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- [00:00]
Lauren Egan
Mmm.
- [00:02]
Sarah Longwell
Oh.
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Unknown
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Not even a little.
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- [00:30]
Sarah Longwell
Hey, everybody. Sarah Longwell here, publisher of the Bulwark. And I'm joined by Lauren Egan, newsletter writer of the opposition. Lauren, what's up? How you doing?
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Lauren Egan
Hey, how's it going?
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Sarah Longwell
Okay. Another good newsletter this week because you're on.
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Unknown
You're just on my wavelength all the time.
- [00:46]
Sarah Longwell
Right. This is a Down with the Gerontocracy piece. It is about the idea that the Democrats are trying to get more young people into the party. But why don't you, why don't you set it up? Because I had a lot of thoughts reading this that I wanted to ask you about.
- [01:03]
Lauren Egan
Yeah. Well, what I think is really interesting, if you think back to the first Trump administration, the answer to that was, let's elect someone who's older. Let's go back to sort of like the old guard to get us through this moment. And now fast forward to the second Trump administration, and that is no longer how Democrats are feeling about things. And so we're really starting to see kind of a shift in the generational takeover. You're seeing a lot of retirements in Congress right now among the, like, 70, 80 year olds. And you're seeing a lot of people that are in their 40s or early 50s or maybe even their 30s kind of stepping up to the plate now, whether that's being elected by their colleagues to a leadership position on Capitol Hill, whether that's in Democratic primaries for some of these seats that members are retiring from. So I, I think that this is a big moment. Like, it's a big shift in how Democrats are thinking about this.
- [01:55]
Sarah Longwell
What do you think's driving the shift? Why do you think they've suddenly been like, we need to age this down just a bit, guys?
- [02:01]
Lauren Egan
I think a few things. One, you really can't underestimate the Biden factor in all of this. Like, I think Democrats really have some trauma from everything that happened in 2024. So there's a sense of like, we can't do that again, there are real risks when you just kind of let someone stay in office for forever and forever. And then the other part of it is three members have died in Congress so far this year. Three Democratic members. And that's a big deal. They're all in the House. And, you know, Republicans had a pretty narrow margin to begin with, and those three members, they passed away in the spring. It just got a little bit easier for Republicans to get their agenda through Capitol Hill. So I think that was a real wake up call on the Hill. Folks were kind of like, okay, you know, we really need to be honest with ourselves about what this means when you stay in office, beyond when you should probably be there. It's not just, you know, you know, it's great that, you know, you feel the calling to serve, that you like doing the job, et cetera, et cetera. But like, let's be practical about this. We are all going to die one day. And that, unfortunately, if you are a member of Congress, can have impacts and ramifications for every single person in this country.
- [03:11]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, look, I mean, it's not crazy or it's not unusual for there to be sort of like claw marks on the floor, out of Senate offices. The presidency, you know, these, these jobs, people seem to want to stay in them forever. But, you know, there's a couple other things that you mentioned in your piece that sort of, I think, give Democrats real pause now about some of the age related issues. And one of them was the death of rbg. I remember when that happened, it was like during the pandemic, I think it was definitely right before the election. And so Donald Trump in September, right.
- [03:47]
Unknown
A month out from an election, gets to nominate another Supreme Court justice because she passed away.
- [03:53]
Sarah Longwell
And Democrats have been begging her not to do this.
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Unknown
In a way that I think behind the scenes, a lot of Democrats had hoped Joe Biden wouldn't run again. The age problem has been catastrophic in.
- [04:03]
Sarah Longwell
A lot of ways. And this is, this goes to sort.
- [04:06]
Unknown
Of one of my most fundamental frustrations with Democrats because they talk a big game about the preservation of democracy.
- [04:14]
Sarah Longwell
And they're right to.
- [04:15]
Unknown
Donald Trump represents an existential threat to democracy. I agree with that. I believe it. It's the whole reason the bull work exists. The thing is, when you have an existential threat to democracy, you make choices.
- [04:27]
Sarah Longwell
Then that involve putting ego aside.
- [04:31]
Unknown
And I think that would lead a lot of people. It should have led Joe Biden not to run again despite the good result after 2022. It should have led Ruth Bader Ginsburg to step down earlier back when Barack Obama was sort of begging her to, before Donald Trump took over. And I do think that that impact has finally caught up with them. Right. And we also saw just, you know, high profile deaths of senators. California senator, whose name I am blanking on right now. Feinstein. Right. I mean, we have got to do something about the fact that people are just holding on, not just for electoral reasons, but for governing reasons. I mean, the, the knock on Joe Biden wasn't. I mean, part of it for me is that it set Donald Trump up for a comeback. But the other problem was one of effective governance. Right. Like, we just, you want people who are old enough to understand how things work, like, young enough to do things, to accomplish things, to be energetic in moving things forward. And so besides that ptsd, though, there's another thing I wanted to ask you about that, to me would seem like a motivating reason, which is a lot. And you mentioned this in your piece, and I think it's exactly right. A lot of these Democrats are from a different age in terms of communication, and so they don't know how to deal with the new media environment, the new social media environment, their office putting out press releases, that used to work.
