Freed from Hell, but Still Not Safe

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Episode Summary - "Freed from Hell, but Still Not Safe"

Release Date: July 21, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Noah Leonard and Isabella Diaz from Mother Jones

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Bulwark Takes, host Tim Miller engages in a profound discussion with Mother Jones reporters Noah Leonard and Isabella Diaz. The focus centers on the harrowing ordeal of Venezuelan citizens who were forcibly taken to El Salvador and have recently been part of a contentious hostage exchange, resulting in their return to Venezuela. This exchange has ignited a spectrum of emotions and uncertainties among the families of the freed individuals.

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The Hostage Exchange: An Overview

[01:39] Tim Miller sets the stage by introducing Noah and Isabella, highlighting their investigative work on the Venezuelan hostages. The conversation delves into the specifics of the exchange process and the immediate aftermath experienced by the families awaiting their loved ones' return.

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Family Reactions and Emotional Turmoil

Noah Leonard provides insights into the emotional states of the families involved:

• [02:31] Noah Leonard: Discusses communication with Maria Daniello, Neri Alvarado's sister, and Enrique Hernandez, Alvarado's U.S. employer. He emphasizes the "great relief" expressed by Alvarado upon his return but notes an underlying "bitterness" due to the injustices faced.

Isabella Diaz adds depth by describing the family's anticipation and the mixed emotions post-release:

• [06:33] Isabella Diaz: Shares a poignant moment where a mother expresses joy over her son's release juxtaposed with fear for his safety back in Venezuela, especially given his reasons for fleeing, such as escaping persecution by pro-government paramilitary groups.

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Concerns Over Reentry and Future Safety

The discussion shifts to the uncertainties surrounding the hostages' future in Venezuela:

• [05:48] Noah Leonard: Highlights the precarious position the returnees find themselves in, caught between oppressive regimes without reliable support systems. He underscores the lack of transparency and the ongoing fear despite their physical return.

• [07:30] Tim Miller: Reflects on a troubling statement from U.S. Department of Justice officials, insinuating that some released individuals might face prosecution not based on credible asylum claims but for other undisclosed reasons. This revelation deepens the mistrust and fear among the families.

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Geopolitical Implications and Motivations Behind the Exchange

The conversation delves into the complexities of international relations influencing the hostage exchange:

• [08:01] Noah Leonard: Criticizes the U.S. government's stance, noting the absence of evidence supporting the claims that the hostages were involved with extremist groups. He labels the situation as a "farce" and "pure lies," highlighting the administration's reluctance to address the innocence of the majority of the detainees.

• [09:35] Isabella Diaz: Raises questions about the suddenness of the exchange, speculating on possible behind-the-scenes negotiations involving regional leaders. She expresses hope for transparency in the forthcoming days to better understand the motives and processes involved.

• [10:32] Noah Leonard: Points out the unintended PR victory for Venezuela's Maduro regime, suggesting that the release of the hostages could be leveraged to portray Maduro as an advocate for human rights, despite his government's oppressive history.

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Personal Stories and Testimonies from the Hostages

The reporters share firsthand accounts and testimonies from the recently freed individuals:

• [12:06] Isabella Diaz: Recounts the ordeal of Arturo Suarez, a singer, who detailed his experiences of constant fear, lack of communication, and physical abuse during his captivity. These narratives shed light on the severe human rights violations endured by the hostages.

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Conclusion and Ongoing Monitoring

As the episode wraps up, Tim Miller acknowledges the ongoing nature of the situation and the need for continued reporting:

• [13:18] Tim Miller: Thanks Noah and Isabella for their invaluable reporting and expresses commitment to following up as more stories emerge, ensuring that the plight of these individuals remains in the public eye.

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Notable Quotes

• Noah Leonard [02:31]: "They expressed great relief to be back in Venezuela... but there's that bitterness there. There's this reality of the injustice of what happened."

• Isabella Diaz [06:33]: "I got a gift from God to know that my son will be released. But at the same time, I am scared for what might happen to him."

• Tim Miller [07:30]: "It's hard to feel confident... given the governments we're dealing with."

• Noah Leonard [08:01]: "It's just pure lies."

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Key Takeaways

• Emotional Aftermath: Families are torn between relief and fear, grappling with the uncertain safety of their loved ones upon their return to Venezuela.

• Lack of Transparency: There is a significant gap in information regarding the true motives behind the hostage exchange, leading to widespread mistrust.

• Geopolitical Maneuvering: The exchange may inadvertently benefit Maduro's regime in the international arena, complicating existing narratives around human rights and political oppression.

• Human Rights Violations: Personal testimonies highlight the severe abuses endured by the hostages, underscoring the need for continued vigilance and reporting.

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This episode of Bulwark Takes poignantly captures the complex interplay of human suffering, political machinations, and the enduring hope for justice and safety among those affected by international hostage situations.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hey everybody, Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. I'm here with two reporters from Mother Jones, Noah Leonard and Isabella Diaz, who have been talking to the families of the Venezuelans that had been disappeared to El Salvador and have now been part of a hostage exchange, I think we should call it, and have arrived home back in Venezuela. They had an article out on Friday we were kidnapped that includes some conversations with some of the family members. So hey, how you guys doing? Thanks for coming on.

