How a Bold Strategy On Trump Might Actually Work

Summary

Bulwark Takes: How a Bold Strategy On Trump Might Actually Work
Release Date: April 20, 2025
Host: The Bulwark Team (Tim Miller, Sam Stein)

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Introduction

In the April 20, 2025 episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts Tim Miller and Sam Stein delve into a pressing political strategy aimed at countering former President Donald Trump's aggressive immigration policies. The discussion centers around how Democratic figures like Senator Chris Van Hollen and Congressman Jason Crow are addressing the contentious issue of deporting immigrants to El Salvador, and how this approach might effectively undermine Trump's political maneuvers.

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The Political Context

Tim Miller opens the conversation by highlighting a recurring question from the Sunday shows: the political implications of deporting immigrants to El Salvador without due process. This issue has become a focal point for showcasing the contrasting strategies between Democrats and Trump’s administration.

Tim Miller [01:01]:
"Some of [the politicians] were working, and there was one particular question that kept coming up on the Sunday shows that Sam and I wanted to talk about."

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Senator Chris Van Hollen’s Stance

Senator Chris Van Hollen emerges as a strong advocate for upholding constitutional rights amidst the deportation controversy. He emphasizes the importance of due process and the broader implications of denying these rights.

Chris Van Hollen [02:44]:
"I don't think it's ever wrong to stand up for the Constitution. If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights for everybody. ... Anybody who can't stand up for the Constitution and the right of due process doesn't deserve to lead."

Sam Stein lauds Van Hollen’s approach, noting it as a clear moral stand that transcends partisan debates.

Sam Stein [03:17]:
"Van Hollen's just basically like, this is not an issue where you should be debating tactics. This is an issue of morality. This is an issue of justice."

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Congressman Jason Crow’s Approach

Jason Crow takes a more straightforward stance, advocating for doing what is morally right without overcomplicating the political narrative. His emphasis is on defending innocent individuals and upholding democratic values.

Jason Crow [08:30]:
"You gotta get scared that people who are not criminals are getting, like, lassoed up and deported and sent to, like, El Salvador prisons. This is kind of crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific."

Crow's approach aligns with the idea that moral conviction should guide political strategy, rather than merely calculating political gain.

Jason Crow [10:02]:
"Do the right thing. Let's defend the innocent. Let's try to get this man back to his family."

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Public Opinion and Polling Data

Tim Miller cites poll data to underscore the public's stance on the issue. A significant majority of Americans oppose deporting immigrants without criminal convictions and without allowing them to challenge the deportation in court.

Tim Miller [06:06]:
"The question was, how do you feel about deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to El Salvador to be imprisoned, without letting them challenge the deportation in court? ... 61% oppose, 46% strongly opposed."

This data suggests that Democrats have ample public support to frame the issue as a violation of constitutional rights and due process, thereby gaining political traction.

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Strategic Insights: Reframing the Debate

The hosts discuss how Democrats are shifting the narrative from policy minutiae to fundamental constitutional principles. By emphasizing due process and the rule of law, Democrats can position themselves as defenders of American values, contrasting sharply with Trump's more aggressive stance.

Sam Stein points out that authenticity is key to this strategy. He argues that Democrats need to present their positions as genuine convictions rather than calculated political maneuvers.

Sam Stein [04:49]:
"If you want to be authentic, just go with your guttural reaction to these things and let the chips fall where they may."

This strategic pivot not only appeals to the public’s sense of justice but also undermines Trump’s attempts to make immigration a divisive and politicized issue.

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Conclusions: The Potential Impact

Tim Miller and Sam Stein conclude that by focusing on constitutional integrity and moral responsibility, Democrats can effectively counter Trump’s immigration policies. This approach has the potential to resonate deeply with voters who are concerned about civil liberties and the humane treatment of immigrants.

Tim Miller [12:13]:
"I feel very passionately that Democrats can actually make something materially good of this, not just from a moral standpoint, but from a political one."

By maintaining a principled stance, Democrats can differentiate themselves from Republicans who may be perceived as prioritizing political advantage over ethical considerations.

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Notable Quotes

• Chris Van Hollen [02:44]:
  "If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights for everybody."

• Sam Stein [03:17]:
  "This is an issue of morality. This is an issue of justice."

• Jason Crow [08:30]:
  "This is kind of crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific."

• Jason Crow [10:02]:
  "Do the right thing. Let's defend the innocent."

• Sam Stein [04:49]:
  "If you want to be authentic, just go with your guttural reaction to these things and let the chips fall where they may."

