Tim Miller (3:25)

Of course, as well. I know you guys been monitoring the article included some conversations or some interviews. I guess some of the Venezuelans have been out, and I saw one video of a guy who is hugging his family, and others are still going through the process. Like, what's your sense for what we know at this point?

Isabella Diaz (3:40)

I think my. My impression was that I saw that video as well. I think it was Francisco Cacique, that he seemed like he was able to have a brief moment with his family at the airport, if I'm not mistaken. And it was a. It's a very moving reunion. I think, you know, his brother, who we had been in touch, also doing our reporting, his brother appears to say to him, you know, I promised you that we were going to be with you. We were going to go wherever it took to get you back. You're not alone. And then you can see in that video as well, the other family members at the airport, you know, were holding the photos of their loved ones. And. But, yeah, I think most of the families that we have, you know, been texting since Friday, they still haven't had a chance to be with their relatives. I think if the New York Times reported that they are staying in a hotel and, like Noah said, going through, you know, medical and kind of some triage process with the Venezuelan government. But, yeah, I think just to echo what Noah was saying, the families expressed really this overwhelming, you know, sense of. I think for many of them, perhaps it was unclear whether their loved ones were even alive for this four months. They've been kind of yelling, shout into the void, seeking justice for this man. And now I can only imagine that they are counting the minutes to be able to actually have them at Home.

Tim Miller (5:06)

Yeah. So you were talking. Most of the folks you're talking to were in Venezuela and some here in America, I guess. What is the feeling about at least, I mean, in some of these cases, the men were fleeing Venezuela because they were worried about political persecution or persecution on sexuality or whatever. And then in some of the cases, maybe not. Maybe it was more of an economic kind of immigration. But are there worries still? On the one hand, it's this enormous relief that you're out of this concentration camp in El Salvador where you can't talk to your family or lawyers, you know, nothing. On the other hand, is there still concern about reentry to Venezuela or maybe not. I don't know. What have you heard?

Noah Leonard (5:48)

Yeah, I think it's going to be a mix. And it's also a complicated situation now where, you know, at the moment, and probably what we've heard is that, you know, we'll see, but that people are expecting their loved ones to be released tomorrow. At least some of them are. But, you know, right now they're in Venezuelan government custody essentially. And, you know, it is important to remember there's kind of no, there's no, at the highest levels of power, there's no good guys in this story. We're talking about the Maduro regime, the Bukele regime and the Trump regime and Trump. So I think they're in a position now where even if they did have those fears, they couldn't be honest about them or express them. You know, it wouldn't be advisable for a family member to be telling us, you know, about someone who is now obviously back in Venezuela about those fears. But, yes, like you said, you know, it's a, we're talking about 200, about 250 people who came to the United States for a variety of reasons. But, yeah, I don't know what. Yeah. Curious what you would.

Isabella Diaz (6:33)

I'll say one, one of the mothers that we talked to on Friday, she expressed that exact sentiment, that duality of, you know, being very happy because it was her birthday on Friday. And she finally could say, you know, I got a gift from God to know that my, my son will be released. But at the same time, I am scared for what might happen to him because he specifically fled Venezuela fleeing the colectivos, which are pro government, you know, paramilitary groups that are aligned with the Maduro regime. So she was very much aware of, you know, the potential harm that her son could be subjected to back in Venezuela. And we know from, you know, reporting from ProPublica that I think dozens of these men have pending asylum cases. And I'm sure that in many instances it might be related to, you know, experiences that they had perhaps fleeing persecution in Venezuela. So. Yeah.

Tim Miller (7:30)

Yeah. One of the grossest comments I've seen since then from, I forget it was from DOJ or dhs, was that some of the men might be brought back, but not because they have credible asylum claims and we want to protect them, but because we want to prosecute some of them. So, you know, like that's, you know, so it just shows to your point about the no good guys. Right. It's like it's hard to feel confident. Right. And it's again, it's good to be out of one of the worst prisons in the world. It's hard to feel confident about the state of play with given the governments we're dealing with.

Noah Leonard (8:01)

Yeah. And I think that just kind of highlights the whole farce and really evilness of this. I mean, is when you down to. Even on Friday, the government, US government still saying, we maintain that all 250 of these people are members of trend, despite the fact that, you know, basically every major news organization in the United States and as shown and as our reporting has shown as well, it's completely untrue. There's no evidence at all for it. And they refuse to provide any evidence. You know, for example, there's just like one small thing where 100 days out they put out a press release of all the fake news that immigration reporters had put out during this administration and how they had misrepresented cases. They were like, the Maryland father actually killed Maro Grego Garcia as an ms, their team member. But notably, you know, Andre Romero Hernandez and Neri Alvarado were not on that list. I emailed them, said, you know, these are pretty big cases. You've totally left them out. Should I take that to mean that the reporting has been correct? You know, no response. So that, you know, they know that these people are innocent. They know that they have nothing on them and yet they maintain this fiction. It's just pure lies.

