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- [00:00]
A
Hey, what's up, guys? It's Will Sommer. I'm a reporter here at the Bulwark. I had a great talk on Friday with Hawk. He's a commentator who's real big on YouTube and TikTok. We talked about all the stuff that's in the news from Donald Trump's continued refusal to release the Jeffrey Epstein files, those missing minutes on the tape, Candace Owens lawsuit that she's facing from French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte over whether Brigitte is trans. Candace Owens looks like she's in a lot of trouble for that one, so it was great. Bridget breaking it down with Hawk.
- [00:27]
B
The guy on screen with me is a guy named Will Sommer who is a columnist for the Bull Work. And I was so happy when Colin contacted me this morning because I've been a fan of your work for many, many years. I used to listen to your, your Fever Dreams podcast with Swin Suba sang all the time. So I've been following you for many years and for, for context for everybody. And tell me if I get any of this wrong. Will, yeah, for many, many years has been steeped in the world of right wing conspiracy theories and actually wrote a book two or three years ago called Trust the Plan about the whole QAnon thing. And that's been a big area of interest for me for the last decade or so, especially just with all of that stuff. So how are you doing today, man? Thanks for the invite to do this. I appreciate it.
- [01:26]
A
Yeah, of course. Well, hey, thanks for having me on and thanks for everyone for joining the chat. Like I said, this is kind of a new experience for me, so it's pretty wild, but I really appreciate everyone checking it out. And yeah, I've enjoyed so many of your videos as well, Hawk. So it's good to sort of meet you on the live here.
- [01:43]
B
That's awesome, man. That's a, that's a big compliment to me because I, you know, I mean, I'm just a guy, you know, I'm just, I'm a trial lawyer and I've been a political junkie my whole life. And I started making TikToks about four years ago talking about politics and news and the law and, you know, now here I am hanging out with Will Sommer. This is a good deal.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah, so, I mean, so, yeah, lots of, obviously lots to discuss. So, yeah, happy to be here.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah. So I read your article this morning on, on Candace Owens. I mean, so for backstory for everybody, Candace Owens over the last year or two has made a huge part of her platform the allegation that the President, or the, the President Macron of France. She has alleged that President Macron's wife Bridget is trans, was born a man, and has occasionally made the allegation that Macron's wife is actually his father.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah, just a little thing like that.
- [02:56]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so within the last week or so, they sued her in the state of Delaware for defamation and I'm sure some other claims, but she made like an eight part documentary on this. Did you watch that whole thing?
- [03:18]
A
You know, I, I will admit I did not watch all of it. I watched a couple episodes of it and you know, it starts, it gets, you know, like I said, it gets into like medieval cults and all this stuff. And I mean, yeah, I guess the key thing to say here is that like you can really sum it up as like Candace Owens's documentary about how Brigitte Macron is trans. But really it's, it's, and this is a, what I get into in the article is it's so much crazier than, than like I even, I didn't initially realize when you start watching it and you can see, oh well, this is why they're suing, because it's, you know, not just that Macron's wife is trans, but maybe, as you said, maybe that Macron's wife is actually his father or that Macron was brainwashed by the CIA, or that they're part of this kind of centuries old cult. I mean, all these various crimes and you know, it's always interesting to me when these kind of right wing media figures I follow when they get to the point where it's like, oh, they might actually face consequences and maybe you can't just say people are in cults or whatever. So. So it's an interesting one.
- [04:21]
B
Well, especially in context of what happened with Fox News and Dominion voting machines after the 2020 election. I mean, Fox News had to pay out almost $800 million, which they did voluntarily, that didn't even go to trial. So I mean, I did a couple of tick tocks about this after the McCrones filed their lot. So this happens sometimes on Tick Tock.
- [04:45]
A
I was gonna say, okay, that's, that's.
- [04:48]
B
Solely at the discretion of the people in the comments. They get to do that to us. Yeah, it's cool. I did a couple tiktoks. I haven't read the complaint yet, but I was just like, she better hope that she's not wrong because she's made money off of this presumably a significant amount. And if she can't prove her claims, she's going to face some very serious financial consequences from this.
