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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
Sam Stein
All right. Hey, everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark here. My pal Lauren Egan, who is the author of the opposition newsletter. This is a Bulwark Takes podcast. We're going to start saying that so people know what they're listening to, I guess. Lauren, we're going to talk about your newsletter, but first, how you doing? It's been a while.
- [01:19]
Lauren Egan
I'm doing well. How are you doing?
- [01:21]
Sam Stein
It was great seeing you in the office. Lauren came with the dc. I know, I know. We gotta do that more often. I know, like removed. You're down in Nashville and I'm up here. I feel like we, you know, should.
- [01:32]
Lauren Egan
Have thought, yeah, okay, you can come down here anytime.
- [01:36]
Sam Stein
I could come there. You didn't see some so enthused about getting together more often. Lauren's writing about. How would we describe this? A little bit of Texas Senate primary, A little bit of like how to make kind of moderate people go viral online and the trickiness around that.
- [01:54]
Let's start with that. So your newsletter is kind of about this interesting phenomenon where there's a bunch of operatives who really want these centrist minded, non political people who don't really, you know, do the bells and whistles to figure out how to do the online conversation. And the results have been what I'D say mix is probably being too generous. Yeah.
- [02:17]
Lauren Egan
But I think early, you, you suggested that we do a subject line that was like, it's not working. I don't think we're there yet. Like, it's early.
- [02:26]
Sam Stein
You're revealing all the.
- [02:28]
Lauren Egan
That's fine. We went with a different subject line.
- [02:33]
Like, you know what I mean? Like, we're not at primaries yet.
- [02:36]
Rocket Money Narrator
I don't know.
- [02:36]
Lauren Egan
I'm not like ready to be like, it's not working. They're trying to figure it out, but I think it's hard.
- [02:39]
Sam Stein
What are they trying to do? Yeah, why don't you just talk about what they're trying to do here?
- [02:44]
Lauren Egan
There's a recognition that Democrats have to figure out how to navigate the attention economy. It's something that Trump and Republicans have been really good at for a really long time and Democrats have frankly just kind of sucked at it. Aside from a few people. Right. Like an AOC or more recently, Mamdani, These kinds of folks who tend to be more from the progressive flank of the party are really good at it. They're good at making viral content. It is not a natural thing for more like centrist, moderate minded candidates who are just like not coming out with a super, like, exciting new policy like freeze the rent, something that's going to naturally kind of take off online. And so the challenge is how do you make these kinds of candidates that are the, they call them the majority makers, which is fair. I think these are the kinds of people where if Democrats are going to win the House or win the Senate, they have to win these Trump districts. So how do you make those kinds of candidates really pop? And it's hard. And some of the strategies that they've had is, okay, well, can we find moderate or centrist candidates that just have really compelling backstories, like something in their biography is going to really resonate with their district, help them get some media attention? Or can we find people that are really kind of heterodox on some issues and aren't afraid of punching Democratic, the rest of the Democratic Party in the face and that's how they're going to kind of break out online and get some attention?
- [04:00]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I guess the question is how do you go viral? Right. Like, doesn't that it comes down to that or I guess what are the ingredients for at least getting the likelihood that you go viral to be better? And I don't know, is the idea that you have to be a lefty just a prerequisite for being viral?
- [04:18]
Lauren Egan
I think that's part of the concern because, I mean, I can't really think of. I mean, there are some examples. Like I wouldn't call Ruben Gallego a lefty, but he's good at.
- [04:31]
Not at all, but he's good at like sitting there and you know, talking about his big ass truck or whatever. And that gets a lot of clicks and people engage with that. So there are pockets of examples. But I think it just is like a better fit for some of the more progressives and leftists in the party.
- [04:51]
Sam Stein
And I'm wondering a little bit if like, if, if maybe virality is the wrong way to think about it. Like maybe the idea is not just to have moments where you're grabbing the attention, but to be more, more ubiquitous and more conversant in the online conversation. Like, I mean, Mamdani is an interesting example. He definitely had moments that definitely went viral. But his, he was sort of just all over the map, right? Like he was on every platform. He was, you know, you just felt like you, you know, he was there. I guess I'm going back a little bit here, but like Beto o', Rourke, when he was running for Senate, he was, you know, he def. He was live streaming everything. I don't know, I don't know what, what the right formula is. But it gets back to your point about the problem these people have, which is that they're not, you know, who in their real life is going to be practicing these traits. Right. Unless you're going from being a streamer to being a politician. It's odd to be, you know, doing stuff to make yourself seem cool or garb attention online.
