← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. And I'm grateful to be here with Stacey Williams, who last October, I guess, spoke out about an incident with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump at the Trump Hotel many years ago that I probably bet you wish you weren't talking about. Still something that happened back in the 1990s. But I appreciate your courage in speaking out and coming here to talk about a little bit.
- [00:26]
B
Thanks. Yeah, it's not a lot of fun, contrary to what some folks say. But I think it's, like I said, it's really important. And I think also when I saw that Virginia died by suicide a few weeks ago, I thought, oh, you know, I can't just sit back.
- [00:44]
A
Yeah. For people who don't know Virginia was one of the Epstein accusers, it almost feels. Victims, I guess, would be much more accurate term. And I mean, maybe the most horrific of all of them, I guess, maybe not. That's hard to, you know, want to compare. But her story was just particularly tragic.
- [01:02]
B
Yeah, it was horrendous. Yeah.
- [01:05]
A
So, okay, well, for people who don't know and aren't familiar, let's just kind of contextualize what was happening here. And then I want to talk in particular mostly to you about kind of what victims and what other women in your shoes want out of, you know, this whole. This, you know, this discussion about what. What the government should be doing with regards to Epstein. But to contextualize it, you were. You're a swimsuit model in the 90s, is that right?
- [01:32]
B
Well, I was in. I think. I think people call me that because I did, you know, I did the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue for like eight years and it was like some kind of record at the time. But I did, you know, Elvo Grunway, everything. I lived in Paris and New York.
- [01:44]
A
That's an important record. Yeah, I guess I pretended as a closeted gay. I pretended to like this swimsuit edition. You know, I'd get it and, you know, I'd sit around for a little while and, you know, I'd have it out so in case nobody had any questions. But, you know, I didn't really linger, so I don't. I don't recall, you know, your eight year run.
- [02:03]
B
Well, you know what's funny is that I've met men over the years. I mean, I guess we're of the. If we're gen, I'm gen X. So, you know, there are men who, I think, who are exers who couldn't come out. And so many of them told me that I was their beard. And I'm so truly, like, deeply honored. They had posters, everything.
- [02:22]
A
So, yeah, that's great.
- [02:25]
B
It's always been a great alliance.
- [02:26]
A
That was Natalie Portman for me. Thank you, Natalie. Anyway, Stacy, the.
- [02:32]
B
How dare you.
- [02:33]
A
Sorry. You know, different elder millennial version. So during that period, I guess you had a brief period where you're dating Jeffrey. How did that even come to pass? Like. And how long was it? And what was just sort of the circumstance?
- [02:49]
B
So I was introduced to Jeffrey by my agent at the time, Faith Cates, who owns Next Models. And thanks for nothing, Kate. Faith and she, you know, all those agencies, they hosted a lot of dinners with models and powerful men. And so she got, you know, it was a night she said, let's, you know, we're getting a group together for dinner on the Upper east side. And I went, and Jeffrey was there. And the interesting thing about Jeffrey, which is so funny, be like, well, he's such a creep. Obviously, he's like the most renowned scumbag on the planet, but at the time, he was one of the few men who just looked me in the eye and had a political conversation with me and didn't condescend. And I think that's why I got interested in him and why we engaged. And it went from there. And then kind of forgot about it, though. Didn't exchange numbers or anything. And a couple months later, Donald Trump had. He owned the Plaza at one point, the hotel, and he was throwing a Christmas party at the Plaza. And again, Faith said, you know, I think we had like three parties that night, and we were just being festive and having fun, getting dressed up for reasons other than being photographed and enjoying the season. And we went to the Plaza and, you know, Donald was there, and he walked me over. He's like, you know, Jeffrey, right? And, yeah, so that's. Then at that moment, we talked longer and I gave him my number and we dated after that for a few months. You know, I was traveling. I was very busy. And so. So it wasn't like, you know, we're seeing each other seriously for months. I mean, it was a period of four months, and I was traveling. And it took a while to. For all the little data points to line up about how utterly batshit crazy everything was. And then I was. And then I was out, you know, then I was like, yeah, I'm done. This is insane.
