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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
Hey, guys, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. We had a new story just dropped at Wired. It's a headline. Elon Musk takeover is being aided by a Trump world power couple. It's Stephen and Katie Miller. Stephen Miller is the prime minister, sources say, and his wife is the dogecoms guru. And they are liaising between the White House and everybody else in Republican Washington. The man behind the story is Jake Lahat of Wired, and I got him here right now. I wanted to talk to him about that so, you know, I mean, in case people weren't concerned enough about what's happening, Prime Minister Stephen Miller is not exactly, you know, bringing a lot of calm.
- [00:37]
Jake Lahat
No, it's intended as a reassuring message internally, but got it that it is not in reality. I mean, I learned a couple new things reporting on this story. One of them is that Katie Miller actually was detailed to do comms for Elon prior to the transition. This is according to a White House official. She also was detailed, I believe there's a political pro story on it at the time to do RFK juniors flacking in some capacity. But this I don't think was previously known. I also learned that one, there's kind of two way street, if you will, with. With her role on the comm side of Doge. And it is, it is. I think the relationship between Steven and Elon was understood to be at least, you know, chummy beforehand, but this is a little different when it comes to Katie. So she not only is relaying the Doge, you know, message of the day and to the extent they can provide accurate updates on what they're doing, but she's also channeling requests, traffic issues back to Musk when necessary. And, you know, that that involved more sensitive conversations and having to give the guy bad news. I don't know really what it looks like beyond that or what their social situation is, but we do have a source in the story who knows the couple personally and he said if you can learn any. If. Sorry. If he said, if you can find out anything about Stephen Miller's social life, I don't want to know the answer.
- [02:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I don't want to know any better thing about Steven Miller's social life either. I am intrigued, though, that I guess the dynamic that the story lays out to just kind of sum it up is that, you know, there are a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill and throughout the government who, like, directionally like Elon, you know, like the fact that he wants to break things up, like the fact that he's dark maga. Right. Like, but have some like, concerns about the way that he's going about it. Right. Because they're, they're getting the phone calls like they're hearing from constituents like, what the fuck? Like, I got fired or my friend got. Or like, I got this project got cut. And, and Elon doesn't really know how government works. I mean, I had a source tell me that Elon did not know that there were two houses of two different houses of Congress until like, relatively recently. I don't know whether that's true or a joke. I'm not a real reporter like you.
- [03:01]
Jake Lahat
But like, Elon doesn't know would not be great.
- [03:04]
Tim Miller
Yeah, he doesn't know his ass from his elbow about the government is the point.
- [03:07]
Jake Lahat
Definitely. I think square falls squarely under the description of like a Johnny come lately with.
- [03:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, sure, yeah. And so I guess these people, the direction like Elon, but have concerns about the execution. The story indicates that, you know, the Trump world is saying, okay, don't worry, you can talk to Stephen. Stephen Miller is going to manage this tiger.
- [03:30]
Jake Lahat
Yes. And it gets tricky with like, okay, are they there in like a guardrail capacity? And you know, there are some sources you told me about, you know, trying to keep Elon sort of coloring within the lines and all these kind of euphemisms for like, I don't know, not breaking the law maybe. But I think the thing that is a little deeper here is just the, the level of rapport and adding to that some tensions with. I gotta give a shout out to Josh Dawsey and co. I think Ryan Barber was also on that byline where they had a story about Katie Miller being on the payroll at P2 Public affairs, which you and some other sickos watching this or listening to this might. Might be aware of, which is basically a DeSantis aligned firm, kind of became, you know, the home for the DeSantis alumni. So she is. Was a huge gap for them. But also clearly is a sign of the desantis world influence getting just having more sway around Elon and that the linchpin of all this is. Is this couple.
- [04:35]
Tim Miller
I guess my question is like. And it doesn't really seem like Stephen Miller and Katie are the types of people that could control econ or that they are socially aligned. I mean, Stephen is, you know, an extreme ideologue, far right ideologue who like, worked for Jeff Sessions and like, came out of that world. And like, he doesn't know tech people, you know what I mean? Like, he doesn't rub elbows, so he doesn't hang out with Grimes. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard, right? So it's hard to kind of see. Like, to me this seems like a little bit of cope. I'm wondering if like, did you get any sense in the reporting that like Steven is actually positively influencing or reining in Elon at all? Like, I find that hard to know.
- [05:17]
Jake Lahat
I think it's more of an implementing. I think it's more that I also. I can't believe this reference survived in the story. But I vibe with these editors are wired so hard and then kept it, which was we made a Pet Shop Boys reference to the song opportunities where there's the whole, you know, you've got the brawn, I got the brains. And that's kind of what's going on here with Stephen and Katie having a better knowledge of the federal apparatus than Elon at the very least came in with. Right. I mean we can maybe say he's a, he's a really fast learner or you know, put that aside. And then Elon is kind of the brawn with this relentless drive to spread this farther, have the message get out in front, you know, the Trump advisors not necessarily knowing what's going on, just like the rest of us. So for all that whole problem is supposed to basically be come down to Stephen Katie Miller and that Katie, who again is not. She's a special government employee. She's not officially in the White House. While Steven's title is, you know, on paper, Deputy Chief of Staff Elon officially.
