← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing.
- [00:02]
James Talarico
Editor at the Bulwark. I'm joined by James Tallarico, who is from the Texas State House and not in Texas.
- [00:07]
Sam Stein
Actually, today, James and his colleagues, his.
- [00:10]
James Talarico
Democratic colleagues, have fled the state to deny quorum for this special session in which Governor Greg Abbott, @ the behest of Donald Trump, is pushing a fairly radical redistricting plan. James, thanks for joining us. Really appreciate it. Tell us what the past 24 hours have been like. I know the decision was made, I believe on and then on Sunday you guys left. But tell us about the last 24 hours.
- [00:36]
Well, it's, you know, I, I, I love my home state. I'm kind of a homebody. I don't like hotel rooms or travel. And not been a great 24 hours for me, it's probably not going to be a great few weeks. I wish I had woken up in Austin, Texas. No offense to, to Illinois, but I wish I was back home. But, you know, the reason that we're doing this is because this Trump redistricting power grab is so brazen, it's so egregious. And, you know, I know that the Bulwark is a sophisticated audience, but I just want to explain real quick what I mean by these terms. So typically, state legislators like me, we adjust our district boundaries for congressional races and state legislative races at the beginning of every decade after we get a new census and we have new population numbers. And we did that in 2021 when the Texas Republicans drew a new map. But now Trump is asking those same Republicans to redraw the Texas maps in the middle of the decade to get him five more seats because he's worried he's going to lose his majority in Congress in the midterm elections because he's wrecking the economy, starting wars, protecting pedophiles because he's kicking millions of Texans, millions of Americans off their health care because fund tax breaks for billionaires. So he's, he's trying to shield himself from the voters. He's trying to shield himself from accountability. And that should be unacceptable no matter your political party, just as Americans. That's not how this system is supposed to work.
- [02:08]
Sure. Now, James, were you, I don't know if we have an exact number of how many of the 62 Democrats have fled the state. We know that there's a handful who have not, but it's enough. Okay, 57. Okay. And that's enough to deny a quorum because I believe you have to have 100 of the 150 members of the.
- [02:24]
Sam Stein
House there talk a little bit, Grant.
- [02:27]
James Talarico
Generally about what it was like to leave. I mean, obviously you want to do it with some secrecy, so you weren't stopped. But how fearful were you of being stopped at the border, for instance?
- [02:36]
We were very concerned about that. And our caucus leader did a great job. Representative Gene Wu from Houston, he is our fearless leader in this fight. And he and his team really pulled off a logistical feat getting this many Democrats out of the state of Texas undetected. You know, I was only given about 24 hours notice. I knew this may happen. You know, our caucus has been talking about this power grab for the last, you know, two months. We've been fighting it at the state capitol for two weeks of this special legislative session. But I didn't know we were leaving, didn't know when we were meeting, where we were going until about, about 24 hours ahead of time. So that's how much time I had to, to pack and, you know, make my arrangements to be out of the state indefinitely.
- [03:22]
Sam Stein
Now you're facing some repercussions, obviously.
- [03:26]
James Talarico
$500 fine, which people might not think that's a big deal, but you get.
- [03:30]
Sam Stein
$600, I believe to serve in this.
- [03:33]
James Talarico
So that's gone before taxes, Sam. So that's one day you're gone. But beyond that, in all seriousness, Greg Abbott, the governor has made a statement this morning. I'm gonna read it to you. I just want your reaction to it. It reads like this. This truancy ends now. The derelict Democratic House members must return to Texas and be in attendance when the convenes at 3pm on Monday, Aug. 4. That's today. For any member who fails to do so. I will invoke Texas Attorney general opinion number KP0382 to remove the missing Democrats from membership in the Texas House.
- [04:09]
Sam Stein
So that's based off of a non.
- [04:11]
James Talarico
Binding opinion issued by the state Attorney general, Ken Paxton himself embroiled in some ethical issues. But how serious do you take the idea or the threat that was putting.
- [04:21]
Sam Stein
It kindly, how seriously do you take.
- [04:23]
James Talarico
The threat of the possible expulsion from the House here?
