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- [00:01]
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Tyler Redick
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Sonny Bunch
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Bulwark. I am Sonny Bunch. I'm culture editor at the Bulwark. And I'm really happy to be talking to Adrian Carrasquillo today of our Huddled Masses newsletter. You know, about immigration, dhs, ice, all that stuff, because we've got a little bit of a. We got a little bit of a mix here. We got a little bit of a, you know, a crossover event because Adrian had a really exciting interview with an actor on one of our favorite shows, the Pit. Adrian, who did you talk to and. And why were you talking to them?
- [01:14]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Yeah, first of all, I'm so excited to do our crossover event of the summer of, you know, I guess not the. Maybe the spring. It's really awesome to talk with you also about a show, the Pit, that I love. So I'm really glad that we had to talk about this. I spoke to Giselle Mariano, who actually plays one of the I agents. So this is the episode that people have been talking about. I know we'll get into it. Of, oh, the Pit is going to have an ICE episode. And, you know, we already know the politics of this last year, so we know how polarizing that would be and all those things. And I see this guy make a post and I don't even follow him yet.
- [01:43]
Sonny Bunch
Right.
- [01:43]
Adrian Carrasquillo
It's just the algorithm and. And he sort of makes a post. It's like, hey, guys, I played the ICE agent. Don't hate me, but. But, you know, he talks a little bit about being on one of his favorite shows and shows photos with the cast. And I was just like, intensely interested in this because I watch the show, I enjoy the show, and, you know, it talks about stuff that we are not familiar with in our personal lives at times, and it sort of humanizes doing things that you may not know about. And all of a sudden I'm getting hit over the head with immigration, which I'm covering all the time, and I'm like, ooh, this is a little bit. A little bit more serious. And it's kind of impacting me more than I thought just to see it dramatized in that way. Anyway, I talked to him and he said, look, I made the post because sometimes people have trouble separating the character from the actor. And so I thought that that was, like, fascinating. But he said he got so much support from the Pit fan base that they're a very savvy audience, that they understand he's playing a role. As I'm rewatching the scene, I'm thinking to myself, is it just me, or are they doing sort of like a good Ice Age and bad ICE agent vibe there? There's a tall guy with a mask and he's sort of. He looks very physically imposing because of his height, the way they shoot him, but at the same time, you know, he's got the mask on, so he looks like all these guys that we've seen in videos. It looks very intimidating. And then the guy that I'm speaking to, Giselle, he's playing an ICE agent who's showing his face. They're both ICE agents of color, which we can get into. Very fascinating and something that we've seen in real life. And so then you have. The guy with the mask is sort of more, you know, a little bit. You could tell he's a little bit more serious, a little bit meaner. And then Giselle, who we're talking to, is not just by showing his face, but you can even see in his. In his response to the Doctors and to the scene that he's a little bit nicer and things like that. So, anyway, I thought it was really cool and I was really glad to be able to talk to him for my. For my newsletter, which is going to get into. To ICE in hospitals and what that has looked like over the last year.
- [03:29]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, it's a really. It's a really interesting sequence in the show because the show has always. It's. It's funny watching the show because there's. It does this kind of, you know, Michael Crichton thing. And this, of course, was like, kind of started as an ER spin off, and there was. There was some drama there. So it's not. But Crichton was, you know, the guy who created er, but it does these things where, like, there are definitely, like, these little moments where the show stops and we're like, we're having a discussion about issues and then. And then. And then it goes on again. But this really incorporates the ice and hospitals thing into the flow of the episode very well. It kind of. These agents show up and it changes the dynamic of the entire ER for that. For that episode.
