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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I'm joined by two colleagues, Lauren Egan, Jonathan Cohn. I didn't list them in any order based on my appreciation for them.
- [00:09]
Lauren Egan
Yes, you did.
- [00:11]
Sam Stein
Reverse appreciation for them. We're going to be talking about, we're going to be talking about Democrats specifically, what we think are three distinct ways that the parties decided to take on Donald Trump. We're going to get into all of that in a bit. But before we do public service announcement, you would be wise, very wise, to subscribe to our YouTube feed. A lot of good stuff here. Get it, make sure you have it. Subscribe to the feed. Thank you very much. All right, Jonathan, going to start with you because you wrote the piece over the the weekend. Your basic, the premise of your piece was that there's two models that Michigan Democrats specifically are employing. We're going to get to another Midwestern politician in a second. But there's two models that Democrats are employing when it comes to or deploying, I should say, when it comes to Donald Trump. There's the Gresham Whitmer model and then there's Alyssa Slotkin model. And very briefly, as briefly as cone can get.
- [01:10]
Jonathan Cohn
You, how you've been looking at the reader comment I've edited.
- [01:13]
Sam Stein
Well, I've edited you for several years prior to you coming to the Bulwark. So I know. But how do you describe those models.
- [01:20]
Jonathan Cohn
The Whitmer model as it has emerged? Because, you know, everyone remembers Gretchen Whitmer from the Fight Like Hell by PAC was fighting with, you know, Trump and Covid, you know, after Trump got elected, her model was, look, he's the president. We, the state of Michigan are depend on working with the federal government. So I'm going to work with the federal government. And her model has been, you know, she's been to Washington a number of times. She's lobbied him directly on matters that she thinks are important. Those include there was a big air base here and its future was in doubt. She lobbied hard to have an extra squadron brought there to replace a retiring squadron. It's a big economic matter for that part of Michigan that was awarded in the process of lobbying. She ended up in the Oval Office in a now famous, you know, picture where she was like, don't, you know, don't take my picture. And you know, they were, Trump was in that Air Force base last week and she was there. And so a lot of pictures of her standing next to Trump. She has, you know, that's, it's a Less adversarial, I would say. You know, trying to sort of.
- [02:24]
Sam Stein
That's one model. Then there's the Slotkin model.
- [02:26]
Jonathan Cohn
Yeah. So Slotkin, who, you know, also kind of a bipartisan, you know, very much presents herself as a bipartisan senator who, you know, appeals to Republicans as well as Democrats, really, recently has kind of turned up the volume on her attacks on Trump. And I saw her give a speech a couple weeks ago here in Michigan, and it was notable to me how adversarial was, and especially on the topic of tariffs, where her line was, sometimes tariffs work. And if they're part of a economic strategy. Sure. Which actually is something Whitmer has said, but it was couched as a. Like, you gotta do it. Right. And the way Trump is doing it, he's so unpredictable, and it's all over the place, and it's rude, ruining our relationships, our allies, and just. It was a very. It was a very direct, harsh attack. And she very much was making that point in her speech, like, we Democrats need to come on stronger, need to be more aggressive at sort of prosecuting the case against Trump. So that's really the difference, you know, that sort of vocal. I'm gonna go after Trump, I'm gonna attack him, or I'm gonna be. I'm gonna work with them where I have to, because my state depends on it.
- [03:34]
Sam Stein
Right. All right. Now, there's a third model, Lauren. I'm not sure how we've dubbed this, but we're going to call it the JB Pritzker model. Which is what?
- [03:43]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I think it's pretty similar to the Slotkin model. No, no. Why?
- [03:48]
Sam Stein
Just. Just. It's just go through. Go for the throat.
- [03:51]
Lauren Egan
Yeah. Just to be really aggressive. Right. To just be out there, like, shitting on Trump. Right. But that's. That's, like. That's kind of her personality, too. But, yeah, it's. It's to go at Trump for everything, all the time, constantly. And I think there's a few governors that fall into that camp. It's like Pritzker, Tim Walls has been doing that. Who else can you think of? Like, Josh Shapiro has been doing that, too. And I mean, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's been pretty aggressive.
- [04:19]
Sam Stein
I'll give. I'll give him that.
- [04:21]
Lauren Egan
But I mean, they're also. All. Probably have, like, an eye towards their own.
- [04:26]
Jonathan Cohn
Yeah.
- [04:27]
Lauren Egan
But so does Whitburn, too.