- [04:26]
I mean, we're ready to face consequences. I like how Greg Abbott and Ken Paxton act tough on social media when it comes to us. But when the President of the United States tries to mess with Texas, they bend the knee. I wish they had the same fortitude, the same strength when it came to dealing with the President who's trying to rig our maps here in Texas. But this, this wasn't an easy decision for Us, not only are we facing these financial consequences, we may also be facing political consequences, as the governor alluded to. And Ken Paxton has already called for us to be hunted. That was the word he used. So there are certainly security and safety concerns as well. I should also add that, you know, we're a part time legislature in Texas and so we are leaving behind our day jobs. We, we have jobs so we can make ends meet and pay our bills. We're leaving behind that income to be able to do this. Some of my colleagues are leaving behind young children, some of them are leaving behind aging parents. So this was not an easy thing to do. It was not a decision we made lightly. But this power grab is so brazen, it's so discriminatory and it is so disruptive to the democratic process. We're not just fighting for Democrats, we're fighting for independents and Republicans too. We want free and fair elections in every single community across our state. And that is very much at risk with this redistricting power.
- [05:50]
But you, you, you, you think it's legitimate that you could be thrown out of the house by the governor?
- [05:54]
You know, I wouldn't put anything past governor A.B. that he's trying to, to silence my constituents voices with this map and so he may try to silence them by removing their elected representatives. I mean, when someone is acting so undemocratically right, we, we have to expect anything and everything.
- [06:14]
And the other option thrown around by a colleague, Jared Patterson, and Frisco was to actually gerrymander the House seats, the state house seats. So that would be another form of this.
- [06:24]
Sam Stein
I want to talk about sort of.
- [06:25]
James Talarico
The process here because there have been walkouts before like this 2003, obviously 2021, I believe in 2003 it ended when one of the Democrats returned to the state capitol and the quorum was achieved in 2021. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it ended after Governor just called a second special session and Governor Abbott has that right to do that. I mean it's a 30 day special section special session, but he can always just call a second one. So how would this one end any differently than the other two?
- [06:56]
We're not sure. We're taking this one session at a time. The current special session will end in two weeks. And so we have all committed to killing these maps and stopping this corrupt special session from reaching that end. But we don't know what's going to happen after that. We heard from blue state governors that they may retaliate with their own gerrymandering. I hope that could convince Republicans in Texas and Republicans nationally to walk back from the brink. I don't think any of us want this race to the bottom, this descending spiral of partisanship. I think we can all agree that we should have citizen led, independent, redistricted commissions in every state. I actually filed a bill last week to introduce that concept in the state legislature in Texas. That is the vision. That is the goal. But if Republicans insist on cheating, I think Democrats are going to respond in kind and they're going to match energy. They're not going to unilaterally disarm, nor should they. And so we'll see what happens. I think there's a lot of variables in play here, and who knows where we'll be in two weeks.
- [08:07]
Sam Stein
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- [09:27]
James Talarico
To a couple Dems who say they regret not tying the independent commissions to Republican states doing the same. That's another conversation you did mention to my old colleague Adam Ran a playbook that one of the ways out of this is sort of mutually assured destruction. I think you're alluding to that where it's like, well, if we do this in Texas, then Governor Newsom will, you know, gerrymander six Republicans out of elected office in California. I hear your point, but I would just argue that. And you can push back on me here, but would it make sense for Newsom to move now? Wouldn't mutually assure destruction requirements, Texas Republicans recognizing, or I guess national Republicans recognizing that something will happen, rather than just talking about something happening?
- [10:11]
Yeah, I completely agree. And Texas Republicans are doing it. They have passed this map out of committee, so they are moving. And I think blue state governors should move as well. And so if, if there are listeners to this show who live in a blue state, particularly a blue state with a trifecta, a blue house, a blue senate, and a blue governor's mansion, please call your elected representatives and tell them to respond. Tell them to act. We have to stand up to these bullies. You know, it's appropriate, Sam, that we are in the land of Lincoln, because Abraham Lincoln actually broke quorum as a state senator in 1840 by jumping out of the window of the Illinois state capitol. Thankfully, I didn't have to jump out of any windows yesterday.