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Sarah Longwell
Right.
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Unknown
And for somebody who's older, if you can just issue press releases, fine. But, like, the new media environment requires you to be engaged as a person. So how much is that sort of driving Democrats interest in younger legislators?
- [06:15]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. And, and some strategists that I spoke to for this story, they were kind of saying, you know, it was cute when Chuck Schumer a few years ago used to joke about how he used a flip phone. Right. Because that's his big thing. He, like, doesn't have a smartphone. He uses his flip phone to communicate. And now they're like, that's just political malpractice. Like, stop bragging about that. Yeah, like, stop bragging about it. Like, no one thinks it's funny anymore. Like, maybe it was charming a decade ago, but it's not anymore. So that, to me, kind of like really crystallized a lot of what's going on here. And simply the fact that, like, if you're, you know, someone Schumer's age or some of these older leaders, like, you just didn't grow up with a social media algorithm, and you're probably not even, like, really using a lot of these apps yourselves. And now that's where politics, a lot of politics is being done. And someone, someone else I spoke with mentioned, you know, Alyssa Slotkin is out there all the time. She's very, very public. She's a new senator. Ten years ago, people would have been like, hey, get in line, wait your turn. Don't go out there and, you know, be leading all the headlines and getting all this press attention. Like, there's plenty of people who've been here longer than you let them drive on this issue. But that just doesn't happen anymore because now the job just demands that you are everywhere, constantly trying to get as many eyeballs as you possibly can. And so this idea that you kind of like, wait your turn, Democrats are starting to shed a bit of that.
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Sarah Longwell
What about, let me just play devil's advocate on this for a second. You know, I think, and you say this in your piece too. You know Nancy Pelosi, right, she got gas queened up and down because people really respected during the Trump years that they had sort of a seasoned elder statesman who knew how to work the process. And so there is a case to be made oftentimes for experience and like deep in the trenches experience. And so. But I gotta, and I gotta say, you know, Hakeem Jeffries has been nowhere near as effective in opposing Trump as Nancy Pelosi was. So how are they thinking about balancing some of their best operators and people who know how to fundraise and things like that, that bring that experience? How do they balance that with wanting to get this new generation kind of plugged in and pushing things forward?
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Lauren Egan
I don't think anyone is sort of advocating that just because someone hits a certain age that they should, should be ousted.
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Unknown
And I'm advocating that.
- [08:41]
Sarah Longwell
I think there should be a 75, 75 year old age limit is what I believe there should be.
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Lauren Egan
Aside from like the, you know, maybe kind of like the David Hoggs in the Democratic Party. And even he was like, I'm not going after a Pelosi. But people like, there are people like in that camp that kind of think like, once you're a certain age, like, maybe you should go. But no one is trying to go after someone like a Bernie Sanders or a Pelosi. And there is a sense that like, you can be older and be effective. There are people are going to be running for the Senate who are already running for the Senate who are older, like Governor Cooper down in North Carolina. Democrats view him as their best possible shot at picking up that Senate seat. So, you know, everyone's kind of like getting on board and like, okay, this is who we've got. We're going to, we're Going to go for it. Just because you are older does not necessarily mean that you can't be effective. So I think they're trying to strike a balance. And also, too, you know, a lot of strategists were like, if we're just out here saying everyone who's 75, as Sarah says, should go, like, we're just gonna lose some people, and we want this to sort of happen more organically, not like we have, like, knives out for people and then. And then lose some people sort of in the process.
- [09:54]
Sarah Longwell
Is that. Is that the cautionary tale of the David Hogue approach? Which, to be fair, I. I didn't agree with in large part because I sort of thought it was political malpractice to just be primary people who are in safe seats in this moment. Like, there is a balance totally between sort of running people out of town who are in safe seats and who hold maybe key positions, are good fundraisers, whatever, and getting in a new generation that shows a kind of energy and enthusiasm. But one thing I wanted to ask you about, and this wasn't really discussed in your piece, but I'm interested in what you think about it. So I think some of the angst around the younger folks. So aoc, for example, she was. She was kept out of a key position by one of the members who passed away. Like, they elected somebody who had a terminal form of cancer over letting AOC in there. Because I think there's a sense among Democrats that some of the new blood also brings, like Mom, Donnie, aoc, Jasmine Crockett. They also bring a more progressive style of politics. Did anybody talk about, though? Because my pushback to that would be like, hey, actually a bunch of your moderates are also young, energetic folks. But, like, was there any kind of.
- [11:18]
Unknown
Talk about interesting who the young people are?