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Final Thoughts

The episode underscores a critical moment in Democratic strategy, where embracing foundational principles could not only challenge Trump’s policies but also reinvigorate the party’s moral authority. By prioritizing due process and constitutional rights, Democrats may find a unifying issue that strengthens their political standing and addresses voters' concerns about justice and fairness in immigration.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments from the transcript were excluded to focus on the substantive discussion between Tim Miller and Sam Stein.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Tim Miller]

See terms and conditions 18+ hey, guys. I'm Tim Miller from the Bulwark, here with managing editor Sam Stein. Happy Easter. The Sunday shows didn't stop for Easter. They didn't take a day off. Shocked. Yeah. So the politicians were working, some of them at least. And there was one particular question that kept coming up on the Sunday shows that Sam and I wanted to talk about. I'm actually writing a newsletter about it tomorrow. So for those of you who are interested in reading, you go to the bulwark.com, sign up for our awesome newsletter.

[Sam Stein]

Sam and Peter, do people still read?

[Tim Miller]

Are you doing a newsletter tomorrow, too?

[Sam Stein]

I am. I have morning shots tomorrow.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, both of us are using our fingers tomorrow. So it's scripted. Anyway, both Sam and I were struck by the fact that multiple politicians, Chris Van Hollen, senator from Maryland who had gone to El Salvador, and Jason Crow, who I interviewed maybe last week or two weeks ago for the Bulwark Podcast, a congressman from Colorado were asked about whether it's good politics or bad politics to talk about. The people have been disappeared to El Salvador. I got a lot of thoughts on this, Sam. Do you have any. Do you have any big picture thoughts before we get to the video?

[Sam Stein]

Well, first of all, it's great to be back. It's been about a week since I've done one of these things. I hope I'm not rusty. Hope I'm not rusty. My big picture thought is that this is so classically Democratic in terms of the party, like debating whether or not we should engage on an issue. They may be. It's like you're. You're a former Republican. Are you still. You still identify as Republican, right?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know. No, you don't.

[Tim Miller]

I left. I wrote a big article about it.

[Sam Stein]

I wonder if. But you have intellectual roots there.

[Tim Miller]

I do.

[Sam Stein]

I don't think. Do Republicans have this type of introspective that they go through over these things, or am I missing something?

[Tim Miller]

No. I mean, basically, no.

[Sam Stein]

So much hand washing. Oh, should we do this is just proper. Is this the most perfect issue yet? Can we engage? It's like so, so stupid. Anyways, we can get into it.

[Tim Miller]

It was all kicked off, or it wasn't all kicked off. This has been a. This has been an ongoing debate, but Gavin Newsom kind of ends up being the lightning rod here.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Earlier last week, he says that this issue of Senegal Del Salvador is a distraction. I used the word distraction several times.

[Sam Stein]

Repeatedly says distraction.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. This is the distraction of the day.

[Sam Stein]

The art of distraction.

[Tim Miller]

Don't get distracted by distractions. And talking about how, you know, Democrats should be focused on tariffs and the economy, et cetera, let's go to a couple of Democrats responding to that question. First is Senator Van Hollen.

[Chris Van Hollen]

I don't think it's ever wrong to stand up for the Constitution. And this is not about one man. If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights for everybody. I think Americans are tired of elected officials or politicians who are all finger to the wind, what's blowing this way, what's blowing that way. And anybody who can't stand up for the Constitution and the right of due process doesn't deserve to lead.

[Tim Miller]

A pretty strident view from Van Hollen there. I mean, a kind of a fast brushback pitch on Gavin, really.

[Sam Stein]

Well, two things that stuck out. First of all, I applaud Van Hollen for doing what he did. And I know, well, but this is where Democratic ethos comes in, which is like, oh, well, did he. Is he aligning himself too closely with this person who the American public may actually believe is Ms. 13. Like, Van Holland's just basically like, this is not an issue where you should be debating, you know, tactics. This is an issue of morality. This is an issue. Not of immigration. It's an issue of justice. And those things actually do matter in all this sort of hand wringing by, well, is this the right issue? You know, Trump's down on tariffs. We shouldn't we focus there? It's like, at some point, you don't choose the issues, the issues choose you. And this is the issue that's been presented. Now, the second thing that I think is getting completely ignored here, which is sort of a meta point, which is the Democratic Party has had this big debate over what is authenticity, right? It's like, we need to be authentic. The people need to understand that we are not just calculated, that we are not just soundbite driven, that we have authentic beliefs and that we fervently and passionately stand by them. And the minute that this issue comes up, Gavin Newsom goes into his inauthentic self. Because obviously, I think it's fair to say Gavin Newsom thinks what's happening is wrong. He said it in the interview. Yes, but he can't be authentic about it because he's overthinking the politics of it. And in the end, if you want to be authentic, just go with your guttural reaction to these things and let the chips fall where they may.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. And I liked that Van Hollen in particular kind of makes this point, which is, look, the Republicans are trying to make this a good political issue for them by, like, making this about Kilmar Abreco Garcia's tattoos and, like, what happened to him. And, like, that's just the only play they have. I mean, Van Holland's point is, like, I'm not. This, this is not. We're not judging this man. Like, like, like, this is not a. Is this a good man? Is this a bad man? This is, this is. As a representative, I'm defending the rule of law. I'm fighting for this.