- [05:23]
A
Yeah. And you know, I think it's also relevant to this platform in particular because, you know, like, these claims have gotten really big on YouTube, but also on Tik Tok Tock. And they're, they're people kind of consume them as, as these kind of conspiracy theory entertainments and I think they've been really successful for her career. But it's really funny when you actually look at the claims where, because you think, I, I, I often if someone is making a claim with like enough fervor around it, I kind of think like, well, maybe they're right, you know, maybe I, you know, I'll take a look at what they're saying, but it's like, it's such a crazy thing to say. They must have something that they're basing that on. But when you look at it, it's often like, you might say, like, okay, well, Brigitte Macron has like three daughters who look just like her. So you might think, you know, she probably had these kids. But can someone says, well, no, actually Brigitte, like male Brigitte Macron is the father of those girls with a woman named, who was named Brigitte. And it's like, well, that, no, that's Brigitte, that woman you're talking about there. That. Or they'll say, well, actually she's her brother in disguise. Then it's like, well, how do you account for all these pictures of them at the inaugurations with her brother? And they just say, right in the same room together. Yeah, yes, yes.
- [06:34]
B
You know, one of, I was live with Tim Miller last Friday and one of the things that I said to him is, I said, you know, I hate that for me personally, like the impact of a lot of the stuff over the last decade is it, it I can kind of be like, well, maybe that might be true, I don't know. And it's like that I can see the kind of conspiracy theory susceptibility kind of seeping into my own brain.
- [07:04]
A
Oh, completely. I, I fall for this stuff. I mean, I have that initial moment and then I'll like describe it to my wife or something and she'll, she'll say like, that sounds insane, you know, or, or like, like James o' Keefe, who does all the Right Wing videos. He'll say, I have the ultimate bombshell coming tomorrow. And I go, oh my gosh, okay, 8pm that's when it's Going to come out. And then it comes out, and I go, oh, it's nothing like the last thousand things he did.
- [07:29]
B
Well, what was the latest thing that he did? Because I know he made a dramatic announcement, and then he was like, I have to disappear for a week.
- [07:35]
A
Oh, my God, he did this thing. Yeah, he was implying that he was going to be, like, assassinated. Like, it was one of these. Like, I need to go off the grid. I can't post. You know, I'm hiding from the deep state. And also, like. Like, his. His slogan now is like, your price is your life. Like. Like, it's like, you can't buy me. Like, you'd have to kill me first. And then what? I can't even remember what it was. It was such a small thing, and everyone was like, boo. You know, his fans. It's like the this. The meme that I think just sums up our moment so much is that, like, the Fell for it again award. And. Yeah, like, people just, like, falling for it just relentlessly.
- [08:13]
B
It's Charlie Brown and Lucy in the football.
- [08:17]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [08:18]
B
100%. So, yeah. So when I first became aware of you and your work, it was within the context of, like, all that QAnon stuff was going strong. And you used to go to the conferences, didn't you?
- [08:38]
A
Oh, my God, yes. Yeah. So sort of the backstory there is. I. I mean, I would go. I mean, QAnon was so fascinating to me because at every point, I felt like I was like, wow, this is so crazy. It certainly will not get bigger than this. I mean, in 2017, I went to, like, a QAnon march in D.C. with a couple hundred people, and I thought, this is totally insane. Like, I thought this was a thing with, like, five people who were interested in it. And then, of course, it went on to be January 6th and all these other things. But for my book, I went to a CUNA conference in Dallas, and I signed up with my real name. But I felt like it was getting to the point where QAnon people would recognize me. And so I thought, you know, I'll just, like, grow up my beard. I'll wear a baseball cap, sunglasses. And then, so just. People don't instantly go, hey, get him out of here. And then I was sitting. I got a couple of days in, and then I was watching one of the speeches. I started noticing, like, a lot of, like, that they had this. This kind of paramilitary called the First Amendment Praetorians, and they were sitting around me. And then Michael Flynn gets on stage, and he Goes, you know, this media. There's a bunch of scumbags. In fact, there's a reporter who snuck in today, and I look around like, oh, someone's in trouble. Someone's about to get busted. And then, you know, then they grab me. I mean, there's this video, Andrew Callahan, the of, you know, Channel five, he was there, and he captures this video of me just getting frog marched out. There's such a weird crew. There's like this shirtless guy screaming at me. I mean, it was very like, you know, it's kind of the QAnon Shaman set.
