Holy Cow, THIS Is How You Beat Trump!

Summary

Bulwark Takes – “Holy Cow, THIS Is How You Beat Trump!”

Date: April 20, 2026
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: Sarah Longwell
Theme: Effective Democratic Messaging: Lessons from Ossoff and Buttigieg

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on what Democrats can learn from the recent public performances of two rising party figures: Senator Jon Ossoff of Georgia and Secretary Pete Buttigieg. Sam Stein and Sarah Longwell discuss why their approach to communication—in tone, setting, and strategy—offers a template for successfully countering Trump and expanding the Democratic coalition in 2026 and beyond. The conversation pushes back on debates about media platforms, emphasizing authenticity, direct voter engagement, and strategic messaging as keys to political success.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rejecting the Podcast Discourse: It's About the Candidate, Not the Platform

• Sarah Longwell criticizes the debate over which podcasts or new media outlets Democratic candidates should appear on.

  • Quote [01:28]:

  “I couldn't think those [media debates] are more silly. Because what you need to do, this was always about the candidates. It’s not about the podcasters... Can candidates walk into places… like Oklahoma, like Kansas, like Georgia… and pitch a compelling message, which is a contrast message?” – Sarah Longwell

• The real job is engaging with “real people, real voters,” not just catering to online audiences or echo chambers.

2. Ossoff’s Messaging: Clear, Contrasting, and Relatable

• Ossoff’s Speech [03:27–05:25]:

  • Lays out a strong financial critique against Trump (“ground beef’s up 20% since Trump took office. Coffee, 40%. Health premiums through the roof.”)

  • Directly ties Trump’s corruption to everyday economic pain.

  • Uses humor, storytelling, and a calm, preacher-like cadence.

  • Notable Quote [03:27]:

    “While you pay more for everything, the First Family’s wealth is growing by billions of dollars because they're crooks and everybody knows it.” – Jon Ossoff

• Sarah on Ossoff [05:40]:

  “He is making fun of them… He is telling a story about what Trump is doing, and he is tying that corruption directly to affordability… That is the contrast message there.”

• Sam highlights Ossoff’s unique delivery: calming but “piercing,” and notably, “good viral content.”

3. Style vs. Substance: The Resonance of Authenticity

• Discussion on whether moderation is about policies or about a candidate’s temperament.

  • Quote [08:15]:

    “When people talk about authenticity, what they mean is… does it seem like you mean it? Does it seem like you know what you're talking about, does it seem like you feel it in your bones?” – Sarah Longwell

• The importance of “comfort in your own skin.” Voters sense “artifice,” forced affect, or inauthenticity quickly.

• Using swearing or marketing stunts doesn’t make a candidate relatable unless it’s genuine.

  • Quote [09:45]:

    “If you’re doing it to sound like you’re a real person, everyone feels that you can smell it.” – Sarah Longwell

4. Buttigieg in Oklahoma: Go Everywhere, Talk to Everyone

• Buttigieg’s Tulsa town hall [11:19–13:07] is praised for both courage (Democrats rarely visit such red states) and substance.

  • Quote [11:19]:

    “We’re not just educating people to be workers, we’re educating people to be citizens and to think… We need to defend the independence of these institutions and their ability to think for themselves.” – Pete Buttigieg

• Sarah underscores Buttigieg’s understanding of GOP infrastructure and the need for Dems to build similar, broader-reaching institutions.

• She references the Trump Tulsa rally, noting the contrast Buttigieg offers: “Pete’s saying, I know everybody matters here… I'm not just trying to win an election. I'm trying to win a conversation about America and who we are.” [14:00]

5. Democrats’ Outdated Media Habits and Missed Chances

• Sam Stein recaps years of Democratic reluctance to reach “the other side”—not only by avoiding Fox News but by failing to invest in new outreach.

  • Quote [14:19]:

    “As long as I've covered them… they have been totally fine talking to their own side. And that's it. And I don’t get it.”

• Bernie Sanders is cited as a rare counter-example who “goes everywhere,” even places Democrats have written off.

6. Building a Broad Coalition: Lessons from Trump’s Success

• Sarah: “If [Democrats] want to be the party of college educated suburban voters, they can be, but there’s not enough of them for a winning political coalition... you have to win working class voters. That’s what Trump has done…” [16:34]

7. Electability and the Democratic Bench

• Discussion about Buttigieg’s strengths and challenges: He shows up everywhere and could win broadly, but needs to win over Black primary voters [18:21–18:53].
• Comparison to Gavin Newsom, whose “book sales tactics” are portrayed as less authentic and effective than Buttigieg’s “toe to toe, face to face” style [19:20].

