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[00:00]
A
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Bulwark Takes. I'm Sonny Bunch. I'm joined today by Bill Kristol. We're going to be talking about one of the most, one of the most outrageous things that has happened in the Trump administration. I think, look, there's all sorts of corruption, petty and otherwise. And you know, we can talk about demolishing the White House, etc. But this is a case where Bill, the White House has taken, has used the force of law to try and persecute somebody for their own mistakes, for their own, for their own misdeeds, lied about it, lied about the person, lied about what happened and, and used the power of the state against a guy. Right. We're talking, of course, about the reflecting pool. David Hearn, who is an Olympic canoeist, was arrested for vandalism, charged with felony vandalism because he was supposedly destroying the, the great beautiful sealant on the reflecting pool that had turned it, you know, the lovely shade of blue that Trump wanted. And, you know, this case goes through the courts and then late Friday night, Friday night news dump giro goes out there is like, oh, by the way, actually, it wasn't vandalism at all. The, the whole thing is, has been botched from the start. It's actually the Department of Interior's fault. And we, we gonna, we're not gonna prosecute the guy. We want him to be set free. I, I find this all incredibly outrageous and frustrating, Bill, but I think you are in an even darker place than me at this point.
[01:25]
B
Well, just. It shows how willing they all are to lie. From Trump on down to the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Burgum, who was, so far as one knew before the Trump administration was a pretty standard issue Republican governor, but not a congenital liar. But people under Burgum, it's not like Doug Burgum personally did all this stuff, transmitted all this stuff from Interior to Justice. And it's not like Jeanine Pirro was the only person in justice to accept or pretend to accept what Interior did. They had FBI agents, remember park police out, out looking at the place, looking at the reflecting pool. So the degree to which the culture of lying or the pressure to lie and exceeding to the pressure to lie has just permeated through the Trump administration and down the ranks, I find ominous. In this case, it didn't work. And that's good. One other point I'll make just on the slightly more ominous side, though, is, I mean, he got off the unjustly accused innocent man. He got off partly because he got pro Bono legal help from very good attorneys. I actually am on the board of the Democracy Defenders Fund, so I'm a little biased, but Norm Eisen REPRESENTATIVE in court Also the Washington Litigation Group, another group that I've been slightly involved in helping get some funding to nonprofits. So they get to use taxpayer money to prosecute someone unjustly. And the opposition, if I can put it that way, has to raise money, which they did, but I mean, from donors and stuff, to fight back. And obviously it's an unequal, that's an unequal fight and it means that you can win a bunch of them and it's good that the good guys did in this case. But, you know, the 20th person who's prosecuted unjustly, not in Washington, D.C. and not at the Reflecting Pool, but in Omaha, Nebraska for some little thing that got annoyed the Trump administration can't get that level of legal assistance. So the whole thing is both, as you've said, I mean, really ridiculous and embarrassing and humiliating, but also really a window into how an authoritarian administration works.
[03:24]
A
I think we should note that there are still some cases outstanding. Right. So this was the felony case against David Hearn. It has been dismissed, but there are still a handful of cases out there working their way through the system. Right. I can't imagine those hold up at this point.
[03:37]
B
Yeah, I doubt it.
[03:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think it's five misdemeanor cases.
[03:41]
B
I think this case, I don't fully understand this was dismissed with prejudice or without predators. I can't remember which one is the one where you say it. But they could bring the case again, I assume the judge isn't going to accept that and it's going to just relegated to the ash heap of history. But again, as you say, though, and again, other people look at this and think, well, this got dismissed, but I might not have this legal help, so maybe I won't get us, you know, I won't cross some aspect of the Trump administration that could get me arrested. Beside, as I say, I won't have this kind of high class, this publicity and high class legal help. So I think one shouldn't underestimate just the intimidation effects something like this could have. Hopefully it has the reverse effect of also embarrassing the Trump administration. But since they seem incapable of embarrassment, I'm dubious how much and I'm serious about that. I mean, does it, I was on a legal chain with a bunch of lawyers. Well, this could deter them. This will really embarrass them. I don't believe that. I mean, I think they need to be stopped, they need to be, the funding needs to be cut, they need to be investigated and they need to be congressional oversight, presumably the next Congress in a very serious and aggressive kind. But the idea that they're going to sort of. Well, here's an obvious question. Is anyone in the Interior Department or the Justice Department to pay a price for this? Are they going to be disciplined, do you think?
[04:53]
A
No, no, no, of course not. Of course not. It really is just reading through the documents, reading through the filing, looking at how this whole thing, you know, kind of came together and then fell apart is, is so telling about how shameless all of these, all of these people are. Like, first of all, first of all, let's just go back to the very beginning of this, right? How did this begin? This began because the President decided to send a no bid contract to a guy to do the sealant on the pool. He sent contract to another guy who looked like a cartoon mobster. Remember, remember the guy who did the, you know, the filter, the filtration system? This is a different guy, but he was doing sealant, did a bad job. They, you know, the President drove over it in his motorcade. Who knows if that broke it? It didn't. Seal started peeling up immediately. And, and, and folks at the Interior knew about this. Like it's not, it's not like it was, it was a hidden thing. They knew that there were problems from the beginning. They knew that, that it was no good, but it was, but they just, I guess lied to the doj. And this is, this is the thing that is, this is the thing that is so troubling to me, right, Is that you, you have one part of the government, you have the Department of the Interior just straight up lying to the Department of Justice. Department of justice goes out there and does their, does an investigation, but, and eventually they get to the point where they dismiss it. But you know, we've got clips of Genie Pirro out there talking about how guilty this guy is, how obviously we're going to have so much proof of. They're out there, he's out there cutting up the thing. Can we play, can we play the video? I think folks need to see it. He caused damage and that damage is over $1,000. Keying in on that. How do you prove that thousand dollars with an expert? Come to the trial.