- [10:09]
B
Wow.
- [10:09]
A
And, you know, I should add, I thought it was a great idea to stay in the same hotel as everyone to like, soak up the color. But then that meant I had like one night where I had to just like hide in my room because these people are like on the. They're like, we gotta get him. So.
- [10:23]
B
Jesus Christ, man. I mean, how. How is it for you having to like, coexist with all of this stuff as your work?
- [10:34]
A
Yeah, you know, people. This comes up a lot. And I wish, like, you know, people say, how do you stay sane? I mean, because I really, like so much of it is just consuming a huge amount of it. And so like, I like when I do chores or like, I'm listening to these videos and especially now that everything's on video now, it's much harder to skim. And so you really have to kind of like dig in. And so, you know, I come from a. I was like a young Republican in Texas as a kid. And so I love. I mean, I was watching like the O'Reilly Factor and all this stuff. And that's kind of my. How I got into this because I just really enjoyed consuming conservative media. And then the. I, like, became much saner, I guess, but. But I still like, just loved these characters. And so I just have a really high tolerance for it, man.
- [11:19]
B
I mean, so being raised in that stuff, you kind of speak their language a little bit then.
- [11:23]
A
Exactly. And you know, I. I feel like that's how I can tell. Like, I'm so interested in kind of the ideological shifts or as we're seeing with Epstein, stuff like whether it seems like whatever the spin is sinking in or not, or what people's motivations are, both financially or ideologically. And the other thing I would add is this is such a fun thing to cover because the people like the figures in it, the right wing media stars, they are. They're constantly feuding and they are. They love to have articles negative articles written about their enemies. And so I've had people who will say, you know, will Summer's the biggest, you know, pos, whatever. And then they'll call me up and say, you know, you might want to look up that, you know, X person, you know, just got arrested. You might want to look up their court filing, my rival in QAnon land, stuff like that.
- [12:10]
B
Wow. Or somebody calls you up and says, hey, I've got a hot tip. Tim Pool is bald.
- [12:16]
A
Yes, exactly. Well, this is, this is, this is what passes for breaking news in my, in my community.
- [12:27]
B
I just, I saw, I posted it on my other page yesterday. He was being interviewed by somebody who was like, I'll give you 200 bucks in cash right now if you take your hat off.
- [12:38]
A
And he did it.
- [12:39]
B
And he did it. I was like, credit to him, man. I don't think he's ever done that voluntarily.
- [12:46]
A
No, he, you know, there was one incident at a rally in D.C. where someone like snatched it off his head and it was, it was a whole thing. But, you know, would you believe that this is not the first time one of these people has taken money to reveal that they're bald? Now, I'm, I'm tracking, I'm tracking this one down, but it's my understanding that one of these other right wing personalities always wears a hat. I, you know, that basically he was like, chat, if you give me 300 bucks, I'll take my hat off. And then he does. And everyone's like, oh no, he's cooked. He's chopped, I guess.
- [13:14]
B
Chopped. I mean, watching what has happened over the last month with the Epstein stuff, I mean, since that, I think it was Sunday, July 5, when Pam, Bonnie and the DOJ put out that memo, like late on a Sunday. I'm sure expecting that no one would see it. And it's dominated every single news cycle ever since.