8. Contrasting Styles in ‘Going Hard’

• Ossoff’s “measured, like a metronome”; Buttigieg “dismantles opponents” calmly.
  • Quote [20:36]:

    “He will take you down limb from limb… I needed a smoke afterwards, it was so good.” – Sarah Longwell

9. Forward Looking, Not Just Fixing the Past

• Buttigieg warns against “just piecing together the shit that Trump broke”—Democrats must offer a vision beyond restoration [21:06].

  • Quote [21:06]:

    “My word of warning… is that we would make a terrible mistake if we thought that our job was to just take power…and then put everything back the way it was. That's not what we’re here to do.” – Pete Buttigieg

• Sam and Sarah connect this to Obama’s “beyond the politics of the past” message.

10. New Tactics—A United Front and Community

• Sarah floats the idea of Democratic contenders touring together as a “team,” not waiting for competitive debates to showcase ideas, authenticity, and camaraderie:
  • Quote [23:01]:

    “I wouldn't wait for debates and being pitted against each other. I'd hit the road together. I'd sit down and be like, let's talk about what the future looks like. Let's talk about our ideas… Let people see you bounce off each other.” – Sarah Longwell

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Him bad. We good.” (Sarah Longwell’s go-to campaign advice, [02:58])
• On Ossoff’s style:

  “He does this every week. He’s got this quality speaking about him that I think is both calming but also piercing… And it makes for great viral content.” – Sam Stein [02:59]

• On Buttigieg’s message:

  “We need to defend the independence of these institutions and their ability to think for themselves.” – Pete Buttigieg [12:50]

• On authenticity:

  “You cannot be prescriptive about this. You can just know it when you see it. And that guy has it.” – Sarah Longwell [10:17]

• On strategy:

  “You have to build infrastructure. You have to build institutions to reach people who otherwise aren’t reachable.” – Sam Stein [14:19]

• On coalition-building:

  “If they want to be the party of college educated suburban voters, they can be, but there’s not enough of them.” – Sarah Longwell [16:34]

• On media savviness:

  “With Trump, he could always get an audience because he was outrageous, because he just had ubiquity and he was a good media manipulator.” – Sam Stein [17:06]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:28 – 02:59: Critique of media focus; setting up the "Him bad. We good" message.
• 03:27 – 05:25: Ossoff’s speech excerpt and analysis.
• 07:03 – 09:11: Style versus substance—Ossoff’s and Obama’s similarities.
• 11:19 – 13:07: Buttigieg in Tulsa; challenge of bringing Democratic ideas to conservative areas.
• 13:56 – 15:06: Democrats’ failure to reach outside their base.
• 16:34 – 17:31: The need to build a broad, working-class coalition.
• 18:21 – 19:36: Buttigieg’s and Newsom’s presidential prospects.
• 21:06 – 22:21: Buttigieg’s “forward, not backward” message.
• 23:01 – 23:46: Suggestion for a joint candidate tour; building community.

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Conclusion

This episode is a vibrant, practical guide on the importance of candidate authenticity, direct engagement with voters, and forward-looking messaging. It elevates Ossoff and Buttigieg as models who “get it”—not because of their ideology, but their comfort in their own skin and willingness to go everywhere with a clear contrast message. For Democrats asking “how do we beat Trump?” Sarah and Sam lay it out: Get beyond safe spaces, be authentic, draw unmistakable contrasts, and offer a hopeful vision for the future.

Memorable Campaign Slogan, distilled:
“Him bad. We good.” – Sarah Longwell [02:58]

Transcript

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Sam Stein]

Visit spinquest.com for more details. All right. Hey, everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, here again with Sarah Longwell. We're going to talk about a set of speeches from budding young Democrats over the weekend that I think stood out to both of us in part because, you know, the quality of the message and then in part because of where it was delivered. Talking about John Ossoff, senator from Georgia, and Pete Buttigieg, who is likely to run for president in 2028. I saw just clips of this. I know, Sarah, you saw much more than I did. And you were really hot to talk about this. Why?

