Episode Overview

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Episode Title: Florida Surgeon General’s Dangerous Vaccine Move
Date: September 7, 2025
Hosts/Guests: Tim Miller (A), Sam Stein (B), Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo (C, via CNN clip), Donald Trump (D, via clip)

This episode dives into the controversy surrounding Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo's and Governor Ron DeSantis's decision to eliminate all vaccine mandates in the state. Tim Miller and Sam Stein dissect the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind the move, highlight public health implications, discuss the political miscalculations involved, and compare approaches taken by other Republican leaders.

Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Surgeon General Ladapo’s Rationale (00:00–01:27)

• CNN Interview Excerpt: Ladapo, questioned about the lack of data analysis on ending vaccine mandates, admits none was performed, framing it instead as a matter of parental rights.

  • Notable Quote:
    • “Absolutely. So. Absolutely not, because it's not a... do I need to analyze whether it's appropriate for, for parents to be able to decide what goes into the bodies? I don't need to do an analysis on that.” (C, 00:43)

• Hosts’ Reaction: Miller and Stein are incredulous and alarmed at the absence of any data-driven analysis or public health concern.

2. Critique of the Policy (01:27–02:59)

• Miller and Stein describe the decision as “idiotic” and reckless, likely leading to resurgence of diseases among children and vulnerable populations.

• Stein strongly notes there are already ample avenues for exemptions in Florida, making the scrapping of mandates unnecessary.

  • Quote:
    • “There are tons of exemptions. Florida's personal exemption use is on the uptick already. You don't need to get rid of the vaccines.” (B, 02:12)

3. Political Cynicism or Ideological Zeal? (02:59–04:15)

• The hosts debate whether the policy is the result of political cynicism or genuine anti-vaccine ideology.
• Miller suspects Ladapo is “just a quack” while DeSantis is “over-indexing” to appeal to the MAGA base—a strategy rooted in primary season but out of sync now.
  • Quote:
    • “The question is always in these scenarios... are they crazy or are they cynical?... In the case of the surgeon general, I think crazy is a pretty good bet.” (A, 03:13)

4. Voter Attitudes and DeSantis’s Misreading (04:15–06:44)

• Stein references a recent Fabrizio Ward poll to show that even Trump voters (77%) favor standard childhood vaccines (MMR), with the real anti-vax sentiment confined to COVID-19 shots.

  • Quote:
    • “I think Desantis kind of over indexed. I think he just sort of like, figured, oh, all these voters hate vaccines in the, in Trump world. And the fact is they don't.” (B, 05:59)

• The hosts banter humorously about shingles, underscoring that most resistance is about the COVID vaccine, not traditional ones.

5. Ladapo’s Rhetoric and Trump’s Position (06:44–09:14)

• Miller notes Ladapo compared vaccine mandates to slavery, which both hosts treat as an absurd and inflammatory comparison.

  • Quote:
    • “Being told that you should get a scientific medicine to protect you and your community... is the similar to chattel slavery...” (A, 07:14)

• Trump’s more nuanced (though simplistic) view is played:

  • Quote:
    • “Look, you have vaccines that work. They just, pure and simple work. They're not controversial at all. And I think those vaccines should be used...” (D, 07:40)

• Miller and Stein note that Trump, while often pandering, displays a certain instinct for not completely alienating mainstream voters on issues like childhood vaccines.

6. Likely Backlash and Broader Implications (09:14–10:41)

• Stein predicts that there will be political backlash from parents and general voters uncomfortable with reckless policies on childhood vaccinations.

• Miller doubts GOP leaders, including Trump, will do anything to moderate the anti-vax fringe, fearing base backlash.

  • Quote:
    • “Are any of them actually going to do anything about... these guys up to and including Trump have all seemed, not just reticent, but scared to do anything that would cause backlash among the craziest parts of the base.” (A, 09:57)

7. What Happens Next: CDC Panel & Autism Report (10:41–11:50)

• Upcoming decisions: CDC’s vaccine advisory panel, now featuring several anti-vax members, will soon make recommendations on childhood vaccines.
• Stein notes RFK’s coming “autism report,” rumored to blame factors like Tylenol or folate deficiencies—a move Miller and Stein treat with disbelief and skepticism, bantering about eating sufficient leafy greens.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:43] Ladapo: “I don't need to do an analysis on that.”
• [01:30] Stein: “It’s so idiotic. What are we doing here?”
• [02:12] Stein: “There are tons of exemptions. Florida's personal exemption use is on the uptick already. You don't need to get rid of the vaccines.”
• [03:13] Miller: “In the case of the surgeon general, I think crazy is a pretty good bet.”
• [05:59] Stein: “I think Desantis kind of over indexed... The fact is they don’t [hate all vaccines]. They like their MMR vaccines.”
• [07:14] Miller: “That is... similar to chattel slavery and being... someone else's property.” (sarcastically paraphrasing Ladapo)
• [07:40] Trump (clip): “You have vaccines that work. They just, pure and simple work. They're not controversial at all.”
• [09:57] Miller: “Are any of them actually going to do anything about... [the anti-vax fringe]?”
• [11:29] Miller: “It all seems like the good foods, the dark leafy greens have folates. Asparagus, Brussels sprouts, peas.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–01:27] — Ladapo’s CNN Interview; “No Analysis” rationale.
• [01:27–02:59] — Hosts’ Alarm and Critique.
• [02:59–04:15] — Is This Cynicism or Ideology?
• [04:15–06:44] — Polling: What Do Republican Voters Really Think?
• [06:44–07:40] — Mandate Rhetoric: “Slavery” Comparison.
• [07:40–09:14] — Trump’s Position on Vaccines Paraphrased.
• [09:14–10:41] — GOP Fear of Anti-Vax Base.
• [10:41–11:50] — Forthcoming CDC Panel & Autism Report.
• [11:50–End] — Folates Banter; Closing Thoughts.

Concluding Points

• The Bulwark team sees Florida’s vaccine policy shift as dangerous, lacking scientific backing, and rooted more in performative politics or fringe ideology than public health.
• Polling data suggests the GOP base is much more supportive of traditional childhood vaccines than political leaders believe, with opposition mostly focused on COVID-19.
• The episode highlights deep concern about anti-vaccine influences in policymaking, including at the federal level, and skepticism that national GOP figures will effectively counter the most extreme voices.
• The discussion closes with levity about leafy greens and dietary folate, contrasting the gravity of policy decisions with the absurdity of some anti-vax claims.