[Chris Van Hollen]

If you have evidence, take it to the court. That's where we litigate these things. And otherwise just shut up on social media.

[Tim Miller]

I thought that was good.

[Sam Stein]

The other thing, well, on cnn, he was asked that. To your point, on CNN with Dana Bash, Van Hollen was asked, did you ask Kamara Abrego Garcia if he was actually a member of Ms. 13?

[Tim Miller]

Can you say with absolute certainty that.

[Sam Stein]

He is not, nor has he ever.

[Tim Miller]

Been a member of the Ms. 13 gang?

[Sam Stein]

And did you ask him point blank?

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, Dana, what Donald Trump is trying to do here is change the subject. The subject at hand is that he and his administration are defying a court order to give people to give Abrego Garcia his due process rights. They are trying to litigate on social media what they should be doing in the courts.

[Sam Stein]

I thought to myself as like, what a wasted question that would be. Like, what's he, what's Garcia, Alberto Garcia going to say? Yes, you got me, Senator? I am, but secondarily, and this is how Van Hollen sort of answered it, which is. That's kind of a secondary issue. Yes, of course it matters. But in this case, we're talking, we're talking about something very simple and narrow. Was he illegally sent there without adjudication in due process? And whether or not he actually is member of Ms. 13 matters. Once you get to the due process phase, that is a decision, a definition that the court has to adjudicate, not the Sunday shows, not Chris Van Hollen and not Donald Trump. You can make the arguments. So anyways, that I thought was an interesting point too, in his interviews.

[Tim Miller]

I want to get to. To Jason Crow because he tries to. Tea takes us out of politics a little bit. But just like, if we're. Even if we're going to do rank politics on this, even if you're gonna do poll watching. I did think this was interesting. There's this poll, this guy that I follow, like Shia Jane over at Split Tickets. Very good. Was just, was analyzing it. And again, how you phrase these questions matter. But let's just look at this. The question was, you know, how do you feel about deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to El Salvador to be imprisoned, without letting them challenge the deportation in court? So, like, that technically is what happened to. Yeah, no, that happened, Garcia. That is what happened. Right? So 26 people. Percent of Americans support that, 61% oppose, 46% strongly opposed. So you assume that was 46% is basically the Kamala Harris vote. Right. Then you have another 15% that somewhat oppose. And even of the Trump vote, like, only half of them actually support this. So even if you're just looking at the politics of this, like, you don't.

[Sam Stein]

Need, you don't even need the poll. You don't need the poll. You could see, because Joe Rogan, right, is out there being like this doesn't feel right.

[Jason Crow]

You gotta get scared that people who are not criminals are getting, like, lassoed up and deported and sent to, like, El Salvador prisons. This is kind of crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific. And that's, again, that's bad for the cause. Like, the cause is let's get the gang members out. Everybody agrees. But what's not, innocent gay hairdressers get lumped up with the gangs. And then like, how long before that guy can get out? Can we, can we figure out how to get him out? Does every. Is there any plan in place to alert the authorities that they've made a horrible mistake?

[Sam Stein]

And like, that guy's like, you know, he's all gut, right? Like, he's not, he's not thinking through the constitutionality of it. He's going with the gut. And finally, let me just make this point because I, I don't, again, I don't think this point has been articulated all that Much. But the big criticism of Joe Biden on the issue of immigration was that he simply ceded the turf to Donald Trump and let Donald Trump define the debate. And he should have moved quicker with his preferred platform and tried to, you know, at least, you know, mold public opinion around what he wanted it to be. And he didn't try. And he just basically. And immigration became an absolute horrible issue for him. And obviously some of that was due to the fact that he just let the border go to. Right now, Democrats are not turning around and saying, you know what, or at least a portion of democracy. Cede this debate to Donald Trump right now. Don't engage this debate. Just go talk about tariffs. And it's like you're repeating the same exact misstep that you just ascribed to Joe Biden. At some point, you have to engage these debates, if only to make a bad issue less bad for you. But I don't even think that's the case here, because I think ultimately this could be actually a winning issue for Democrats if you turn it into an issue about constitutionality, due process, protecting rights, which is what this is at this point.