[Sarah Longwell]

Because I think that there's been a very stupid conversation happening about, you know, which podcasts should candidates go on and, you know, who's the new left, Joe Rogan and all this stuff. And like, I couldn't be more. I couldn't think those are more silly. Because what you need to do, this was always about the candidates. It's not about the podcasters. Like, all of that stuff is stealing attention from. Can candidates walk into places where, like Oklahoma, like Kansas, like Georgia, which is Ossoff's home state. But can in those places, can these candidates pitch a compelling message, which is a contrast message? Let me tell you all the way, all the ways Donald Trump is destroying things, how corrupt he is, how Epstein, like whatever. Him bad, right? We good. This is what Democrats need to do. Him bad. We. We good. And, and so Pete and Ossoff have been out there doing the thing where it needs to be done, the shoe leather, with real people, real voters, not people who sit on streams and podcasts. But. And look, those people vote too sometimes. But these are the actual places the candidates need to go. So I have been almost giddy to watch them. Ossoff has been pounding away at Trump doing perfect messaging in the way that I've been begging Democrats to start talking. Do you have a clip?

[Sam Stein]

Hold on. I just. Before I get that, I want to make sure I get this sage advice from you written down. Him bad.

[Sarah Longwell]

Him bad. We good?

[Sam Stein]

We. We good. Okay. It's giving away some free advice to campaigns here. All right, let's play the Ossoff clip, which was really good. I'll say this about Ossoff. He does this every week. It seems like he's got this event in Georgia and he's got this quality speaking about him that I think is both calming but also piercing. And it makes for great viral content because it always gets passed around. This one in particular stood out. Let's play the clip now.

[John Ossoff (clip)]

Augusta. I don't know if you saw, but J.D. vance was in Georgia this week. Don't worry, no one showed up. The stadium. The stadium was empty. Did you see that? But jd came to uga to attack the pope. Two days after Donald Trump depicted himself as Jesus Christ. The faithless president depicts himself as Christ while he plunges the nation into wars of choice, while he and his family rake in billions from foreign princes, while he plunders our health care to cut taxes to for the rich. Meanwhile, rent, power, groceries, and health care have all hit all time highs this year. This year, ground beef's up 20% since Trump took office. Coffee, 40%. Health premiums through the roof. And remember, while you pay more for everything, the First Family's wealth is growing by billions of dollars because they're crooks and everybody knows it.

[Sam Stein]

I'll just say before you jump in, this guy offers this kind of preacher's cadence in this kind of slow, methodical delivery. He's Jewish. Just want to be clear. That man is Jewish, but he's talking like he's in the pews.

[Sarah Longwell]

The work is all in the pauses, Sam. It's all in the pauses, I gotta tell you. But he's doing everything. Look, it's not about me. It's not about what lands with me. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, this is the thing I've been begging for. That is it right there. He is not exercised. But he is making fun of them. Yeah, and he kept doing this thing. It's not in this clip exactly, but he kept saying, I don't know if you guys have heard about it, because he understands that not everybody is following all of the insane machinations of what he's done. He's telling a story about what Trump is doing, and he is tying that corruption directly to affordability. Affordability is not just a buzzword, right? It is a thing where you are saying he is still. He is doing this bad thing and you are hurting. Right? That is the contrast message there. And there are places elsewhere where then he gets into what he would do, what he believes it, Right? Which is the we good part. He delivers it all. And the whole time his dimple is working, that shirt is tight across his chest. He is as handsome. He is as handsome. And look, not even for me, but I am sitting there being like, hi. Hey, John. He is the kind of person that everybody's like, what a nice young man he looks like. And they know who they said that about. They said it about Barack Obama.

[Sam Stein]

Hope is that thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us if we have the courage to reach for it and to work for it and to fight for it. This is my question for you. This is my question for you. Well, well, first of all, I appreciate that he does it for you. Secondly, this is like, you know, Jewish mom's dream, basically, this guy. Third, though, in a serious note, is like, people are always talking about moderates and the need to run moderates and centrism and all that stuff. And I get it, and I. I see the case and I see the merit. But how much is it, in your estimation, policy moderation versus stylistic moderation, not being a fire breather, talking slow and professionally, looking calm and relaxed? I mean, that was Obama a little bit too right. Like, it was. He was just chill. And that was his whole Persona. Chill, not exercised. I got this done, don't worry. And I feel like Ossoff's kind of going for the same thing. I don't know if that translates the same way as policy moderation, but I'm curious how you interpret that and whether that's the type of stuff that comes up in all these focus groups that you do.

