Holy Cow, Young Conservatives Are NOT Okay

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Holy Cow, Young Conservatives Are NOT Okay"

Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jonathan V. Last (“JVL”)

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Episode Overview

In this bracing episode, Tim Miller and Jonathan V. Last dissect a jaw-dropping focus group with Gen Z Republicans conducted by the Manhattan Institute. The pair dive deep into the disturbing, reactionary, and at times openly bigoted opinions that emerged, questioning what this says about the future of the conservative movement, the normalization of extremist discourse, and how leading Republican figures are navigating (and enabling) this rising tide. The tone is incredulous, darkly humorous, and urgent, with Miller and JVL oscillating between sharp critique and gallows humor as they process the group's shocking views.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 'Focus Group from Hell'

[01:00–02:09]

• The Manhattan Institute, historically mainstream, hosted a focus group with Gen Z Republicans.
• JVL provides context: If The Bulwark had published these results, conservatives would accuse them of "nutpicking." The Manhattan Institute, however, seems unfazed at the extremity.
• Quote:
  • “Let’s just start with the Hitler stuff.” – JVL [01:40]

2. Flirting with Fascism – Gen Z's Takes on Hitler

[02:09–04:07]

• Participants praise Hitler’s "leadership," even if they caveat it with “terrible intentions.”
• Explicit endorsements of strongman governance, nationalism, and 'taking America back' echo the rhetoric of Trump and European fascists.
• Quote:
  • “I think he was a great leader, to be honest… I think he showed very strong leadership values.” – Focus group participant Ashley (quoted by JVL) [02:09]

3. Stunning Antisemitism

[04:38–05:35]

• The group shifts seamlessly from talking about Hitler to spouting classic antisemitic tropes about Jewish control of Hollywood and media.
• Several agree Jews are “a force for evil,” with one participant overtly supporting that sentiment.
• Quote:
  • “‘Do you think the Jewish people are a force for evil?’ Andrew says, 'Yes sir. Doesn’t bother me if it’s true.’” – JVL citing focus group [05:10]

4. Nick Fuentes and the Normalization of Extremism

[06:22–09:04]

• When asked about notorious white nationalist Nick Fuentes, several participants express admiration—describing him as “hilarious,” “based,” and “in tune with the market.”
• For many, Fuentes’s views are considered simply “interesting” or dismissed as poorly delivered, not fundamentally objectionable.
• Quote:
  • “I think it’s hilarious. I agree with a lot of his points…he said that all blacks should be in jail…he’s kind of a psycho…kind of like a positive psycho. He’s so based.” – Focus group participant George, paraphrased by JVL and Miller [07:02–07:21]
  • “I dig him. He knows the market. He’s not going to please everybody…that is a Gen Z conservative basically saying, 'I know people like me. We are the market for Nick Fuentes.’” – Atticus (quoted and analyzed by Miller) [07:55]

5. Regressive Gender Attitudes and Dating

[09:11–10:13]

• Deeply misogynistic views emerge around women and dating, including nostalgia for “traditional” submissive women and support for taking away women’s right to vote.
• One male participant: “I feel like women are very emotional and that politics is a man’s discipline. I seriously believe it. My mother actually believes this too...I’ve never really seen a woman who truly understands politics.” [09:52]

6. Prevalence and Social Acceptance of Extremism among Gen Z Republicans

[11:41–14:39]

• Miller and JVL note: This isn’t just fringe—the participants are comfortable expressing radical views, in a recorded, public context, one sign Hispanic participant even walks out.
• Miller draws parallels to previous eras when overt racism was spoken “because there wouldn’t be social consequences.” Now, open white nationalism and hate are “back in style” because the movement’s leaders won’t police it.
• Quote:
  • “Once you get that comfortable saying that kind of stuff, because you know other people around you are okay with it…we’ve come back around to that with these nationalist, Hitler-adjacent, griper [Groypers] views.” – Tim Miller [13:29]

7. Trump, J.D. Vance, and the Right's Factional Dynamics

[14:39–18:44]

• Discussion of how Trump accommodates both the “griper” wing (far-right, often bigoted) and his pro-Israel, conservative Jewish backers—allowing both to feel represented.
• J.D. Vance’s attempts to “invert” the Trump coalition are critiqued as an unsustainable straddle.
• Miller: If Vance or another Trump successor is seen as “inevitable,” most of the party will fall in line, just as with Trump.
• Quote:
  • “He’s (Trump) made space for the gripers and the anti-Semites at the table. But then he’s delivered on the pro-Israel policies for his conservative Jewish supporters.” – JVL [15:39]