- [04:35]
A
Yeah. And so. And then the incident in question that you kind of spoke about last time was, I guess during that three to four month period, Jeffrey took you to Trump's office. And these were typically noteworthy because it's a similar story to what Maria Farmer told to the FBI in 1996. So that would be. Then two years later, three years later, she's underage at the time, so even creepier and worse in a lot of ways.
- [05:02]
B
Oh, God, yeah, absolutely.
- [05:05]
A
But it's interesting. It's sort of a corroborating type thing because the story is similar. Like, I guess that he went by his office at Trump Tower. So, I don't know. Talk about that.
- [05:13]
B
Yeah, we were taking a walk. We met at. He was living in a brownstone on the Upper east side. I don't think it's the same one that got raided. I don't know. But it was a very large, very fancy brownstone with butlers and multiple floors and everything. And that's where we would meet, and then we would take walks. And we were walking down Fifth Avenue one day, and he said, and I'd already met Donald a couple of times over the years, and he's like, oh, yeah, Donald keeps talking about you, and let's stop by and say hi. And then that's when the incident happened. We went up and he groped me, and Jeffrey. And Donald kept talking while he groped me, and I froze. I was in shock. And then Jeffrey got angry and berated me for allowing him to do it afterwards. And it's a laugh because it's so insane. Sorry. And, yeah, and then. And it was not long after that that I, you know, I said, I can't. I can't do this. In fact, I very. I said to him, I said, you need. You need to see a psychiatrist. Something's seriously wrong with you.
- [06:08]
A
Yeah, he got angry at you, to me. And again, who the hell knows was people how to get inside the brains of somebody as sick as him. But, like, it does feel like, again, we get the data point of where he brought Farmer there a couple years later, and then she ends up bringing that up to the FBI. And the fact that he wasn't mad at Trump and that they continued to have a relationship and that he's mad at you kind of indicates that there's some kind of. I don't know whether it was a game or.
- [06:37]
B
Yeah, it felt like it. I mean, I had detailed to Jeffrey that I had a bit of a reputation in the industry for being combative in the industry with the predators that were in the industry as well as the guys on the streets. And, I mean, I have friends that reach out to me and said, Remember that time you like beat the shit out of that guy in Paris, you know, and maced him or whatever. It's like, you know, I was in full combat mode in those days. And so. And I had told that to Jeffrey. I remember telling him that was on my mind a lot because, you know, I was living in a war zone. It was such a wild west, you know, back then, like 13 year olds modeling, you know, there's like, you know now, now you get booked for a job, you're 13 years old, and there's like a tutor on set and there's you know, all kinds of oversight. It was truly the wild west. So. So we were really unprotected. And. And so he knew that I would download. I downloaded that to him. And so I think he. And I could be wrong, but I think he was so angry because I was walked in. I think he told Donald that, you know, I was one person who wasn't gonna let him get away with the handsy stuff. And, and I did because. Because of the way, you know, like I said it, everything he does is hidden in its brazenness. Right. So if I'd been in a dark alley and I had been in the past or a subway or something where someone's grabbing me or being inappropriate, I fight back, I get out the mace or whatever. And I had some self defense classes, but. But you know, in broad daylight with an assistant going, you're like, this can't be happening. I mean, it's just like, is this a Kitty Genovese somewhat. Kitty Genovese esque. Right. Which is. Yeah, it's relevant to that where like, as long as everyone looks around and the room's filling with smoke and it's like, well, no, there's not, you know, no one's moving, so everything must be okay. It's akin to that. So I froze. And, and, and so that's why it felt like it was very much an arranged kind of situation. And why Jeffrey got mad. Who knows what, you know, whether it was a bet and he lost money, I have no idea.