[06:39]
B
You can.
[06:39]
A
We will hear all that at the trial. Did he have any tools or was it just his bare hands? Right now we believe it's his bare hands, both hands. So does that indicate in your belief that it was probably damaged before, or do you believe that he. Oh, he damaged it further. But do you believe it had already been damaged before? He damaged the pool before he touched it. He damaged this pool. But there have been, you know, all these videos. Well, good. I'm glad you've got that evidence. Come on in the grand jury. You can testify. Next. The smugness and just kind of vitriol is really striking. But she's just reflecting the president. Right. Like this is just a reflection of what he wanted.
[07:19]
B
Absolutely. You know, I struck watching the clip I hadn't seen in a while. I don't know who the guy in the white uniform behind Firoh is. I assume maybe it's the park police. Do you think? I don't know. It was. Didn't look like it wasn't a DOJ attorney. It was someone who's more of a police. So that's another part of the government that's implicated. And I think there were other people. I haven't seen the broad shot, so to speak, but I don't think there was just one person standing behind. She probably had other people from agencies that, quote, investigated this. I also would point out, we don't know. I mean, DOJ says that Interior misled them. We don't know that that's the case. I mean, we don't know. What if some deputy Assistant Secretary Interior said to some deputy, some lawyer at doj, hey, you know, this is not great. I mean, this isn't really quite the way it happened. And the guy said, well, okay, maybe I'll take that up the chain. Whoops. The chain. You know, I'm sorry, we don't want to hear that. I mean, that is. The degree of corruption throughout is so great. And Pirro, then just asserting the guilt of someone based on evidence when she says that. If you're an Actual serious U.S. attorney, you have to know that that is true. You can't just be depending on, obviously, politically pressured representations. If they were such representations from the Interior Department. But you're right, the fish rots at the head, you know, from the head down. And this is entirely the way Trump wants his executive branch to work.
[08:34]
A
Yeah. And if we. Let's watch Trump. Cause, I mean, it's really, again, it's very striking just watching him speak about this. Are the contractors who did the initial work for the Reflecting Pool, are they to blame for the current condition or is it vandalism?
[08:48]
C
Vandals. You know, we have a hundred, and we have a, I think 290300 foot slit right through it. Probably a box cutter or a knife of some kind. Somebody went in with a knife and cut it. They cut it up good. And then they cut a 200, 350 foot slip in the form of lots of little slips. The reflecting pool is so beautiful. They tried to destroy it. They cut it up with a box knife and tried to destroy it, but we caught them. They would cut it and they would grab this very expensive and very good material, totally waterproof, and they rip it. These people are sick. They ripped a scar 350ft long. Now, I can't help it if somebody goes in with a knife and starts hacking it up. And we also have pictures of it, you know, we have released the photos. You'll see it in court.
[09:41]
A
I, Bill, I just want, I just want you to think about the actual physical process of what he's discussing here, which I think at the time to everybody who was not in the tank for Donald Trump and maga, and we'll get to them in a second because this is the real scary thing. I think the idea of somebody just like, all right, I'm gonna go into the reflecting pool and I've got a box cutter. I'm gonna walk the length of a football field cutting behind it boggles the mind. It boggles the mind that anybody could see the hear him say this and think, oh, that sounds reasonable.
[10:13]
B
Yeah. On the National Mall, which is policed and which was already reflective, already been in the news, so it's probably a little more policed. It's not like we're doing this in some obscure, you know, park that's empty at night. And as they say in Omaha, Nebraska, with all due respect to Omaha, Nebraska. Right. I mean, this is like right in the mall in Washington. Yeah. Ludicrous. I mean, well, let me ask you this, and you mentioned maga, so I assume this is where you're going, but I'll just ask it. I mean, you've studied MAGA quite a lot. I've followed it closely. What will happen? Will people pretend? Will all the people who took this seriously and echoed it and went on about vandalism, will they just be quiet? Will they, Some of them, will anyone apologize? Will they learn a lesson from this? Will they. Where, where, where does this, what effect does this have?
[10:55]
A
Will they learn a lesson from this? No, I don't think they'll learn a lesson. No. The, the, I think what, what had the response here. We've already seen it, actually. We've already seen this play out slightly, which is that they'll say, oh, geez, Trump derangement so much. Why are you so obsessed with the reflecting pool? Why do you care so much about the reflecting pool? Like, don't you, first of all, don't you want the reflecting pool to be beautiful? Why do you hate America? Why don't you want the, the, the capital of our country to look nice? But really, you're just so obsessed with it. It's kind of sad. It's a little bit scary actually, how obsessed you are in your Trump derangement with the reflecting Pool. And as if Donald Trump hadn't made this remaking of Washington D.C. the centerpiece of his, of his, of his administration, you know, outside of the failed wars with Iran and all that, it's like, we're going to beautify. We're going to beautify. He had a poster at the Resolute desk. Or is it still a Resolute? I don't. He had the, he had a poster in the Oval Office where he's like, look at how tall the reflecting pool is. And he put it like it was a skyscraper. He's like, we have to fix all of this. It's going to take a little bit of time. I, he is the one who is obsessed with this. And it, this failure again on multiple levels. The no bid contract process, the, the, the, the lies from multiple branches of the government or multiple departments