8. Where Is the Energy—and the Consequences?

[18:44–20:44]

• JVL posits: The “griper” extreme wing holds all the energy and excitement; everyone else is relegated to finger-wagging and scolding, i.e., the “Mitch McConnell” lane.
• Miller: Even if Ben Shapiro is factually right, the emotional momentum with the youth is all on the side of conspiracy, exclusion, and radical populism.
• Quote:
  • “I just think it’s objectively true…the energy is on that side. That is what the younger folks want…Could it change? Who the hell knows what the future holds?” – Tim Miller [19:06–20:24]

9. The Manhattan Institute's Motivation – Cluelessness or Cautionary?

[20:44–22:09]

• Miller speculates: Was this a warning bell, a donor-pleasing project gone awry, or just blundering incompetence?
• JVL: Either way, the Institute was, strangely, willing to publicly release evidence of deep rot in the movement.
• Quote:
  • “They did the focus group and – whoa, they’re Nazis. What do we do now? Well, inertia…” – Miller [21:37]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

Hitler Discussion

• “Let’s just start with the Hitler stuff.” – JVL [01:40]
• “I think he was a great leader, to be honest...showed strong leadership values.” – Focus group participant Ashley, quoted by JVL [02:09]

Antisemitism

• “They’ve got Hollywood on lock...Don’t they own like a ton of media?” – Focus group participants, quoted by JVL [04:48]
• “Do you think the Jewish people are a force for evil? Andrew says, 'Yes sir.'” – JVL [05:10]

Nick Fuentes Admiration

• “[Fuentes] is so based. He knows his market. That’s like a firsthand testimony—Nick Fuentes is giving young Magas what they want.” – Tim Miller [07:55]
• “He has some interesting opinions, I think specifically on race. They’re just interesting opinions, Tim.” – JVL quoting Ethan [08:32]

Women and Voting

• “I just feel like women are very emotional and that politics is a man’s discipline. My mother actually believes this too.” – JVL quoting Andrew [09:52]

Social Acceptance of Extremist Views

• “Once you get that comfortable saying that kind of stuff because you know the people around you are okay with it…we've come back around to that.” – Tim Miller [13:29]

Right-Wing Coalitions

• “Trump has held his coalition together because he’s made space for the gripers and the anti-Semites at the table. But then he’s delivered on the pro-Israel policies for his conservative Jewish supporters.” – JVL [15:39]

Where the Energy Lies

• “Everybody else becomes basically Mitch McConnell. Wagging their finger, saying don't talk about that.” – JVL [19:04]

The Manhattan Institute’s Baffling Choices

• “They did the focus group and – whoa, they're Nazis. What do we do now? Well, inertia…” – Tim Miller [21:37]

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Conclusion

This episode is a frank, often shocking exploration of the state of Gen Z conservatism as revealed by a focus group that’s both a canary in the coal mine and a jarring warning siren. Miller and JVL argue that the radicalization and normalization of extremist, exclusionary views among young conservatives should no longer be hand-waved away as fringe behavior. Mainstream institutions appear unable—or unwilling—to contain or repudiate these views, and leading Republican figures continue to make room at the table for the furthest right, further feeding the cycle.

Final Words:
“Merry Christmas. Hitler’s bad. We’ll see you soon.” – Tim Miller [22:12]

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For more: Sign up for Jonathan Last’s “The Triad” on The Bulwark and subscribe for more Bulwark Takes.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

It'S Tim Miller with the Bulwark here with my buddy Jonathan Vlass. He writes a great newsletter every day. It's called the Triad. You can sign up for it@the bulwark.com and I would highly recommend you do so if you haven't already. And today's Triad was a banger. Every once in a while I feel like we need to do a video version for you non readers out there for the video people, because this is too good to miss. That headline is Behold the Focus Group from Hell. JVL looks at this focus group put out by the Manhattan Institute, which used to be kind of a normie Republican thing but now has gone full MAGA where they talk to Gen Z Republicans. And hoo boy, the Gen Z Republicans are not. All right, jvl, tell us a little bit about it.

[Jonathan Vlass]

It is wild because one, I mean we'll get to the meta version of this in a second, but one of the things I want you to think about is so if we had put out this focus group, everyone would have said, of course the anti Trump Bulwark tries to put out a focus group with these insane Republicans trying to make them look bad. The Manhattan Institute thinks this is all. Okay, let me just, let me. I mean, let's just start with the Hitler stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Oh great, why not?