- [08:41]
A
Right. Hidden in his brazenness is very well put. I know it's like, I know it's his political strategy about a lot of his law. It's everything but like. Yeah, but also just like the Access Hollywood tape and he admits that. He tells you what the strategy and he says, I just, you know, Gravel. Yeah. And to me it's just the interesting thing with the. On the Trump side of it is just that, like, it just. Who knows if it's a game, whatever. But it shows a comfort and like a. Some. A. Some kind of, you know, kind of friendship bromance. Right. Where they. Where this kind of stuff happens. Right. And, like. And that for Jeffrey, mad at you. Right. Shows, like, that in their relationship, that type of behavior is accepted and common.
- [09:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. They were not mere acquaintances.
- [09:24]
A
Yeah. So to the Jeffrey side of it, you know, and all this stuff gets wrapped up in the politics, Right. And particularly now. And it's like, you know, why do people want to see. So it's so sucks, like, why do people want to see this? It's like, not because they care. That's because they want accountability for the criminals. Because there are other criminals besides Jeffrey Epstein and Gillian Maxwell here, other perpetrators and collaborators. And so at some level, some people wanted that, but then it sort of gets warped and molded into, well, we want to see because it might hurt. So. And so. And we want to see. But so from your perspective, like, what do you want to see? Right. What would be the value of this? What would be useful?
- [10:09]
B
So one of the things that's been sort of nagging is that there was a point, and this was kind of like the very end for me when I stopped dating Jeffrey, when he looked at me and said, I have video of you undressing in a bedroom in the brownstone. And it was something along the lines of, it's the most beautiful thing I own, or it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And that just, you know, that was when there were. I mean, being groped, you know, being led into Donald's office to be groped by him was. Was bad enough, and I probably was young enough and confused enough where maybe I was still questioning. But when he said to me, I have video of you undressed in a bedroom in my house. And it's my. I was. I just. It was so creepy and so dark. And so, you know, I've wondered ever since, where is that video? Was he lying? Does it exist? I know everyone's very focused on lists, right? You know, where the lists. But my question is, you know, what's in all those files that the government has, the DOJ has, and, you know, is there video of me? I'd like to know if it exists. I think I speak for all the other, you know, victims who have come forward and. And wonder if there's video of them. I think we'd like to know. Absolutely. There's no video.
- [11:43]
A
Or.
- [11:43]
B
Or there is, and this is where it is. You know, we just want More answers to have that just floating out there. And then when I saw Alan Dershowitz's piece about how. No, no, no, there were just, you know, videos for security reasons, I thought, well, that completely flies in the face of what Jeffrey said to me. That doesn't line up. So I have a lot of questions. And I'm sure, you know, the other. The other victims, too. So I do believe that the government owes all of us some facts and confirmation that videos exist. I mean, I certainly wouldn't want any victims exposed if there's video of them being abused. But we need to get beyond the list, I think, and we need to hear about those videos. I want to know.
- [12:31]
A
I mean, for closure purposes. Just like, you know.
- [12:34]
B
Yeah. Yes, yes. Well, I mean, you know, there were. There are these, you know, horrible acts perpetrated on women and girls, and the government's interviewing the trafficker.
- [12:49]
A
I'm like, crazy.
- [12:51]
B
Maybe cutting a deal. Trafficker, not us. Maybe cutting a deal. Who knows? But, you know, I think, like, there is nothing transparent about this, and we'd like some more transparency as victims, and the government owes us that. What is the Department of Justice for? The word justice means you don't interview the trafficker. You interview the victims. Right. Or be honest with the victims. Sorry, I cut you off.
- [13:16]
A
Justice. No, no, please, no. Justice for the people. Not for Donald Trump. Right.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah. And pedophiles are, you know, people who are doing terrible things to women and girls.