- [04:28]
Sam Stein
Well, no, Whitmer's term limited. So. So here's my. Here's my thinking about this. These are all three politicians who have national profiles. I'm talking about Whitmer, Slotkin. She did deliver the State of the Union response. And Pritzker, obviously, they all have national profiles, all kind of adopting different models here to a degree. Whitmer and I think Con, you mentioned this piece, or at least we talked about it, which is Whitmer's from a state where it's, you know, it's a divided government, whereas Pritzker is not. Whitmer may have a different view of her political future than Pritzker, who clearly has an eye in the White House. But are there any other reasons that you guys suspect to explain why they're adopting different approaches beyond those two?
- [05:11]
Jonathan Cohn
You know, I will say this is, you know, having covered Whitmer specifically over the years, she is kind of in her bones, like this bipartisan, we should all get along and find ways to work, even if we're enemies. That's actually a pretty big part of her identity, for better or worse, depending on your, you know, perspective. You know, her dad was a Republican, her mom was a Democrat. She always talks about that. So I do think some of it is personal style. I think some of it is her, her political calculation being in a divided state that voted for Trump. You know, I think she's very aware of the fact that she's got a lot of constituents who like Trump, and on issues like trade, immigration, you know, I think she's very conscious of that. So I think that's her personality, both in terms of what she believes in and how she reads the political landscape.
- [05:58]
Sam Stein
And, Lauren, the other thing is how much flexibility do they have with their own voters on this? And that's something that I think is kind of like an existential question for Democrats. Like, even today, we're. We're taping this on Monday. Muriel Browser, mayor of D.C. is with Trump in the Oval Office. She's there because they're announcing the NFL draft is going to be in D.C. in 2027. I'm struck by the fact that Trump has been fairly nasty towards her over the years. They just signed a bill. The House did. They passed it, in fact, stripping a billion dollars from the city budget. You know, they've had a really adversarial relationship, but this year she's decided, well, I gotta, you know, there's tangible benefits to be had if I actually can talk to the president and build a relationship with him.
- [06:45]
Jonathan Cohn
He.
- [06:46]
Sam Stein
The White House reportedly wants to get that billion dollars back to the D.C. budget. Now he's got this NFL draft thing. So. So, you know, she's going to be fine. But I am kind of curious, like, do Democratic voters recognize the distinctions and the nuances that Jonathan's writing about?
- [07:00]
Lauren Egan
I think, for the most part, no. Like, we keep hearing from a lot of these. Not. Not. Right. I think we keep hearing from a lot of these voters that they want their, their elected leaders to fight for them, whatever that may look like. And that, that really is, I think, like a style thing that people just be.
- [07:17]
Sam Stein
Could that just be like, the base of the base? Right. Like, the loudest people who are like.
- [07:20]
Lauren Egan
Sure. It's like the people that are online start complaining about it. Yeah, but, like, I don't know, you have to be like, really, like, read into sort of like the latest, like, policy negotiations or conversations to also know that, like, there's a reason that she might want to be showing up to, to the White House today. But I think that, like, to your. That your point, like, cuts kind of cuts both ways. But yeah, I think this is like, I don't know, like some Democrats, when we were talking about Whitmer, I think there was a frustration that, that, you know, they get where she was coming from. They get it. You want to get tangible results. But I think there was also this sense that, like, okay, but what's good for Michigan is also need to look big picture, like, legitimizing Trump. Legitimizing Trumpism in the Republican Party long term isn't good for Michigan either. And so there's, I think there was some frustration in terms of, like, how you define, like, what's good for your constituents in this moment that I think is pretty interesting, like, debate that's playing out in the party.
- [08:12]
Sam Stein
I mean, Conway, how does that play out in Michigan? Because Whitmer's not running again, but there is an open Senate Democratic primary. And so, you know, I feel like there might be a way in which her approach to Trump might be a kind of dividing issue in that primary itself.
- [08:30]
Jonathan Cohn
You would assume so. Right. I mean, it's something that didn't make it into my story because there wasn't space. What, you know, one of the people, one of the, you know, Dana Nestle, who's our attorney general here, also very high profile, quite openly critical. I mean, shouldn't mention Governor Whitmer by name, but has been sort of subtweeting Whitmer for the last few months saying, you know, I don't want to legitimize Trump in any way I can. And, you know, the Senate field now for the open Senate seat, it's going to have Mallory Mauro, who's, Who's pretty progressive, Abdul El Said, who's really progressive and who had challenged Whitmer in 2018 for the Democratic nomination, that she eventually won and gave her a good run for the money. And then Haley Stevens, who's more of a kind of establishment type. But I, you know, so, you know, this is the dynamic here is, you know, you were saying, is it just the online people? Is it just the base? And I suspect, to some extent, sure, I do think that's true. I think the, the, the anger at Whitmer for, like, you know, cozying up to Trump is, you know, disproportionately coming from people who are very invested right now. Flip side is you're in a Democratic primary. They do have probably a little outside influence that eventually you do have to get to the general election. I'm sure if I, you know, you had Gretchen Whitmer here, she would say, yeah, but the people you actually need to win the general election, they're the ones who are going to appreciate the fact that even though they know I hate Trump, I got jobs. Yeah. You know, and so, you know that it's a dilemma.
