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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com hey, everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing out at the Bulwark. I'm here with Will Salatin and we're going to be talking about Scott Besant. Tariffs, trade, the government shutdown, and whether Donald Trump should be involved. All the things that happened on the Sunday show that you probably were smart enough not to watch, but we were not smart enough to skip because this is just our life. Well, all right, so while you were watching him on the Sunday show, there are a few clips of other Republicans I want to get to in a second. But what was your main takeaway from percentage?
- [00:58]
Will Salatin
First of all, I gotta mention, did you know that Scott is not just the treasury secretary, he has another job.
- [01:03]
Sam Stein
Soybean farmer. Yeah, Sam, struggling soybean farmer. Yes.
- [01:08]
Will Salatin
I'm kind of offended because do you, Sam, on social media, do you get called a soy boy? I get called soy boy.
- [01:15]
Sam Stein
I have, I have every now and then. But I, you know, I also am a soybean farmer, so I take it.
- [01:20]
Will Salatin
Well, I just want people to know, all you people on Twitter, Scott Besson is an actual soybean farmer. So don't call me a soybean farm.
- [01:27]
Sam Stein
Sorry, let's pause for a second. Did you. I didn't know that. First and foremost, there's no way he's out there plowing the fields. Okay, what is he talking about? Does his company invest in soybeans? I don't know. Like, what do we. I'm sure there's some hedge fund investment he has in some sort of like Monsanto type agriculture company that has some soybean product out there. And so he's now a soybean farmer. I just don't believe he's actually a farmer.
- [01:51]
Will Salatin
Oh, I'm sure he's like a vicarious. He's a landowner, first of all, but he's not even a direct landowner. He probably never sees this stuff. But I spend my whole, all my time, like, deflecting and muting people who call me a soy boy. Here's a guy who's claiming soy cred, who doesn't even have anything to do with the soybeans, wants to Be a man of the land, a man of the people.
- [02:09]
Sam Stein
Yes, he did say. He did say. I feel your pain. All right, so other than that, what, what impressed you or offended you about Scott this morning?
- [02:18]
Will Salatin
Okay, so Scott Bessant had. He, he did like three interviews. You know, administration officials, some of them get to sleep in on Sunday. Some of them go out and see their kids soccer game. One schl always gets sent out to do a bunch of shows. That was him. He did three shows. I think today. The one that's really interesting to me was Meet the Press. He got asked a whole series. He basically had to clean up for Trump on a series of topics. And the first one was about tariffs and the situation in Canada.
- [02:43]
Kristen Welker
This week, President Trump abruptly broke off trade talks with Canada and put another 10% tariff on Canada in response to an ad that, that the government of Ontario ran. It features former President Ronald Reagan. Why is the president setting trade policy based on a television ad he doesn't like?
- [03:07]
Scott Bessant
Well, Kristen, let's, let's think about this. This is a kind of propaganda against U.S. citizens. You know, it's, it's PSYOPS. Why, why would the government of Ontario, I'm told that they've spent the half spent or were planning to spend up to $75 million on these ads that U.S. border. So what, what was the purpose of that other than to sway public opinion? And, you know, it's some kind of propaganda.
- [03:36]
Sam Stein
It's unreal, unreal. Like, honestly, when I saw that Trump had done it, I did a double take. Like, you literally are going to raise tariffs on an entire country because you saw an ad, you didn't like it. I mean, this is just the most childish crap. I cannot believe it happened, and yet I can believe it, actually.
- [03:54]
Will Salatin
All right, so Besson's version of this propaganda? Yeah, psyops. Like people don't know. Psyops means psychological operations. It's like a wartime thing. The evil enemy, you know, the Japanese, the Germans, whatever. Like they're doing psyops on us. This is Canada. It's Canada. So for people who haven't seen this ad, it was run by the government of Ontario, by the way. It's a one minute ad, the last five says, hi, we're the government of Ontario. Like, we're Ontario. There's nothing secretive about it. It's not like the Russian propaganda that was run America to help Donald Trump that masqueraded as American. So what they did is they say, we're the government of Canada and here's your own Former President Ronald Reagan. And they just show Reagan saying stuff about tariffs. Tariffs are bad.
- [04:36]
Rand Paul
The way to prosperity for all nations is rejecting protectionist legislation and promoting fair and free competition.
- [04:44]
Will Salatin
Reagan believed tariffs are bad. There's nothing dishonest about it. It's not propaganda. It's the truth. And they're simply telling Americans, your own conservative president said this.