[Noah Leonard]

Doing all right? Yeah, thanks for having us on.

[Tim Miller]

Tim, you mentioned in particular the family of Neri Alvarado. People have been kind of following this along with us here on this channel. Remember, he's the guy with the autism awareness tattoo. Maybe talk about that conversation and we'll use that as a kickoff. How are the families reacting to all this? And you know, what have we learned about, about their treatment in El Salvador?

[Noah Leonard]

Yeah, so I was first in touch with them on Friday with Neri's older sister, Maria Daniello, and then his boss from the United States, Enrique Hernandez, who became quite close to him and has really done a lot of work on his behalf from the US where he's. He's a US Citizen in Dallas, a Venezuelan immigrant. But what I heard was, you know, they had gotten a notification that he was going to be arriving at the airport imminently. They live about four hours away in a very small town in Venezuela. So they're basically about to get on the road to drive to Caracas to meet Neri there. What I heard this morning was that they still have not met him yet because the Venezuelans are kind of going through various processes. But they did get a call from him this morning, they said, and just, you know, of course, he expressed great relief to be back in Venezuela. But, you know, as Enrique said, we know when I talk to him on Friday is like, you know, yes, he's happy, but there's that bitterness there. There's this reality of the injustice of what happened.

[Tim Miller]

Of course, as well. I know you guys been monitoring the article included some conversations or some interviews. I guess some of the Venezuelans have been out, and I saw one video of a guy who is hugging his family, and others are still going through the process. Like, what's your sense for what we know at this point?

[Isabella Diaz]

I think my. My impression was that I saw that video as well. I think it was Francisco Cacique, that he seemed like he was able to have a brief moment with his family at the airport, if I'm not mistaken. And it was a. It's a very moving reunion. I think, you know, his brother, who we had been in touch, also doing our reporting, his brother appears to say to him, you know, I promised you that we were going to be with you. We were going to go wherever it took to get you back. You're not alone. And then you can see in that video as well, the other family members at the airport, you know, were holding the photos of their loved ones. And. But, yeah, I think most of the families that we have, you know, been texting since Friday, they still haven't had a chance to be with their relatives. I think if the New York Times reported that they are staying in a hotel and, like Noah said, going through, you know, medical and kind of some triage process with the Venezuelan government. But, yeah, I think just to echo what Noah was saying, the families expressed really this overwhelming, you know, sense of. I think for many of them, perhaps it was unclear whether their loved ones were even alive for this four months. They've been kind of yelling, shout into the void, seeking justice for this man. And now I can only imagine that they are counting the minutes to be able to actually have them at Home.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So you were talking. Most of the folks you're talking to were in Venezuela and some here in America, I guess. What is the feeling about at least, I mean, in some of these cases, the men were fleeing Venezuela because they were worried about political persecution or persecution on sexuality or whatever. And then in some of the cases, maybe not. Maybe it was more of an economic kind of immigration. But are there worries still? On the one hand, it's this enormous relief that you're out of this concentration camp in El Salvador where you can't talk to your family or lawyers, you know, nothing. On the other hand, is there still concern about reentry to Venezuela or maybe not. I don't know. What have you heard?

[Noah Leonard]

Yeah, I think it's going to be a mix. And it's also a complicated situation now where, you know, at the moment, and probably what we've heard is that, you know, we'll see, but that people are expecting their loved ones to be released tomorrow. At least some of them are. But, you know, right now they're in Venezuelan government custody essentially. And, you know, it is important to remember there's kind of no, there's no, at the highest levels of power, there's no good guys in this story. We're talking about the Maduro regime, the Bukele regime and the Trump regime and Trump. So I think they're in a position now where even if they did have those fears, they couldn't be honest about them or express them. You know, it wouldn't be advisable for a family member to be telling us, you know, about someone who is now obviously back in Venezuela about those fears. But, yes, like you said, you know, it's a, we're talking about 200, about 250 people who came to the United States for a variety of reasons. But, yeah, I don't know what. Yeah. Curious what you would.

[Isabella Diaz]

I'll say one, one of the mothers that we talked to on Friday, she expressed that exact sentiment, that duality of, you know, being very happy because it was her birthday on Friday. And she finally could say, you know, I got a gift from God to know that my, my son will be released. But at the same time, I am scared for what might happen to him because he specifically fled Venezuela fleeing the colectivos, which are pro government, you know, paramilitary groups that are aligned with the Maduro regime. So she was very much aware of, you know, the potential harm that her son could be subjected to back in Venezuela. And we know from, you know, reporting from ProPublica that I think dozens of these men have pending asylum cases. And I'm sure that in many instances it might be related to, you know, experiences that they had perhaps fleeing persecution in Venezuela. So. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. One of the grossest comments I've seen since then from, I forget it was from DOJ or dhs, was that some of the men might be brought back, but not because they have credible asylum claims and we want to protect them, but because we want to prosecute some of them. So, you know, like that's, you know, so it just shows to your point about the no good guys. Right. It's like it's hard to feel confident. Right. And it's again, it's good to be out of one of the worst prisons in the world. It's hard to feel confident about the state of play with given the governments we're dealing with.

