Florida Surgeon General’s Dangerous Vaccine Move

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Episode Title: Florida Surgeon General’s Dangerous Vaccine Move
Date: September 7, 2025
Hosts/Guests: Tim Miller (A), Sam Stein (B), Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo (C, via CNN clip), Donald Trump (D, via clip)

This episode dives into the controversy surrounding Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo's and Governor Ron DeSantis's decision to eliminate all vaccine mandates in the state. Tim Miller and Sam Stein dissect the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind the move, highlight public health implications, discuss the political miscalculations involved, and compare approaches taken by other Republican leaders.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Surgeon General Ladapo’s Rationale (00:00–01:27)

• CNN Interview Excerpt: Ladapo, questioned about the lack of data analysis on ending vaccine mandates, admits none was performed, framing it instead as a matter of parental rights.

  • Notable Quote:
    • “Absolutely. So. Absolutely not, because it's not a... do I need to analyze whether it's appropriate for, for parents to be able to decide what goes into the bodies? I don't need to do an analysis on that.” (C, 00:43)

• Hosts’ Reaction: Miller and Stein are incredulous and alarmed at the absence of any data-driven analysis or public health concern.

2. Critique of the Policy (01:27–02:59)

• Miller and Stein describe the decision as “idiotic” and reckless, likely leading to resurgence of diseases among children and vulnerable populations.

• Stein strongly notes there are already ample avenues for exemptions in Florida, making the scrapping of mandates unnecessary.

  • Quote:
    • “There are tons of exemptions. Florida's personal exemption use is on the uptick already. You don't need to get rid of the vaccines.” (B, 02:12)

3. Political Cynicism or Ideological Zeal? (02:59–04:15)

• The hosts debate whether the policy is the result of political cynicism or genuine anti-vaccine ideology.
• Miller suspects Ladapo is “just a quack” while DeSantis is “over-indexing” to appeal to the MAGA base—a strategy rooted in primary season but out of sync now.
  • Quote:
    • “The question is always in these scenarios... are they crazy or are they cynical?... In the case of the surgeon general, I think crazy is a pretty good bet.” (A, 03:13)

4. Voter Attitudes and DeSantis’s Misreading (04:15–06:44)

• Stein references a recent Fabrizio Ward poll to show that even Trump voters (77%) favor standard childhood vaccines (MMR), with the real anti-vax sentiment confined to COVID-19 shots.

  • Quote:
    • “I think Desantis kind of over indexed. I think he just sort of like, figured, oh, all these voters hate vaccines in the, in Trump world. And the fact is they don't.” (B, 05:59)

• The hosts banter humorously about shingles, underscoring that most resistance is about the COVID vaccine, not traditional ones.

5. Ladapo’s Rhetoric and Trump’s Position (06:44–09:14)

• Miller notes Ladapo compared vaccine mandates to slavery, which both hosts treat as an absurd and inflammatory comparison.

  • Quote:
    • “Being told that you should get a scientific medicine to protect you and your community... is the similar to chattel slavery...” (A, 07:14)

• Trump’s more nuanced (though simplistic) view is played:

  • Quote:
    • “Look, you have vaccines that work. They just, pure and simple work. They're not controversial at all. And I think those vaccines should be used...” (D, 07:40)

• Miller and Stein note that Trump, while often pandering, displays a certain instinct for not completely alienating mainstream voters on issues like childhood vaccines.

6. Likely Backlash and Broader Implications (09:14–10:41)

• Stein predicts that there will be political backlash from parents and general voters uncomfortable with reckless policies on childhood vaccinations.

• Miller doubts GOP leaders, including Trump, will do anything to moderate the anti-vax fringe, fearing base backlash.

  • Quote:
    • “Are any of them actually going to do anything about... these guys up to and including Trump have all seemed, not just reticent, but scared to do anything that would cause backlash among the craziest parts of the base.” (A, 09:57)