- [13:40]
A
It's crazy. I don't think we've had really something like this dominate the news cycle, you know, maybe even half as long in the Trump era. I mean, it is so crazy. And, you know, I think it's gotten to the point where the Democrats have sort of figured out ways that they can kind of try to keep it going. But, but I think, you know, it seems like the administration, the Washington Post, have a story that administration hopes blown over. But then, you know, number one, I don't think it has. But number two, I think Trump, he doesn't get it. Like, he clearly doesn't get. And you know, people like Steve Bannon will say he doesn't get why this is important to us, but he also doesn't get how he should be talking to get rid of it. And so he's saying things like, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein stole my employ. Things that are like, what, you know, you're not talking like an innocent guy.
- [14:24]
B
Yeah. And one of the, one of the things that you mentioned in your article today, that's up on the bulwark. Everybody go follow the bulwark.
- [14:35]
A
Thank you.
- [14:37]
B
You were referencing the QAnon stuff and, you know, you were describing the cabal, and it's all Democrats, Hollywood liberals, elites, and like the billionaire Democrat donor class and all of those things. And I just, it struck me that there's carryover from that into the Epstein thing, because that's what everybody on the right thinks. The Epstein client list is those same exact people.
- [15:06]
A
Yes. And, you know, I mean, Epstein was like, you know, the best conspiracy theories have some element of truth to them. And so Epstein was such a huge. His death particularly was such a huge moment for QAnon because it was like a really weird thing. And I think it's really unexplained and suspicious and, and so, so, like. But in many ways, I think when the QAnon brand became tarnished, I think when people were like, okay, talking about Q means you're insane. You know, essentially, you know, you couldn't really recruit a lot of new people to it, but you could still talk about pedophile cabals and things like that. And so that energy went into. Went into Epstein. And so then you had this. Basically, these people thought, like, this is going to be Christmas. All the people they hate, we're going to be exposed as pedophiles and arrested and stuff. And then suddenly it's. It's about what's up with Trump. You know, I mean, that's, that's why they're upset.
- [15:55]
B
Well, they, they were going to be arrested by Cash Patel and Dan Bongino.
- [16:00]
A
Yes, yes.
- [16:01]
B
Two of the leading proponents of that whole thing. That's like, yes, our guys are running the FBI now. And then they're going on Fox News and they're going, eh, Yeah.
- [16:11]
A
I mean, I mean, it literally is like there's, they're saying, like, there's not gonna be any Christmas. You know, you can't have fun. And then now it's starting to look like, oh, you know, if we keep crying about this more, like, what are we gonna find out about. About Trump? So it's, you know, I mean, this thing has been such a disaster. If I can just share. You know, this is such a sort of. Sort of a tangent to the larger thing. But like, Cash Patel's girlfriend is now, she, she. She's being accused of being a Mossad agent who's like a honeypot and all this. She just had to go on Megyn Kelly and say, like, I'm not, not Israeli, whatever. But, like, that is how far this is spun out. That Cash Patel's much younger girlfriend has to come out and be like, you know, stop attacking me right wingers. That, you know, even though my boyfriend played a huge role in hyping all this stuff up in the first place.
- [16:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, they, they've. They've been talking about this stuff for so many years and running on this stuff for so many years that I really do think the base is just like, okay, we put you back in office. Where's our payout?
- [17:13]
A
You know, completely. And, you know, I think so much of this stuff is like, the reality is, you know, if we look at the big beautiful bill or whatever, I mean, so much of that is like just payoffs for rich people. Like the base, if you're not like a mega wealthy person, you're not getting that much. And so what they want is this visceral. They want the arrests, they want these big moments. And in fairness to them, they've been told, for now, now we're the new. The new thing is that Obama committed treason. They're going to arrest Obama, whatever. And so you have this like, hype cycle, and yet it never comes to fruition. And so they're starting to say, like, hey, like, when do I get something here?
- [17:49]
B
Yeah, well, and I think, I think the Epstein client list, they expected that was going to be the source material for mass arrests of people on the left.