- [04:12]
Adrian Carrasquillo
And I mean, I don't know if you want to get Sonny into it quickly of just like that. This was talked about in the industry. Right. Like, Matt Bellamy talked about this, that people were like, oh, the. The ice in hospitals episode is coming. Yeah. I think that what I've always thought and the reason I say that it. It show. It showcases humanity. In this show me and immigration coverage, I've learned that. That, like, if I'm talking to you about half a million deportations, if I'm using these numbers, no one knows what that means. These numbers are sort of hard to understand when you zoom in and you tell a story of a kid in a detention center in Texas, things like that. So I've always noticed that, you know, there's one episode where there's a guy who's morbidly obese, and one of the young doctors is sort of judging him for his life choices. And then they get into like, oh, he actually was in a car accident, caused him to gain all this weight. So, like, they do this across all of their plot lines. But. But of course, when it. When they come in and in the show, it's. It's a lady who comes in who. Who's distraught not just because she's taken by agents, but because she's hurt her arm, because they've. They've raided a restaurant that she works in, and as people were running, she sort of got thrown down the stairs and she has a rotator cuff injury. And I think Dr. Robbie says he's probably a torn rotator cuff. So, you know, that's how they bring it into the episode. And now, you know, some of the controversy was, what are they going to do with this scene? How are they going to position it politically? Where is it? Just, like, complete compassion and empathy, and we feel bad for this person. And I think they tried to do a sort of middle of the road. There's multiple issues going on here. I think Dr. Ravi sort of says, like, the best thing we can do is treat her quickly and get her out, because this is going to affect the whole er. One thing that Giselle told me that I found fascinating is he didn't read through the whole script because he didn't want to be affected by the other stuff going on in the episode. He sort of wanted to keep a tunnel vision on being an ICE agent in this episode. And he said he didn't even know that other people, nurses, other healthcare practitioners and patients in the ER or waiting room, we're leaving because of the ICE agents. Right? And so funny enough and crazy enough, because this is sort of why I'm doing this newsletter and why I think it's really awesome. I spoke to this Professor Loyola who, like, does this stuff with medical ethics in hospitals and things, and he was telling me that sometimes ICE agents are just roaming the hospital, going to go get some food, going to come walk around, and they're terrifying everybody in the hospital. Right? So. So I thought that was, like, really interesting how, like, this real life thing is actually being echoed in the episode that you see a guy with a mask, people are like, like, what the hell's going on here? You know?
- [06:42]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, it's interesting. There are two. There are two kind of separate business of Hollywood slash culture things. First was, you know, the question of balance. Storytelling balance. Right. As you mentioned, the showrunner of the Pit was on Matt Bellamy's podcast, the Town, and it's. It's a. It's a really interesting interview. I think everyone should listen to it. You know, maybe we can link to it. But he. One of the things he's talking about is this need for balance. And let me just pull it up because. Because of the second issue here, which is that the. The Warner Brothers Paramount merger is, you know, happening right now. There's Warner Brothers, there's Netflix, there's Warner Brothers Paramount. There's a lot of talk about, you know, oh, we don't want to cause headaches with the administration. We don't want the administration to, you know, turn the eye of Sauron on us. We don't want to, like, you know, cause any. Cause any issues here. So this is what the showrunner, this guy Wells, said. No, they being hbo, just want to make sure it was balanced. The thing we have to be careful about when we're talking about any of these issues, when we're talking about vaccines, when we're talking about the way in which the health care system works, is to make certain that we're actually presenting both points of view, because we're not really in the business of preaching to the choir on the show. There are real issues about immigration. There are real issues about immigration enforcement within public health system in which you really need people to come in. That's what we were dealing with. And they just wanted to make sure it was balanced. They weren't saying don't do this or don't do that, end quote. And that. That's really interesting because honestly, this is one place where you don't need balance. This is why, like, it's not a news show. This isn't Dateline. It's not, it's not, you know, the NBC Nightly News. It's not cbs. Whatever you. It's like this is a TV show. You can have a point of view here. And still I think that is dramatically more satisfying to have that kind of. Well, on the one hand. On the other,
- [08:43]
Adrian Carrasquillo
first of all, thank you for saying of this administration, the Eye of Sauron, I tried to put that in a story one time and I think they thought it was too nerdy. And so they're just like, this is not making into the story.
- [08:52]
Sonny Bunch
But I was like, don't let, don't let Sam take your. Take out your.