[Noah Leonard]

Yeah. And I think that just kind of highlights the whole farce and really evilness of this. I mean, is when you down to. Even on Friday, the government, US government still saying, we maintain that all 250 of these people are members of trend, despite the fact that, you know, basically every major news organization in the United States and as shown and as our reporting has shown as well, it's completely untrue. There's no evidence at all for it. And they refuse to provide any evidence. You know, for example, there's just like one small thing where 100 days out they put out a press release of all the fake news that immigration reporters had put out during this administration and how they had misrepresented cases. They were like, the Maryland father actually killed Maro Grego Garcia as an ms, their team member. But notably, you know, Andre Romero Hernandez and Neri Alvarado were not on that list. I emailed them, said, you know, these are pretty big cases. You've totally left them out. Should I take that to mean that the reporting has been correct? You know, no response. So that, you know, they know that these people are innocent. They know that they have nothing on them and yet they maintain this fiction. It's just pure lies.

[Tim Miller]

What is your. And maybe the answer to this is we just don't know at this point because, like this came a little bit out of nowhere and there had been a kind of conversation about some sort of prisoner slob with Venezuela that Grinnell and Rubio were involved, that had, you know, that had kind of fallen apart some other type of trade like a month ago. Like, why did this happen now? And have the families you've talked to heard it all from the Venezuelan government about what this was, this pressure coming on Bukele from other Latin countries. Do you think, or, you know, I don't. I guess that's the one big question I have about the sort of geopolitics of this. I don't know. Do you have any sense for what was the impetus?

[Isabella Diaz]

I think that it's a great question. I'm not sure that I have the answer. Hopefully we will know more in the, in the upcoming days. I, I know, you know, from the families that we were in touch with on Friday, like they said, you know, this kind of seemed to have come out of nowhere, like we didn't know that this was going to happen. And, yeah, there was a sense that it's like we didn't see this, is that this was coming. And, and I know that, you know, some of the families have expressed they are thankful to the Maduro regime for, you know, what they believe that they were able to secure the release of their loved ones. But, yeah, I think, you know, to me, this has just been. I really hope that we kind of don't forget that these men were never supposed to have been sent to Sakat in the first place. And clearly we know that they didn't have to have spent four months there. And I think this kind of sudden release proves that even more.

[Noah Leonard]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And it feels like a PR win for the Maduro regime. I kind of understand why they would want to do it. Right. Because it's like this. Oh, we're fighting for Venezuelans who were treated so horribly by the Americans. This was another. Besides just the humanitarian nightmare and the depravity of us doing what we were going to do, we also are just like, I mean, looking at it from the Trump administration's perspective and Rubio's perspective, who wants to paint Maduro as kind of an evil communist dictator or whatever? Well, he just handed him a massive win. That makes it seem like Maduro is the one on the side of human rights here against the Americans and Bukele.

[Noah Leonard]

I mean, it's quite hard, hard to paint Maduro in a positive light. And somehow the Trump administration has managed to deliver them a PR victory on this. Totally for. For no reason at all. And similar to the Bukele, you know, government. It's like we've seen, you know, you know, there's been reports of his approval rating, which has traditionally been very high, you know, going down a bit. And yet, you know, yes, the idea of holding 250 people from another Latin American country for a Latin American head of State is not. Is not a good move either, especially as it became abundantly clear that how innocent the large majority of these men were. And even he. There was some reporting from the New York Times is kind of like it was back channeling to the Trump administration saying, like, hey, you said you were sending me the worst of the worst, and you basically sent me a bunch of random guys like, this is bs like, that is not what I signed up for. Of course, he didn't say that publicly, but sure.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, the. We mentioned nary at the top. Are there any of the other cases you want to highlight or mention from the folks you talked to before I let you go?

[Isabella Diaz]

I think we were also able to see a photo of Arturo Suarez, who was the singer. Yes, he was the singer. And there was actually a video from Telesur, the Venezuelan broadcaster, that they were able to. It seems like they were on the plane immediately as it landed. And in that video, some of the men were able to say a little bit in just a few minutes some of what they had experienced at sick caught. And, you know, they describe things they. They said, you know, we were kidnapped kind of 24 hours a day. We had no contact. We didn't know whether it was day or night at any point. They said that they were bitten, you know, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, which they were beaten. Yeah, that they were, you know, hit. Which also kind of echoes Kumara Garcia's testimony about having been tortured at Sickot. So that. That appears to have been kind of the first time we were able to hear a little bit from them. And yeah, some of those horror stories are sure to come to light in the next few days.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, we'll keep monitoring. Thank you guys so much for your reporting on this. It's greatly appreciated. Noah Leonard and Isabella Diaz of Mother Jones, you guys have been on this for the start. We really appreciate that. And as we get, if you do hear more stories from the families in the coming days, we'd love to follow up.

[Isabella Diaz]

Thank you, Tim.

[Noah Leonard]

Thanks, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we'll see y'. All.

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