- [09:55]
Sam Stein
Well, okay, but hold on. There's the. So that. Yes, but there is. I'm just going to throw this out as the devil's advocate. And, Lauren, you can take it and con. You can take it, but, like, the flip side is maybe you can stand up to Trump and get stuff done. And I guess the model here is Janet Mills. So the backstory here is Janet Mills, governor of Maine, kind of famously stood up to Trump during a meeting early in his administration over trans athletes interstate. I think there's like a handful maybe, and they want all trans athletes banned. Mill says it's a state issue, we'll deal with it however we want. And then Trump, of course, in a classic bit of fit, decided he was just going to, like, pull supplemental, you know, SNAP benefits, child nutrition from the state of Maine. And then Maine sued, and then over the weekend, the suit was resolved, and basically Maine won. Mills is quoted as telling a paper, quote, it's good to feel a victory like this. We took him to court and we won, and that's it. I mean, she stood up, she won. She, you know, she didn't, you know, feel the need to stand with him at the Oval officer at some event to make sure that everything went well. She, she, she fought the fight. Now, Janet Mills doesn't have a political future, and Gretchen Whitmer might. But is that not another Model to showcase.
- [11:14]
Lauren Egan
Yes. But I think it's also. It's risky business, you know?
- [11:18]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [11:19]
Lauren Egan
That might not. They might not have. Like, we don't know how that court case could have gone or, like.
- [11:24]
Sam Stein
Well, the fact that they settled suggests we know where it was going.
- [11:28]
Lauren Egan
Sure, sure. I'm saying, like, like, insert another issue, like, whatever the next thing might be from Trump. Right. Like this. Now that he knows they are going to have to settle for something like this, like, what would he try to do next time? So I think you get why someone like Whitmer or other governors are fearful of that and want to be sensitive to that. Like, it's great that this worked out for Maine, but that's not necessarily going to be the case every single time for every single governor on every single issue.
- [11:53]
Sam Stein
I mean, the flip side is Gavin Newsom has not gotten disaster relief for California, for the wildfires, despite, you know, doing.
- [12:00]
Lauren Egan
Despite being Gavinism and being kind of all over the map on things. So he's hard to put it in a box.
- [12:05]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I don't really. He jumps between the boxes.
- [12:07]
Jonathan Cohn
He can't decide.
- [12:09]
Sam Stein
Cohen, any last thoughts on this?
- [12:11]
Jonathan Cohn
Yeah, I just say, I mean, I, you know, I think it's a genuinely tough call, and that's why I write about policy now, politics, because I'm not. I'm not the strategist here. You know, I can see it both ways. Yeah, I know. Great tv, right?
- [12:22]
Sam Stein
No, I mean, it's a very profound.
- [12:24]
Lauren Egan
That's true, though.
- [12:25]
Sam Stein
Very profound. I think it's true. I mean, it honestly is true. And I think people who try to deal in absolutes on this issue, I mean, look, Gretchen Whitmer got a lot of stuff done now. There was. There was a lot of humiliation that came with it. That was the price tag. And she's going to be, you know, she. She may have risked a fair bit of her political future, but she did get stuff done. I think the Slotkin model probably is the best one, to be honest. I feel like strategic engagement on the Trump wars, where you feel good about it, is probably the smartest thing to do, but who knows? She's not in the governor's seat, so she doesn't have the same responsibilities.
- [13:01]
Jonathan Cohn
Yeah, I was just going to say there. And there is more. I mean, we. We got to wind up. You're thinking like presidential 20, 28 contenders. We got a ways to go. There's gonna be more issues. So, you know, let's see. Let's see how this plays out. You know, maybe. Yeah, that's true Medicaid cuts, you know, that she ends up coming out fight. You know, if you're Whitmer or any of these people and you know, you have a mix of times when you can say, I did fight here, I didn't fight there, maybe that makes a difference.
- [13:22]
Sam Stein
I think we're sort of colored. Yes. And I think we're just sort of colored by what happens in these kind of iconic moments. Right. Like you, you remembered like Charlie Crist hugging Obama when he deplaned and you know, Chris Christie after Hurricane Sandy. Like those things did matter materially in a very sort of superficial sense, but in a real political sense, too. And so Whitmer with the folder in front of her I think is going to be one of those iconic moments. But then again, you know, Trump gives you plenty of fodder. So we shall see. All right, Lauren, Jonathan, thank you. So really appreciate it. Thank you guys for watching on the tube. As always, subscribe to the feed and we will catch you later.