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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, it's Lauren Egan here at the Bulwark. I am joined today by Fez Siddiqui. He is a technology reporter at the Washington Post, and he just wrote a truly excellent book about Elon Musk. It's called Hubris Maximus. So he's here with us today to chat about it. How's it going, Bez?
- [00:21]
B
Good. How are you guys? And thank you guys for having me.
- [00:24]
A
Yeah, of course. Well, I just finished reading your book last night. It was such a good read. It reads almost like a novel, the way you write about Elon Musk and chronicles all that he's been up to over the past few years. Can you start off by talking to us about why you wanted to write this book? There are a lot of Elon Musk biographies out there. There's no shortage of Musk content. But what to you, kind of makes this book stand out and what did you want to tackle that's different from some of those other projects?
- [00:51]
B
Yeah, so at the time that I began covering Elon Musk, he was sort of, you know, this larger than life figure whose reputation was kind of unimpeachable as, you know, this heroic innovator, one of our greatest American minds, and somebody who basically people worshiped in the vein of Steve Jobs. Which it's not necessarily to undercut that idea, but the Elon that I found in covering Tesla was deeply flawed. Even the Tesla fanboys would acknowledge this. We needed to get the whole picture of the man. Even if you are somebody who, you know, idolizes Elon in that way, I think there are some things that you'll find in the book that might be revelatory or sort of new for you that enrich your understanding of the man. And even if you're somebody who wants to build Ellen up in that way, it'll give you a more holistic understanding of who the man is.
- [02:02]
A
Talk to me a little bit about the book title. When you started this, did you know that that was the title you were going to land on? Or what was. What was the. The decision behind it?
- [02:11]
B
So early on in writing the book, I think this might have been around. I don't know. Shortly after I got started, the words maximum hubris spilled out of my mouth on a zoom call, I think it was, or maybe like a Google Meet. And somebody involved in the process was like, yes, what about that? And I liked it. And then as I got further along, there kept being these, like, allusions to, you know, Roman and Greek mythology to the point that actually it made more sense to flip it and make it Hubris Maximus. And I cannot take credit for that one. One of the editors on the project was like, what about Hubris Maximus? And it stuck. It was like that. That was the way to go.
- [03:07]
A
I'm curious if you think that there is something that's, like, deeply misunderstood or just like something that's sort of missed in the public conversation about Elon Musk.
- [03:17]
B
I think lately the conversation has shifted to, like, especially among a certain segment of the population and the voting population, that Elon's entire rise, you know, he, you know, exploits these loopholes, he skirts these guardrails. And I talk about in the book how there. There are what might be regarded as shortcuts taken in terms of product design or what have you. But also, Elon shows up, like, he manages to inspire people in certain ways where he's like, you know, I heard from somebody who was just really inspired by the fact that he showed up late at a. I believe it was a holiday, and he shows up on the assembly line to help deliver Teslas. And that image really sticks with workers and sort of inspires workers to devote themselves really, like, fiercely to this man. But there are other instances where he, like, demonstrably does not show up. There's an example in the book, you know, where he asked Twitter staff to come back to the company as a way of demonstrating, you know, their. Their commitment to building software. And people fly back, they have their Carry on bags in tow, and Elon simply does not show up that day. And like, you know, they're only there, they've flown back to the company for these reviews, product code reviews with Elon, and he's just not there.
- [05:01]
A
Yeah, I think that's what's like, so kind of interesting. Like confusing to me about him is like, you talk a lot about his ability to inspire and like, he's all these really loyal fans and employees, obviously. But then he has, you know, these tendencies for like, some erratic behavior and like, some micromanaging or in some cases just like, not showing up. It kind of makes him like a confusing and interesting, you know, CEO type figure to report on over these past few years.
- [05:31]
B
The beginning of COVID and how Elon is so upset by the closure of Tesla's key manufacturing plant in California, and Elon is unreachable. You know, there's a senior official at the company who simply cannot reach Elon Musk and has to appeal to Elon's own brother to sniff him out. And it's like, who. Who else runs the company this way. And what does that suggest about, you know, this publicly traded company and its management? I also talk about how, like, that was part partly strategic. Elon wanted to prevent money from flowing out of the company during this crucial time. So what better way to do that than just make yourself unreachable to approve any outgoing expenses? But this is a very, you know, different character than most, you know, Fortune 500 CEOs.
- [06:26]
A
Yeah. And you bring up Covid, and you have this really interesting part in the book where you talk about this is like, sort of, you know, as we're kind of coming out, Covid, Biden's president, he has this event at the White House that's all about promoting electric vehicles, but Musk is not invited to the White House for that. And you kind of, you know, it's a bit of like, maybe it's too. Is it too strong to say, like a radicalizing moment for Musk, in a way. Can you walk us through, like, how that is a bit of a pivotal moment in understanding sort of, you know, who Musk is as a political figure today?