7. What Happens Next: CDC Panel & Autism Report (10:41–11:50)

• Upcoming decisions: CDC’s vaccine advisory panel, now featuring several anti-vax members, will soon make recommendations on childhood vaccines.
• Stein notes RFK’s coming “autism report,” rumored to blame factors like Tylenol or folate deficiencies—a move Miller and Stein treat with disbelief and skepticism, bantering about eating sufficient leafy greens.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:43] Ladapo: “I don't need to do an analysis on that.”
• [01:30] Stein: “It’s so idiotic. What are we doing here?”
• [02:12] Stein: “There are tons of exemptions. Florida's personal exemption use is on the uptick already. You don't need to get rid of the vaccines.”
• [03:13] Miller: “In the case of the surgeon general, I think crazy is a pretty good bet.”
• [05:59] Stein: “I think Desantis kind of over indexed... The fact is they don’t [hate all vaccines]. They like their MMR vaccines.”
• [07:14] Miller: “That is... similar to chattel slavery and being... someone else's property.” (sarcastically paraphrasing Ladapo)
• [07:40] Trump (clip): “You have vaccines that work. They just, pure and simple work. They're not controversial at all.”
• [09:57] Miller: “Are any of them actually going to do anything about... [the anti-vax fringe]?”
• [11:29] Miller: “It all seems like the good foods, the dark leafy greens have folates. Asparagus, Brussels sprouts, peas.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–01:27] — Ladapo’s CNN Interview; “No Analysis” rationale.
• [01:27–02:59] — Hosts’ Alarm and Critique.
• [02:59–04:15] — Is This Cynicism or Ideology?
• [04:15–06:44] — Polling: What Do Republican Voters Really Think?
• [06:44–07:40] — Mandate Rhetoric: “Slavery” Comparison.
• [07:40–09:14] — Trump’s Position on Vaccines Paraphrased.
• [09:14–10:41] — GOP Fear of Anti-Vax Base.
• [10:41–11:50] — Forthcoming CDC Panel & Autism Report.
• [11:50–End] — Folates Banter; Closing Thoughts.

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Concluding Points

• The Bulwark team sees Florida’s vaccine policy shift as dangerous, lacking scientific backing, and rooted more in performative politics or fringe ideology than public health.
• Polling data suggests the GOP base is much more supportive of traditional childhood vaccines than political leaders believe, with opposition mostly focused on COVID-19.
• The episode highlights deep concern about anti-vaccine influences in policymaking, including at the federal level, and skepticism that national GOP figures will effectively counter the most extreme voices.
• The discussion closes with levity about leafy greens and dietary folate, contrasting the gravity of policy decisions with the absurdity of some anti-vax claims.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody, Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with Sam Stein. We got a bunch of stuff happening on the Sunday shows this week and in this video about the news out of Florida where Ron Desanctimonious and his surgeon general, Joseph Ladapo have decided that they're going to get rid of all vaccine mandates in the state. And Ladapo was on CNN State of the Union with Jake Tapper this morning discussing that. I'm going to play a little bit of that and then get you on the other side.

[B]

Did your department do any data analysis.

[A]

Did you do any data projection of how many new cases of these diseases there will be in Florida once you remove vaccine mandates?

[C]

Absolutely. So. Absolutely not, because it's not a. You know, you mentioned whooping cough there. So there's this conflation of the science and sort of what is the right and wrong thing to do. So scientifically, you mentioned whooping cough. So that's an example. This is part of the issue with informed consent. That's an example of a vaccine that is ineffective. The data show that it's ineffective at preventing transmission. So sort of mandates with that really don't have anything to do with, with the notion of transmission. And then in terms of, you know, like analysis. Well, ultimately, this is an issue very clearly of parents rights. So do I need to analyze whether it's appropriate for, for parents to be able to decide what goes into the bodies? I don't need to do an analysis on that.

[A]

What do you make of that? There's a.

[B]

Well, it's deeply, deeply reassuring for the citizens of Florida that this man just decided to go forward with this without any analysis whatsoever? Why would you want to, like, you know, have some sort of projections about what might happen if you don't mandate childhood vaccinations in your state and you're the surgeon general of your state? I mean, it's so, it's so idiotic. What are we doing here?

[A]

Well, it's an issue of right and wrong, Sam. This isn't an issue of data. This isn't an issue of science. This is an issue of if you want to be responsible for bringing back rubella to the community of Sarasota, then you have a right to do that. I guess.

[B]

I guess I just don't understand why they're doing this. I mean, no one's asking for this. I mean, maybe some people are asking this, but not many people are asking for this. And the obvious consequences are that parents are going to see their kids contract diseases and people who have bad health conditions are going to be more vulnerable. And, like, what is it? What the upshot is that. Oh, you know, like, you're not mandating some vaccine for some person who, like, feels, you know, hurt by the mandate. They have exemptions. They already have exemptions in the law. There are tons of exemptions. Florida's personal exemption use is on the uptick already. You don't need to get rid of the vaccines. If people are feeling morally conflicted or religiously conflicted about this, there are pathways under the current law to get exemptions. This is idiotic.