- [08:57]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Did take out my Lord of the Rings reference. And you know, I think later in that interview he also says, we also know during this administration telling certain stories can get, you know, like again, can get that eye towards you can just bring up maybe headlines they don't want while they're trying to deal with this merger stuff. So, yeah, I think that, look, for the most part, I thought it was a pretty good portrayal. I didn't think that they, they held back in a super hard way. There is that the actor did say they cut down that scene. So when I told him was there like a good ice agent, bad ice agent thing going on? He said, yeah, like, I'm glad you noticed because there we, we. I sort of tried to do a good cop, bad cop thing. He's like. But I didn't know if it was going to sort of be evident in the scene because they cut it down. He's like, that episode is jam packed. He's like, if you watch that episode, it's jam packed. He's like. So I don't know if it was length of episode or content that they shut. They cut down that scene. He did say, interestingly, that the, the woman who plays the detainee tells her story to like one of the doctors or nurses and that the he as the ICE agent without the mask overhears it and has like a, a reaction to that, an emotional reaction. So they did cut that out. Right. So, so you, you start, you do think about the content and what could have been in that scene. Look, I, I am a religious pit watcher and I do Love that show. There's an episode earlier this season where there's a Haitian family and there's a young son being taken care of, a young man being taken care of by his older sister. And once you find out sort of what's the drama here? What's the tension that their parents were deported to Haiti, and then the sisters. The doctors do say something. One of the people who's working with the family says something to the effect of like, well, also, maybe. Maybe they are going to have to deport him. It's actually better sometimes for young kids to be back with their parents. So I also thought, like, maybe they're trying to show balance on immigration this season. And, you know, the ice. The ICE episode may not have as much of that balance for obvious reasons, but, yeah, I mean, look, you could see it in the episode where people were terrified and people are leaving. I found it interesting that Dr. Robbie was, like, saying, some of my nurses are leaving, and some. You might not want to say who's leaving and who's scared for various reasons. Like, I think the. One of the characters said, oh, no, I'm here legally, but I'm still terrified. Right. Like, because I have this whatever status and I'm not trying to deal with this. Right. So it was just fascinating. It was fascinating to see this issue that I deal with all the time, like, blown up in one of my favorite shows.
- [11:22]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, no, it's. It was a. It's a. It's a really good episode. So when you were. So you said that the actor has had pretty good response to it. People have been pretty sympathetic and. And understanding, because a lot of the times in these online fan spaces, there's. There's not a lot of nuance and depiction and endorsement. You know, he said.
- [11:42]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Pretty understanding. What I did mention to him was I saw this. It's like this. This thread or something, right? From threads. And it just seemed like a bot. It was like, I'm no longer watching this show that I watch all the time. You know what I mean? And I was like, so it made me think about the whole bots of it all and the immigration piece. And he said, it's funny you say that. He said, I put this post up and I get mostly nice responses, like, you know, the Preponderance. Right. Over 90%. He's like. And then I get this one weird comment from a profile that seems fake that says, like, oh, you're. You know, you're leaning into this and you're un American or whatever it is, and. And he says, all the people start defending me in the comments. So now that makes that comment rise. And now it's one of the most prominent comments because all these people responding, he's like, and I wish people just weren't responding to this comment.
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Sonny Bunch
You know, that is a, that is the algorithm in a nutshell right there. That is like so many nice comments. And then one bit of antagonism kind of comes up because that's what gets juiced. It's. That's a, that's, that is a whole nother podcast right there. We. I want to talk to you a little bit about the Pit because I have wanted to talk to folks about the show. I know, you know, we have fans, fans of the show here at the podcast. I know Jonathan Cohn has been trying to get Noah Wiley to talk to him. So if, no, if you're listening, no guy who wants to talk to you. And it really does feel like the TV industry is reinventing the procedural from first principles. It's like, well, you know, what worked? Er, that worked for a long time. Maybe we do that again. And you know what? Gosh darn if it doesn't. If it doesn't work. I say this as somebody who has always been kind of, I don't need csi, I don't need Law and Order, but like, the Pit. Love it. I love it.