- [07:01]
B
Tesla and its. Its fans crave this acknowledgment of their role, and it's deserved acknowledgement, frankly. I mean, obviously, Elon and Tesla mainstream the electric vehicle. They made it this aspirational product that people, you know, it was no longer a compromise to get an electric car. It was something that people dreamed of, you know, the Tesla Model S or the Model 3. At this point in the Biden administration, you know, months in, there had been very little, if any acknowledgment of Tesla's role in doing that, even as Biden is emphasizing electric vehicles as a core part of his, you know, green energy agenda. And the ultimate snub comes when Biden hosts an electric vehicle event on the White House lawn meant to promote these new and interesting cars coming out, none of which are Teslas. And so it's taken as a snub by Elon and the Tesla community that how could you promote all of these other manufacturers when Elon and Tesla were the ones to make electric vehicles, to put them on the map? It just starts Elon down this path of, you know, maybe the Democrats are not my friends, and maybe, in fact, they're my enemies.
- [08:34]
A
But there was another anecdote in your book that I found super interesting. It was from the federal shareholder trial in 2023, which, of course, for folks who may not remember, this was after Musk, I think, tweeted it was 2018. Right. That he had Funding secured to take the company private. And it created basically like this whole shitstorm that you detail truly, excellently, excellently in the book. But the part that really interests me is you write that during the trial, one of the lawyers asked the jury, can Elon Musk do whatever he wants and not face the consequences? Which I think is a bit of like an overarching theme and a question that you're trying to answer a bit in the book. So, you know, after writing this, after doing all this reporting, I'm curious if you feel like you have an answer to that or any conclusion to that question that was asked a few years ago.
- [09:25]
B
So what I'll say on it is the reporting in the book suggests that as far as the issues I raise, so funding secured being one or his comments toward Thai Cave Rescue volunteer or Tesla Autopilot or his management of Twitter, his efforts to wiggle out of that deal, his pay package in Delaware, you know, Elon seems to get his way on the pay package. For example. He, you know, it's stripped from him by a judge in Delaware, but Elon is like, whatever, we're going to relocate out of the state and the shareholders vote to reinstate. It remains to be seen what happens with that. But there are just numerous examples of, you know, authority aiming to crack down on Elon, and Elon seemingly getting his way regardless or doing everything in his power to, you know, prevent that from taking effect. And so as far as the book is concerned, I think the answer is he, he can do as he pleases.
- [10:48]
A
So that kind of plays in now to this moment, we're in now where he is supposed to be taking this step back from Doge and is going to refocus his attention on Tesla. But I'm curious, do you think he's actually, how do you think that's going to play out? Do you think he's actually capable of sort of relinquishing that kind of power and truly kind of taking a step back from Washington? Or what do you think is going to happen these coming weeks and months?
- [11:18]
B
It feels like this is either one or the other. Like, I don't see how being a part time overseer of Doge is feasible, especially given that, like, you know, your foot's still in the door. Even if, as you know, Musk claims you're going to devote one or two days to Doge, you know, where does that leave you? You have one or two days for Tesla, one or two days for Doge, one or two days for X, one or two days for SpaceX, we're out of days here or running out. And so I, I just wonder if, you know, this idea of stepping back but still maintaining a presence allows Elon to continue to maintain his influence over government without necessarily facing the continued blowback at Tesla the way that it's been to the point that it's, you know, calling the company's finances into question and the overall stability of the whole operation. So to me, it just, I, and, and no special insight into this. I just get this sense that, like, it has to be either one or the other. You know, you are involved with Doge and Doge does continue to wield a tremendous amount of power or, you know, the whole thing starts to wind down and, you know, Musk and some of those Doge associates start to dial back their, their influence on government operations.
- [12:49]
A
Do you think that he has some staying power sort of in the Republican Party? Is that still something that you think, like, he's not going to get bored of and this is like a long term sort of investment that he, he wants to make in having influence within that party?
- [13:04]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think he has the wallet. The power of the purse is, I don't know, undefeated. So Elon, Elon gave more than $275 million to, you know, seeing Trump and other Republicans elected in 2024, it's hard to see how that just disappears, especially when it had a demonstrable impact on the race. You know, the fact that this did not just go to Trump, that, that Elon backed, you know, the conservative candidate in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, that there are, you know, state level races that he's become interested in, that he can be a force, he can, you know, make or break political careers just with the power of an endorsement or donation or, you know, a public focus on a race. Elon as a political force seems to be here to stay. But that's not to say he's, you know, extremely popular. You know, the polling suggests otherwise. It's more that Elon can exert his will over elections, you know, with the power of his funding.
- [14:25]
A
Yeah, I imagine that you've had to have had to like, reach out to him a decent amount throughout all your reporting. I'm curious if you've had what your interactions with him have been like or if you've gotten any sort of engagement. I mean, he kind of, you know, has not made his feelings towards reporters all that secret, shall we say?
- [14:46]
B
Yeah, yes, a couple instances he has replied to my emails with some version of give my regards to your puppet master. And then another time he said.
- [14:58]
A
Sounds about right.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah. Another time he said, for the 100th time, give my regards to your puppet master. So that's kind of the extent of it. I mean, I think he. He ranted a bit about the. The paywall in one of those instances. Yeah, it's just. It's. It's. It's not, like, substantive necessarily, however you may feel about his retort, which I think a lot of people found funny, so. I get it. I get it. And then I. I did ask him questions outside of court one time, and I got, like, shushed by, like, one of his security guys. Like, like, literally, like I was a baby. So, you know, it's.
- [15:46]
A
That's pretty funny. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Fez, this is such a good book and so appreciate you coming on here to chat with us about it. Everyone go buy a copy. Thanks so much.
- [15:57]
B
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.