- [18:01]
A
Oh, completely. Like, that was going to be, you know, not just Bill Clinton, not just people with actual Epstein connections. But they thought, I mean, these fake client lists that would circulate, it would be people who are like, you know, it's like David Hogg or, you know, it'd be random people. It's like that, that person wasn't even born. You know, like, it's like I can tell you definitively that is fake because it's these, you know, these young Gen Z Democrats they hate so much. And so like, they, they really thought it was going to be a huge deal and that's why they wanted the files to come out. And then, you know, it's, you know, the other thing I would say is like, the the birthday letter Trump, you know, reportedly wrote to abstinence. It's so crazy because not only then is it revealed that he's like friends with him, but he's, he's really closely connected to him. And so that's why, I mean, they really tried to shut it down.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah. And you know, this stuff pops up on the left as well. Last week there was a photo circulating of Donald Trump, you know, kind of embracing what appeared to be a 14 year old young blonde girl. And all kinds of people were sharing that on the left and that's saying, and they were saying, that's, that's Pam Bondi, that's Trump and Pam Bondi. And they were hanging out with Epstein. And I'm like, he's 79, she's 60. Like the math, the math doesn't work. And I mean, I made a couple videos about that. I'm like, the math doesn't work on this, guys. You're, you're, you're really not helping things. And I got attacked for that.
- [19:30]
A
Oh, I know people, I mean, you know, I mean it is like on one hand people say, oh, well, don't you think the left has all these problems? And it's like, it's really nothing like, like the right. And you don't have, you know, politicians embracing it at like a Trumpian level. But on the other hand, yeah, people do get very excited about these things and you know, you gotta say, and good on you for saying it. You know, sometimes you gotta say like, you know, you know, folks like this isn't even like I, I needed to, you know, get it on like a spyglass and figure this out. You know, it's just modicum of thinking can figure it out, but people want to have their fun.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah. And I mean, also I think going Back to the QAnon thing, I think especially, and I mean what really kind of showed me this concept was, I think it was also back in 2018 when Adam Serwer wrote that first column called the Cruelty is the Point and was discussing how Trump supporters form community with each other through cruelty and through being a part of something like QAnon. They feel like it's a community for them. I mean, how, how strong is that component for a lot of these people?
- [20:39]
A
I think there's a lot to that. I mean, I think that's like a really good, it explains a lot. You know, when I, when I, when I consume this stuff and it's people talking about, you know, oh, like look at this video. I mean, you know, we saw this with, I mean, the Department of Homeland Security will put out these pictures now of look at these crying immigrants that were deporting, you know, or we're going to make it a meme, you know, and they know that's because the, some of the bases is they like that, you know, or yeah, you know, whenever you'll see in the news there'll be some straight up the awful treatment of, you know, some immigrant and people say like, this is what I voted for. Like, yes, I love seeing this and I think it's this, I mean, Trump is obviously at the head of that and I think he gives people permission to sort of give in to their nastier instincts and they, they relish it.
- [21:24]
B
Well, and he's been tweeting conspiracy stuff this year since getting back in.
- [21:30]
A
Oh, I'm, I mean, you know, he's constantly posting, I mean, look, I mean I think one of the under reported stories and in some ways, like what do you do with it? But I mean he is constantly posting QAnon stuff pretty regularly. Like he's posted just this year pictures on of, you know, a picture of him with a Q button and stuff. I mean, yeah, he might be like the last hardcore QAnon believer. Know, I, I think a lot of them have like in terms of people who are still saying like where we go, when we go, all, all that stuff.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, what's, what's, what's Mike Flynn doing these days?
- [22:01]
A
Oh, well, he thinks, I mean, he's back. I mean, he's, you know, this whole, there's this crazy diversion, right, with the Obama trees and stuff. And so now Flynn sees this as, as his kind of revenge moment. And so he's tweeting at Obama officials like, you know, you know, say your prayers, you know, it's over for you, all this kind of stuff. But you know, it is curious to me that he isn't in the administration in any capacity as far as I know. I mean, you would think that's a guy they would want back. But I don't know, maybe the, you know, at this QAnon convention I mentioned, he like auctioned off all this QAnon gear, like you know, the QAnon quilts and all this stuff. And I don't know, maybe they thought that that was a little, a little too far, man.
