Bulwark Takes: Epstein Scandal May Destroy MAGA's Dreams (w/ Hawk) – Detailed Summary

Released on August 4, 2025

In this engaging episode of Bulwark Takes, host Will Sommer engages in a deep and insightful conversation with commentator Hawk. The discussion delves into the intertwining realms of conspiracy theories, high-profile lawsuits, and the lasting impact of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal on the MAGA movement. Below is a comprehensive breakdown of their conversation, highlighting key topics, notable quotes, and critical insights.

1. Introduction to Key Topics

Will Sommer kicks off the episode by outlining the main subjects of discussion with Hawk. He mentions Donald Trump's persistent refusal to release the Jeffrey Epstein files, the enigmatic missing minutes on the Epstein tapes, and the recent defamation lawsuit filed by French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte against Candace Owens.

Will Sommer (A) [00:00]: "Donald's continued refusal to release the Jeffrey Epstein files... Candace Owens looks like she's in a lot of trouble for that one..."

Hawk introduces himself, expressing his long-term admiration for Will’s work, especially his coverage of right-wing conspiracy theories and the QAnon phenomenon.

Hawk (B) [00:27]: "I used to listen to your Fever Dreams podcast with Swin Suba sang all the time... I've been a fan for many years."

2. Candace Owens' Defamation Lawsuit Against Macron

The conversation shifts to Candace Owens and her controversial allegations regarding French President Macron and his wife Brigitte. Owens has propagated claims that Brigitte Macron is transgender and even speculated that she might be Macron's father. These statements have led to a defamation lawsuit filed by the Macrons in Delaware.

Hawk (B) [02:17]: "Candace Owens has alleged that President Macron's wife Brigitte is trans and even suggested she might be his father... They sued her for defamation."

Will discusses Owens' documentary, noting its descent into extreme conspiracy theories, including claims about Brigitte Macron being part of a centuries-old cult or being brainwashed by the CIA.

Will Sommer (A) [03:18]: "Candace Owens's documentary about how Brigitte Macron is trans... includes absurd theories like Brigitte being Macron's father or part of a cult."

3. The Role of Social Media and Conspiracy Theories

Both hosts examine how platforms like YouTube and TikTok have become breeding grounds for conspiracy theories, allowing figures like Candace Owens to amplify their unfounded claims. They discuss the financial motivations behind spreading such theories and the potential repercussions Owens faces if her claims are proven false.

Will Sommer (A) [04:20]: "These claims have gotten really big on YouTube and TikTok... She's made money off of this, and if she can't prove her claims, she faces serious financial consequences."

Hawk draws parallels to Fox News' litigation over Dominion voting machines, highlighting how defamatory claims on social media can lead to substantial legal and financial repercussions.

Hawk (B) [04:45]: "Fox News had to pay out almost $800 million... similarly, Candace's lawsuit could have significant consequences."

4. QAnon’s Influence and Evolution

The discussion transitions to QAnon, with both hosts reflecting on its rise and transformation. Will shares his personal experiences attending QAnon events and his subsequent realization of the movement's dangerous intensity.

Will Sommer (A) [08:37]: "I attended a QAnon march in D.C. in 2017 and thought it was totally insane... It escalated to events like January 6th."

They explore how the decline of QAnon branding has led its followers to gravitate towards other conspiracy theories, such as those surrounding Epstein.

Hawk (B) [15:06]: "Epstein was such a huge moment for QAnon... when QAnon got tarnished, the energy moved to Epstein."

5. The Epstein Scandal’s Impact on the MAGA Movement

Will and Hawk delve into how the Epstein scandal has overshadowed previous narratives within the MAGA movement. They discuss Donald Trump's alleged connections to Epstein and the broader implications for his supporters.

Will Sommer (A) [13:40]: "The Epstein scandal has dominated every single news cycle since July 5... It hasn't blown over as the administration hoped."

Hawk highlights Trump's persistent attempts to deflect blame, referencing his bizarre claims that Epstein "stole his mind" and suggesting internal disarray within the administration.

Hawk (B) [14:23]: "Trump is saying things like, 'Jeffrey Epstein stole my employ,' which doesn’t portray him as innocent."

6. Incompetence Within the Current Administration

The hosts critique the current administration's handling of the Epstein investigation, pointing to figures like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. They argue that these individuals lack the necessary qualifications and competence, exacerbating the administration's struggles to manage the fallout from the scandal.

Hawk (B) [23:24]: "Cash Patel and Dan Bongino are showing a shocking level of incompetence... They have no idea what they're doing."

Will underscores the bungled nature of the investigation, citing CBS experts' dismissal of supposed evidence against Epstein’s suicide.

Will Sommer (A) [24:14]: "The Epstein investigation seems really bumbling... CBS experts found eight reasons why the 'proof' didn't hold."

7. The Role of Community and Cruelty in Conspiracy Groups

Hawk references Adam Serwer’s concept from "The Cruelty is the Point," exploring how communities like QAnon foster connections through shared cruelty and the desire for collective action against perceived enemies.

Hawk (B) [20:39]: "Trump supporters form community through cruelty and being part of something like QAnon... It's a strong component."

Will adds that Trump’s rhetoric empowers followers to act on their instincts, often leading to the relish of targeting marginalized groups or enemies.

Will Sommer (A) [21:24]: "Trump gives people permission to sort of give in to their nastier instincts and they relish it."

8. The Persistence of QAnon Ideals in Trump’s Rhetoric

Despite the waning influence of QAnon as a branded movement, Will notes that Trump continues to endorse its underlying conspiratorial themes. He points out Trump’s ongoing posts related to QAnon, keeping its spirit alive among his base.

Will Sommer (A) [21:30]: "He is constantly posting QAnon stuff... like a picture of him with a Q button. He's like the last hardcore QAnon believer."

Hawk discusses the diminishing yet persistent loyalty among Trump’s hardcore supporters, emphasizing the fragmented yet enduring nature of these conspiracy networks.

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Hawk touches upon the litigious battle between the Macron family and Candace Owens, noting the heavyweight legal representation Owens is facing. This serves as a testament to the escalating legal tensions surrounding right-wing media figures.

Will Sommer (A) [25:27]: "They were involved in the Dominion litigation against Fox News... they're a tough firm."

The hosts sign off by encouraging listeners to subscribe to The Bulwark for more in-depth analyses and updates on these pressing issues.

Hawk (B) [26:50]: "Thanks for coming on with me today... subscribe to The Bulwark and Will's articles."

Key Takeaways:

• Candace Owens’ Defamation Lawsuit highlights the increasing legal risks for media figures propagating unfounded conspiracy theories.

• Social Media’s Role in spreading and normalizing conspiracy theories like QAnon and Epstein-related claims continues to shape public discourse.

• The Epstein Scandal remains a central and disruptive force within the MAGA movement, challenging its narratives and leadership.

• Administration Incompetence under current figures like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino exacerbates the fallout from high-profile scandals.

• Community Dynamics within conspiracy groups rely heavily on shared adversity and cruelty, fostering deep-seated loyalty despite external criticisms.

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a thorough examination of the current intersection between conspiracy theories, political litigation, and the enduring challenges facing the MAGA movement amidst the Epstein scandal. For listeners seeking a nuanced understanding of these complex issues, this discussion provides valuable insights and compelling analysis.