Heritage Chooses Tucker Over Its Own Principles

Summary

Bulwark Takes: "Heritage Chooses Tucker Over Its Own Principles"

Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Sam Stein (A), Will Sommer (B)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Tucker Carlson’s controversial interview with white nationalist Nick Fuentes and the Heritage Foundation’s response. Sam Stein and Will Sommer unpack why this signals a significant shift in what is considered acceptable in right-wing politics, examine the ongoing normalization of extremist voices, and critique influential conservative institutions—specifically Heritage—for prioritizing loyalty over principles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tucker Carlson’s Platforming of Nick Fuentes

• Background: On Monday, Tucker Carlson aired a much-anticipated interview with Nick Fuentes, known for his openly racist, antisemitic, and extremist views.
• Why It Matters: Will argues that this interview signifies more than just another right-wing controversy—it is a “seminal moment” in increasing normalization of previously taboo extremist figures and ideas.
  • Quote:

    “Tucker, I will say, basically let Nick Fuentes say whatever. I mean, at one point he talked about organized Jewry… He gave him this really massive platform.” (B, 01:01)

• Ripple Effect: Discusses how even within the “topsy turvy world of right wing media,” Fuentes was considered out-of-bounds—until now.
  • Quote:

    “This is someone that even in kind of the topsy turvy world of right wing media… was seen as someone you didn’t really pal around with or promote or collaborate with.” (B, 01:32)

2. The Shifting Boundaries of Acceptability on the Right

• Sam’s Skepticism: Sam expresses fatigue and skepticism, wondering if Fuentes was already considered “acceptable” given his past proximity to Trump and right-wing circles.
  • Quote:

    “I almost felt like he already had achieved acceptability. And I don't know why I felt that way, because… he actually did get into Mar a Lago.” (A, 02:31)

• Emerging Trends: Sommer points out the rise in open, “quasi joking” bigotry, especially among younger right-wing operatives—referenced through humiliating text leaks and social media behavior.
  • Quote:

    “I think the kind of younger crop of Republican operatives clearly has a ton of groiperism going on…” (B, 05:34)

• Platforming Cascade: The discussion speculates on whether this legitimization means Fuentes (or similar figures) might soon appear on larger platforms—Fox, Megyn Kelly, or even Ben Shapiro—with varying degrees of engagement.

3. The Heritage Foundation’s Reaction

• Heritage’s Video Statement: After public pressure to disavow Tucker Carlson, Heritage President Kevin Roberts released a video reaffirming unwavering support for Tucker despite his decision to platform Fuentes.
  • Clip Reaction:

    “Tucker Carlson… always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sewing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail.” (Roberts clip, 07:32)

• Sam’s Shock: Sam is surprised by the intensity and alignment of Heritage’s defense—labeling it unthinkable even five years ago.
  • Quote:

    “It was crazy. I mean, I can't even… It's hard to imagine the Heritage foundation doing this type of messaging five years ago. It really is the globalists or the mouthpieces of Washington, they're not going to be bullied by them.” (A, 08:54)

• Will’s Observation: Heritage’s quick defense and continued partnership with Carlson—even removing and then returning references to Tucker on their website—shows how right-wing institutions increasingly fear backlash from their own side more than public condemnation.

4. Fear of the Online Mob & “Audience Capture”

• Avoiding Right-Wing Criticism: The hosts agree that conservative organizations like Heritage avoid criticizing figures like Carlson or Fuentes, not out of loyalty but out of fear of the right-wing online mob.
  • Quote:

    “It's about avoiding the criticisms from the right. That's what it's about. They just don't want to have to deal with the online mob.” (A, 10:23)

• Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens Examples: Will notes that other figures are similarly cautious, choosing not to attack controversial personalities on “their side” to avoid backlash.
• Audience Capture: Sam articulates how being attacked online creates psychological pressure, driving organizations and individuals to bend to the loudest segments of their audience rather than their principles.
  • Quote:

    “It's kind of like audience capture where you just don't want to have to deal with that or you're afraid that you're going to lose audience.” (A, 11:30)

  • Memorable Banter:

    “Well, you know, Sam, if getting dunked on is good for you, you must just be doing absolutely fabulous.” (B, 12:08)

5. Generational Shifts & The Nick Fuentes Phenomenon

• Fuentes’ Rise: Will emphasizes how Nick Fuentes’ sudden ascent—from fringe marcher in Charlottesville to being openly embraced (or at least not condemned) by mainstream conservative institutions—reveals where the power and energy now lie in right-wing media.
• Institutional Nervousness: Heritage and similar organizations are portrayed as deeply anxious about being seen as out of step with, or hostile to, the new crop of hard-right activists.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the taboo being broken:

  “There was a pretty good taboo on… praising Hitler, questioning the Holocaust, that even persisted on the Right. And… it is a little silly… Tucker, now you’ve done it, now the Republicans are all going to be Nazis. When Trump did dine with him, although… that was treated as a huge disaster.” (B, 03:47)

• On normalization of extremism in younger generations:

  “This is getting so common now that I was just like… I can’t cover it. It’s the state level… we’ll be playing whack a mole.” (B, 06:11)

• On Heritage’s unwavering loyalty to allies:

  “Tucker always will be a close friend of Heritage. Always. Like, is there nothing Tucker can do that would, like, make you disavow the guy?” (A, 09:12)

• On right-wing institutions’ priorities:

  "It’s not about going after your adversaries on the left. It’s about avoiding the criticisms from the right." (A, 10:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] — Tucker Carlson’s Nick Fuentes interview: why it matters
• [02:18] — Debating whether Fuentes was already “acceptable” on the right
• [03:47] — Shifting taboos, “Hitler as a disaster” on the right
• [05:32] — “Groiperism” and normalized bigotry in Gen Z Republican circles
• [07:57] — Heritage Foundation’s wavering and video statement for Tucker
• [08:54] — Heritage’s surprising alignment with Carlson, messaging shift
• [10:23] — Fear of right-wing backlash; prioritizing in-group loyalty
• [11:30] — “Audience capture” and the psychological effect of the online mob
• [12:25] — Fuentes’ rise reflects new right-wing media dynamics

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Tone & Closing

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and a bit exasperated—reflecting both the seriousness of the subject and the hosts’ fatigue with chronic right-wing boundary-breaking. The hosts end by reminding listeners of the necessity of criticism, regardless of online blowback, and encourage continued scrutiny and support for independent media.

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For a deeper analysis, subscribe to Will Sommer’s newsletter False Flag and tune into The Bulwark for more critical takes on the shifting landscape of conservative politics.

Transcript

[A]

Hey everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulk with my man Will Summer, author of False Flag, one of the most critically acclaimed, widely loved and praised newsletters in the game. Truly a masterpiece.

[B]

That's me.

[A]

One review. One review that I read the other day said, essential reading. Essential.

[B]

It must be talking about another newsletter, but I'm happy to take it.

[A]

Sorry, that was actually the break down newsletters. I got my wires crossed here. Will you have another good one today? You made the case. I wasn't convinced, but I think you made it. After I read it, I was convinced that this Tucker Carlson interview with Nick Fuentes is a big, big deal. I guess I wasn't convinced because I'm sort of of the mindset like, oh my God, so much crap is happening. Of course they're talking to each other, whatever. This is just like furthering a trend that we've already experienced. But your position is that actually it's kind of a seminal moment. Can you elaborate as to why?

[B]

Yeah, so just to lay the groundwork here, so just to lay the groundwork here, we had on Monday, Tucker Carlson put out this kind of long anticipated interview he was going to do with the white nationalist podcaster Nick Fuentes, who's very much arising and kind of challenging the status quo force in MAGA media. And you know, Tucker, I will say basically let Nick Fuente say whatever. I mean, at one point he talked about organized Jewry and Tucker's going, you know, why were people mad at you? And then Nick Fuentes would give kind of like the biggest spin to his comments and then he'd say, well, I don't know, you know, I can't believe they're canceling you for that, Nick. So he gave him this really massive platform. And I wanted to write about this because it really kind of, it's been taking, it's gone off like a bomb in right wing media and everyone's freaking out about it because Nick Fuentes, because this is a guy who's a Holocaust denier, very openly anti black. I mean, he'll say the N word. You know, he's obviously extremely anti Jewish and you know, has admired Hitler, people like that. And so this is someone that even in kind of the topsy turvy world of right wing media these days, was seen as someone you didn't really pal around with or promote or collaborate with. And Tucker now has opened that door up. And really, you know, who's to say that sort of suggests that his politics now are acceptable within the Republican tent?

[A]

Yeah, I guess that's the question is like, maybe I just assume they're already acceptable. Right. Like, I just, just sort of of the mindset that, yeah, of course he's not toxic and anti Semitic and horrible, but, you know, at the same time he's got a huge platform and people love him on the right. Obviously, I'm not a big fan, so, yeah, I mean, I guess that's. That, that was where I was sort of torn is like, on the one hand, obviously, he's a horrible figure. Gross. My people are not the biggest fans. To say, to say it lightly. On the other, I, I almost felt like he already had achieved acceptability. And I don't know why I felt that way, because I suppose, you know, when he had dinner with Donald Trump in the campaign, obviously Donald Trump rushed to, you know, disassociate himself with it. But then again, he had dinner with Donald Trump. Right. Like, he actually did get into Mar a Lago. So I already thought he was kind of in the realm of acceptability in that sense. I'm curious, who do you think is gonna, like, if you had to guess who platforms the guy next? Because you say Tucker, putting him on the show opens the doors. But to what? Like, who's, he's not gonna go on Fox, is he?