within the, the federal branch of the government. You know, it really is representative of everything that is wrong with him. And I will say where, where I was going to go with this bill is that the thing that is scariest about this to me is that you have, it's, it's a real Emperor's no Clothes situation, right? Where you have Donald Trump out there and his apparatus out there saying the most insanely, obviously ridiculous things about box cutters in the reflecting pool. And it's vandalism that destroyed this. And all of the MAGA faithful are out there like, well, can you believe they would vandalize the reflecting pool like this? Can you believe that this would happen? And, and like I said, they'll, they'll try and pivot and shift, but nobody's ever going to be like, we were lied to. We were lied to and we, we trusted him and we messed up. That's on us. Nobody will ever say that. Nobody. They'll either ignore it or they'll spin it or they'll twist it. And that is how, how bad the information ecosystem has gotten. And that's, that's the thing I find actually scariest about all this.
[13:12]
B
Now, that's a good point. And the Trump administration won't change. I think that's the other side of it. I sometimes are on these text chains with lawyers who worked at doj and they can't quite believe what's happening. And they, well, maybe this will really caus changing their ways. And it's not. This will, this will happen again and again and again unless they, you know, Congress can act so strongly that somehow they get deterred. The only way it won't happen is if they're deterred, there won't be any shame, as you said, or any embarrassment. Can I ask you one other question if we have a minute here, because you're shrewd about these things, I'm sort of struck and I don't think this is something that's been commented on much. Why is Trump so obsessed with Washington D.C. with the beautifying of Washington D.C. i mean, it's not if you're a MAGA type A is not from Washington. He doesn't spend that much time here. I mean, he goes to met to Florida as much as he can. He goes to the New Jersey course. You know, he's not like he's a lover like the Obamas like to go. You know, they actually lived here before, they live here here afterwards. They like going to restaurants. Trump's not strolling around D.C. enjoying the beauties of the city or the historical aspects of the city. And he's Maga's sort of anti D.C. presumably the swamp. So what's with the. I mean, I'm just str how obsessed he is with, as you said, the pool. But also, I mean, some of it's obviously just pure insane megalomania, the arch, but also the beautiful cleaning up, quote, damaging, making less attractive the statues. But I mean, the whole turning the Eisenhower office, the Old Executive Office Building, white from the gray. I mean, one could be against a lot of these things on aesthetic and other historical preservation grounds. But why is Trump doing this in the first place? What do you think?
[14:50]
A
I do think. Look, I think that, you know, the thing we all have to remember about Donald Trump is that he is a he, he fashions himself as a builder, right? Like he thinks I build things, I build skyscrapers, I build these beautiful buildings, I build these great apartments and, and I fill them with things that look nice. And you know what looks he's like, he's like one of those birds that collect shiny objects, right? Like the things he thinks look nice are gold. He like I'm gold. I want gold. I want everything to be gold tinged. And that's why, you know, I saw somebody joke that the West Wing now looks like a, Like. Like a what, Thai restaurant? Or, like. But, like, it just. It has this, like, really kind of ridiculous aesthetic now. Just gold everywhere. But I do think that this is his. And, and his. The other thing is he likes to put his name on things. So, you know, he's gonna. He's gonna build the Trump Ballroom. He's gonna build, you know, the, The. He's gonna fix all these things. And I. I do think that that is actually his favorite thing. It's his favorite thing to do is that. And hit the tariff button. If, like, if he can smash the tariff button and build a building, he'll be. He'll be happier. I still, I, I've said this time and again, but I really feel like if we offered him some sort of plea deal where he gets out of office and then he gets like an HGTV show where he gets to remake Washington D.C. you know, just going from place to place and, you know, renovating and demolishing, he would be very happy with that. I don't. I don't know that we could make that work, but it would be, you know, it'd be. It'd be great for this new Paramount, Warner's, whatever, if that ever goes there. Wonderful TV show.
[16:20]
B
Good idea. Yeah, we should promote that some more. That would be good. Only if he leaves office and if he can get Vance to leave somehow. Yeah, sure, that would be. Yeah. But he is obsessed with. I guess he thinks D.C. is, you know, it's the capital. It's Washington. It's got the famous people's monuments. He puts his own brand on it. But it is sort of. I think a lot of it is also the conceit that he knows what looks nice and the obsession with the gold. The White House, I mean, it is somewhat. Had the privilege of working there for a few years. I mean, it is unbelievable to see what he's done there. Yeah, it's unfair. We have a nice local Thai restaurant here in the suburbs of D.C. and it doesn't look nearly as bad as Trump's White House. I want to say.
[16:58]
A
No, I do not mean to insult any, you know, great cuisine. Love, love, love Thai. All right, well. Well, Bill, thanks for. Thanks for. Thanks for letting. Letting me rant about this, because this is what I saw when I saw the Friday night news dump that this guy was being. That David Hearn was being, you know, set free. I was just like, this is actually outrageous. This is one of the most outrageous abuses of power that we've seen. Again, I understand. I like, there's the petty corruptions, the. The little venal stuff like skimming money from your idiot followers for meme coins, whatever. Like, that's bad. But it's. It's a. This is using the power of the state to persecute a guy for something that you did and messed up on your own. And that's. That's dangerous and scary. And I. I really think we don't. We. We should appreciate what we are. What we are seeing here, which is. Which is not great.
[17:47]
B
Agreed.
[17:48]
A
So.
[17:48]
B
Agreed. Well, thank you for taking the time on Saturday. I'm glad we did this. I think it is important, actually, as you say. Yeah.
[17:53]
A
And everybody, thanks for listening to Bulwark Takes watching us on YouTube. Make sure you hit the like and subscribe. Share this with your friends. I mean, again, this is an outrageous thing. People need to know about it. And I hope. I hope you have a. I hope you have a nice weekend.