- [06:21]
Tim Miller
In the White House.
- [06:22]
Jake Lahat
You know, they go back and forth about this. Like, you know, we're all in the White House, but like, you know, obviously there's the DOGE administrator on paper, it's.
- [06:29]
Tim Miller
Just like, dude, to this point I had a back and forth Katie on X where there's a story the guys at 404 Media broke about how the Doge employees weren't going to use Slack anymore because the slacks were foible, essentially. Right. And they wanted to move DoGE under executive office of the President where there's more latitude. And I pointed out that this was maybe kind of similar to the consortium had about the Hillary Clinton private server that she was using to avoid flying. That was this massive front page scandal. And Katie replied that there are no conspiracies or private server. And I was like, well, but are you guys then being transparent about all your communications? Because it seems not to me. And if Katie Miller is not a full time government employee. She is not covered under certain transparency laws. Elon is obviously trying to avert some of this. Do you get a sense for like, I mean, I guess it seems obvious that these guys are doing some things to try to avoid having to be FOIA'd. Like people are concerned about like, you know, Elon being uncontrollable here. How much are people kind of enjoying the trauma that he's causing?
- [07:47]
Jake Lahat
You know, I mean, look at the people who talk to me for this story to, to your point earlier, are all ostensibly on board with like the general policy objectives of Doge. And you know, there's totally in alignment here with like Doge's targets being things that Stephen Miller is very much not a fan of, based on his public statements about civil servants and, you know, foreign aid and all that. I still think that largely everyone's like, this is what it's going to be for a while. There are very few if any of my sources now who think this is going to blow up immediately. I think that that was a little more mixed. And it's weirdly, as the PR disaster has gotten worse, it's kind of consolidated or, you know, they're more.
- [08:33]
Tim Miller
It's Trump. Trump keeps signaling that, you know, as long as Trump is happy with it, then, then, you know, there's no reason to think that there is going to be any sort of, you know, blow up internally and like, none of this, none of that. And that isn't going to change until the, the matters on the ground change.
- [08:49]
Jake Lahat
Totally.
- [08:49]
Tim Miller
All right, well, what any other, any other gossip around, I would say the.
- [08:53]
Jake Lahat
One thing that they do get into, because this is a weird recurring thing, they talk about Elon like, like a gifted child and you know, but it's always, it's always like a, when they throw around a lot of ages, a lot of them are like 11 and 12, notably like 13 years is how they refer to. So I think that was the wording we settled on in the story. And he's just, he's held to a different standard for a couple of reasons. I mean, you know, still with all those like caveats they'll throw out, they're kind of like, okay, brass tacks, one big vulnerability here. And that is even though Trump is thin skinned, when important people kind of at a certain level speak ill of him. Right?
- [09:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [09:39]
Jake Lahat
The Trump world atmosphere is so hyper macho. Right. All this stuff you talk about on your show, Elon, caring what random people think of him, anons on Twitter, just that kind of thing. There's A consensus building based on the people I've talked to, that that's a vulnerability in Trump world, that the worry is Elon's skin is a little too thin. He may be either enjoying or paying so much attention to his on camera appearances. I mean, again, the optics yesterday, just the last time when he was in the Oval, like standing the whole time, stuff like that, like, they pick up on that and they talk about that with me.
- [10:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [10:17]
Jake Lahat
But obviously everyone's like, and he's not.
- [10:19]
Tim Miller
As good at Trump at all of that. Like, he isn't. And my guess is that he's probably sensitive about that.
- [10:25]
Jake Lahat
And that's something to look at, look for in the story. Also shout, you know, wired.com at least, you know, the Trump people who are concerned that this is an optics issue in that there's still an off ramp to maybe, you know, throw you onto the bus and have him take the flack for it. There's this tension we get in the story, which is basically that Stephen Miller is sort of, you know, convene, even though he's done appearances in the press and stuff. The. A number of Trump advisors would prefer Elon to stay getting the majority of this heat because, you know, in their view, even though he's not as smooth as Trump on camera, to your point, he is better at grabbing attention. He clearly is able to set the attentional agenda, you know, in a similar way compared to Stephen Miller, who is maybe not, you know, the most.
- [11:16]
Tim Miller
Not exactly like he's super dynamic on TV either. It's not like the backup option is like George Clooney.
- [11:20]
Jake Lahat
He's a certain kind of charisma, but.
- [11:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you know, a certain kind of charisma. Negative, I think, is the kind that you're looking for. Thank you so much, Jake. Keep checking in with us on your stories.
- [11:33]
Jake Lahat
Absolutely.
- [11:33]
Tim Miller
Everybody else, go check out his story at Wired about how alarming. An alarming phrase. The Prime Minister, Stephen Miller and his relationship with Elon Musk. We'll keep you guys posted as new stuff breaks. Subscribe to the feed. We'll see you all soon.