[A]

It's a little bit curious to me, too, from the DeSantis perspective. I mean, I've never met Mr. Surgeon General at OPPO, but he seems like. Like he's taken the red. The red pill. And he. I just think that this dude might just be an anti. Not mandated.

[B]

He wasn't mandated to take the red pill, just to be clear.

[A]

I just think he might just be a quack. I think that. I don't know. There's a lot of depth. What gave it away, the desantis? And the question is always in these scenarios, sometimes this doesn't matter. Sometimes it does matter, which is like, are they crazy or are they cynical? You know, and it's like, in the case of the surgeon general, I think crazy is a pretty good bet. I kind of understood this as a cynical play for him during the campaign. We're going to go way back in the way back machine here to when DeSantis was primary Donald Trump, and it was like, how am I going to get to the MAGA right of Trump on things? And DeSantis kind of made this bet that because of operation warp speed, you know, that he could be more of the. Oh, I was a tart liner on Covid. I did the ivermectin, right? So, like, that made sense. I mean, obviously it wasn't going to work, but, like, you could understand how, as a strategic mindset, DeSantis got there. But, like, that campaign is over. DeSantis is not running. You know what I mean? Like, there's no. So, like, what is the political benefit for him right now in this? I can't.

[B]

That's such a valid point. There's a. I don't think they pick up that there's an actual distinction in the minds of voters between Covid and the COVID vaccine and other traditional vaccines that as a society, we have grown completely accustomed to, that are part of our everyday routine that we know we take and give our kids if they Want to enroll in the public school system. And, you know, it's. It's actually very obvious in polling data, too. So last week, the firm Fabrizio Award, which is like a highly influential firm in Republican politics, but mostly in MAGA circles.

[A]

Tony's a big gay and who has been Trump's pollster for a long time.

[B]

That's right. He's Trump's big gay pollster. So this is. I just want to point this out because, like, the data is pretty conclusive on this stuff. When they asked people for their views on vaccinations and they broke it down, all voters, Trump voters, Democrats, Harris voters, yada, yada, yada, they asked, please tell me how important it is for people to receive each of the following vaccines. I'm just going to give you the Trump voters here, okay? Mmr, that's the childhood vaccine to prevent measles, mumps, and rubella. This is just Trump voters. 77% of Trump voters believe it's important for people to receive that vaccine. Shingles. For people over 50, 70%, hepatitis B, 69%.

[A]

I have a little question on shingles. What's the big deal about shingles? Don't you just get a little bit of a skin rash?

[B]

It's not great. Let's not great, okay? Let's just put it that way.

[A]

What are we talking about? This is where you come for center. You know, I'm a squish across the board, Sam, even on vaccines. I'm like, you got to give it to them on one of them. And I should go, yeah, give them the shingles. I'd like to see some of the white papers on the shingles.

[B]

You're right. You're right. Take your shingles. It's fine. Okay? Flu people, they're not, they're not big fans of the flu vaccine, I'll give you that. That's at 45%. But the COVID vaccine, Trump voters, 22%. So we're talking about a delta of like 55% here. And I think Desantis kind of over indexed. I think he. I think he just sort of like, figured, oh, all these voters hate vaccines in the, in Trump world. And the fact is they don't. They really don't. They like their MMR vaccines. They actually like their shingle vaccines. Except for you. Hepatitis B, they like that vaccine. It's the COVID vaccine. And so I think he just misread the moment. And then he empowered this guy Lopo, and he just, he's just a dope. Like, I can't watch this, man. And be, like, confident that the state of Florida is getting the best medical advice.

[A]

At a news conference last week, he said that the vaccine requirements drip with disdain and. Slavery. Slavery, yeah, slavery. So it's a flashback to slavery that, you know, it's quite similar, you know, being told that you should get a scientific medicine to protect you and your community from. From getting diseases. That is the. Similar to chattel slavery and being. Yeah. Being someone else's property.

[B]

It's worse. Worse.

[A]

I want to, I want to point out that one person in Magaworld does not seem to have over indexed. Does not seem to be quite as confused as Ron DeSantis about where their voters are on this, and that is Donald Trump himself. I don't show you this. You got asked about the Florida, you know, vaccine mandates in the Oval the other day. Let's watch.