[Sarah Longwell]

Now, here's what he has, and it has nothing to do with moderate versus progressive. It's not even temperamental moderation versus policy moderation. That is a guy who is comfortable in his own skin. When people talk about authenticity, what they mean is, when I'm watching you, when I'm listening to you, does it feel, can I see all the artifice? Or does it seem like you mean it? Does it seem like you know what you're Talking about, does it seem like you feel it in your bones? And the way he's talking feels like this is who this guy is. And so, like, you don't need to be prescriptive about how exactly people need to do it. Now, look, I reject the centrist progressive frame because I don't think it's helpful, because the voters are neither centrist nor progressive. They are a weird salad that have sometimes strong opinions about things and sometimes no opinions about things.

[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so the question is, is, can you build trust with them? Do they feel like you care about them? Do they feel like you're going to care about the things that are going to help them in their lives? And, like, some of it is, like, in the. Not fire breathing. It's more like, do I feel like I can tolerate you for a long time?

[Sam Stein]

It's like, I'm not acting a long time.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I'm not acting for the sake of trying to win your vote. Like, that's it. The artifice is what you're talking about. And like, you can tell when a politician is just putting on some shine. Right. And it's just like they're screaming, but why? Or like, you know, they're telling bad jokes that someone wrote for them. It's like, you don't need that.

[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Or so one of the things that I have seen is that, you know, Democrats are all getting this. This authenticity memo, and so they've decided to start swearing. And I think that that's sort of a goofy thing, because if you're good at swearing, like, if you're somebody who naturally authentically uses it in front of people in these ways, then. Then maybe that works. Uh, but if you're doing it to sound like you're a real person, everyone feels that you can smell it. This is one of those things. This is like the. The Supreme Court justice, when asked for a definition of art versus pornography, and he says, I know it when I can see it. You cannot be prescriptive about this. You can just know it when you see it. And that guy has it, and I have been feeling it.

[Sam Stein]

Well, he didn't swear in that clip, notably. All right. Another guy who people at the Bulwark Team tend to like, but also I think Fairly is also comfortable in his own skin and comes off authentically is Pete Buttigieg. Interesting. Here is the. The setting you. You referenced it above. He was in Tulsa, and the reports are something like 1800 people or something crazy like that. People can fact check me in. The comments showed up because Democrats don't normally go to Tulsa. Now, Tulsa's, you know, a city and one of Oklahoma's, you know, hubs, but still, like to have a Democrat step foot in that state is notable. And while he was there, in sort of an interesting, almost ironic Q and A part, he was asked about talking to people who, you know, hold different views. And he's talking a little bit about tpusa, the conservative organization that shows up at college campuses a lot and made real inroads. And let's hear what Pete had to say.

[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

One of the number one reasons I'd be worried living in a state with education ranked 50th out of 50 is that if people aren't ready to think for themselves, we're gonna have a problem. Because we're not just educating people to be workers, we're educating people to be citizens and to think. So part of it's investing in our education system. Part of it, I think, is outreach. Look, I'll give, as a tactical matter, I'll give the turning point folks a lot of strategic credit for going to, to a lot of different places. Again, you know, to them, going to these college campuses is kind of the equivalent in their minds of the way I feel when I go on Fox News. The difference is when I go on Fox News, I'm telling the truth. But, but that idea of going everywhere, some we got to do too. You know, this idea developed a long time ago that, that the universities kind of served the left. And so they're going to have these think tanks and organizations and corporate funded efforts to kind of counterbalance that and serve the right. But right now it's not really working the same way that it used to in terms of where the left gets its ideas. Actually, I think this is a real problem for anybody left of center in this country. All the more important then to cultivate independent thinking. And I think one of the reasons why institutions like universities and museums and national parks and late night television, comedy and journalism have come under attack is not because they are liberal, it's because they are independent. And we need to defend the independence of these institutions and their ability to think for themselves.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh my God, it's so good. Also, listen, this is not. But I, it's like he read my book. Like, this is, I talk about this. This is the way that Republicans have built their infrastructure and the way that Democrats have not built that infrastructure. And so they've got to start thinking about how they can go to all of these places that already exist and then like, build new Things to amplify those messages. Like, I feel like he has grasped the essential thing about you got to build new things. You got to go talk to everybody, everything, everywhere, all at once. Communication strategy. And not again, like, people get bogged down in these questions about podcasts and streamers and who's in the tent and who's not in the tent. Don't talk to me. Don't go talk to them. Talk to these people. Do you know why? And like this, this idea that he is in Tulsa. Remember what happened last time in Tulsa? It was when Trump went there.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. It was Covid Central. Herman. Herman King died.

