Bulwark Takes: "Heritage Chooses Tucker Over Its Own Principles"

Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Sam Stein (A), Will Sommer (B)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Tucker Carlson’s controversial interview with white nationalist Nick Fuentes and the Heritage Foundation’s response. Sam Stein and Will Sommer unpack why this signals a significant shift in what is considered acceptable in right-wing politics, examine the ongoing normalization of extremist voices, and critique influential conservative institutions—specifically Heritage—for prioritizing loyalty over principles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tucker Carlson’s Platforming of Nick Fuentes

• Background: On Monday, Tucker Carlson aired a much-anticipated interview with Nick Fuentes, known for his openly racist, antisemitic, and extremist views.
• Why It Matters: Will argues that this interview signifies more than just another right-wing controversy—it is a “seminal moment” in increasing normalization of previously taboo extremist figures and ideas.
  • Quote:

    “Tucker, I will say, basically let Nick Fuentes say whatever. I mean, at one point he talked about organized Jewry… He gave him this really massive platform.” (B, 01:01)

• Ripple Effect: Discusses how even within the “topsy turvy world of right wing media,” Fuentes was considered out-of-bounds—until now.
  • Quote:

    “This is someone that even in kind of the topsy turvy world of right wing media… was seen as someone you didn’t really pal around with or promote or collaborate with.” (B, 01:32)

2. The Shifting Boundaries of Acceptability on the Right

• Sam’s Skepticism: Sam expresses fatigue and skepticism, wondering if Fuentes was already considered “acceptable” given his past proximity to Trump and right-wing circles.
  • Quote:

    “I almost felt like he already had achieved acceptability. And I don't know why I felt that way, because… he actually did get into Mar a Lago.” (A, 02:31)

• Emerging Trends: Sommer points out the rise in open, “quasi joking” bigotry, especially among younger right-wing operatives—referenced through humiliating text leaks and social media behavior.
  • Quote:

    “I think the kind of younger crop of Republican operatives clearly has a ton of groiperism going on…” (B, 05:34)

• Platforming Cascade: The discussion speculates on whether this legitimization means Fuentes (or similar figures) might soon appear on larger platforms—Fox, Megyn Kelly, or even Ben Shapiro—with varying degrees of engagement.

3. The Heritage Foundation’s Reaction

• Heritage’s Video Statement: After public pressure to disavow Tucker Carlson, Heritage President Kevin Roberts released a video reaffirming unwavering support for Tucker despite his decision to platform Fuentes.
  • Clip Reaction:

    “Tucker Carlson… always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sewing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail.” (Roberts clip, 07:32)

• Sam’s Shock: Sam is surprised by the intensity and alignment of Heritage’s defense—labeling it unthinkable even five years ago.
  • Quote:

    “It was crazy. I mean, I can't even… It's hard to imagine the Heritage foundation doing this type of messaging five years ago. It really is the globalists or the mouthpieces of Washington, they're not going to be bullied by them.” (A, 08:54)

• Will’s Observation: Heritage’s quick defense and continued partnership with Carlson—even removing and then returning references to Tucker on their website—shows how right-wing institutions increasingly fear backlash from their own side more than public condemnation.

4. Fear of the Online Mob & “Audience Capture”

• Avoiding Right-Wing Criticism: The hosts agree that conservative organizations like Heritage avoid criticizing figures like Carlson or Fuentes, not out of loyalty but out of fear of the right-wing online mob.
  • Quote:

    “It's about avoiding the criticisms from the right. That's what it's about. They just don't want to have to deal with the online mob.” (A, 10:23)

• Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens Examples: Will notes that other figures are similarly cautious, choosing not to attack controversial personalities on “their side” to avoid backlash.
• Audience Capture: Sam articulates how being attacked online creates psychological pressure, driving organizations and individuals to bend to the loudest segments of their audience rather than their principles.
  • Quote:

    “It's kind of like audience capture where you just don't want to have to deal with that or you're afraid that you're going to lose audience.” (A, 11:30)

  • Memorable Banter:

    “Well, you know, Sam, if getting dunked on is good for you, you must just be doing absolutely fabulous.” (B, 12:08)

5. Generational Shifts & The Nick Fuentes Phenomenon

• Fuentes’ Rise: Will emphasizes how Nick Fuentes’ sudden ascent—from fringe marcher in Charlottesville to being openly embraced (or at least not condemned) by mainstream conservative institutions—reveals where the power and energy now lie in right-wing media.
• Institutional Nervousness: Heritage and similar organizations are portrayed as deeply anxious about being seen as out of step with, or hostile to, the new crop of hard-right activists.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the taboo being broken:

  “There was a pretty good taboo on… praising Hitler, questioning the Holocaust, that even persisted on the Right. And… it is a little silly… Tucker, now you’ve done it, now the Republicans are all going to be Nazis. When Trump did dine with him, although… that was treated as a huge disaster.” (B, 03:47)

• On normalization of extremism in younger generations:

  “This is getting so common now that I was just like… I can’t cover it. It’s the state level… we’ll be playing whack a mole.” (B, 06:11)

• On Heritage’s unwavering loyalty to allies:

  “Tucker always will be a close friend of Heritage. Always. Like, is there nothing Tucker can do that would, like, make you disavow the guy?” (A, 09:12)

• On right-wing institutions’ priorities:

  "It’s not about going after your adversaries on the left. It’s about avoiding the criticisms from the right." (A, 10:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] — Tucker Carlson’s Nick Fuentes interview: why it matters
• [02:18] — Debating whether Fuentes was already “acceptable” on the right
• [03:47] — Shifting taboos, “Hitler as a disaster” on the right
• [05:32] — “Groiperism” and normalized bigotry in Gen Z Republican circles
• [07:57] — Heritage Foundation’s wavering and video statement for Tucker
• [08:54] — Heritage’s surprising alignment with Carlson, messaging shift
• [10:23] — Fear of right-wing backlash; prioritizing in-group loyalty
• [11:30] — “Audience capture” and the psychological effect of the online mob
• [12:25] — Fuentes’ rise reflects new right-wing media dynamics

Tone & Closing

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and a bit exasperated—reflecting both the seriousness of the subject and the hosts’ fatigue with chronic right-wing boundary-breaking. The hosts end by reminding listeners of the necessity of criticism, regardless of online blowback, and encourage continued scrutiny and support for independent media.

For a deeper analysis, subscribe to Will Sommer’s newsletter False Flag and tune into The Bulwark for more critical takes on the shifting landscape of conservative politics.