Germany Speech Laws Are A Gift To MAGA

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Germany Speech Laws Are A Gift To MAGA

Release Date: February 17, 2025
Host/Author: The Bulwark
Host Contributors: Tim Miller, Andrew Egger

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller and Andrew Egger delve into the contentious issue of Germany's recent speech laws and their broader implications for free speech, particularly in the context of the MAGA movement in the United States. The discussion is sparked by J.D. Vance's recent speech at the Munich Security Conference, where he criticized European allies for what he perceives as a drift away from the values of freedom, drawing unsettling parallels to Soviet-era practices.

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J.D. Vance’s Critique at the Munich Security Conference

[00:46] Tim Miller: Tim introduces the topic by referencing J.D. Vance's speech at the Munich Security Conference, highlighting Vance's assertion that European allies are increasingly aligning with Soviet-like tendencies, particularly in their approach to misinformation and disinformation.

[01:15] Andrew Egger: Andrew counters by suggesting that European responses may be rooted in entrenched interests that use Soviet-era terminology to mask their intentions. He remarks, "Now, to many of us on the other side of the Atlantic, it looks more and more like old entrenched interests hiding behind ugly Soviet era words like misinformation and disinformation."

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Analysis of the 60 Minutes Segment on German Speech Laws

Tim and Andrew examine a recent 60 Minutes segment that sheds light on Germany's enforcement of speech laws, particularly targeting online insults and hate speech.

[04:05] D (60 Minutes Interviewer: "Inside, six armed officers searched a suspect's home, then seized his laptop and cell phone. Prosecutors say those electronics may have been used to commit a crime. The crime? Posting a racist cartoon online."

This portrayal alarmed the hosts as it suggested a severe crackdown on online speech, raising concerns about the erosion of free speech rights.

[04:30] Tim Miller: Tim describes the 60 Minutes segment as almost surreal, expressing skepticism about the reality of the depicted scenarios. He states, "This to me feels like a bad, slippery slip," emphasizing his disbelief at the severity of the enforcement portrayed.

[06:46] Tim Miller: After consulting with Bill Kristol, Tim clarifies that the 60 Minutes depiction may be misleading. Bill Kristol notes, "German law doesn't criminalize insults in general, but only incitement to hatred," but the segment failed to convey this nuance accurately.

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Free Speech in Europe vs. the United States

The hosts engage in a robust discussion contrasting the free speech protections in the United States with those in Europe, particularly Germany.

[07:39] Andrew Egger: Andrew praises the American system, emphasizing the robust safeguards provided by the First Amendment and judicial precedents. He contrasts this with European approaches, pointing out the dangers of local authorities having the power to deem speech as hate speech arbitrarily.

[08:47] Andrew Egger: He further warns of the potential rise of far-right parties like the Alternative for Germany (AfD) gaining traction due to such restrictive speech laws, stating, "there has to be a different way to do this."

[10:08] Tim Miller: Tim echoes these concerns, illustrating a hypothetical scenario where enforcing speech laws in the U.S. could lead to MAGA supporters prosecuting dissenters. He remarks, "If this was the law here in America and there were MAGA people enforcing it, I'm sure you could find something in my social media history that they could define as an incitement to hatred towards MAGA Americans."

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Consequences of Speech Policing

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of stringent speech laws and their impact on societal discourse and political polarization.

[12:22] Andrew Egger: Andrew adopts a cynical view, suggesting that restoring a healthier internet environment would require drastic measures, potentially eliminating the current social media ecosystem. He draws a parallel to the ineffective policing of the January 6th Capitol riot, arguing that aggressive approaches often exacerbate tensions rather than mitigate them.

[14:19] Tim Miller: Tim summarizes their stance by stating, "We can't fight the bad autocrats with good autocrats," underscoring the principle that authoritarian methods cannot counteract authoritarian policies effectively.

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Affirmation of American Free Speech Protections

Concluding the episode, Tim and Andrew reaffirm their commitment to the First Amendment and the importance of preserving free speech.

[14:56] Andrew Egger: "Three cheers for the U.S. first Amendment."

[14:58] Tim Miller: "Three cheers for the First Amendment."

[15:01] Tim Miller: He emphasizes their ongoing dedication to exercising their free speech rights: "we're going to be exercising our First Amendment right to say whatever the fuck we want and to maybe even say something that might, that might be construed as anti MAGA American."

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Conclusion

Tim and Andrew express their concerns over Europe's restrictive speech laws, arguing that such measures pose a threat to free expression and could inadvertently fuel the rise of extremist movements. They advocate for the preservation of First Amendment rights in the United States as a bulwark against similar authoritarian tendencies.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Andrew Egger [01:15]: "Now, to many of us on the other side of the Atlantic, it looks more and more like old entrenched interests hiding behind ugly Soviet era words like misinformation and disinformation."