- [13:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. If that's the case on the videos. Just one more kind of point about this, because something I've been thinking about lately is that you mentioned that the Dershow Woods's explanation is. It's security footage. Right. Well, Vance, this is a private conversation. So some Amaga podcaster said this, but he said they had dinner together. There's no reason to believe he'd be making this up. And he said that he asked Vance about the videos and that Vance says that it's commercial porn, that they don't have actually private, secret videos. And it's like, okay, who the hell knows? I don't know. And that seems extremely unlikely that Jeffrey Epstein, who was committing hundreds of sex crimes and had lots of video cameras in his house, wanted commercial porn instead. Who the hell knows with this guy? But it shows that they're telling all these different stories and they're not. And there's no transparency about what the truth is with either the public or the victims.
- [14:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's awful. I agree. And there are a lot of victims. Right? I mean, I don't understand it. And as for the Vance quote, I mean, I. They wouldn't surprise me if there was. If he had everything, you know, he had a collection of everything. We just want answers. There's no transparency. There's none. And again, to go to think that you're going to clear all this up by interviewing the trafficker, the convicted trafficker. That's the solution.
- [14:50]
A
Just before we sat down, she said that she has information, that she's given them information on 100 people. And I don't know, you know, okay, there certainly are a lot more collaborators out there and co conspirators, but like, there can't be any deal for Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean, this was the person that was the ringleader of all of it. So that's not justice.
- [15:11]
B
We are so far past. I mean, like truth. We're so post truth and everything is so, you know, we're in the upside down. So I mean, nothing would surprise me, but that would be truly horrific. I can't imagine anyone could stomach her getting out. But, you know, we'll. We'll see. We still need, all of us still need transparency. And if there are videos, you know, as per what Jeffrey said to me, I want to know.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah. And others.
- [15:41]
B
Yeah.
- [15:42]
A
There's two other random things that come out. I'm just curious. So like, you, you came out, you talked about this, I guess the first last year before the election, was it. I mean, at that point you could have just wanted to move on with your life. And what. Was there something in particular that. That prompted it or that made you feel like you needed to say something?
- [16:01]
B
Yeah. The possibility of him winning. I don't want the guy who sexually assaulted me in the White House. And I know that his campaign tried to spin it as, oh, a week or so before the election. And just to be clear as to how that happened, I am in a documentary that is out on the festival circuit right now about the woman who founded the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and how she. It's actually a feminist story, believe it or not. It's a fantastic film. It's called beyond the Gaze, about how she was treated as the first female editor at Sports Illustrated and that old boys club and how many glass ceilings she broke. And then when she had like, literally saved the magazine, she went to her boss and asked for a raise because she couldn't afford childcare. And he said, you have a husband, you don't need a raise.
- [16:50]
A
And she.
- [16:51]
B
At one point, that was when I was doing it. I Did it I guess eight years in a row. That was the most at the time that was the most lucrative brand in publishing history. I think it was the first time anyone could charge $2 million per advertising page. It was at its peak. Right. So that's the story of the documentary. So I got to know this crew that I shot with them constantly and we had a conversation and it was the first time I felt comfortable enough to disclose what had happened. And then it took two years to edit. It was only supposed to take a year, but that's how the filmmaking goes. And cut to the premiere is a week before the election. And I had to let lawyers know and everything I said look you, this is coming out. They left this in where I say what did. And we're a week before the election.
- [17:36]
A
Oh, it's on. It's in the dock.
- [17:38]
B
It's in the dock. And that's the first time I ever publicly disclosed. That's how I ended up doing all the media and everything right before the election because I thought to have it out there hanging without any context a week before the election, I need to get a handle on this and talk to people and everything. So that's how that happened. But then the timing of it looked to the conspiracy conspiracies minded. Looks like it was set up to happen right before the election or something. So yeah, that's how I decided. People had urged me to do it for years. They said at the very least. And I have other friends who are victims and who haven't come forward and some who have and we all talk.
- [18:18]
A
About victims of Trump or other people.