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: DOJ Admits Reflecting Pool Wasn’t Vandalized
Date: August 1, 2026
Host: Sonny Bunch
Guest: Bill Kristol

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sonny Bunch and Bill Kristol break down the stunning reversal by the Department of Justice (DOJ), admitting that Olympic canoeist David Hearn was wrongly accused of vandalizing the newly resealed Reflecting Pool in Washington, D.C. The hosts discuss the broader implications of the Trump administration’s approach to power, truth, and accountability, using this incident as a lens for examining the escalating culture of government misdirection and intimidation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Outrageous Prosecution of David Hearn

Background: David Hearn was charged with felony vandalism of the Reflecting Pool, claimed to have caused significant damage to the pool’s new sealant, a project overtly linked to Trump’s "beautification" of D.C. ([00:00]).
Reversal: The DOJ, in a Friday night "news dump," admitted the pool was not vandalized. The real issue was Department of Interior mismanagement and a failed maintenance contract ([00:40]).
Host Reaction: Sonny Bunch expresses outrage at the misuse of prosecutorial power for political and personal cover-ups.
- “This is a case…used the force of law to try and persecute somebody for their own mistakes…lied about it…” ([00:10])

Expansion of Government Corruption and Lying

Bill Kristol’s Take: The culture of lies in the Trump administration has become deeply institutionalized, with officials at all levels, including Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgum, perpetuating misinformation ([01:24]).
Quote:
- “The degree to which the culture of lying…has just permeated through the Trump administration and down the ranks, I find ominous.” - Bill Kristol ([01:45])
Imbalance of Power: Legal resources for falsely accused individuals are only available with outside help—most people would not be as lucky as Hearn, highlighting the dangerous asymmetry in the justice system ([02:18]).
Quote:
- “You can win a bunch of them and it's good that the good guys did in this case. But…the 20th person…can’t get that level of legal assistance.” - Bill Kristol ([02:55])

Lingering Legal Fallout and Intimidation Effects

Other Cases Remain: While the main felony case against Hearn was dropped, a handful of misdemeanors are still pending. The hosts doubt these will hold up ([03:23]-[03:41]).
Chilling Effect: The episode is likely to deter future resistance to government overreach, as most citizens won’t believe they’d receive fair treatment or equivalent legal defense ([03:41]-[04:32]).
Quote:
- “I think one shouldn't underestimate just the intimidation effects something like this could have.” - Bill Kristol ([04:18])

Anatomy of a Manufactured Scandal

Origins: The fiasco began with a no-bid, insider contract for resealing the pool. Faulty workmanship quickly led to visible damage ([04:52]-[05:14]).
White House Response: Rather than admit fault, the Interior Department lied to DOJ, which then launched a criminal investigation and prosecution against Hearn ([05:14]).
Media and Messaging: DOJ’s Jeanine Pirro publicly asserted Hearn’s guilt in inflammatory tones, echoing Trump’s personal vendettas ([06:27]-[07:10]).
Quote:
- “She’s just reflecting the president. Right. Like this is just a reflection of what he wanted.” - Sonny Bunch ([07:13])

Accountability? Unlikely.

Zero Consequences Anticipated: Neither DOJ nor Interior officials are expected to face discipline or professional penalties ([04:52], [08:32]).
Institutional Rot: The cross-departmental lying, scapegoating, and outright dishonesty reflect a government more loyal to political self-preservation than truth or justice ([07:18]-[08:34]).