- [05:53]
Lauren Egan
Yeah. And I talked to Connor Lam about this a few months ago and my conversation with him just is always in my head because he talk about this is shortly after mom Donnie won the primary. So this is back over the summer. But he was like, yeah, I was doing all the right things. When I was running in the Pennsylvania primary for a senate against Fetterman, he was like, I was doing all the right things. I was talking to voters. I thought I was checking all the boxes, but I wasn't recording all of it. So like people didn't know. And he was like, my lesson, my takeaway is that like I guess I just have to like constantly record all the things that I'm doing. To your point, like it's like this aspect of like being ubiquitous and it's like he's like, I just feel weird though, like picking up camera and like doing a selfie style video. Like that doesn't come naturally to sort of like my style of politics.
- [06:39]
Sam Stein
No, it's inherently weird. It's really odd.
- [06:41]
Lauren Egan
You don't love doing it.
- [06:44]
You don't love recording selfie videos.
- [06:47]
Sam Stein
I think that. I think you're making a dig at me, but I'm gonna ignore that.
- [06:54]
This is our relationship here. All right, so that brings us to Texas, because this is the prism through which you told the story, which is. Well, why don't you tell the story? Because it's kind of fascinating. Bulwark Takes is sponsored by ORA Frames. I've got a bit of a holiday gift giving pattern. I tell myself this year it's going to be different, and then I will panic at the last minute because I forgot to get the more thoughtful gift and I'll just buy a gift card. Well, this year I skipped the panic and I gave an Aura frame. They are an absolute hit among people at the Bulwark. And I am jealous of Sarah Longwell every time I go into her office because I see that frame right there. It looks so good. You can upload unlimited free photos and video. Just download the Aura app and connect to WI fi. You can preload photos before chips. Keep adding from anywhere, anytime. You can share photos and videos effortlessly straight from your phone all year long. It's perfect for sending grandparents their ideal gift, which is pictures of their grandkids. Every frame also comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting Oraframes.com to get $35 off or as best selling Carver matte frames. It was named number one by wirecutter. Use the code. Use the promo code bulwarktakes at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code bulwarktakes. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out pretty fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at the checkout.
- [08:22]
Lauren Egan
So over the summer, there was this man named Terry Virt who was a former NASA astronaut. On paper seemed great. More. More of a moderate, definitely. I would say more probably on paper, in line with where, like, the average Texas voter is. So he announced that he's going to run for Senate in Texas in the Democratic primary. He doesn't really take off. He's kind of awkward.
- [08:45]
Sam Stein
Is that an astronaut pun?
- [08:47]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, it was. Did you get it? You picked up on it?
- [08:49]
Sam Stein
Okay, I took it out of the text, but I'll allow it here.
- [08:52]
Lauren Egan
Yeah. What the hell? Come on.
- [08:55]
I thought we weren't supposed to, you know, show behind the scenes, but okay, you started it. Okay. So he doesn't really take off. His social media game is like pretty mad, actually. That's kind of generous to him. It's a little uncomfortable and awkward. He does the whole like direct to cameras. I don't know, I mean, maybe I'm being like kind of mean to him. He just looks like, you know, you know, it's, it's, it's not a like very, it's not compelling the content he's putting out and he doesn't really connect with voters. And this is sort of around the time when James Talarico is getting in the race at this point. He's, you know, gone on Joe Rogan. We've all, most of us have seen his, his TikTok videos. He's super viral. And Terry Vertz ends up dropping out and running for a House seat instead. And obviously then this week Colin Allred drops out just as Jasmine Crockett announces that she's also getting in. So I think it's just kind of like perfect storm of all the more moderate minded candidates who are not that great online, who aren't like super good at going viral, are no longer in the Texas Senate race.
- [10:02]
Sam Stein
And the ones who are good are super viral.
- [10:05]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, someone used the term digital darlings to describe them to me, which, yeah.
- [10:10]
Sam Stein
I think that's right. I mean, they're very. And you look, it's not, I don't know how old Colin Allred is, so I shouldn't speak too in two broad strokes. But it's not, you know, Talarico and Crockett are both young. Right. Like they're of this age. They came up through this new media landscape, so it makes some sense. I don't want to pay me too broad a brush, I suppose. Like I've seen a lot of people point out that Jasmine Crockett is while, you know, a very, you know, provocative congresswoman and she definitely can throw punches and she's made a name for herself as a fighter. She's not a down the line lefty. So it's not like her, her ability to communicate online and get attention and navigate the attention comment isn't necessarily because she's embraced Medicare for All. In fact, I don't even know if she has.
- [10:59]
It's because she's a bit of a bomb thrower. And Talarico is totally different. He's like the opposite of a bomb thrower, but he's very conversant. And he has these, you know, speech that he gives around, like, Texas education policy and privatization of schools that manage to really take off and get in your algorithmic feeds. So there's different ways of going viral. Right. Like, it's not just, oh, you have to be super lefty. It's these people have some sort of recognition of the formula you need to use to seem authentic online.