Tim Miller (8:55)

What is your. And maybe the answer to this is we just don't know at this point because, like this came a little bit out of nowhere and there had been a kind of conversation about some sort of prisoner slob with Venezuela that Grinnell and Rubio were involved, that had, you know, that had kind of fallen apart some other type of trade like a month ago. Like, why did this happen now? And have the families you've talked to heard it all from the Venezuelan government about what this was, this pressure coming on Bukele from other Latin countries. Do you think, or, you know, I don't. I guess that's the one big question I have about the sort of geopolitics of this. I don't know. Do you have any sense for what was the impetus?

Isabella Diaz (9:35)

I think that it's a great question. I'm not sure that I have the answer. Hopefully we will know more in the, in the upcoming days. I, I know, you know, from the families that we were in touch with on Friday, like they said, you know, this kind of seemed to have come out of nowhere, like we didn't know that this was going to happen. And, yeah, there was a sense that it's like we didn't see this, is that this was coming. And, and I know that, you know, some of the families have expressed they are thankful to the Maduro regime for, you know, what they believe that they were able to secure the release of their loved ones. But, yeah, I think, you know, to me, this has just been. I really hope that we kind of don't forget that these men were never supposed to have been sent to Sakat in the first place. And clearly we know that they didn't have to have spent four months there. And I think this kind of sudden release proves that even more.

Noah Leonard (10:32)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (10:32)

And it feels like a PR win for the Maduro regime. I kind of understand why they would want to do it. Right. Because it's like this. Oh, we're fighting for Venezuelans who were treated so horribly by the Americans. This was another. Besides just the humanitarian nightmare and the depravity of us doing what we were going to do, we also are just like, I mean, looking at it from the Trump administration's perspective and Rubio's perspective, who wants to paint Maduro as kind of an evil communist dictator or whatever? Well, he just handed him a massive win. That makes it seem like Maduro is the one on the side of human rights here against the Americans and Bukele.

Noah Leonard (11:09)

I mean, it's quite hard, hard to paint Maduro in a positive light. And somehow the Trump administration has managed to deliver them a PR victory on this. Totally for. For no reason at all. And similar to the Bukele, you know, government. It's like we've seen, you know, you know, there's been reports of his approval rating, which has traditionally been very high, you know, going down a bit. And yet, you know, yes, the idea of holding 250 people from another Latin American country for a Latin American head of State is not. Is not a good move either, especially as it became abundantly clear that how innocent the large majority of these men were. And even he. There was some reporting from the New York Times is kind of like it was back channeling to the Trump administration saying, like, hey, you said you were sending me the worst of the worst, and you basically sent me a bunch of random guys like, this is bs like, that is not what I signed up for. Of course, he didn't say that publicly, but sure.

Tim Miller (11:57)

All right, well, the. We mentioned nary at the top. Are there any of the other cases you want to highlight or mention from the folks you talked to before I let you go?

Isabella Diaz (12:06)

I think we were also able to see a photo of Arturo Suarez, who was the singer. Yes, he was the singer. And there was actually a video from Telesur, the Venezuelan broadcaster, that they were able to. It seems like they were on the plane immediately as it landed. And in that video, some of the men were able to say a little bit in just a few minutes some of what they had experienced at sick caught. And, you know, they describe things they. They said, you know, we were kidnapped kind of 24 hours a day. We had no contact. We didn't know whether it was day or night at any point. They said that they were bitten, you know, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, which they were beaten. Yeah, that they were, you know, hit. Which also kind of echoes Kumara Garcia's testimony about having been tortured at Sickot. So that. That appears to have been kind of the first time we were able to hear a little bit from them. And yeah, some of those horror stories are sure to come to light in the next few days.

Tim Miller (13:18)

All right, well, we'll keep monitoring. Thank you guys so much for your reporting on this. It's greatly appreciated. Noah Leonard and Isabella Diaz of Mother Jones, you guys have been on this for the start. We really appreciate that. And as we get, if you do hear more stories from the families in the coming days, we'd love to follow up.

Isabella Diaz (13:36)

Thank you, Tim.

Noah Leonard (13:37)

Thanks, Tim.

Tim Miller (13:37)

All right, we'll see y'. All.

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