- [10:54]
Sam Stein
I saw you. I saw you use that line already.
- [10:57]
James Talarico
We are, we are participating in a long American tradition of standing up to bullies. Well, you know, disobedience.
- [11:04]
Sam Stein
Your critics say, well, you.
- [11:06]
James Talarico
It's also probably went to Illinois because that's an incredibly gerrymandered state in the opposite direction. They've basically written Republicans almost out of existence.
- [11:15]
And I've said that redistricting, when it's used for these blatant political purposes, this kind of gerrymandering, it's wrong when any party does it, when my party does it, or when the Republican Party does it. Now, I will say, though, that this power grab in Texas is unique. It. It is so brazen. It's happening in the middle of the decade. You know, like I said, we typically do this at the beginning of the decade after a new census. So this is essentially like two football teams coming out of the locker room at halftime. And the team that's ahead says they want to change the rules in the second half to make sure they stay ahead. It's cheating, plain and simple. And if they're going to cheat, we're not going to play.
- [11:52]
I have two more questions for you. One is on the federal government here because unlike in 2003, although, well, unlike in 2003, we now have a White House that is openly pushing for this, saying without any qualm, that they want to gain seats in power, meaning there's no pretext here other than we want to control the House. They also have shown a real aggressive posture towards using federal resources in federal agencies in very political manner. So to the degree that you're able to talk about it or want to talk about it, I suppose, I mean, what are your fears around or expectations around dhs, FBI, law enforcement agencies on the federal level being involved or brought into this?
- [12:35]
Well, Texans don't scare easily. We also don't surrender easily, if you know anything about our state's history. And so we are. We are fighting for our constituents, Democrats, Independents and Republicans alike, and we're ready to face whatever consequences may come. But this is bigger than us. It's bigger than us personally. It's bigger than our individual careers or even our individual districts. I mean, this is about whether or not we will have a representative democracy. And the Republican Party is led by a president who has shown a complete disregard and disdain for the peaceful transfer of power. So that's what's at stake here. The stakes really couldn't be any higher. This is not just about Texas.
- [13:15]
This.
- [13:15]
This is about the whole country. This is about the democratic process. This democracy is flawed. We have to fix it so that works for everybody. But when you have people in power trying to hold on to power at any cost, it prevents us from making progress on all the issues we care about. Housing, healthcare, education, flood relief for the victims in the hill country. This is the rot at the core of our broken political system. And it's finally time that someone stands up and to these bullies at the national level.
- [13:45]
That was going to be my last question, which is the special session had two main components to it. One was, of course, the redistricting that you're seeing right now. But the other one was flood relief. And now that is. What is it just going to languish there until something is done? I mean, what is the future of flood relief in Texas?
- [14:03]
Well, we had two weeks of this special session. We came to Austin, to the state Capitol. We begged our Republican colleagues to prioritize those flood victims and their families and preventing a disaster from happening in the future, that's the responsible thing to do. That's the real emergency that deserves the attention of state lawmakers. But instead, Governor Abbott and our Republican colleagues use those flood victims as leverage to play politics, to pass these rigged maps to silence the voices of Texans across our state. I mean, that's. It's disgusting. It is politics at its worst. We should have put flood victims first. We should have put flood mitigation first. But instead, they put it behind these redistricting maps. They had two weeks, and they didn't even file a flood bill. And so this is this is being used as a talking point by our Republican colleagues to muddy the waters here. We should keep our focus on this power grab and demand that they they put away these rigged maps and focus on the flood victims in Central Texas.
- [15:05]
It is telling that they didn't move that first before redistricting. All right, James Talarico of the Texas state House. Not in Texas, in Illinois. Very nondescript background, I think, chosen strategically. Thank you seriously, for joining us. I appreciate the time. I know you're incredibly busy.
- [15:22]
Sam Stein
Thanks to everyone for watching this.
- [15:24]
James Talarico
I appreciate that as well. Please subscribe to our YouTube feed where you get conversations like this.
- [15:28]
Sam Stein
James, take care.
- [15:29]
James Talarico
Thank you, Sam.