The Role of Trump and MAGA Media

Trump’s Claims: Trump gave highly implausible accounts of "vandals" using box cutters to slice the pool lining, claims undermined by basic logic and the physical layout/security of the National Mall ([08:34]-[09:41]).
Quote:
- “They tried to destroy it. They cut it up with a box knife and tried to destroy it, but we caught them…” - Donald Trump ([08:55])
MAGA Response: The hosts agree MAGA supporters and sympathetic media outlets will spin the reversal, claim obsession is with the pool itself, or pivot to blaming critics for caring ([10:55]-[12:45]).
Quote:
- “Nobody’s ever going to be like, we were lied to. We were lied to and we…messed up. That’s on us. Nobody will ever say that.” - Sonny Bunch ([12:33])

Trump’s Obsession with D.C. “Beautification”

Analysis: Trump’s fixation on remaking Washington is discussed as a psychological need to construct and rebrand—akin to a trademark impulse for ostentatious gold, grandeur, and the Trump name ([14:49]-[16:20]).
Quote:
- “He’s like one of those birds that collect shiny objects…gold everywhere…He likes to put his name on things.” - Sonny Bunch ([15:06])

Larger Themes and Warnings

Authoritarian Warning: This incident is a microcosm of the administration’s approach—using state power to cover up failures, pursue vendettas, and evade accountability ([16:58]-[17:47]).
Host’s Summary:
- “This is using the power of the state to persecute a guy for something that you did and messed up on your own. And that’s…dangerous and scary.” - Sonny Bunch ([17:28])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“The degree to which the culture of lying…has just permeated through the Trump administration and down the ranks, I find ominous.”
— Bill Kristol ([01:45])
“You can win a bunch of them and it's good that the good guys did in this case. But…the 20th person…can’t get that level of legal assistance.”
— Bill Kristol ([02:55])
“She’s just reflecting the president. Right. Like this is just a reflection of what he wanted.”
— Sonny Bunch ([07:13])
“[Trump:] ‘They cut it up with a box knife and tried to destroy it, but we caught them…’”
— Donald Trump ([08:55])
“Nobody’s ever going to be like, we were lied to…That’s on us. Nobody will ever say that.”
— Sonny Bunch ([12:33])
“He’s like one of those birds that collect shiny objects…gold everywhere…He likes to put his name on things.”
— Sonny Bunch ([15:06])
“This is using the power of the state to persecute a guy for something that you did and messed up on your own. And that’s…dangerous and scary.”
— Sonny Bunch ([17:28])

Timestamps of Key Segments

[00:00] Introduction, overview of the reflecting pool incident and David Hearn’s prosecution
[01:24] Bill Kristol on culture of lying and legal system imbalance
[03:23] Discussion of remaining misdemeanor charges and intimidation effect
[04:52] Breakdown of how the scandal started with a no-bid contract
[06:27] DOJ’s public smear via Jeanine Pirro, host reactions
[08:34] Trump’s implausible narrative about vandalism
[10:55] Anticipated MAGA/media spin and lack of introspection
[14:49] Psychological profile of Trump’s obsession with D.C., gold, branding
[16:58] Final thoughts on the real stakes and abuse of state power

Conclusion

This episode is an incisive, biting dissection of both a specific injustice and the wider political rot it symbolizes. Through the lens of the reflecting pool “vandalism” farce, the hosts detail a dangerous pattern: the use of state power to scapegoat and intimidate, abetted by a culture of dishonesty that infects both leadership and bureaucracy. The hosts issue a warning against complacency: these abuses are not random; they’re systemic—and the fallout isn’t just for headline cases like this one, but for citizens everywhere.