[Jonathan Vlass]

The moderator at one point asks the group, what do you guys think about Hitler? Here's Ashley. I think he was a great leader, to be honest. I think what he was going for was terrible, but I think he showed very strong leadership values. One person, right? You can get one weirdo in every group. Here's Andrew. I'm in favor of a strong executive. I think we should have a stronger executive branch. I don't think we should be killing people or doing mass genocide. Obviously, notice the qualifier mass genocide. But I do think we should have a strong executive. I feel like one of the biggest problems Trump is running into right now is all these little courts going to throw up little blockages against everything he's trying to do, whether it be his tariffs or deporting people. Some very precious pro strong executive, strong leader, strong man. I support national sovereignty. And Hitler was a nationalist. He was like, we have to take Germany back for Germans. And I feel like we should do that in America. I feel like we should take America back for a native population. So I'm not an expert on Hitler by any means, but as far as nationalism concerned, I'm all that.

[Tim Miller]

I feel like it should be noted that Hitler did do some work outside of his borders as well.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Czechoslovakia for the Germans, Poland for the Germans.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Jonathan Vlass]

It was a lot of it needed some living room, some living space.

[Tim Miller]

That line is noteworthy. And I think back to Trump's Madison Square Garden speech where Miller said, America is for Americans and Americans only. And it is just as very reminiscent of his line about how Hitlerists were taking Germany back for the Germans. He's seeing a lot he likes there, I guess.

[Jonathan Vlass]

So. Here. Here's Bryce. I myself am actually Jewish ancestrally. I'm Christian by faith, but Jewish by blood. I've actually read Mein Kampf. The end conclusions that he came to, absolutely abominable. But I strangely understood where he was coming from as far as wanting to improve the national state of Germany.

[Tim Miller]

So there's some good stuff in there. I mean, abominable and terrible in two of the answers. A lot of qualifications.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Somebody who has read Mein Kampf. Have you read Mein Kampf?

[Tim Miller]

I've not read Mein Kampf. I haven't. It's sort of like there's that Succession session scene. Yeah. Tom's interviewing a wannabe host for Succession and he's like. He's like, yeah, I've read mine Kampf a few times. Tom's like, a few times you say, like, what did you get from the. From the second reading that you didn't get from the first? See, there's a little bit of that there. Well, what? Well, maybe these. This was just an outlier. A couple of these guys are just Outliers? No.

[Jonathan Vlass]

After that question, the moderator seems to be slightly shook and he says, so what do you, you all think about Jews? And this is again a group of Gen Z Republicans. Atticus says they've got Hollywood on lock. George says, don't they own like a ton of the media and like just kind of everything? Then we have Andrew who says, I would say a force for evil. I don't see why we support Israel. I think Israel is a very evil state. The genocide in Gaza, killing all these poor people. And the only reason we really support them is because they are the biggest donors. We have APAC and they're all these Jewish run organizations. The moderator says, let me clarify that, Andrew. Do you think the Jewish people are a force for evil? Andrew says, yes sir. Doesn't bother me if it's true. I should say that when you go to the Manhattan Institute's webpage, you note that they are having a big benefit honoring Ben Shapiro.

[Tim Miller]

Hmm. Maybe they put this out as like, put this out as like kind of a warning flare to the conservative movement.

[Jonathan Vlass]

That's the crazy part of this, right? So you read this thing and again, if this was published by the Bulwark, people would be outraged. Be like the Bulwark trying to make all these young Republicans seem like extremists. One of the funny things, towards the end of the focus group, they ask the group, how do you think society views people like you? And they're like, they think we're all extremists and gripers and dangerous wackadoos. And you know, one guy's like, I don't even know what a groip. I don't even know any groipers. But like throughout this thing they ask people about Nick Fuentes and the Nick.

[Tim Miller]

Fuentes answers are really notable. Actually we should just run through those because I think this is important context to your point about like, are we nut picking? Are you trying, like there's a big discourse out there in the narrative that like Nick Fuentes, like this is fake. Like Nick Fuentes doesn't have real followers. It's all bots. It's Astroturf and it's bots to make conservatives look bad. Like you hear, you hear this a lot from credible people, pundits. That is their claim. Like this isn't a real thing that we need to address or take seriously worry about. It's really the left that is anti Semite Semites and we don't have to take this seriously because it's all fake and it's Being pushed by, you know, whatever outside interests. And then, and then you have this focus group and you start asking people about Nick Fuentes. Why don't you go through a couple of their answers?