[Sarah Longwell]

Died from that. From that rally. But here's what Pete's doing. Pete's saying, I know everybody matters here. And, and I'm going to go to these places because I'm going to. I'm not just trying to win an election. I'm trying to win a conversation about America and who we are. And like, that is what I appreciate.

[Sam Stein]

Well, let me just do a quick correction. They, of course, can come on our program and talk to us. We would welcome them all the time. But they should go on the other ones, too. I've long found it incredibly inexplicable, Inexplicable That Democrats don't Trump, try every night or every day to just get on Fox. What's the downside? They're going to. They're going to. They're going to absolutely vilify you no matter what. So you might as well put a human face on it. You might as well try to reach people who aren't getting your message anyway. But it's not just Fox. You have to build infrastructure. You have to build institutions to reach people who otherwise aren't reachable. You have to figure it out. You have to do it creatively. And frankly, Democrats, as long as I've covered them, it's been about almost 20 years now. They have been totally fine talking to their own side.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

And that's it. And I don't get it. But Pete, you know the one, it's funny because the other person who's done this is someone, like, totally on the opposite side of the ideological ledger for Democrats, which is Bernie Sanders. Bernie goes all over the place. I mean, he did famously go to West Virginia to sell Obamacare, which he didn't even like as a law, but he was selling it during the first Trump administration because it was under attack. And these crowds would show up and they're like, hell, yeah, we love it. Finally, someone is paying attention to us.

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[Sarah Longwell]

Well, part of it too is about what kind of coalition do Democrats want to build? Because if they want to be the party of college educated suburban voters, they can be, but there's not enough of them. There's not enough of them for a winning political coalition. And so like you have to win working class voters. Like, this is what Trump has done that has changed the game for the two parties that I'm not sure other Republicans are going to be capable of doing, but I'm sure that Democrats need to figure out how to do again, which is to say, I care about working people. That's what I'm here to. That's what I'm here to talk about.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I don't know if Republicans are going to be able to capture what Trump did partly because of his ubiquity and his media presence. Right. Like, that's just, that really was a game changer because really hard to reach. Just as I said, you should go there everywhere. It's hard because everywhere is so vast. It's hard to get on every channel. And then of course, even if you go there, it's not like you're guaranteed to get an audience. But with Trump, he could always get an audience because he was outrageous, because he just had ubiquity and he was a good media manipulator.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think there's a lot of concern or skepticism that Pete, because he is gay, can win in America. And I just think that he can. He is doing something that nobody else is. First of all. So Ossoff is giving these speeches because Ossoff is running a race for Senate right now. Okay. So he's got to be out there. Those are not presidential level speeches, even though they sound like it to me. He's raising huge dollars in Georgia, which money is not just about money. Money is a metric for enthusiasm. But Pete is out there saying, I'm going to run in 2028. And the way I'm going to do that is right now I'm going to start early, I'm going to go all kinds of places and I'm going to show people who I am in, in long form, going to hang out with them, they're going to see me. And to me, that is the way I have been feeling. Both these guys.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I mean, Pete's, I agree with you that he can win, but his problem, obviously, is not, is less the general, it's more the primary. Right. I mean, he needs to get black primary voters to support.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is the constant sort of knock on Pete is the idea that sort of black voters don't support him. And he does have work to do in that area, I think, though. I mean, he looks like a guy capable of doing that work. Right. I mean, he looks like a guy who, he knows, he knows his vulnerabilities. And he's doing this even before the midterms. He's out there showing up, trying to figure out, like, how do I put this coalition together, how do I let them put eyes on me and hear me.

[Sam Stein]

I will say that next, next to Newsom, who, by virtue of the redistricting fight and his book and just his, you know, being the governor of California, I think Pete, it's fair to say, has probably been the most out there Democrat of all the 20 28ers. I mean, he does events regularly. He's going on PODC. He's in the Zeitgeist. He's talking, he's engaging, he's going on Fox. Like, he's doing the stuff to make sure that people remember he's there. And the numbers are pretty steady for him. Like, they're, they're, they're there.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, he needs to pick it up. I mean, look, here's the thing about Newsom, though, and I think there's a story about him recently where he, he purchased a great deal of the books that comprised his book sale.

