Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Elon Stirs the Fever Swamp as Trump World SPLINTERS Over Epstein"
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Host: The Bulwark
Guests: Bill Kristol and Sam Stein
Introduction
In the July 9, 2025 episode of Bulwark Takes, host Sam Stein engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Bill Kristol, author of Morning Shots, about the evolving dynamics within the Republican party, particularly focusing on Elon Musk's recent political maneuvers and their impact on the Trump-aligned faction. The discussion delves into the strategic implications of targeting Trump Republicans through issues like the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and the broader significance of conspiracism in modern political discourse.
Elon Musk’s Strategic Push Against Trump Republicans
Bill Kristol initiates the conversation by addressing Elon Musk’s unexpected foray into political activism, specifically his efforts to map out primary challengers targeting Trump-supporting Senate and Congressional Republicans.
“When Musk said he was going to map primary challengers to several Senate and Congressional Republicans who voted for the Big Bad bill, I was skeptical that he would do it. I was skeptical that it would be useful...” (01:30)
Kristol expresses initial doubts about the effectiveness of Musk’s strategy, questioning whether focusing on fiscal issues like debt and deficit would resonate with Trump’s base. However, Musk’s pivot towards the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and other MAGA-favored conspiracy theories demonstrates a more potent approach.
“Now he's jumped on this week, the Jeffrey Epstein stuff and some other also MAGA conspiracy, you know, favorites to attack Trump... he really seems to hate him.” (02:15)
Impact of Targeting Scandal and Conspiracy Over Economic Issues
Sam Stein concurs with Kristol’s observation that addressing the Epstein scandal holds more sway over Trump’s supporters than traditional economic critiques. Stein emphasizes the unique motivations of Trump’s coalition, which is deeply entrenched in conspiratorial thinking.
“I do think the Epstein stuff matters way more materially than his criticism of, for instance, the debt or the big beautiful bill... the Trump coalition consists of conspiracists.” (03:50)
This focus on scandal and conspiracies creates doubt among Trump's base, potentially weakening their allegiance. The discussion highlights how scandals like Epstein’s can undermine the narratives that have sustained Trump's political influence.
Strategies for Weakening Trump’s Political Base
Kristol expands on the traditional strategies of peeling away moderate and establishment Republicans from Trump’s influence, noting the limitations of focusing solely on good governance issues.
“If you could show me that we could knock Trump's numbers down 10% by purely good government, the Medicaid, mass deportation, debt and deficit, Ukraine appeals, I would be thrilled. I'm not convinced one can...” (05:17)
He acknowledges that while conventional issues might have limited impact, leveraging conspiratorial scandals presents a viable avenue to erode Trump’s support. This dual approach, combining traditional policy critiques with targeted attacks on conspiracy-fueled narratives, could effectively fragment Trump’s loyalist base.
Challenges and Ethical Considerations with Elon Musk as an Ally
The conversation shifts to the complexities of aligning with Elon Musk, a figure with a morally ambiguous reputation. Stein voices concerns over Musk’s dubious standing and the potential fallout from associating with him.
“He's also. It's not really a morally righteous figure... I find it like both strategically problematic to get too close to him and morally problematic to get too close to him.” (07:10)
Kristol concurs, highlighting Musk’s controversial tendencies and the risks of endorsing someone who may be as loathsome as Trump. He differentiates Musk’s disruptive influence from historical alliances formed to combat authoritarian regimes, emphasizing that supporting Musk does not equate to a righteous battle against a common foe.
“There’s nothing we should do now. Honestly, what I'm thinking is let's say you get some candidates on the ballot... It won't be Elon personally... But that person is going to take votes away, I think, from the Republican. And if you can get a Democrat elected.” (09:00)
The discussion underscores the delicate balance required in leveraging Musk’s actions without fully endorsing his persona, recognizing that while his interventions may disrupt Trump’s base, they come with significant ethical and strategic concerns.
Conspiracism as a Central Ideology in Trumpism
Kristol and Stein delve into the role of conspiracism as a foundational element of Trumpism, arguing that it surpasses traditional ideological motivations in driving voter behavior.
“The conspiracism that almost outweighs the ideology. So as you say, the people who don't vote very often, the people who don't follow politics.” (10:13)
This perspective suggests that combating Trump’s influence requires addressing the underlying conspiratorial beliefs that bind his base, rather than solely focusing on conventional policy disagreements. Stein adds that undermining these conspiracy theories could depress Trump’s voter block, though the challenge lies in effectively infiltrating and countering these entrenched narratives.
Conclusion and Forward-Looking Insights
As the conversation wraps up, Kristol emphasizes the need to remain vigilant and strategic in the face of evolving political tactics within the Republican party. He acknowledges Musk’s disruptive role but maintains caution against forming a solid alliance due to Musk's problematic nature.
“We just, we just watched that sandbox, but we very quietly give Elon a little, you know, a little pat on the... Just a 1/2 of a cheer for Elon, you know.” (11:36)
The episode concludes with a recognition that while unconventional strategies like those employed by Musk hold potential, they must be navigated carefully to avoid unintended consequences. The overarching message is one of strategic adaptability, urging political actors to consider multifaceted approaches to weaken Trump’s hold on the Republican base.
Key Takeaways
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Elon Musk’s Role: Musk’s shift from fiscal critiques to leveraging high-profile scandals like Epstein’s represents a more effective tactic in challenging Trump Republicans.
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Conspiracism as Central Ideology: Addressing conspiratorial beliefs is crucial in diminishing Trump’s influence, as these beliefs are deeply ingrained within his support base.
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Ethical Dilemmas: Aligning with disruptive figures like Musk poses significant ethical and strategic challenges, necessitating a cautious approach.
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Strategic Implications: A multifaceted strategy that combines traditional policy critiques with targeted attacks on conspiratorial narratives may be necessary to weaken Trump’s political stronghold.
Notable Quotes
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Bill Kristol:
“When Musk said he was going to map primary challengers to several Senate and Congressional Republicans who voted for the Big Bad bill, I was skeptical that he would do it. I was skeptical that it would be useful.” (01:30) -
Sam Stein:
“The Trump coalition consists of conspiracists. I mean, Trump is the chief conspiracist... he speaks their language.” (03:50) -
Bill Kristol:
“If you could show me that we could knock Trump's numbers down 10% by purely good government... I'm not convinced one can...” (05:17) -
Sam Stein:
“He's also... not really a morally righteous figure. I find it like both strategically problematic to get too close to him and morally problematic to get too close to him.” (07:10) -
Bill Kristol:
“Conspiracism almost outweighs the ideology... the people who don't vote very often, the people who don't follow politics.” (10:13)
Final Thoughts
Bulwark Takes offers a nuanced exploration of the current political landscape, highlighting the complexities of countering Trump's influence through unconventional means. The dialogue between Sam Stein and Bill Kristol provides valuable insights into the strategic considerations necessary for navigating this turbulent terrain, emphasizing the importance of addressing both ideological and conspiratorial elements within the Republican coalition.