- [04:53]
Sam Stein
I know. And then the saddest part wasn't actually Scott Besson's defense. It was actually the Reagan foundation, which decided it needed to put out a clarification, being like, we did not authorize this. This is deceptive. It's like, d. Just defend Ronald Reagan. That's your. What you're there for. You don't need to kiss Trump's ass. The thing about Bessant that stood out to me wasn't that, though. It was the stuff you saying on the shutdown, in part because, honestly, there's something like a little bit weird about this shutdown. Not something a little bit weird, really weird, which is that no one seems to be all that eager to, like, get to a solution around it. It's just kind of existing in our ether. It's having bad consequences. There's federal workers who are in food lines. Things aren't going to get better the more it goes on. And yet no one seems to have any real motivation or desire currently to solve it. And that starts with Trump, who seems, you know, content to let the government be shut down. He's off in Asia this week. Mike Johnson hasn't brought the House back in weeks. And Bessant got asked about this on the show, about why won't Trump actually dive in and deal with this?
- [05:58]
Will Salatin
So Bessant's response is basically, this isn't Trump's job, it's Chuck Schumer's job. It's the Democrats job. They just need to open the government. Sam, there's this very strange spin coming from the Republicans about Trump and the shutdown, which is, there's the line from Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, is, we have a split screen. He keeps saying split screen. The contrast is the split screen. And I've referenced that at this podium a few times already. But I just think it's an important thing to point out because that contrast between the two parties grows more glaring with each passing day. On one side, we have the President out leading, making peace in the Middle east, and then meanwhile, the Democrats are shutting down our government. And what's so weird about it is here's the President who's literally, they say he's making peace between, like, the Arabs and the Israelis with Hamas, with a terrorist organization. But he literally will not talk to the Democrats, to his own domestic opposition party. A thing which every previous president has done to resolve a shutdown.
- [07:01]
Sam Stein
And what was pointed out to on the shows was that Trump himself, back when the government shut down during the Obama years, was very adamant that, you know, all it took is real presidential leadership to bring sides together and to talk it through.
- [07:13]
Will Salatin
If there is a shutdown, I think.
- [07:15]
Rand Paul
It would be a tremendously negative mark.
- [07:17]
Will Salatin
On the President of the United States. He's the one that has to get people together.
- [07:21]
Sam Stein
Now, of course, he's not doing this. There is some small indication, I suppose, that there are Republicans getting a little bit fed up with this. I thought Rand Paul, who was on the Sunday shows today, he was asked about it. First of all, he was very critical of Trump for a different thing, which is the bombing of alleged drug boats in the Caribbean and on the East Pacific.
- [07:42]
Rand Paul
So at this point, I would call them extrajudicial killings. And this is akin to what China does to Iran does with drug dealers. They summarily execute people without presenting evidence to the public. So it's wrong.
- [07:55]
Sam Stein
But he also said this. Let's play this clip about what he said with respect to Trump resolving the shutdown or at least just getting a resolution to the shutdown.
- [08:03]
Rand Paul
I suggest that President Trump come forward and name three Republicans and three Democrats in the Senate to an official commission to figure this out over a one month period and come back with a solution. But in exchange for that, I think the Democrats need to open the government for a month, and then we need to pay the workers, pay our soldiers, and then I think we could come to a solution.
- [08:25]
Sam Stein
All right, so that was a little bit unexpected. More expected was the other Republican who spoke out. I don't know if we have video of this. I think we do. It's Lisa Murkowski talking to cnn. She's more definitely more moderate than many of her colleagues about, you know, the need for Trump to get involved. Let's listen to that, too.
- [08:42]
Will Salatin
I don't know that there's. That we've ever had a shutdown. And I've unfortunately been through more than my share of them. I don't think we've ever had one where the, where the president was not engaged at the end. And so I think that that would certainly help.
- [08:57]
Sam Stein
All right, what do you make of that? Am I reading too much into it that it's signs of a little bit of frustration among Republicans.
- [09:04]
Will Salatin
No, I think you've got it exactly right. I mean, Lisa Murkowski just trashed the Republican position on this because she said the president has to get involved. The position of Mike Johnson and the Republicans has been there's nothing to negotiate. We did a clean cr. The Democratic position is, no, like, that's not good enough. We need to like, negotiate on the Obamacare stuff. So what Rand Paul just did there was he put the two together exactly the way the Democrats want. That is a concession. That is the, you know, the wall collapsing. He is saying, let's put the issues together. Let's take a month, a one month.
- [09:37]
Sam Stein
Extension, open the government for a month, One month extension.
- [09:40]
Will Salatin
He's doing what Trump wouldn't. He's negotiating a deal right there. And you can see that's Tim Kaine, the Democratic senator from Virginia. He's nodding, he's nodding. As Rand Paul says this. There's a signal there. Democrats would do this deal. And the question is, is the guy who's supposed to lead Trump going to come back?
- [09:56]
Sam Stein
So your contention, your contention here is that the concession, the real concession is that you can negotiate government funding.
- [10:05]
Will Salatin
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [10:06]
Sam Stein
And that because the good, because right now, just to be clear, there is this clean CR that would fund the government through, not even now, a month, a couple weeks. So you would have to renegotiate at that point in time. But Republicans have not said, oh, we're going to renegotiate at that point in time. And here Rand Paul is saying, yes, we will put together a classic commission to do it. And that, that is a real, that's a real concession. I actually, I hadn't thought about it that way, but it does make sense.