[Sam Stein]

Well, he did it in a roundabout way. You had to donate to his pack. And no matter what the donation was, you got a buck. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. That to me is a pretty good encapsulation of Newsom in a way where Pete, Pete is doing the thing. Pete is not Pete is saying, I'm going to go toe to toe and face to face, I'm going to show up. I'm going to show up, and I'm going to be there. And over time, when you do that, enough voters respond to that. Right. Voters say, I see you showing up. I see you trying to win me over. That's what they want. And they want to see that you can articulate a strong case against these people. I'll tell you, Ossoff's going hard in the paint, which I think voters really want, but he's doing in a way that is sort of like, measured, like a metronome.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Whereas Pete is also is going hard in kind of a. In a. In a petish kind of way. But he's.

[Sam Stein]

What is. What does Pete going hard even look like? It's not.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. I mean, well, it's like. It's like. You know what? Honestly, it's just he. He is a. He is a man with the best words. And so he will sit there with what, Joe Kernan on cnbc.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, that was very good.

[Sarah Longwell]

He will take you down limb from limb.

[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

What are you going to do differently to make the prices actually go down like you promised? Number one, we got to get through this war. And you've heard people get through this war. We didn't have to be fighting this war. What are we doing?

[Sarah Longwell]

I needed to smoke afterwards. It was so good. And I just.

[Sam Stein]

That was a good one.

[Sarah Longwell]

I love watching Pete dismantle people in his chill kind of way.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I want to talk about one other thing. He said he was talking about how Democrats have to. It's not enough to just piece together the shit that Trump broke.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

But that Democrats have to look forward.

[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

Picture the day when the current president, for the. The first time that the sun comes up over Tulsa and the current president has left the political scene. Right. Definitely. Definitely something to look forward to. But then what? Then what? And my word of warning to my own political party is that we would make a terrible mistake if we thought that our job was to just take power somehow and then put everything back the way it was. That's not what we're here to do.

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[Pete Buttigieg (clip)]

We're not out to go around and just find all the little bits and pieces of everything that they smashed and tape it together and say, here you go. I give you the world as it looked in 2023. That's not going to work. It's not what we need. So much has changed. And the truth is they are destroying things right and left. They're destroying a lot of good, important things. They're destroying some useless things too, because they're destroying everything. So now we get a chance to put things together on different terms.

[Sam Stein]

We just talked about Obama and that is Obama s. Basically. I mean, that's just. Basically, it's like when he was running against Bush. He's like, we got to move beyond the politics of the past. Right? That was the entire message. And I do think there's virtue to it. Obviously, Obama won, but, you know, people want to like, as much as it's anger and hatred of Trump that motivates so many voters these days, and as much as there is going to have to be a real cleanup job, I think fundamentally, to get people who are not necessarily going to vote Democratic to vote Democratic, you have to be more forward looking. And he recognizes that.

[Sarah Longwell]

And can I just say that you want another piece of advice that is right up there with him bad. We good?

[Sam Stein]

We good? Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Him bad. We good. When you watch these guys, I would, I think a lot about the bulwark and how like, to build a community, you have to be a community. Right. One of the things people like is that we all kind of bounce off each other. I think if I were Pete and I were Jon Ossoff and I were people who were looking to make a pitch in 2020, I wouldn't wait for debates and being pitted against each other. I'd hit the road together. I'd sit down and be like, let's talk about what the future looks like. Let's talk about our ideas. Let's engage, let's argue. Like, let people see you bounce off each other.

[Sam Stein]

Now that is interesting. That's intriguing.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think that people all talk about reaching across the aisle and we got a, you know, who does it? You know who does it? Bernie and AOC do it. They've got like kind of a generational buddy thing where they appear together and stuff.

[Sam Stein]

People, but they're not competing against each other.

[Sarah Longwell]

Doesn't matter. If I were people who wanted to be top tier contenders, I would be like, let's do it together. It's like on Survivor, right? You got to trust some people in the beginning. You can cut your throats at the very end, but to go far, you gotta be. You gotta be together. You gotta. You gotta trust each other for, for, for, you know, parts of the game.

[Sam Stein]

All right, we'll see if anyone picks up on that idea. Sarah, thank you so much. Great being back with you. Everyone subscribe to the Bulwark where we take time out of our Busy Sundays and YouTube with each other. Just what we do. Bye Bye.

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