[D]

Look, you have vaccines that work. They just, pure and simple work. They're not controversial at all. And I think those vaccines should be used, otherwise some people are going to catch it and they endanger other people. And when you don't have controversy at all, I think people should take it serious.

[A]

Trump's kind of like doing the. Well, I mean, there's some good ones, right? Like, are they all bad? There's like, I'm pretty, like, I'm pretty sure there's some good ones out there. And, you know, we should do those and we shouldn't do the bad ones. I mean, that it is, you know, it's a child's level of kind of insight there, but sometimes that's better than, you know, getting deep into the sauce like Ron and RFK are.

[B]

It's like, it's like how he's like, I like clean air.

[A]

I like my air clean.

[B]

No, I guess they should have asked him specifically about the shingles vaccine because.

[A]

I didn't realize it was so dis. Joking commenters don't give me any trouble joking about the shingles.

[B]

Just give him shingles.

[A]

Also, Trump is, I mean, Trump has his own ways in which he's a lunatic, like, mostly related to his megalomania. But he's not. Like, he always, like, looks at the craziest people in the coalition and it's kind of like, you're crazy. You know what I mean? And it was even on different stuff, I was like, he was. Remember when he used to joke with Mike Pence about how this guy really cares about the babies, you know, and so I, and then, and, and Stephen Miller didn't even make fun of him for being a little caring a little too much about race at some point, you know, so, like, Trump is like, you guys dial back a little bit here.

[B]

Yeah, no, he's, he's funny in that way. And he definitely has made fun of Mike Pence for being a little bit too religious. But, yeah, in this case, he obviously, although I do some of it is just like, yeah, we. That's a little crazy. But I think some of it is also like, I think there's real. I actually do think there's like, real voter backlash to what RFK is doing and what this guy in Florida is doing. I think people are freaked a little bit. I mean, I know I'm freaked, but I think when you saw John Barrasso just kind of get, you know, push back on RFK like that, my sense is they, they understand that, you know, parents aren't really thrilled at the prospect of sending little Jimmy off to kindergarten and coming back with measles. I don't know why they wouldn't be thrilled with that.

[A]

But, yeah, I agree that they sense it. And, you know, we are joking about how Trump's like, you know, lizard instinct is closer to the right place on this than like, total anti vax freaks. But are any of them actually going to do anything about. You know, like, these guys up to and including Trump have all seemed, not just reticent, but scared to do anything that would cause backlash among the craziest parts of the base. And Trump. Trump could reign RFK back in. And it's easy to kind of like, point at DeSantis, who is, who's still kind of his foe, and be like, in Florida, they're going a little overboard, but, like, I don't see any signs at this point that Trump or Barrasso or any of these guys are planning on reigning rfk. And I mean, maybe it'll happen eventually.

[B]

But yeah, no, I think we'll. We'll find out in, like a couple of weeks, honestly, there's a couple of things happening in the next couple of weeks that really matter, so.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

This, this vaccine advisory panel at the cdc, which RFK stocked with complete conspiracy nuts and anti vaxx, they're going to have to put out recommendations for the childhood vaccine schedule and other vaccines, and so we'll see if they rein them in. And then this ridiculous autism report that RFK is putting together that reportedly we'll see is going to blame Tylenol and maybe folates. Okay, folates.

[A]

It is important. I did, I did a quick Google on folates and it does seem like you should get some. It does seem like it's important to get your folates.

[B]

Folates. I'm going to look for this. Folate deficiencies.

[A]

Yeah. And food. But it's, you know, it all seems like the good foods, the dark leafy greens have folates. Asparagus, Brussels sprouts, peas.

[B]

I eat a lot of. I eat a lot of Brussels. Am I that bad now?

[A]

No, no, this is good. You want the folate rich, I want the folates. The theory was that it's not enough folates. Yeah. The lack of folates is leading to odd.

[B]

Oh, well, then I'm good, man. I'm eating a lot of kale. I got my Brussels going.

[A]

So anyway. Okay, well, we'll keep an eye out on that. Sam Stein. Thank you. And Jonathan Cohn, if you really want to go deeper on all this stuff, Jonathan newsletter. The breakdown has been so. Has been unbelievable on this and. And a lot of other stuff in the health and policy space. So go check that out. The Bulwark.com subscribe to this feed. We'll be back here soon. See you later. Peace.