- [11:20]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, there was. And. And interestingly, it. It's really, you know, kind of comes from all different factions of the party. I do think that how Democrats view this moment is not so much as, like, moderate versus progressive. It really is like, do you have the fight or not in you? And so they point to people like Conor Lamb, who obviously, you know, lost that primary, but those kinds of folks that they feel like could be leaders going forward in the party. It's not just the progressives, even though I think they tend to raise the most money sometimes. Obviously, AOC is a prolific fundraiser or get, you know, kind of the biggest headlines, but someone like Slotkin does not fall in that progressive camp. And she's made very clear that she views this moment, not as like left versus right or, sorry, like moderate versus progressive, but as whether or not you think this is an existential moment or not. And I think most of the younger members of Congress fall into that bucket of yes, this is an existential moment and we should all act like it.
- [12:23]
Sarah Longwell
And do you feel like there's something temperamentally different about the younger people? I mean, one of the things that you think about with the older folks is they still think sometimes that we're living in a normal political situation. And I think this is one of the reasons that a guy like Chuck Schumer just doesn't seem right for the moment. Like, it seems like they don't understand at what time it is, as the kids say, but like they don't understand the threat that we're under. And look, I'm a big norms person and I, I think experience is really valuable in these situations. I do think that when you have such a shift in what the moment demands of our politics, that believing that things are Republicans are going to still operate in a way that you were used to them operating in good faith for the last, you know, 40 years, that does not prepare you to deal with Nancy Mace and with Marjorie Taylor Greene and with Donald Trump and just sort of the new right wing media ecosystem. I mean, my biggest issue with the Gerontocracy is that I just think there's too many people who live in the past and think that the Republicans, what they tell them behind the scenes or whatever, that that's the truth or that they can trust them or what. Like it's just an old way of thinking about the moment.
- [13:46]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I think that's totally true. And it's something I hear from staffers on Capitol Hill all the time that the, the older generation of, of lawmakers totally thinks that this is like the same Republican Party as it was 20, 30 years ago. And they think that or they operate in a way that they think it's just going to go back to that in a few years once Trump is no longer in office. I think the younger generation is like, okay, this, this is a turning point in American democracy and there's no guarantee, in fact, when Trump does leave office, like, Trumpism has not been defeated. Trumpism is not leaving with him. They, there is a sense that our politics have dramatically changed and shifted and they are all adjusting to that. But it's just kind of this clash with like the younger people on the Hill and the older folks who I think just kind of feel like it's business as usual. That the Trump era is just something to be endured and we just have to get to the other side. Whereas the younger crop of folks on Capitol Hill are like, no, like, this is. This is all out war and we might not make it in one piece to the other side.
- [14:53]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, it's a new moment that requires new thinking and a new level of. Of, I think, being bold and, and being able to communicate. And so I thought it was. And I. I guess I was really struck by the idea that you think it's happening organically, because I did watch the David Hogue thing and think this isn't the right way to do this, but it's sort of the right point on some level. Like, it's the right. And there was a lot of reasons why, you know, he had a PAC while he was still institutional and he was at the dnc. So there were reasons that. That I think didn't make a lot of sense, but that the idea of how do we get these older sort of entrenched people to understand that it's a new moment? And is there somebody that you see that's doing that work internally? Like, when you say it's happening organically, is that really organically, or is there something going on, some kind of organizational push? Is it from donors, is it from outside groups to say, guys, we need the new blood?
- [16:00]
Lauren Egan
I don't think that there is someone going around knocking on doors on Capitol Hill, like, lobbying for this. But I think all these people, like, can see the writing on the wall. They. They're reading the room and they're seeing that basically since January, the party has just. Since Biden lost, essentially, the party's just been absorbed in this conversation about the need for younger leaders. So part of it is for sure, some of these folks are just, like, don't want to get involved or risk having a primary challenge. They see that voters want new folks in office and to their credit, are deciding that this is the time to go. I do think that, you know, we should give them credit for that. But, yeah, there are groups out there that, you know, some of the activist organizations that are being pretty vocal about how they want younger leadership. There's groups like Run for Something, which I mentioned in the piece, that's a really good job at sort of building up this bench of younger Democrats and making known that they are there and that they are ready to step into office. So I think all of that combined. And then I would say, you know, going back to the RBG conversation, it's interesting to me that RBG happened. And then fast forward to 2024. Democrats didn't do anything to ask Biden or to really get Biden to step down until the debate moment. So I do think that, like, the lesson wasn't totally learned from rbg. I think it really took the Biden moment for that to just sort of sink into the party. So I think that there's a sense now that, like, it should no longer be viewed as impolite to be honest about the realities of aging, and people are just being more frank and having more honest conversations about that. And I think that's sort of like seeped in to the DNA on Capitol Hill.
- [17:47]
Sarah Longwell
Love that. Glad to hear it. Lauren. Another great newsletter from you.