Loading summary

Transcript23 lines

[00:00]
A
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Bulwark Takes. I'm Sonny Bunch. I'm joined today by Bill Kristol. We're going to be talking about one of the most, one of the most outrageous things that has happened in the Trump administration. I think, look, there's all sorts of corruption, petty and otherwise. And you know, we can talk about demolishing the White House, etc. But this is a case where Bill, the White House has taken, has used the force of law to try and persecute somebody for their own mistakes, for their own, for their own misdeeds, lied about it, lied about the person, lied about what happened and, and used the power of the state against a guy. Right. We're talking, of course, about the reflecting pool. David Hearn, who is an Olympic canoeist, was arrested for vandalism, charged with felony vandalism because he was supposedly destroying the, the great beautiful sealant on the reflecting pool that had turned it, you know, the lovely shade of blue that Trump wanted. And, you know, this case goes through the courts and then late Friday night, Friday night news dump giro goes out there is like, oh, by the way, actually, it wasn't vandalism at all. The, the whole thing is, has been botched from the start. It's actually the Department of Interior's fault. And we, we gonna, we're not gonna prosecute the guy. We want him to be set free. I, I find this all incredibly outrageous and frustrating, Bill, but I think you are in an even darker place than me at this point.
[01:25]
B
Well, just. It shows how willing they all are to lie. From Trump on down to the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Burgum, who was, so far as one knew before the Trump administration was a pretty standard issue Republican governor, but not a congenital liar. But people under Burgum, it's not like Doug Burgum personally did all this stuff, transmitted all this stuff from Interior to Justice. And it's not like Jeanine Pirro was the only person in justice to accept or pretend to accept what Interior did. They had FBI agents, remember park police out, out looking at the place, looking at the reflecting pool. So the degree to which the culture of lying or the pressure to lie and exceeding to the pressure to lie has just permeated through the Trump administration and down the ranks, I find ominous. In this case, it didn't work. And that's good. One other point I'll make just on the slightly more ominous side, though, is, I mean, he got off the unjustly accused innocent man. He got off partly because he got pro Bono legal help from very good attorneys. I actually am on the board of the Democracy Defenders Fund, so I'm a little biased, but Norm Eisen REPRESENTATIVE in court Also the Washington Litigation Group, another group that I've been slightly involved in helping get some funding to nonprofits. So they get to use taxpayer money to prosecute someone unjustly. And the opposition, if I can put it that way, has to raise money, which they did, but I mean, from donors and stuff, to fight back. And obviously it's an unequal, that's an unequal fight and it means that you can win a bunch of them and it's good that the good guys did in this case. But, you know, the 20th person who's prosecuted unjustly, not in Washington, D.C. and not at the Reflecting Pool, but in Omaha, Nebraska for some little thing that got annoyed the Trump administration can't get that level of legal assistance. So the whole thing is both, as you've said, I mean, really ridiculous and embarrassing and humiliating, but also really a window into how an authoritarian administration works.
[03:24]
A
I think we should note that there are still some cases outstanding. Right. So this was the felony case against David Hearn. It has been dismissed, but there are still a handful of cases out there working their way through the system. Right. I can't imagine those hold up at this point.
[03:37]
B
Yeah, I doubt it.
[03:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think it's five misdemeanor cases.
[03:41]
B
I think this case, I don't fully understand this was dismissed with prejudice or without predators. I can't remember which one is the one where you say it. But they could bring the case again, I assume the judge isn't going to accept that and it's going to just relegated to the ash heap of history. But again, as you say, though, and again, other people look at this and think, well, this got dismissed, but I might not have this legal help, so maybe I won't get us, you know, I won't cross some aspect of the Trump administration that could get me arrested. Beside, as I say, I won't have this kind of high class, this publicity and high class legal help. So I think one shouldn't underestimate just the intimidation effects something like this could have. Hopefully it has the reverse effect of also embarrassing the Trump administration. But since they seem incapable of embarrassment, I'm dubious how much and I'm serious about that. I mean, does it, I was on a legal chain with a bunch of lawyers. Well, this could deter them. This will really embarrass them. I don't believe that. I mean, I think they need to be stopped, they need to be, the funding needs to be cut, they need to be investigated and they need to be congressional oversight, presumably the next Congress in a very serious and aggressive kind. But the idea that they're going to sort of. Well, here's an obvious question. Is anyone in the Interior Department or the Justice Department to pay a price for this? Are they going to be disciplined, do you think?
[04:53]
A
No, no, no, of course not. Of course not. It really is just reading through the documents, reading through the filing, looking at how this whole thing, you know, kind of came together and then fell apart is, is so telling about how shameless all of these, all of these people are. Like, first of all, first of all, let's just go back to the very beginning of this, right? How did this begin? This began because the President decided to send a no bid contract to a guy to do the sealant on the pool. He sent contract to another guy who looked like a cartoon mobster. Remember, remember the guy who did the, you know, the filter, the filtration system? This is a different guy, but he was doing sealant, did a bad job. They, you know, the President drove over it in his motorcade. Who knows if that broke it? It didn't. Seal started peeling up immediately. And, and, and folks at the Interior knew about this. Like it's not, it's not like it was, it was a hidden thing. They knew that there were problems from the beginning. They knew that, that it was no good, but it was, but they just, I guess lied to the doj. And this is, this is the thing that is, this is the thing that is so troubling to me, right, Is that you, you have one part of the government, you have the Department of the Interior just straight up lying to the Department of Justice. Department of justice goes out there and does their, does an investigation, but, and eventually they get to the point where they dismiss it. But you know, we've got clips of Genie Pirro out there talking about how guilty this guy is, how obviously we're going to have so much proof of. They're out there, he's out there cutting up the thing. Can we play, can we play the video? I think folks need to see it. He caused damage and that damage is over $1,000. Keying in on that. How do you prove that thousand dollars with an expert? Come to the trial.
