're doing. I'm sure it's a lot of raw milk. Not sure what it is, but whatever RFK is prescribing really seems to be working for you.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

I'm not a milk guy. I grew up milking a cow. You know, I grew up on a ranch. And no, I don't.

[Charlie Sykes]

Republicans are really into milk these days.

[Commercial Narrator]

Not me.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Not me.

[Charlie Sykes]

I wanted to have kind of a real conversation. You were, like, a real inspiration to me at the time to a lot of us. But when I was listening I got so sad because you were making this clarion call to your colleagues to do something and they did didn't like it's, I mean a couple of them, I mean McCain stood up back then and we've seen Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney but just such a, such a precious few and now, you know, now that we're nine years later. You're watching Cornyn, you're watching the doctor who said RFK was fine. Cassidy thank you. I'm a 46 year old woman so I've got some brain fog sometimes. The yeah, tell us what do you make of the fact that nobody did stand up?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

You know the sad thing is, is if we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time. There are a couple of hinge points that we saw that, that if we would have stood up and I mean you can go to January 6th, had Mitch McConnell at that time afterwards and you know, say hey I'm going to vote for impeachment, let's have everybody do it instead, just eight did Kevin McCarthy had he you know, not gone down to Mar a Lago?

[Charlie Sykes]

Kevin yeah, yeah.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

To rehabilitate there, there are a couple of hitch points that, that, that we could have avoided this. We really could have. And that's what's difficult to see and what's really difficult is the Senate has always been, you know, this institution that stands athwart history. You know the, the rules are such that empower the individual and then people stand up and guard the prerogatives of the institution. They believe in the Senate as an Institution, Article 1 branch house too but in particular the Senate given the other responsibilities and that's what's just been so painful to see is I mean modern day presidency will always take more power from the legislative branch. It's just the way the system is. But to see Congress just willingly give that up, just cede that territory, just give up its prerogative. That's what's been painful and for me no office is worth that. I mean to be reelected, just to be reelected. When you're neutered, you're not doing anything, you're just agreeing and that's what's been painful. And so I've loved seeing what we're starting to see now it's bladed but, but it's coming. I, I, I think there is some kind of migration going on.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh really? Say more about that. What is the migration? You mean how they are all getting voted out of office because Trump targets them. And then they maybe say one or two things now that they're headed out. I mean, I don't mean to be.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

No, no, no.

[Charlie Sykes]

I like to be optimistic about this stuff. But it's actually, to me, it's a little sadder actually watching them after they lose some suddenly say a few things, you know.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Well, whether you call it self interest or whatever else, I think it's coming. We're getting past the filing deadlines and primaries. And so that emboldens some people to speak out or they are defeated in a primary, and so they speak out. And some people say, yeah, I like that. What Republicans used to stand for. But with the exception of a few senators, you know, Tommy Tuberville and a few others who are true believers and who really like what they see, the vast majority of my former colleagues don't want to be rubber stamps. They don't like what they're doing. They want to get to legislating. No, but, but, but he carries a big stick and he's been able to, until this time, identify any seat in the country, any Republican seat, and generate a primary opponent who will take you out. But that is ending. And so I think Republicans will migrate back to more familiar territory. Limited government, economic freedom. Things nobody believes really in. This tariff agenda, for example, this war, the way it's been conducted or negotiated, they don't agree with. So I think you're going to see them move back and the president will be a lame duck. He may be a more powerful lame duck than some because he'll still have a residual following, but that's coming to an end. So I'm more hopeful that we can get back to some semblance of what we Republicans used to stand for. Now I wish the Democrats would help us out a little more by instead of electing the Democrats, push people toward the middle here. There's a massive lane in the middle that if somebody will take, the other party will have to fight for it. But if Democrats continue to, and I know that's where some of the energy in the party is, we've seen it in the last couple of weeks, but for the most part, I hope the Democrats realize that they've got to occupy that middle ground. And if they do, Republicans will be forced to contest that as well.

[Charlie Sykes]

Tell me what you see for the future of the. Okay. The Aspen Ideas Festival is where those centrists are.

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[Charlie Sykes]

What do you see as the future? Because it's good that you're optimistic. I got to say I was, I was maybe one of the last holdouts of optimism at the Bulwark. And much of that has been stripped away by watching the behavior of Republicans because Trump is already a lame duck and a lot of the people that we think were in a position to stand up, they haven't. And I understand that you're in a position and I used to be in a position where I would hear and I would say, well, they don't really believe this but. But over time I got really worn down by the fact that I knew they didn't believe it and they didn't say anything. And so for me, watching you do it was actually a reminder to me at how many people didn't and isn't if character matters, which I know you believe that it does in office. To me, I have found it sort of disqualifying as a matter of character that they have refused to stand up for their Article 1 the institutions, but also just for the on the moral side to this. And, and so I guess I Wonder what, what do you think of the future of the Republican Party?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Well, I just know that anger and grievance are not a governing philosophy. Neither is populism. And at some point, it runs its course, and I think we're seeing the limits of it now. I think that's why you're seeing inflation and everything else, because the tariff agenda and the way we've. In this protectionism, we know that it doesn't work as Republicans. So I do think that we'll have to come back to what works, and that happens to be what most Republicans still really in their gut, believe in. That's my hope. That's what I believe, and I'm an optimist that way.

[Charlie Sykes]

So do you think, though, do you think J.D. vance is the future of the party?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

No, I don't. I don't. I think the one thing that gives me hope is that President Trump's imitators have not done well. If you look in Arizona, where I am, Arizona is still a red state. It's a red state, but we have a Democratic governor, two Democratic senators, Democrat attorney General, Democrat secretary of state, a lot of claps out there. And that is to the credit of Arizona's voters, because Republicans nominate people who try to imitate Trump. That's what we've been doing in the last couple of elections, and they lose and lose again. Kerry Lake a couple of times.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, you've had some fun ones out there.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

But, but, and I think I, I think, you know, J.D. vance is kind of in that category. He's trying to imitate the president, and it hasn't gone well. The president has had the ability to do it himself very successfully politically, but that hasn't transferred to others. And that's, that's what's giving me hope as well.