• D (60 Minutes Interviewer) [04:05]: "Inside, six armed officers searched a suspect's home, then seized his laptop and cell phone. Prosecutors say those electronics may have been used to commit a crime. The crime? Posting a racist cartoon online."

• Andrew Egger [07:39]: "I really like the American system where the government is forcibly restrained by a gigantic body by, first of all, our Constitution and then a giant body of judicial precedent."

• Tim Miller [10:08]: "If this was the law here in America and there were MAGA people enforcing it, I'm sure you could find something in my social media history that they could define as an incitement to hatred towards MAGA Americans."

• Tim Miller [14:19]: "We can't fight the bad autocrats with good autocrats."

• Andrew Egger [14:56]: "Three cheers for the U.S. first Amendment."

• Tim Miller [15:01]: "We're going to be exercising our First Amendment right to say whatever the fuck we want and to maybe even say something that might, that might be construed as anti MAGA American."

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This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a critical examination of Germany's speech laws, juxtaposing them against American free speech protections. The hosts articulate a clear preference for the American constitutional framework, cautioning against the potential societal and political repercussions of stringent speech regulation as observed in Europe.

Transcript

[Ryan]

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[Andrew Egger]

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[Tim Miller]

Hey everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I am back with my buddy Andrew Egger off of paternity leave. He has 19 children now and you know that's a burden, but it's also a blessing. How are you doing?

[Andrew Egger]

I'm pretty good. I got about four hours of sleep last night. Back in the office. First day, ready to rock. Let's do it.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Let's do it. We've got a couple of things I want to talk to you about. First up is the Germans versus J.D. vance. Kind of J.D. vance at the Munich Security Conference where he was talking about how our allies in Europe are now the ones that are going against the side of freedom that, you know, that our European allies are now feeling. Soviet. He compared them to the Soviets.

[Andrew Egger]

Now, to many of us on the other side of the Atlantic, it looks more and more like old entrenched interests hiding behind ugly Soviet era words like misinformation and disinformation.

[Tim Miller]

We've had some other videos you can go watch, Bill, talk about this with Sarah Longmont, Eric Edelman. And there was a lot shameful about the J.D. vance speech. I will start there. And the fact that it seems like this administration is aligned with Russia and not Ukraine and Europe is a big problem. He might have one little point. Do I have to hand it to JD on one thing? So I guess before we get to the one thing, we might have to hand it to him on. Andrew, did you concur with the broad assessment there of JD's appearance in Munich?

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah. No, I mean of, of. Of course, like it's. I think it's the latest in kind of a long string of sort of suggestions in this, in this direction. And you know, the question was always like, is this just sort of like, you know, red meat for the increasingly anti Ukraine base? What will they do once they get in here? Maybe Marco Rubio as Secretary of State is helpful. Hey, you never know. But no I mean, it really just kind of seems like they're going to act the way that we always expected them to act and kind of, for the most part, take Putin's side on this much more than, much more than certainly we would have hoped.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it's going to create huge tensions with Europe. And me and Bill talked about this on the pod today, and I think there are a lot of alarming potential consequences. Here's the thing, though, here's my message to our European pals is you don't, we don't have to make it as easy on the magazine as possible to, to attack, attack you. And I am a little bit concerned as a content creator who does his best to get it right, Andrew. We do our best to get it right here. To be truthful, I feel like when I smear people, it's because they deserve it and it's a fact based smear. That said, it alarms me a little bit when I see some of the crackdown on information, that crackdown on speech that we see in Europe and Canada too. You can't even watch bulwark content on Instagram in Canada because of some of their laws. So I worry a little bit about some of this crackdown. And there was a 60 Minutes piece that has everybody on the maga, right, really riled up right now. And I gotta tell you, I watched some of this video and, well, let's just watch some of it together and we'll get on the other side.

[D]

Is it a crime to insult somebody in public?

[Andrew Egger]

Yes. Yes, it is.

[D]

And it's a crime to insult them online as well.

[Andrew Egger]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

The fine could be even higher in the Internet if I insult you or.

[D]

A politician that sticks around forever. If somebody posts something that's not true and then somebody else reposts it or likes it, are they committing a crime?

[Andrew Egger]

In the case of reposting, it is a crime as well because the reader can't distinguish whether you just invented this or just reposted it. That's the same for us.

[D]

Inside, six armed officers searched a suspect's home, then seized his laptop and cell phone. Prosecutors say those electronics may have been used to commit a crime. The crime? Posting a racist cartoon online. At the exact same time across Germany, more than 50 similar raids played out.