[B]

I mean, maybe someday he could. Yeah, I mean, there, there's, or, you know, someone with similar politics. You know, the, you know, will he start going on Megyn Kelly? He's, he's not gonna go on Ben Shapiro. I mean, Ben Shapiro is no fan of his, but I think, you know, it's. Maybe not even.

[A]

Maybe he will. Maybe Ben Shapiro might do it and just be like, I'm going to argue with you and they'll just argue, right? I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I, I mean, I think the, there was a pretty good taboo on, you know, praising Hitler, questioning the Holocaust, that, that even persisted on the Right. And so, and as you said, I mean, it is a little silly on one hand to be saying, Tucker, now you've done it, now the Republicans are all going to be Nazis. When Trump did dine with him, although, you know, on the other hand, that was treated as a huge disaster. And, you know, all these Republicans were saying, how could this possibly happen? Trump had to disown him or kind of distance himself from it. So I do think, I mean, this is where this is sort of the latest triumph for Nick Fuentes, unfortunately, particularly after Charlie Kirk's assassination. He's been on a real string. There's this big TikTok trend of young women who will be listening to Fuentes and saying, you know, you know, this guy might make some good points or something. Or you have these kind of more mainstream podcast hosts playing it and saying, you know, they say this guy's crazy, but, you know, maybe he's not so crazy on this issue. So, yeah, I think it's just kind of his growth. I mean, you know, on the other hand, you know, you're saying, let me.

[A]

Let me do the other hand for that because you referenced this, but like, we're like, oh my God, it's. It's like super disturbing. And it is that this guy who is a Hitler apologist and a not neo Nazi and hates. Openly hates Jews and super disturbing that he's ascending to these heights and getting these followers and he's really opening the door. And yet in like the past month, we had a story where these young Republicans were like sending texts to each other being like, I got, you know, what was, what was the. It wasn't them who said, I have a Nazi streak. That was the Trump appointee who said, paul and gracious who said I had a Nazi trick. But these guys were, you know, talking about, you know, Hitler and stuff on text. It's clear that there's a thread of this that's in the movement that exists, and French is the embodiment of it.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's very real that that kind of Gen Z or younger millennial group of, you know, maybe millennials in general. I won't exempt my own generation from this. I think the kind of younger crop of Republican operatives clearly has a ton of groiperism going on or, you know, being this kind of. Even if they aren't saying specifically, you know, I am following Nick Fuentes. I mean, there's a lot of quasi joking around about Hitler and Jews and. And, you know, we can look at the Doge staffer who got caught with making these similar comments and ultimately they hired him back. There were all of these instances that keep coming up. I mean, there was some.

[A]

One.

[B]

Someone tweeted at me about some Republican, you know, staffer and at the state level. And this is getting so common now that I was just like, you know, I can't cover it. It's the state level, you know, I'll be, you know, we'll be playing whack a mole.

[A]

I was going to say, you could spend much of your day probably unearthing really rancid social media posts of mid to low level Republicans that are basically like, you know, Hitler, he had some good ideas. Or like, I got like a little Hitler and me. And then, you know, that's just like, that's just the way it's going to be not to. And I just don't want this to be confused. I'm not diminishing Nick Fuentes. I do think there's something significant about Tucker saying, or at least not challenging the guy. The other thing that happened, though, is that today, and this is. This was a little bit more surprising, I suppose. The guy who heads up Heritage, the. The conservative think tank, Kevin Roberts, puts out a video in which he responds to. I guess there was a bunch of calls that Heritage distance itself from Tucker crossing over the Nick Fuentes interview. So I didn't realize there was calls for Heritage distance itself from Tucker. But whatever. This guy, Kevin Roberts, who you might remember from the Project 2025 bugaboo, over the campaign, he puts out this video. It's 2 hours and 2 hours. It's 2 minutes and 40 seconds. I don't know if we're going to play it all, but let's play some of it. We will always defend America and we will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains, and as I have said before, always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sewing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail. All right, so, like, I have some thoughts on this, but what were your initial thoughts about this?