- [18:20]
B
Other people in the industry. A lot of them are out there very public about it. Some aren't and so, so many have come forward since me too. And I have always been uncomfortable about doing. I chose to become anonymous, disappear and go into a different space. Once I was done with my modeling career, I didn't. I turned down reality and television movies and all that stuff and went underground. Became a low. I became a low level Gray Davis appointee when I was 26 and like I had a totally different head start volunteer completely different path in life. And so. And I love my private quiet, you know, as my friends call it, your old spinster life. Yeah, so, so, so yeah. So I, but, but I decided it was time I felt comfortable enough and then I let him and then it just blew up and, and that it was really important for me to do so crazy.
- [19:08]
A
I know. I just, I feel bad for all of you. And I talked to Gene about this and other victims. But going back to 2016, right, there were a bunch of folks that came out after Access Hollywood, and it's like. To come out like that then have. I could almost. It isn't, but I could see how it might feel like it's like the American people are, like, rendering a judgment on your story. Like, we don't care, basically, you know, and that's so tough, I think.
- [19:33]
B
Oh, it's really tough. I mean, I had actual family members who were Q and A honors because I'm from rural Penns, remember? So I had actual family members yell at me and call me bitter. And it's. It's been brutal. I mean, it's just. This country's been savaged. It's just. It doesn't look like there's any end in sight. And it's deeply personal for all of us who, you know, went through it.
- [19:53]
A
I appreciate you coming out. I don't. I would. I'd be. I'd be remiss if I didn't just ask you, because that's just. Curiosity killed the cat, and I'm sure I can't. Do you have. Why do you. How do you think he had all that money, Jeffrey? And you're with him for three or four months, but do you have any. Did he. Did he talk to you about that? Do you have any theories of the case, like, where his money came from?
- [20:12]
B
It was always so vague, you know, it was like I never asked him directly. I mean, look, I was around Saudi prince, you know, I mean, the access. The access that you have as a young, like, teenager because you're. This biological accent or accident is absurd when you think about it, right? Like, I'm in the back rooms with politicians and billionaires and Saudi princes and everything simply because my parents had sex one night. It's so ridiculous. And so I, you know, it was the norm that I'd be around wealthy, powerful men. His was always a lot more confusing because that, you know, that was a lot of wealth. And I still don't understand it. I don't. That's another thing would be nice. I think Senator. The senator from Oregon is looking into. Yeah, yeah. And I also say that, you know, Adam Davidson, who I got to know through his podcast years ago, was fantastic journalist, I think. You know, he actually has written about some of the linked up, some of the money stuff. But, yeah, I don't. I have no idea. I wish I knew. I think we all need a lot of answers.
- [21:21]
A
We do indeed. All right, well, thank you, Stacy. So much for talking about this. I appreciate it. We didn't know each other before this. I've been mentioning you this week.
- [21:30]
B
I know, because, like, I keep.
- [21:32]
A
Okay, good. Well, thank you.
- [21:34]
B
Everyone loves you.
- [21:35]
A
Well, good. I appreciate that. And I appreciate that when I got a text from your PR person, they're like, see? And I was like, oh, I hope everything I've been saying is right. You know, I didn't want to get in trouble. But I kept. Yeah, I kept being in the media, and people would be like, well, just because his name is on the list doesn't mean he did anything wrong. They're like, what are you talking about? Like, many women have said that he sexually harassed or assaulted them. And specifically in the context of Epstein, women have. And, you know, including it in yourself.
- [22:04]
B
So, yeah, you feel like, you know, I feel like, you know, you feel like you're screaming into the void sometimes. And the fact when this. This, you know, this happened, it blew up a little bit around the election, and then it was quiet. And then once it started heating up again, the last few weeks again, like you said, everyone's like, well, just because they were in a photo, I'm like, what? You know, why did I get an ulcer in November? So, yeah, thank you. I appreciate it, really. And it's true. There are a bunch of us, and, you know, like, I feel like, you know, people say this, but for everyone that comes forward, like, you know, it makes someone else comfortable enough to come forward. So that's a good thing. So thank you. Really.
- [22:39]
A
Thank you. No, real, honestly, I'm doing nothing. I'm just flapping my jaw. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you and everybody else, thank you for joining us on the feed. Subscribe. We'll be talking to you all soon.