[Tim Miller]

Like this whole scene to me almost felt like it was not real. The 60 Minutes interviewer is like, so if people lie, then you can take their phones away? And she's like, kind of titillated, excited by this and the whole thing. To me, I'm Just like, who's watching the watchers? I just, I don't. And then, and then they're like going to raid the house. They go and raid somebody's house for posting a racist meme. There are six armed police raiding the house. I don't. This to me feels like a bad, slippery slip. Andrew, where are you?

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, so I think there's like basically two different conversations happening here, right? And the one, it was kind of like the domestic conversation, which is that a lot of the MAGA people are mad at CBS News in particular and kind of like the interviewer and all this. Margaret Brennan had a weird monologue yesterday about how free speech might be bad. And that kind of, that's one conversation, right? But I think the more maybe interesting and fruitful conversation is not like the magazines versus their enemies or the Magaz versus the Euros. I mean, I just think like this is yet another demonstration of why the real dividing line is like, do you have a constitution that actually like makes free speech happen or don't you? Because if you don't, then, well, there's always, it always kind of seems like to, to one ruling group or another that there might be like this or that good reason, fruitful reason, like, like a reasonable reason to, to, you know, crack down on this kind of free speech or that kind of free speech or say, well, sure we have free speech, you just can't. That just doesn't cover this, these sorts of things or whatever. It doesn't cover insults online, certainly doesn't cover, you know, misinformation online. And, and you end up in a situation where, you know, like what we see in Germany or what we see in Great Britain where it's where you have these kind of like really sort of smug, like bureaucratic officers of the law, you know, going door to door with no, no knock raids or not. I guess they knocked. There's not a no knock raid, but a raid, you know, armed people in your home saying, I heard that you called a politician a penis online. You know, like, I mean, it's just, it leads very quickly to like this, this, this situation that I think that you say you're a little bit concerned about it. I think you're, I think you're kind of like letting our people down easy a little bit. I found it kind of, kind of. I find that stuff very repulsive, personally.

[Tim Miller]

Oh yeah, I think, no, I think I was just being a smart ass. I know it is like, I'm not trying to let it be uneasy. I, like, I was appalled. I was watching this video, and I'm like, what is happen again? So we're messaging with this offline. Give you a little behind the curtain. We were messaging about this in our Slack. And Bill. Bill sent this note from, like, some international law expert. He said that the 60 Minutes excerpt is a little misleading. German law doesn't criminalize insults in general, but only incitement to hatred, which is a form of insult designed to target someone with a campaign of harassment. It's like, okay, but like, the interview was pretty clear. I mean, like, they. The people, the bureaucrats there were not, didn't hedge when they were like, it is illegal to insult. And then they even expanded on that, and they're like, it's illegal to retweet an insult or to share someone else's insults, which to me is crazy.

[Andrew Egger]

And then they're sort of chortling about it and.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And then it's like, okay, well, incitement to hatred, that's, like, not as clear of a line as it, like, seems, right? Like, okay, like, you could maybe sell me on this if it's like a direct incitement to hatred. Right. Or a direct incitement to violence. Right. Maybe not hatred. Like, you know, where it's like, it's not. It is not legal to be like, go to Andrew's house and kill him. Right? Like, okay, like, maybe there should be some rules or some platform rules about how people can do all that. But, like, it's, you know, the eye is in the beholder a lot of times on, like, what is an incitement to hatred? And this is where, like, free speech matters. Free speech is important and where I think it's just, like, legitimately radicalizing. Like, if I was a German, I would. I could see how somebody would be radicalized enough to be like, maybe I should give AFD a listen. Like, I'm not going to be for afd, but, like, I can understand why somebody would look at this and be like, these people are storming my house and taking my phone. I just. There has to be a different way to do this. And I think that there are. I have some other ideas about more productive things to do, but I don't know if you have anything else to add on that.

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, I really like the American system where the government is. Is forced, forcibly restrained by a gigantic body by, first of all, our Constitution and then a giant body of judicial precedent, you know, reaffirming all that stuff. They're just not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to end up in a situation where the guy who gets to decide whether what you're saying is hate speech or whatever is like your local cop in your home with a gun, you know, like, and maybe, maybe like, I don't know, it's just like as an American, it is nice to have like, like to, to have inherited sort of like the, the cultural gag reflex of like absolutely not, you fucking sickos. Like what's going on over there? And I will also say one other thing which is that like it, it becomes and, and very well may become in Germany. It becomes kind of like this, this self fulfilling prophecy of destruction where, where you're right, I think it does, you know, cause more and more people to give, you know, a far right party like AfD a look or a listen and then, you know, say we end up in a situation where they take power. Now you're in a place where basically you have Elon Musk running the country with all those same systems, with all those same rules with none of the guarantees for speech. I mean, and you know, that's a problem, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you want AFD and Elon Musk enforcing these laws. Like imagine if you are a viewer that is sympathetic to that 60 Minutes video, imagine instead of those three people, you have three Doge Bros sitting there. You know, I mean like Elon Musk has already said he thinks that people should be arrested who speak out against them. I don't, like again, incitement to hatred. I just, I'm just saying, I think that if the, if this was the law here in America and there were MAGA people enforcing it, I'm sure you could find something in my social media history that they could define as an incitement to hatred towards MAGA Americans.