[Charlie Sykes]

Who do you think could lead the Republican Party in the direction that you're talking about?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Well, I mean, this is. We're still a ways out, but if you look at the two big ones right now, Marco Rubio is, I think it's likely going to be somebody that has at least one foot in the MAGA camp. But I think Marco is certainly, and I've worked with him a lot. I was on the Gang of Eight with him, and, and he's certainly, of the two front runners, somebody who will pivot more easily back to traditional conservatism. And he's in a difficult spot now. And I, you know, I have to swallow hard when I see some of the statements he makes and whatnot. But I think that he's one that can pivot backward.

[Charlie Sykes]

So just going to keep on this thread. And I wanted to have a little bit of a struggle session with you in front of an audience about this. I saw you do two things recently. One was you said if you lived in Texas, you would absolutely vote for James Talarico. And you were talking about character mattering, which I agree with you on wholeheartedly. But you also wrote an op ed endorsing Susan Collins in Maine. And I assume, and part of that was thinking that the Graham Platner is not somebody of good character.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

That was exactly it.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes. I mean, I read it. I have a question, because I struggle with this, too. I also don't think that Graham Platner says, I don't know Graham Platner, but I have, from what I've seen, you know, we've got, we've got some, there's some tough stuff there. Right. And here's if you believe, and I, I firmly lead this, that Donald Trump is an aspiring authoritarian, or not aspiring, he's doing it. He's doing the authoritarian stuff. He's ignoring Congress. And I think he needs to be stopped. How do you weigh the individual of endorsing somebody like Susan Collins who has not done anything, in my opinion, not done enough to stand up to Trump, even though she's had a moment here or there, but she's mostly been concerned, how do you deal with. And like, I share her concern, but I just, I'm not sure Trump has learned any lessons like how do you weigh that individual race? And I genuinely mean this because I've been working through this myself versus the imperative of sort of having a Senate that will stop Trump from what he's trying to do.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Well, I think as long as we as voters look at individual races and just say, I'm going to vote the partisan ticket no matter what, because we've got to get Republicans out of the Senate. Now, I like divided government. I think that's the best. If you're a limited government conservative, that's the best government. So I hope we have divided government coming up. But if you look at that Graham Platner race, my point was you do best as a party when you vote for character. There are a couple of examples of Republicans when we did it right. And one of the Times was in 2016 when Republicans nominated Roy Moore to take the seat that was vacated by the other senator, Jeff Sessions. And anyway, it turned out that Roy Moore was credibly accused of pursuing teenage girls. And some of my colleagues denounced their Endorsement. I actually wrote a check to his Democratic opponent, Doug Jones, and that was the right thing to do. Now, Doug Jones came in, he served two years, then was defeated. Republicans were back in. That's not the only time in the early 90s, George H.W. bush and several Republican senators, after David Duke was nominated to be Republican candidate for governor in Louisiana, said, no, we're going to vote for the Democrat. Now, the Democrat was Edwin Edwards, who was quite corrupt at that time. In fact, there were bumper stickers going around for Republicans saying, vote for the crook. It's important. But the point I'm making is that when Republicans stand for principle and stand for somebody with character, it inures to their benefit in other races as well. And Democrats, if Chuck Schumer and others would say, hey, as much as we want to defeat Susan Collins, it's not worth putting somebody with the character of this man who has a Nazi tattoo and whatever else it would inure to the benefit of Democrats later on. So I think we just ought to not look at one individual race and say that race is going to dictate everything. But we'd be better off if we look overall at character rather than policy. And a lot of policies I do not agree with James Tallarico on, but character trumps policy every day of the week. Policies can change, but character remains.

[Charlie Sykes]

Here's what I know. America would be a lot better off if there were 50 of you in there on the Republican side. You make me weep for a Republican Party. I used to know and love what you been doing in the intervening time you went and worked for Biden and you were in Turkey. Was that cool?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

You know, that was. I was nominated to be ambassador. It used to be a great tradition where presidents of one party would nominate at least or, yeah, appoint or nominate members of the other party to be a Cabinet member or certain ambassadorships. That's kind of fallen out of favor. But gratefully, Joe Biden picked one Republican and they asked if I would consider an ambassadorship. I said, as long as it's a consequential country. And they said Turkey. And I said, well, New Zealand's kind of consequential. A little easier than dealing with Erdogan. But no, it was an incredible honor to represent the country in Turkey. And I believe in the old Senator Vandenberg quote that politics should stop at the water's edge. And I represented a Democratic administration. I would have had a more difficult time representing some of the Biden policies on immigration or the border at home. But certainly I was comfortable there, and it was a great time. Russia invaded Ukraine right after we got there. Sweden and Finland wanted to get into NATO over Turkey's objection. So that occupied a lot of my time for three years. But it was just an incredible, incredible honor to represent the country.

[Charlie Sykes]

All right, last question. So, like I said, you still look great. Are you, like, going to get back in the game here or where are you doing?

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Well, the game right now is we've launched an institute of politics at Arizona State University, and I've founded that. And we have got some great people in the audience here who are supporting it. And it's great for the students at Arizona State University. Also doing some things with Utah, the World Trade Center, Utah, and doing some lecturing at BYU and speaking on college campuses, and it's fun.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, it's good to see you back out in the world, man. We've missed people like you. I'll tell you what. Thank you so much, guys.

[Senator Jeff Flake]

Senator Jeff Blake.