[Jonathan Vlass]

Here's George. I think it's hilarious. I agree with a lot of his points. He definitely doesn't care about how it's going to be reacted to, which I respect. But I also think it can be kind of dangerous. He goes on yada, yada, yada. I just think he's funny, honestly. And that humor. He's saying a lot of things that I kind of align with. He said that all blacks should be in jail. And Piers Morgan, I was like, my.

[Tim Miller]

God, this guy's kind of a psycho. It's kind of like a positive psycho. It's like, oh, it's like, you so crazy. He's so based. Yeah. Based, yeah.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Ali says at its core, I believe a lot of, A lot of what he says, but I think the delivery is kind of poor. Like, I feel that way about Trump, but he's America first. He's not anti helping other countries, but he's like, we can't be putting our country at risk because of it. So I just think that general mindset is what I agree with. Atticus says, I dig him. He knows the market. He's not going to please everybody. He's definitely going after more the shock value with one of his stuff as far as general beliefs or values. I sort of agree.

[Tim Miller]

Just really quick on that one. Called us out. He knows his market. Again, that is a Gen Z kid. That is a Gen Z conservative who is familiar with him, knows what his material is. And he caveats that. It's like, well, there's some things I don't agree. There's some shock value stuff that goes over the top. But like, he knows his market. That is the Gen Z conservative basically saying, I know people like me. We are the market for Nick Fuentes. He knows his marketing, knows how to appeal to us. That's like a firsthand testimony from a young maga. Yeah. Like, Nick Fuentes is giving other young magas what they're looking for as far as content is concerned.

[Jonathan Vlass]

And then Ethan says of Nick Fuentes, he has some interesting opinions, I think specifically on race. They're just interesting opinions, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

You don't hear them elsewhere. You know, the things that, like all blacks should be in jail. Like, that's not the kind of thing that, like women shouldn't vote. You know, Jews are untrustworthy. Like, you don't. You don't hear those in other places and they're kind of. It's interesting to hear them from Nick.

[Jonathan Vlass]

And then there's Andrew. And I don't even think we should say what Andrew said about Nick Fuentes because we'll get demonetized.

[Tim Miller]

But it's disgusting.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Tim Miller]

You can sign up for the triad to read what Andrew says about Nick Fuentes, but it's supportive and disgusting. We'll just leave it there.

[Jonathan Vlass]

But this same guy. So they then ask about dating. And this group is very down on dating. And the women are all like, guys are terrible and unserious. And the guys are like, yeah, women are, you know, they're so mouthy and they've got all these tattoos and stuff. And this one guy, Andrew, he says, I don't see a lot of good Christian women. I see a lot of tattoos and I don't like that. I see a lot of promiscuity with women. I don't like that either. I see a lot of feminism too. A lot of bossy women. I look at my mother, I see a very traditional, conservative women and I don't see that in other women around. God bless him. This poor guy just trying to find his own. His own version of mother to marry.

[Tim Miller]

Where is my good God fearing woman who wants to stay in the kitchen?

[Jonathan Vlass]

And when the moderator asks, do any of you think that women shouldn't be allowed to vote? This dude is like, I just feel like women are very emotional and that politics is a man's discipline. I seriously believe it. My mother actually believes this too. I know some other women who believe that. I just feel like I've never really seen a woman who truly understands politics. And this guy is just like mystified as to why he can't get laid.

[Tim Miller]

Household voting Head of household voting. Maybe for him.

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[Tim Miller]

To me, this isn't one of those things where, you know, people can disagree, you know, whatever. We can do data like, how big is this group? What is the percentage of people that have these kind of disgusting views that are Nick Fuentes or Fuentes Interested? Is it 10%? Is it 60% of the young?

[Jonathan Vlass]

2%?

[Tim Miller]

It's not 2%.

[Jonathan Vlass]

That's the thing.

[Tim Miller]

The fact that these guys, guys like Andrew feel comfortable saying it in front of people like, this is, you know, this is not so it's not the leaked text chain. The leaked text chain was bad and revealing in a way. And you know, it's different though, in this situation where it's like, you know, you're in a focus group, they're going to publish some of this. You know, the other people around are going to hear you. In fact, I guess you didn't mention one of the participants stormed out. Yeah, because yeah, she was Hispanic. There's so much anti Hispanic talk. We didn't get into the immigration and.

[Jonathan Vlass]

She was like, she identified herself as very right wing and a Baptist and she, she was like, peace out, this is bad.