[Andrew Egger]

Like, I just, that's what's so frustrating. That is the one thing that's so frustrating about like, like the kind of credulous US media response to this sort of thing. Or like, I mean, just like the whole disinformation thing over the last couple years and everything, we're like, oh yeah, like, you know, maybe it would be good if, if like we had more kind of like sane, reasonable people deciding what you can and can't say online or in real life. And meanwhile like all of the levers of government have been seized by like the biggest cranks in the universe. And that's happening right now, right? I mean like we're all seeing it happen and yet we still have CBS going out and being like, wow, isn't it interesting? Isn't this Kind of like an interesting, like a curious, different way to run our country that we maybe should be taking a little bit of a look at. I don't know, they weren't quite that bad about it, but it was.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. I'm open to different models, by the way. I don't know, me and you might have a disagreement on this, but, like, I think algorithm rules are something I'm open to. I mean, I wish it was the companies doing it themselves. I don't think that we can trust the companies it themselves. I think that, like, there is potentially something to be said, I think probably doesn't pass muster in the U.S. but if this was a Europe, you know, kind of EU thing, and they're like, okay, we're going to let everybody post whatever they want, and if you follow people, you're going to be able to see whatever you want, but we're going to have certain limits on what can be boosted by the algorithm. I don't think that would pass muster here, but if there was a video about that in Europe, I would at least be like, okay, I'm open to listening to that. There are different mores from different countries and different commitments, but going after individual people for their comments feels like a really bad place to be. So I don't know if you have any algorithm thoughts.

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I haven't thought very deeply about the cure for what ails us. If anything, I maybe have just even a more cynical view, which is that there is no fixing the kind of Internet that we've created ourselves without humongously dramatic change that. That basically would involve like, firing the entire social media ecosystem into the sun, which, I mean, I don't know. That's how we make our money is. Is, you know, sharing our content on the same thing. So it's like, that wouldn't be very good for the bulwark necessarily to have no more Internet.

[Tim Miller]

But like, I'd sacrifice. I'd say I'd sacrifice.

[Andrew Egger]

Exactly. That's one of them that you'd take. Let me give you. Let me give you like a real quick illustration. Just like this is a very big swerve. But hopefully you'll bear with me. Like, I was in the Capitol on January 6th, right. I was outside the Capitol on January six. And you had this big mob. This big mob, and the mob meant ill. And, and like at the very beginning of kind of like the actual bad stuff going on, the cops were sort of like ineffectually like deploying little bits of like pepper spray here and there and that just riled everybody up, you know, like, that did not help. They did not actually control the energy of the crowd at all. And that's, I feel that's sort of a similar way about these sort of, like, attempts to corral the sort of like, destabilizing and reactionary and iconoclastic nature of the Internet in particular. And just like human speech in particular where, like, even if you, Even if it weren't stupid on its face and like, kind of evil on its face, why do you think it will work? Why do you think that you actually have the capacity to kind of like, go around smacking down individual people and you think that way you're going to curate like, a nicer, kinder Internet for everybody else? No, it just fans the flames of all of this stuff to where? To where, like, these guys who have truly awful and vile and evil political views then get to basically just sort of hide under the guise of like, well, no, we're just free speech people and make themselves much more palatable to a much broader audience because of this ineffectual and stupid and ridiculous kind of speech policing that you see in places like. So that's how I see it. That's how I feel about it.

[Tim Miller]

You don't. We can't fight the bad autocrats with good autocrats, I guess would be the way that I would sum it up. So that's my thoughts on that video. I'm just going to tell you when you know my natural instinct, when I see in my feedback, like, performative anger from MAGA influencers who I follow is to be like, all right, well, these guys, this is going to be bullshit. And then I like, I watched a video and I was like, it was kind of actually worse than how some of them were describing it. So anyway, bad, bad job. Germans in 60 minutes. I disagree. Let let freedom bloom.

[Andrew Egger]

Three cheers for the U.S. first Amendment.

[Tim Miller]

Three cheers for the First Amendment.

[Andrew Egger]

Love our Constitution. For as long as we're allowed to.

[Tim Miller]

Have it, everybody, we're going to be exercising our First Amendment right to say whatever the fuck we want and to maybe even say something that might, that might be construed as anti MAGA American. That might even happen on this feed. And luckily we're still free to do it. For now, we'll see how that goes. Subscribe to the feed. We'll be seeing you guys soon. Peace.

[Ryan]

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[Andrew Egger]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Andrew Egger]

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