- [10:32]
Will Salatin
Yeah. I mean, the Republican position was we will negotiate with you after you open the government, not before. That's what Trump said. But Rand Paul is saying simultaneous, we're going to, as part of reopening the government. That is a major line. Once the Republicans will cross that line, Sam, the government will reopen.
- [10:49]
Sam Stein
Right. And I guess the question now we're veering a little bit off topic and Betsy wasn't asked about this, but I do wonder in the back of my mind if part of the hesitation Democrats have here is not really just about health care, but it is about the impounding of funds, the rescissions, packages, the idea that any agreement that is agreed to on funding is just sort of paper thin. Right. It's like if Republicans are just going to backtrack on that. So I do wonder if that would be on the table ultimately, if they do some sort of commission idea that Rand Paul suggested.
- [11:18]
Will Salatin
Yeah, I mean, so that's the concern of the Democrats. And the problem is, once the Republicans have already shown that their word is no good, what is the point of getting another agreement with the Republicans on rescissions? Because the whole point of rescissions is we made a deal with you and then later we come back and we renege on it.
- [11:34]
Rand Paul
Right.
- [11:34]
Will Salatin
So is the deal going to be you won't renege again? I mean, I just, I don't know how that works. I do understand the idea of this concrete issue of the Obamacare subsidies. Sure. And that you can work out a plan. And, and I think the way Rand Paul did it, it makes sense because there's no commitment to the, the details of it. But we're going to put three people in there on each side and there will be some momentum. And that is something I think that Chuck Schumer and Akeem Jeffries, the Democratic leaders, could say.
- [11:59]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I bet they, yeah, I can see where they can get on, on that idea. I think they would probably want to have some sort of guidelines around what the, what the, what the discussions would be about. But it is true. This is how this is usually gone, where there's some sort of negotiation between different factions of each side and the president will get involved. Ultimately, in the end, it's just not happening here. Let's. Because we did want to talk about. Beth, let's play the clip where he is asked by Kristen Welker why Trump is not getting involved and you can see his answer. And then I'll let Will take a hack at it and then we'll call it a day.
- [12:34]
Kristen Welker
We're now in the second longest shutdown in U.S. history. When will President Trump meet with Democrats to try to bring this shutdown to a close and get federal workers their paychecks back again? Mr. Secretary.
- [12:51]
Scott Bessant
First I'm going to have to reject the premise of your question. Why did President Trump have to meet with Democrats? Democrats just need to go into the Senate and vote to end the shutdown.
- [13:01]
Sam Stein
All right, so that's one. And then she follows up. I want to play that quickly because that's also pretty, pretty good.
- [13:07]
Kristen Welker
He said that in the past. He said you have to be a leader. The president has to lead. You have to get people into a room. You have to get a deal. When's he going to do that?
- [13:20]
Scott Bessant
Well, he is leading, and there's no deal to do with Chuck Schumer. Chuck Schumer is trading off his polls.
- [13:26]
Sam Stein
He needs, it's like he needs a little wind up to get that, like.
- [13:30]
Will Salatin
An owl's mating call. I mean, he's, he keeps doing that thing. And look, to be fair to Bassent.
- [13:36]
Sam Stein
He, the reason he's doing, he's in Kuala Lumpur. Okay. There might be some, like, time delays. So I'm going to give him like a little bit of credit.
- [13:42]
Will Salatin
Yeah. But it's also a crappy position. He's been left. He's been, he's out there to explain why Trump is doing nothing on this. It's a terrible, I mean, there is no good answer because the Republican line about Trump, the whole shtick about Trump is he's a strong man, he's a leader. He's out making peace in Azerbaijan, you know, Malaysia, wherever, wherever it is, all over the world. Meanwhile, in America, we're like, could you try making peace here? Like, that's the whole beef, you know, that Marjorie Taylor Greene and the other Republicans have, how about helping out here? And, and suddenly, suddenly the Republican line is, oh, the president is not the president's job. He's not going to lead here. You know, we're going to wait, we're going to sit here and wait for the Democrats to step forward when, as Rand Paul illustrated, there are obvious ways that the president could step forward and put this together.
- [14:28]
Sam Stein
Well, we'll see. He's in the, he's in Asia for the week. There's, the House is not here. There's just very little momentum. But hopefully, I mean, sincerely, hopefully they can figure out a way to get this thing open. I, it's really going to cause some serious, serious havoc and harm to, to actual people. So we'll see. All right, well, thanks, buddy. Appreciate you doing this. It's, it's grueling, mindless hazard pay, like work to do the Sunday show shift. And yet for some reason you're sick and demented and you love it. And I don't get it.
- [14:58]
Will Salatin
You know, if Scott Bessant, if, if an actual soybean farmer can become, come out of the field and like, take off his overalls and do do three interviews, the least I can do is comment.
- [15:10]
Sam Stein
It's true. Very brave of Scott Besson to do that. All right, well, talk to you.