- [11:34]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily just that you have to be a lefty, but they both know it definitely helps. And, I mean, Crockett's whole thing is, like, a lot of what's gotten her attention and kind of. I mean, people say this in sort of a condescending way, but I do think it's an, like, descriptive way to sort of describe it. Is that, like, it's the msnbc, like, wine moms that love Crockett. Like, she's really good at picking a fight with trustee. She does, and there is a huge audience for that, and that's what she's tapped into. But, yeah, I think the point about, like, she's certainly not like, the progressive left's dream of what type of candidate they want to be running.
- [12:15]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I'm not totally sure I. I know the consensus is now, well, she's just gonna, you know, lap tal Rico and win the nomination.
- [12:22]
Lauren Egan
I don't think that's true. I think this is.
- [12:23]
Sam Stein
I don't think that's true fairly.
- [12:25]
Lauren Egan
Like, I would go ahead. I would say she's favored right now, but, I mean, more name id. Like, I think that's. I think she can probably raise. I mean, I'm curious to see, like, what these first few days of fundraising look like for her, but I think she can raise nationwide, probably more than he can.
- [12:47]
But I don't know the first. Like, what. What's today, Wednesday, Thursday. The first few days of her. Thanks. The first few days of her campaign have been a little. She's had some stumbles, you know, Like, I don't know how primary voters in Texas are going to respond to her getting up there and saying, I don't need to win. I don't need to win over any Republicans. How will you make voters who previously voted for Trump, particularly given that you have been an outspoken critic and he has inserted himself. Just take your campaign video as is. He has inserted himself at every turn when it comes to your commentary. How will you convert those who are supportive of him to voters for you?
- [13:32]
Yeah, I don't know that we'll necessarily convert all of Trump's supporters. That's not our. Do you need to. Our goal is to definitely talk to people. No, we don't. We don't need to. Like, these ultimately are people that live in a red state that are somewhat tuned into the reality that in order to win, probably do, you probably should convert some Republican voters.
- [13:52]
Sam Stein
It would help even if you don't think you need to maybe make an effort. There's the other element of this, which came at the very end of the piece, which I want to play around with, which is from Matt Bennett of Third Way, which is like questioning the utility of being ubiquitous on the Internet. And, you know, there are some downsides to having a lengthy Internet trail and saying things online all the time. And I don't think that should go unnoticed.
- [14:18]
Lauren Egan
Right, Totally. The example he pointed to was the Tennessee special race, which I think is an excellent example.
- [14:29]
The progressive candidate that won the primary had this long, long record of, like. I think she had a podcast for a minute, had just been posting online for forever, including a lot of stuff in the summer of 2020 that all came back to bite her in the ass when she got to the general. And I'm not saying, like, we've. We've all kind of had this conversation. What, A more moderate. Can it have one? Maybe. I don't know. But that certainly wasn't helpful.
- [14:56]
Sam Stein
No, it didn't help. I guess there's a distinction between past, you know, your archival online footage and your ability to be, you know, a conversant online candidate in the. In the. In the moment.
- [15:09]
Lauren Egan
Yeah.
- [15:10]
Sam Stein
And. And I think that's. That's the distinction. I would just say in response to Matt. All right. Any other thoughts on this? I mean, I guess we're all doomed. Anyone who's ever done, like, the amount of online posting you and I have done are probably never going to run for office. Office, basically.
- [15:24]
Lauren Egan
Don't worry.
- [15:25]
Sam Stein
Or maybe we will, because.
- [15:28]
You did. Smart.
- [15:29]
Lauren Egan
That's true. I know. I mean, it still exists somewhere. Please, no one.
- [15:32]
Sam Stein
Yeah, the Internet's. The Internet's forever. All right. Any last thoughts before I let you go?
- [15:37]
Lauren Egan
No, I think the main thing is just I don't think the Senate to this Texas primary is a foregone conclusion.
- [15:44]
Sam Stein
We shall see. I mean, it's not like Talarico can't navigate the online conversation. He's very deft at that. It's a question of, you know, how far he gets pulled in that direction of Crockett. So. We shall see. Lauren, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Everyone should be subscribing to our newsletter already. It's the opposition. It's great. If you want to know what the hell's going on with the Democratic Party, frankly, folks like that is one of the few newsletters that really is going to get you the truth. You should subscribe to the Bulwark, too. And the Bulwark takes. Thank you much. Talk to you soon. Take care, Lauren.
- [16:18]
Lauren Egan
Bye.