[Tim Miller]

I experience this with Jubilee, right, where there was a handful of people in the room that were Christians, even, you know, or evangelicals or whatever church kids that like, you know, had pretty far right views, had come along with Trump, but like thought that everybody would agree with them on like the. Well, yeah, Trump is a little extreme in his rhetoric sometimes and he can be a little bit cruel to people and we still respect everybody's dignity. And, and like there are, there are people in there that was like, no, actually I know I've heard the one girl, there's One moment from Ijibly where she was like and I think we all like agree that there's some way that people could become citizens or some path. She said something like that. And I was like you think so? And I like to look around. I was like is anybody here for a path to citizenship? And I was like no hands, you know. So I, I do think there is a little bit of that where, where some people who are in certain bubbles of conservatives don't how widespread this is. But that guy Andrew, basically the takeaway was he's not going to suffer any consequences from this. Like he's not embarrassed about sharing it. And, and that comes from a place of like if you, once you, you get that comfortable saying that kind of stuff because you know other people around you are okay with it. Like there was time like when we were growing up like you know, particularly I have a lot of friends from the south and stuff where there's like a period of time where in certain places where I'd be certain demographics like you'd hear people say the N word like, you know what I mean? Like you wouldn't hear it like in Denver, you know what I mean? Like you wouldn't hear in other ways. And why was that? It was because like they felt in their social circles like that there weren't, there's no going to be no social consequence for it. So they could. Right. And that's where we're at now. We've come back around to that with these with like nationalists like Hitler adjacent griper views. Right where people get the Gen Z conservative kids feel comfortable saying it because they're like a bunch of my friends agree with this. A bunch of them quietly agree with it. There's some other ones that are going to be namby Pambies that try to silence me but we don't care about them anymore because the Vice President of the United States says we don't do cancellations. And, and so what? Why, why not just let it rip?

[Jonathan Vlass]

No enemies to the right. This is, I mean there was a thing where they asked people about like you know, who, what, what political figure best represents them. There's this one guy, George, he says Tucker Carlson, especially after his departure from Fox just seeing how now he's kind of more middle ground, not so brainwashed by the bosses who tell him what to say. This guy likes the, the Tucker who is independent who does like the, the martyr made Nazi historian guy and the Nick Fuentes and he views that as being the more moderate version. And I came away from this like, really again, as I have for like the last couple weeks. I don't understand how conservative, because there have been a lot of very, very loud conservative Jewish voices for Trump and I don't. Well, here's what I'm interested in. Here's my thesis, Tim, let me try.

[Tim Miller]

It out on you.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Trump has held his coalition together because he has made space for the gripers and the anti Semites at the table. But then he's delivered on the pro Israel policies for his conservative Jewish supporters. So he'll have dinner with Nick Fuentes, but then he'll be Bibi Netanyahu's. And so they both, both sides get what they want. And I don't know how J.D. vance replicates that. Vance is seeming, seems like he's trying to do the opposite, which is signaling that he wants no part of Israel in order to make the anti Semites happy, but then to make the conservative Jewish supporters happy. He also says he doesn't like Nick Fuentes.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Jonathan Vlass]

It's like the, the inverse of what Trump is doing. And I just have to, I, I mean, maybe it can work. I don't know. It's going to be interesting.

[Tim Miller]

I think it could work if there's inevitability. Me and Bill talked about this a little bit on the pod today. Right. If there's a sense that JD Is inevitable and that to be against JD is to be with the woke left, then all these people will make peace with it and figure it out. Right. Is what I think. And there'll be certain exceptions.

[Jonathan Vlass]

The gripers. Sure. Because. So I think the gripers will say, yeah, he has to say that he doesn't want us, but he's cutting off Israel and that's what we really, we're the ones getting what we want. Yeah, but if you are, if you are the, the type, if you are, especially in the donor class.

[Tim Miller]

Right. If you're like a Paul Singer, remember that guy debated msnbc, that one last year?

[Jonathan Vlass]

Who was Paul Singer gonna be okay with that?

[Tim Miller]

It was a Nikki Haley donor. Yeah, I don't, I, you know, I don't know. They all, they all rationalized it last year though. Like all those guys, I mean, they all rationalized it last year based on saying that the other side is worse. I, I don't know. I mean, he's, he's walking a tightrope though, JD Vance on this and I mean it's, it's, it's crazy. Like he was, he was at Turning Point this weekend saying that like we shouldn't cancel people or deplatform people. And Charlie wouldn't have wanted us to, but like, that's opposite. Actually. Charlie did deplatform or not deplatform, but did ban Nick Fuentes from, from, from.