[B]

Sure. So, I mean, you know, this is Heritage. This is one of sort of the pillars of movement and conservatism. They were sponsoring Tucker's show. They had this donation page where you would go to, you know, if you. He'd give the plug on the show and then you go and donate, they'd say, we're so proud to be partners with Tucker. And then earlier this week, after the Fuentes interview came out, they edited that and removed. So if you went to heritage.org tucker it now just said, donate to the Heritage Foundation. We're proud to be in business with Tucker Carlson, things like that. And so that had prompted me to email them and say, hey, and I think a lot of other people saw this and they thought, Tucker, you know, Heritage is abandoning Tucker. And it seemed, you know, even at this age of we're not going to cancel anybody, whatever, it seemed like something that probably would have happened. And instead, not only do they not cancel Tucker, they stick with them and put out this video saying, you know, Christians can criticize Israel and a lot of things. Basically, you know, we're not going to go after people on our own side when we should be focusing on the left.

[A]

It was crazy. I mean, I can't even. It's hard to imagine the Heritage foundation doing this type of messaging five years ago. It really is the globalists or the mouthpieces of Washington, they're not going to be bullied by them. It's like, you might as well put triple parentheses around that. They talk about not taking directions from the donor class, focusing on our adversaries on the left, not attacking our friends on the right. That's like classic Republicanism these days. Tucker always will be a close friend of Heritage. Always. Like, is there nothing Tucker can do that would, like, make you disavow the guy? I mean, there's got to be something. It really stood out to me in a way that, like, I don't know, it just very much the rhetoric of the moment of the right from Kevin Roberts there.

[B]

You know, one thing I would point out here is that, you know, there is also the Charlie Kirk of it, all, right? Because Nick Fuentes was Charlie Kirk's arch enemy. In the case of Heritage, they in their Capitol Hill office had a giant 10 story banner. Don't forget Charlie Kirk. The lessons of Charlie Kirk. We miss him so much. Now they're paying because they're sponsoring this show. They're paying to platform a guy who not only was Charlie Kirk's arch enemy years ago, but, but up until basically the day he died. And since then has been saying, well, you know, I think Erica Kirk is a plant. This is some weird setup or saying. I mean, he was saying that just the vilest things about Charlie Kirk. And so the. And now I guess they're fine with that.

[A]

Well, I thought your theory, I think your theory of the case that you put in the piece is probably the one that I ascribe to too, which is that they're just big old. And I'm going to say it because they don't want to get the backlash that will come if you offend people like Carlson or if you offend people like Dick Fuentes. They just don't. And so they do whatever. It's not about focusing your, you know, going after your adversaries on the left. It's about avoiding the criticisms from the right. That's what it's about. They just don't want to have to deal with the online mob.

[B]

This is a phenomenon we're seeing a lot now, which is you know, people are avoiding taking stands against things they previously would have opposed. Megyn Kelly has been very reluctant to go after Fuentes or Tucker or, excuse me, or Candace Owens. Similarly, I think Tucker, you know, he tangled about a month ago with Nick Fuentes over who was a federal operative or who. Whose dad was in the CIA in Tucker's case. And then, you know, according to Fuentes, and this didn't make it in the piece, but basically, right after the CIA fight, Tucker calls Fuentes up and he says, hey, you want to come on my show? So it's clearly like Tucker gets owned here. And then he's like, oh, God, I got to get right with this guy. Get him on my show.

[A]

Well, and I do think that's like a real side effect of online culture, which is that you are instantaneously going to be inundated with an online mob if they don't like you. And honestly, if you say even anodyne things, they'll. They'll come after you. And it. And it has a psychological effect on people in this business. It's kind of like audience capture where you just don't want to have to deal with that or you're afraid that you're going to lose audience. And all I can say is that as someone who takes it on the chin all the time online, me, it's good for you. You should embrace getting dunked on. It's fantastic. It's refreshing for the soul.

[B]

Well, you know, Sam, if getting dunked on is good for you, you must just be doing absolutely fabulous. Look at this day out.

[A]

You think that this is natural? No, this comes with people online screaming at me. It's like the greatest rejuvenation every day. I look forward to it. It's fantastic.

[B]

Well, I mean, the one thing I would say here, keep in mind, I mean, Nick Fuentes is a young guy in his 20s. He basically came out of nowhere, marched in Charlottesville, all this stuff. And I think it really tells you where the Dyn are in right wing media that you have someone as big as Tucker and also an institution like Heritage. Just these sort of behemoth of the maga movement saying, oh, yikes, excuse us.

[A]

Now they, Kevin Roberts did say, you know, I don't like Nick Fuentes in this video. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It's like they are so nervous about these little gripers who have huge followings that they bend over backwards to not look like they're not on the same page. All right, buddy, listen, thank you for this. I appreciate it appreciate you having to swim in these waters. I always say that, but it's true. You do a good service for us, so thank you for that. Everyone. Subscribe to False Flag, which is a must read newsletter. Even if I was joking, it really is a must read. Subscribe to this YouTube page where we have fun conversations like this and we'll catch you soon.