[06:39]
B
You can.
[06:39]
A
We will hear all that at the trial. Did he have any tools or was it just his bare hands? Right now we believe it's his bare hands, both hands. So does that indicate in your belief that it was probably damaged before, or do you believe that he. Oh, he damaged it further. But do you believe it had already been damaged before? He damaged the pool before he touched it. He damaged this pool. But there have been, you know, all these videos. Well, good. I'm glad you've got that evidence. Come on in the grand jury. You can testify. Next. The smugness and just kind of vitriol is really striking. But she's just reflecting the president. Right. Like this is just a reflection of what he wanted.
[07:19]
B
Absolutely. You know, I struck watching the clip I hadn't seen in a while. I don't know who the guy in the white uniform behind Firoh is. I assume maybe it's the park police. Do you think? I don't know. It was. Didn't look like it wasn't a DOJ attorney. It was someone who's more of a police. So that's another part of the government that's implicated. And I think there were other people. I haven't seen the broad shot, so to speak, but I don't think there was just one person standing behind. She probably had other people from agencies that, quote, investigated this. I also would point out, we don't know. I mean, DOJ says that Interior misled them. We don't know that that's the case. I mean, we don't know. What if some deputy Assistant Secretary Interior said to some deputy, some lawyer at doj, hey, you know, this is not great. I mean, this isn't really quite the way it happened. And the guy said, well, okay, maybe I'll take that up the chain. Whoops. The chain. You know, I'm sorry, we don't want to hear that. I mean, that is. The degree of corruption throughout is so great. And Pirro, then just asserting the guilt of someone based on evidence when she says that. If you're an Actual serious U.S. attorney, you have to know that that is true. You can't just be depending on, obviously, politically pressured representations. If they were such representations from the Interior Department. But you're right, the fish rots at the head, you know, from the head down. And this is entirely the way Trump wants his executive branch to work.
[08:34]
A
Yeah. And if we. Let's watch Trump. Cause, I mean, it's really, again, it's very striking just watching him speak about this. Are the contractors who did the initial work for the Reflecting Pool, are they to blame for the current condition or is it vandalism?
[08:48]
C
Vandals. You know, we have a hundred, and we have a, I think 290300 foot slit right through it. Probably a box cutter or a knife of some kind. Somebody went in with a knife and cut it. They cut it up good. And then they cut a 200, 350 foot slip in the form of lots of little slips. The reflecting pool is so beautiful. They tried to destroy it. They cut it up with a box knife and tried to destroy it, but we caught them. They would cut it and they would grab this very expensive and very good material, totally waterproof, and they rip it. These people are sick. They ripped a scar 350ft long. Now, I can't help it if somebody goes in with a knife and starts hacking it up. And we also have pictures of it, you know, we have released the photos. You'll see it in court.
[09:41]
A
I, Bill, I just want, I just want you to think about the actual physical process of what he's discussing here, which I think at the time to everybody who was not in the tank for Donald Trump and maga, and we'll get to them in a second because this is the real scary thing. I think the idea of somebody just like, all right, I'm gonna go into the reflecting pool and I've got a box cutter. I'm gonna walk the length of a football field cutting behind it boggles the mind. It boggles the mind that anybody could see the hear him say this and think, oh, that sounds reasonable.
[10:13]
B
Yeah. On the National Mall, which is policed and which was already reflective, already been in the news, so it's probably a little more policed. It's not like we're doing this in some obscure, you know, park that's empty at night. And as they say in Omaha, Nebraska, with all due respect to Omaha, Nebraska. Right. I mean, this is like right in the mall in Washington. Yeah. Ludicrous. I mean, well, let me ask you this, and you mentioned maga, so I assume this is where you're going, but I'll just ask it. I mean, you've studied MAGA quite a lot. I've followed it closely. What will happen? Will people pretend? Will all the people who took this seriously and echoed it and went on about vandalism, will they just be quiet? Will they, Some of them, will anyone apologize? Will they learn a lesson from this? Will they. Where, where, where does this, what effect does this have?
[10:55]
A
Will they learn a lesson from this? No, I don't think they'll learn a lesson. No. The, the, I think what, what had the response here. We've already seen it, actually. We've already seen this play out slightly, which is that they'll say, oh, geez, Trump derangement so much. Why are you so obsessed with the reflecting pool? Why do you care so much about the reflecting pool? Like, don't you, first of all, don't you want the reflecting pool to be beautiful? Why do you hate America? Why don't you want the, the, the capital of our country to look nice? But really, you're just so obsessed with it. It's kind of sad. It's a little bit scary actually, how obsessed you are in your Trump derangement with the reflecting Pool. And as if Donald Trump hadn't made this remaking of Washington D.C. the centerpiece of his, of his, of his administration, you know, outside of the failed wars with Iran and all that, it's like, we're going to beautify. We're going to beautify. He had a poster at the Resolute desk. Or is it still a Resolute? I don't. He had the, he had a poster in the Oval Office where he's like, look at how tall the reflecting pool is. And he put it like it was a skyscraper. He's like, we have to fix all of this. It's going to take a little bit of time. I, he is the one who is obsessed with this. And it, this failure again on multiple levels. The no bid contract process, the, the, the, the lies from multiple branches of the government or multiple departments