[Jonathan Vlass]

The event and forced people who, anybody who fraternized with Fuentes, Charlie Kirk went after them for.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Cut him out. Yeah. And so like now JD is like, has gone even past that. He's at the. Doing this speech saying, like, oh, well, you know, you can have people out here doing anti Semitic conspiracy theories and nativist stuff and spreading, you know, like rumors about how Israel and France must have killed Charlie Kirk. And like, that's fine. That's just, it's just all. It's all just a free debate. It's free speech where everybody should be able to have a. Yeah. And he came firmly down on that side as opposed on the side of people that were criticizing it. So, I mean, I think we know where JD Is.

[Jonathan Vlass]

I want to be careful. I frame this. A lot of people, I sort of, when they talk about this, they. They frame it as a moral question about like, well, do we have to root for one side over another? And my response to this is, you should all be liberated because no matter what you care about or root for, you have no impact on this.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Jonathan Vlass]

This is a, this is a thing which will play out irrespective of how you feel about it. So just as an analytical matter, who do you think wins? I kind of think it's the groipers. Like, that's where the energy is. That's where the excitement is. That's the transgressive stuff. That's the conspiracy stuff. Everybody else becomes Basically Mitch McConnell.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Wagging their finger saying, don't talk about that.

[Tim Miller]

And just look at these Gen Z kids in the focus groups. I just think it's objectively true. I don't like that they're winning now. Could things change? Could something happen that would reverse the trend? Sure. I don't know. But to me, even listening to the speeches at tpusa, it's like Ben Shapiro is right on the facts. Right. It's like these guys are conspiracy mongering. They're spreading things that are untrue. But you could just tell the emotional connection with the room was on the side of the Tuckers and stuff. It's like we should be able to say whatever we want and America's for Americans and Americans only. We should care about America first. And the fact that J.D. didn't like J.D. sided with Tucker he tried to make it seem like he wasn't siding with anybody because he's like, all, all sides matter. But, like, Ben Shapiro's whole point was that, no, like, actually, there's right and wrong and there's truth and false and we should be able to say what's true. And JD Was like, no, we don't have to say that. And so to me, I do think the energy is on that side. That is what the younger folks want. Could it change? Like, sure. You know what I mean? Like, if J.D. vance is nominated in 2028 and gets slaughtered, you know, because he's so unappealing, maybe is there a reverse effect? You know, who the hell knows what the future holds? Let's put it this way. The fact that Erica Kirk had to go and share a stage at their own event with people that are out there saying that, like, making up, like, wild fantasies about her husband's assassination shows that they've already conceded to them. Yeah, right. She can't say no. Right. Like, who. Who is. If she and JD Vance are going to say no, who's going to say no?

[Jonathan Vlass]

Last question for you, Tim. Do you think the Manhattan Institute looks at this thing as a, like, hey, just presenting interesting information, or do you think this is a, like, trying to subtly ring an alarm bell?

[Tim Miller]

I have no idea. In these situations, I almost always, like, fall back on. Incompetence is a better explanation for things than malice. I mean, sometimes there's malice, but there's just a ton of incompetence. And so I want to see proof of malice before I believe it. They arrange this focus group as part of, like, the donors wanted them to, you know, and the Manhattan Institute is, is like a crypt, you know, and it's a, you know, like, it's not as if at the Manhattan Institute, you know, fucking rubber chicken speech dinners, there's, like, a lot of young people and a lot of excitement.

[Jonathan Vlass]

Chris Rufo there, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

So you should probably, you can probably imag owners to this being like, we got to engage the young conservatives. And then somebody in there's like, here's a project idea. Why don't we have a conversation with focus group. Yeah. And see what they care about and then we'll reply. And then they did the focus group, and it's like, whoa, they're Nazis. And it's like, okay, what do we do now? And they're like, well, inertia. I. I don't. That's my best explanation, but I'm open to other explanations because it's like baffling that they. That they would think this was something that would advance their mission.

[Jonathan Vlass]

It's wild. Absolutely wild.

[Tim Miller]

Jonathan last, thank you very much. It's a great newsletter. The Triad people should go sign up for it. Already subscribed to the bulwark@the bulk.com subscribe to this feed. You can get our YouTube Bonus Content. Just if you're just a YouTube person, but become a YouTube Bulwark Member on YouTube. Appreciate you all very much. Merry Christmas. Hitler's bad. We'll see you soon.