[Tim Miller]

You can tell Sam's been on vacation, he's hot. He has a lot of material. And like, he is coming simmering. He's been simmering at the beach.

[Sam Stein]

I'm so upset. I'm like, me too.

[Tim Miller]

You know, who agrees with you? Let's. Because credit where due. Let's watch Jason Crowe.

[Kamala Harris]

You know what? I think the right thing politically to do is. Is actually just do the right thing, right? If we do the right thing and we defend people, if we defend the innocent, if we defend our democracy, the politics tend to take care of themselves. You know, I learned when I first ran for office that we can spend all this time thinking about what is the right political thing to do. And frankly, I think that's one of the reasons why the Democrats have lost elections in the past is because we're always thinking about what are the politics of it, right? So let's just do the right thing. Let's defend the innocent. Let's try to get this man back to his family. Let's also enforce our immigration laws. Let's make sure we have a secure border, let's get criminals off our streets. You know, we have the ability to do all of those things.

[Tim Miller]

Jason makes the point that you are making. Well, he's not even really making the political point. He is making it in this sense, which is you do the right thing, you advocate for what you think is right, and the Politics follow where they may and obviously that's simplistic. There are probably times where there's something that you think is the right thing that is bad politics. But like as a general North Star, rather than just like getting down in your navel and obsessing over this, like speak from your gut, talk about what you think is right. And Jason Crow is a pretty moderate rep from Colorado. It's my district where I grew up, so I know the disagree well. He's, it's from the suburbs. He's a moderate Colorado suburbs Democrat. But there are a lot of immigrants in that district. There's a lot of Hispanics in district. He knows, he knows the issue. You know, he's not a soft on border guy. He's not like a Julian Castro. Everybody come through. It's just like, look, we have to have rules, we have a border, but also like we can't throw people in a fucking gulag, you know, like, we gotta fight. If we do that, we gotta fight against the administration that's doing it. It's pretty simple. And I think Jason has, it's simple, it's straightforward.

[Sam Stein]

You have at least the, you know, your moral convictions can be affirmed through your political strategy. Like again. And that I think actually is another thing is like this is an issue where Trump, while they want to claim that it's a great issue for them, it's very evident that Trump's on the defensive, right? Am I, am I crazy here? He's on the defensive, right? They're defending their actions now. They have to be disingenuous and throw up some made up tattoos and things like that. And you know, they bring, you know, horrible horror stories that are unrelated to Abrego Garcia and they try again in the offense, but that's from a defensive.

[Tim Miller]

Posture, it's even more defensive. And they've been stopped or stalled at least. I mean like the plan was to keep sending planes to El Salvador, right? Like the plan was to continue doing this. And the pushback has not only gotten at least one person so far of the 200 some odd not out, out, out permanently, but out like proof of life out, which is, which is something. And, and has gotten this thing to the Supreme Court twice. It has got so like they, they're not only on the defensive rhetorically, but like they've been stalled.

[Sam Stein]

When, when's the last time you can recall where someone on, where a party that was on the offensive on an issue was like, you know what, let's not talk about it. Let's not talk about it. Just, I feel, I feel very passionately that Democrats can actually make something materially good of this, not just from a moral standpoint, but from a political one. But they just can't stop stepping on their own dicks. I'm sorry about it. It's just crazy.

[Tim Miller]

It is crazy. I'm happy you did it because I just, I literally, I thought I was going to carry this video because I literally just did the rant you did on, on a Google Doc and people can read it tomorrow. So I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave people with that little teaser. Yeah. And you've gotten it from Sam. Everybody else, subscribe to feed. Sam is back. He's going to be here all week. I'm going to be here all week.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I'll be here all week. I'm not here Friday, but I'm be here most of the week.

[Tim Miller]

Where are you going on Friday?

[Sam Stein]

I got. Don't. I want to talk about it.

[Tim Miller]

All right. All right. One more. That's your last vacation. All right. Fourth of July. Okay. Everybody else will see you. We'll see you soon.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Tim Miller]

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