- [22:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I mean, who's, who's been more loyal to Trump than Mike Flynn even during the four years he was out of office, man?
- [22:57]
A
I mean he, yeah, no one, I mean, yeah, you would think you, you know, he's like a hardcore believer. And you know, this is the, these are kind of these classic characters. Like his name escapes me at the moment. The guy who was the U.S. attorney in D.C. i mean, these are really hardcore, you know, hardcore Trump's Trump loyalists. And the whole idea is you get them in these positions and they wreak havoc.
- [23:25]
B
And I mean, kind of going back to mentioning Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, I think pretty uniformly, except for a couple of people, really is starting to bear out just the shocking level of incompetence that these people have in these positions. And their complete lack of qualifications is really showing through. I know there's a former FBI guy named Mike Feinberg who got fired because he was still friends with Peter Strzok from the whole Russiagate thing. And I read another recent interview with him where he was talking about Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, and he's like, they literally have no idea what they're doing at all. From the moment they walk in the building, they have no idea what's happening or what they're doing.
- [24:14]
A
I mean, all these reports come out, I mean, you know, memorably, Dan Bongino was talking about how mad he was. The New York Times wrote about him, him sparring at judo with FBI agents, you know, coming off worse for wear. But I mean, you know, there are all these stories about, I mean, it's striking to me how just, I mean, if you look at like the, how the Epstein investigation was closed alone, I mean, sticking aside the politics of it, it seems really bumbling. You know, the. Just had this great report about the video that supposedly proved he didn't kill himself in the jail. But in fact, like just CBS from the outside with a few video experts was able to say, well, this doesn't really prove any of that and here's like eight reasons why. And so why didn't the Justice Department do it? You know, it's curious, I think that now there's this, all this pressure Trump's putting on Pam Bondi to indict, you know, John Brennan, indict Obama, whatever, but they can't manage to close this thing. That's not even really a criminal case anym anymore with Epstein. So it's. I think it is, yeah. I mean, exactly what you're saying. Hey, Hawk, I'm gonna have to run soon. Can we do one more question?
- [25:24]
B
Absolutely, yeah.
- [25:26]
A
We're just getting some rainstorms here. I gotta go.
- [25:28]
B
Okay, Now I just. So the McCrones in their lawsuit against Candace Owens are being represented by the firm that got rid of Gawker.
- [25:39]
A
Yes. Well, actually, I have to say, I was wrong about this. Oh, no, I. I had to create the article.
- [25:44]
B
Okay. So we're gonna. We're gonna close out with a bang here.
- [25:47]
A
But. But I will say. I will say they were involved in the Dominion litigation against Fox News on the Dominion side. So. So they're a tough firm. They're. They're. And. And, like, they're very. The lawyers I talked to said, I mean, this is like the heavy artillery. This is not like just sort of some, oh, dunk lawyer that's going to be dismissed pretty easily.
- [26:08]
B
Yeah. It's not Lin Wood.
- [26:11]
A
No, exactly. He's a good character, though. I was. Yeah.
- [26:15]
B
Such an amazing character, man.
- [26:18]
A
I mean, he had this whole issue where it was like, you know, he had this plantation that he had bought, and then all the, you know, he was getting taped arguing with his minions, and it was crazy.
- [26:28]
B
Oh, that's awesome, man. All right, everybody, this is Will Sommer from the Bulwark. Thanks for coming on with me today. I appreciate it very, very much. Everyone go subscribe to the Bull Work at their website and subscribe to Will's articles and newsletters and stuff. Thanks, everybody, for joining us. And thanks again for doing this, Will. I really appreciate it.
- [26:50]
A
Absolutely. Thank you, Hawk. And I love the stuff and really appreciate it, and thank you, everyone, for checking it out.
- [26:55]
B
All right, thanks, everybody. Have a good weekend.
- [26:57]
A
See y' all later.