- [13:21]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Yeah. I was so glad you reminded me to listen to the Matt Bellany episode because I had. I like to listen to the watch from the ringer and they had mentioned it also that, like, there was this sort of like, drama in the background, but the entire beginning of that podcast is like, why does this show work? What tax credits are we getting from California? Yes, we built this super expensive set, but we use it all the time. They're not going to Dr. Robbie's house and they don't need to show that set. Right. So. So I love that it's, yeah, going back to sort of old tv, but I think the, the showrunner was also saying that people want this. They, they want a show that they can watch weekly and then talk to their friends about. And I feel like that's an old idea. And we talk about, you know, monoculture and we talk about the water cooler show. But like, I have. My, My brother in law is like, oh, I want to, I want some episodes to rack up so I can watch them together. I'm like, no, I love to watch it just like, episode. Because so much happens to the, to the actor's point. There's so much Jam packed into these episodes that I actually do enjoy just sort of that once a week, like, whoa. Getting hit with. Honestly, I kind of. That when they get out of that humanity stuff, I feel like it's a lot of what we've gotten away from with this administration. So I do feel like it's a balm for the soul a little bit when I'm watching that show. Even when it gets tough to watch, I'm like, it feels good, you know.
- [14:32]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. I will say the weekly structure of it is great too because my, my wife and I, we were late to it. We did not watch it on a week to week basis. We. We like kind of binged it after, after that first season or like towards the end of that first season, we. We binged it to kind of catch up. And it was a lot. That was, that was, that was overwhelming to watch hour after hour, you know, on the couch there. That's not, not fun. Do not recommend.
- [14:57]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Yeah.
- [14:59]
Sonny Bunch
Too tense. But it is, it is, it is so good. And it is, it's just, it's not quite the same like hope core thing of Ted Lasso. Right. It's not, it's not saccharine. There aren't. There are life lessons, but it's not like, here's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a little speech. It just feels like a nice real thing of people trying their best. That's what I think that's what people want right now.
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Tyler Redick
Yeah.
- [15:28]
Adrian Carrasquillo
And if we're doing the half cup empty, half cup full thing. I love industry on HBO and that shows sort of like, like, like, you know, it's pigs wrestling in the mud of, of what our world is now. And it's showing us this like, terrible version, but we're kind of like, it's kind of real that these people exist. This is what our society is now. And so I feel like the pit is also showing us humanity and, and some of the dark side, but a little bit more hopeful like ultimately, like if we kind of, if we, if we work together and we can, you know, we can cross some of our divides and things. But yeah, I love that show. I love that cast. So just being able to interview one of the actors and. But then getting into this issue that is going around, I mean, and that's one of the things he got into, which was he said that Giselle Mariano said that there are things that we don't consider because we don't live our lives. Like, you know, we may not ever be faced with an ICE agent or concerns about ice enforcement. But all of a sudden, this episode makes you consider that and sort of, you know, have that empathy or compassion. And I think I've always thought about the show doing that, like, things that I would never consider or that would never affect me. You know, if it's a woman dealing with pregnancy, different things, where all of a sudden you're kind of putting those shoes and that's good for all of us, you know?
- [16:36]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. It's hard to imagine a place where you need more empathy than an ER just dealing with all these random things. Well, Adrian, your newsletter is Huddled Masses. Everybody should make sure. If you haven't signed up for the newsletters, if you haven't signed up for Bulwark plus, go do it. Like, I don't know what you're waiting on. But again, the newsletter is Huddled masses. Google it and read this one because it's great. You gotta check it out. Watch the pit. Everybody loves the Pit. It's a fun show. I hope folks read your newsletter and check it out. Thanks for talking with me about this episode.
- [17:11]
Adrian Carrasquillo
Thanks so much, Sunny. This has been really fun.
- [17:13]
Tyler Redick
Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing Victory Lane. Yeah, it's even better. With Chumba by my side. Race to chumbacasino.com, let's Chumba. No purchase necessary VTW Group voidware prohibitor by law. CTNC's 21+ sponsored by Chumba Casino.
- [17:28]
Josh Spiegel
Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen today.
- [17:58]
Alex Canceroitz
Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.