Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – “Europe Will Stand Behind Zelensky, Not Trump”
Date: November 21, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Mark Hertling (Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General, Bulwark Military Analyst)

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on U.S. and European reactions to a reportedly imposed “peace plan” for Ukraine, co-developed by U.S. and Russian officials, and its troubling implications for Ukraine’s sovereignty, European security, and American credibility. Bill Kristol interviews General Mark Hertling, drawing on Hertling’s military experience and deep understanding of Ukrainian military reforms and European geopolitics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transformation of the Ukrainian Military (01:07–04:59)

• Hertling’s Personal Connection:
  Mark Hertling recounts working closely with Ukrainian military leaders, particularly General Hennadiy Vorobiov, who was instrumental in uprooting Soviet-era corruption and reforming Ukraine’s armed forces along Western lines.
• U.S.-Ukrainian Military Cooperation:
  The support involved joint training, educational exchanges, and anti-corruption campaigns that profoundly changed Ukraine’s military culture, differentiating it starkly from Russia’s.

“They were a terrible army. They were crooked. They still had the stench of the Soviet Union on them. But Vorobiov… went on an anti-corruption campaign and… turned the place around.”
— Mark Hertling (01:44)

2. The "Peace Plan": Details and Dangers (04:59–08:02)

• Rewarding Russian Aggression:
  Both Kristol and Hertling are alarmed at the presented 28-point peace plan which appears to reward Russia with Ukrainian territory (Donbas, Crimea), limit Ukraine’s military, hinder Western support, and impose Russian linguistic and religious privileges—echoing core Russian demands.
• Historical and Cultural Ignorance:
  Hertling criticizes U.S. officials for failing to understand the depth of historic trauma between Ukraine and Russia, likening current proposals to enabling another “frozen conflict”—a recurring feature of Russian regional aggression.

“It just smacks of rewarding Russia for aggression and criminal activities and terrorism and the invasion of another country.”
— Mark Hertling (03:44)

“…do what Putin's always dreamed of, which is kind of obliterating Ukraine's separate national identity.”
— Bill Kristol (05:19)

“…it's just ludicrous to me that we would be accepting of that.”
— Mark Hertling (07:52)

3. Exclusion of Ukraine and European Allies (08:02–09:33)

• Lack of Consultation:
  Hertling points out the deal was negotiated between U.S. and Russian envoys, excluding Ukraine and European allies—despite Europe’s immediate stake in regional security.
• European Perspective:
  Europeans, having faced decades of Russian intimidation, are “viscerally” opposed to such concessions and can’t comprehend U.S. willingness to abandon the alliance’s values.

“It's not in the region for them. It's next door. They see Russian sabotage teams… Kremlin hackers… They've lived with this kind of Russian intimidation for decades.”
— Mark Hertling (08:47)

“They can't understand why the United States is not standing up for its values.”
— Mark Hertling (09:24)

4. Will Zelensky and Europe Stand Firm? (09:33–10:06)

• Hertling is confident that Zelensky and all European states will reject this “peace deal,” noting acceptance would be both a strategic and moral failure for the West.

“He'll get the backing of every single European state to not accept this.”
— Mark Hertling (09:46)

5. Broader U.S. Strategic Withdrawal (10:06–11:50)

• Worrying Signals Beyond Ukraine:
  U.S. is scaling back military presence and influence—removing forces from Romania, withdrawing carrier strike groups, and suggesting surrender of key NATO positions to Germany—prompting European doubts about U.S. commitments.
• Alliance Undermined:
  Hertling stresses the danger of weakening a strong, 70-year-old alliance that underpins European and, by extension, U.S. security.

“You see this constant drip of things that seem to be completely ignoring an alliance that we've had in place for 70 years…”
— Mark Hertling (11:28)

6. American Attention and Political Support (11:50–12:59)

• Fading Focus:
  Hertling laments that U.S. public and political attention has drifted away from Ukraine, despite its vital geostrategic importance.
• Policy Risks:
  He fears that distraction with domestic controversies makes it easier for damaging policies to prevail.

“…for the first two years of this conflict, everyone was really focused on the courageous fight of the Ukrainians. It's no longer in the headlines.”
— Mark Hertling (12:24)

7. Values, Precedent, and the Putin Factor (12:59–14:11)

• Global Implications:
  Kristol highlights that Ukraine’s fate affects the larger world order and U.S. values.
• Putin’s Influence:
  Hertling bluntly compares Putin to a criminal who has repeatedly manipulated Western leaders—including Trump, whom he accuses of wanting to “be best friends” with Putin.

“Putin is not only a criminal…he's much worse than Epstein. So it's just another person you want to collude with to… our greater detriment.”
— Mark Hertling (13:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. Policy:
  “…it’s just ludicrous to me that we would be accepting of that.” (Mark Hertling, 07:52)

• On European Sentiment:
  “They see Russian sabotage teams on a daily basis… They can't understand why the United States is not standing up for its values.” (Mark Hertling, 08:47–09:24)

• On Putin:
  “Putin is not only a criminal, but he's sometimes very charismatic… Now we've got Trump, who wants to be best friends with him, and they don't understand that you're dealing with a murderer.” (Mark Hertling, 13:35)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Transformation of Ukrainian Army: 01:07–04:59
• Details of U.S.-Russia “Peace Plan”: 04:59–08:02
• Exclusion of Ukraine/Europe from Talks: 08:02–09:33
• Zelensky’s Position & European Unity: 09:33–10:06
• U.S. Disengagement and NATO Concerns: 10:06–11:50
• Waning U.S. Political Support: 11:50–12:59
• Global Consequences/Putin’s Manipulation: 12:59–14:11

Final Takeaways

This episode challenges U.S. policy shifts that jeopardize Ukraine’s sovereignty and broader Western interests. Both the guest and host warn of the dangers of appeasing Russian aggression, underestimating European resolve, and drifting away from the principles that have grounded transatlantic alliances for decades.

The tone is urgent and critical, with repeated calls for renewed U.S. attention to Ukraine—and to the values at stake in the conflict.