within the, the federal branch of the government. You know, it really is representative of everything that is wrong with him. And I will say where, where I was going to go with this bill is that the thing that is scariest about this to me is that you have, it's, it's a real Emperor's no Clothes situation, right? Where you have Donald Trump out there and his apparatus out there saying the most insanely, obviously ridiculous things about box cutters in the reflecting pool. And it's vandalism that destroyed this. And all of the MAGA faithful are out there like, well, can you believe they would vandalize the reflecting pool like this? Can you believe that this would happen? And, and like I said, they'll, they'll try and pivot and shift, but nobody's ever going to be like, we were lied to. We were lied to and we, we trusted him and we messed up. That's on us. Nobody will ever say that. Nobody. They'll either ignore it or they'll spin it or they'll twist it. And that is how, how bad the information ecosystem has gotten. And that's, that's the thing I find actually scariest about all this.
[13:12]
B
Now, that's a good point. And the Trump administration won't change. I think that's the other side of it. I sometimes are on these text chains with lawyers who worked at doj and they can't quite believe what's happening. And they, well, maybe this will really caus changing their ways. And it's not. This will, this will happen again and again and again unless they, you know, Congress can act so strongly that somehow they get deterred. The only way it won't happen is if they're deterred, there won't be any shame, as you said, or any embarrassment. Can I ask you one other question if we have a minute here, because you're shrewd about these things, I'm sort of struck and I don't think this is something that's been commented on much. Why is Trump so obsessed with Washington D.C. with the beautifying of Washington D.C. i mean, it's not if you're a MAGA type A is not from Washington. He doesn't spend that much time here. I mean, he goes to met to Florida as much as he can. He goes to the New Jersey course. You know, he's not like he's a lover like the Obamas like to go. You know, they actually lived here before, they live here here afterwards. They like going to restaurants. Trump's not strolling around D.C. enjoying the beauties of the city or the historical aspects of the city. And he's Maga's sort of anti D.C. presumably the swamp. So what's with the. I mean, I'm just str how obsessed he is with, as you said, the pool. But also, I mean, some of it's obviously just pure insane megalomania, the arch, but also the beautiful cleaning up, quote, damaging, making less attractive the statues. But I mean, the whole turning the Eisenhower office, the Old Executive Office Building, white from the gray. I mean, one could be against a lot of these things on aesthetic and other historical preservation grounds. But why is Trump doing this in the first place? What do you think?
[14:50]
A
I do think. Look, I think that, you know, the thing we all have to remember about Donald Trump is that he is a he, he fashions himself as a builder, right? Like he thinks I build things, I build skyscrapers, I build these beautiful buildings, I build these great apartments and, and I fill them with things that look nice. And you know what looks he's like, he's like one of those birds that collect shiny objects, right? Like the things he thinks look nice are gold. He like I'm gold. I want gold. I want everything to be gold tinged. And that's why, you know, I saw somebody joke that the West Wing now looks like a, Like. Like a what, Thai restaurant? Or, like. But, like, it just. It has this, like, really kind of ridiculous aesthetic now. Just gold everywhere. But I do think that this is his. And, and his. The other thing is he likes to put his name on things. So, you know, he's gonna. He's gonna build the Trump Ballroom. He's gonna build, you know, the, The. He's gonna fix all these things. And I. I do think that that is actually his favorite thing. It's his favorite thing to do is that. And hit the tariff button. If, like, if he can smash the tariff button and build a building, he'll be. He'll be happier. I still, I, I've said this time and again, but I really feel like if we offered him some sort of plea deal where he gets out of office and then he gets like an HGTV show where he gets to remake Washington D.C. you know, just going from place to place and, you know, renovating and demolishing, he would be very happy with that. I don't. I don't know that we could make that work, but it would be, you know, it'd be. It'd be great for this new Paramount, Warner's, whatever, if that ever goes there. Wonderful TV show.
[16:20]
B
Good idea. Yeah, we should promote that some more. That would be good. Only if he leaves office and if he can get Vance to leave somehow. Yeah, sure, that would be. Yeah. But he is obsessed with. I guess he thinks D.C. is, you know, it's the capital. It's Washington. It's got the famous people's monuments. He puts his own brand on it. But it is sort of. I think a lot of it is also the conceit that he knows what looks nice and the obsession with the gold. The White House, I mean, it is somewhat. Had the privilege of working there for a few years. I mean, it is unbelievable to see what he's done there. Yeah, it's unfair. We have a nice local Thai restaurant here in the suburbs of D.C. and it doesn't look nearly as bad as Trump's White House. I want to say.
[16:58]
A
No, I do not mean to insult any, you know, great cuisine. Love, love, love Thai. All right, well. Well, Bill, thanks for. Thanks for. Thanks for letting. Letting me rant about this, because this is what I saw when I saw the Friday night news dump that this guy was being. That David Hearn was being, you know, set free. I was just like, this is actually outrageous. This is one of the most outrageous abuses of power that we've seen. Again, I understand. I like, there's the petty corruptions, the. The little venal stuff like skimming money from your idiot followers for meme coins, whatever. Like, that's bad. But it's. It's a. This is using the power of the state to persecute a guy for something that you did and messed up on your own. And that's. That's dangerous and scary. And I. I really think we don't. We. We should appreciate what we are. What we are seeing here, which is. Which is not great.
[17:47]
B
Agreed.
[17:48]
A
So.
[17:48]
B
Agreed. Well, thank you for taking the time on Saturday. I'm glad we did this. I think it is important, actually, as you say. Yeah.
[17:53]
A
And everybody, thanks for listening to Bulwark Takes watching us on YouTube. Make sure you hit the like and subscribe. Share this with your friends. I mean, again, this is an outrageous thing. People need to know about it. And I hope. I hope you have a. I hope you have a nice weekend.