How Do We Fight Fascism? Flee or Fight?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "How Do We Fight Fascism? Flee or Fight?"

Episode Information:

• Title: How Do We Fight Fascism? Flee or Fight?
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Release Date: May 15, 2025

In this compelling episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts JVL and Sarah Longwell delve into the pressing question of how to combat the rising tide of fascism in contemporary America. Drawing inspiration from a recent New York Times video featuring three former Yale professors, the discussion navigates the complex terrain of resistance versus retreat in the face of authoritarian threats.

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1. Introduction to the Debate

The episode opens with JVL introducing the topic, referencing a New York Times video where three esteemed Yale professors—Marcy Shore, Timothy Snyder, and Jason Stanley—announce their departure to the University of Toronto due to burgeoning fascist sentiments in the United States.

[00:00] JVL: "Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Today in the New York Times we had a video from three former professors of Yale explaining why they are leaving the country and heading up to the University of Toronto because of all of the incipient fascism."

Sarah responds by sharing her personal connection to the video, revealing that her image was used to amplify the message of impending danger.

[00:28] Sarah Longwell: "Well, it's... they are saying they are leaving because of the fascism. ... they show a bunch of clips of people sort of warning how bad it is. And one of them is my, you know, close-up face."

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2. Personal Impact and Media Representation

Sarah discusses her unexpected appearance in the video and criticizes how her image was utilized to instill fear about speaking out against authoritarian figures.

[00:59] Sarah Longwell: "It's like me on Nicole Wallace to make people afraid of speaking out against him."

JVL humorously recalls Sarah's appearance in a Mark Carney advertisement, highlighting the juxtaposition of her public persona.

[01:02] JVL: "It's like when you showed up in the Mark Carney ad."

Sarah further elaborates on the ad's message, emphasizing the contrast between American and Canadian approaches to political turmoil.

[01:07] Sarah Longwell: "The now Canadian prime minister used in his like closing ad... It cuts to a clip of me yelling at Scott Jennings on CNN."

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3. Analyzing the Professors' Departure

The conversation shifts to unpacking JVL's "triad," a framework Sarah previously introduced, which they describe as a "bleak bummer" challenging their worldviews.

[01:58] Sarah Longwell: "... we have to spend all day tomorrow fighting, I just, I wonder what you think about this in light of your idea that sort of people are unsalvageable and American voters are unsalvageable."

JVL clarifies that his initial remarks were more introspective than intended.

[01:59] JVL: "It was really me talking with myself."

Sarah seeks JVL's perspective on whether America is heading towards a 1930s-like fascist landscape, questioning the professors' rationale for fleeing.

[02:08] Sarah Longwell: "I don't think people should be leaving or fleeing the country. ... I think we have to stay here and fight."

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4. Historical Parallels and Contemporary Concerns

JVL draws parallels between the current moment and the pre-fascist era of the early 1930s, emphasizing the inability to recognize the descent until it's too late.

[03:31] JVL: "Look in 1931 people didn't realize it was 1931... It's like... until the day when the tanks are actually in the streets."

Sarah concurs, highlighting the subtlety with which authoritarianism can insidiously take root.

[04:55] Sarah Longwell: "You sort of don't know that's where you are until it's too late."

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5. The Role of Intellectuals and Privilege in Resistance

JVL references a piece by Bed Witness on Lawfare that counters the professors' departure as defeatist, advocating instead for active resistance.

[05:01] JVL: "Our friend Bed Witness wrote a really stirring piece at Lawfare today pushing back against this as defeatism."

Sarah emphasizes the importance of not succumbing to defeatism, stressing that those with privilege have a responsibility to utilize their platforms to fight back.

[08:05] Sarah Longwell: "... we have the privilege of platform, we have the privilege of American citizenship... we should use it."

JVL further explains that while the professors' actions are concerning, their departure alone isn't catastrophic unless it becomes a widespread trend.

[10:21] JVL: "... it's not terrible to have like Tim Snyder's a real grownup... But it would be bad if everybody... left."

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6. Defeatism versus Active Resistance

The hosts explore the fine line between raising alarms and fostering a sense of hopelessness. Sarah fears that advocating for fleeing might inadvertently encourage others to give up without resistance.

[12:26] Sarah Longwell: "... I'm worried that it creates a level of defeatism that gives people the sense that they, too, need to opt out of fighting back."

JVL counters by distinguishing between respectful disagreement and widespread capitulation, emphasizing the importance of active participation in resistance.

[15:19] JVL: "... I worry much more about the people who simply refuse to stand up at all more than I do about the people who've been standing up."

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7. Historical Lessons and Future Strategies

Drawing from historical examples, JVL and Sarah reflect on how authoritarian regimes often co-opt or silence dissenting voices, underscoring the necessity of vigilance and proactive resistance.

[16:25] JVL: "This is how authoritarianism works. ... we'll find out when the time comes like that."

Sarah reinforces the need to empower individuals to speak out and engage in democratic processes to prevent the erosion of freedoms.

[17:28] JVL: "Let everybody try in the way that we think is best... we can do the most effectively."

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8. Conclusion: Empowerment and Agency

In wrapping up the discussion, JVL encourages listeners to subscribe and engage with the content, emphasizing the importance of staying informed and active in the fight against authoritarianism.

[18:39] JVL: "Guys, hit subscribe. Hit like, follow us... That's what we give you right here at the Bulwark. Good luck, America."

Sarah closes with a firm stance against defeatism, advocating for collective agency and resistance.

[18:51] Sarah Longwell: "Bye."

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Key Takeaways:

• The departure of prominent academics due to fears of rising fascism is a cause for concern and debate.
• While some argue for fleeing as a form of resistance, others advocate for staying and actively fighting to preserve democratic values.
• Privileged individuals and those with platforms bear a greater responsibility to lead in the resistance against authoritarianism.
• Historical parallels serve as cautionary tales, highlighting the subtle and often unrecognized descent into fascism.
• Empowerment, active participation, and maintaining a sense of agency are crucial in combating the erosion of democratic institutions.

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a nuanced examination of the strategies for resisting authoritarianism, balancing the urgency of the threat with practical considerations of how individuals can effectively contribute to safeguarding democracy.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Today in the New York Times we had a video from three former professors of Yale explaining why they are leaving the country and heading up to the University of Toronto because of all of the incipient fascism. The professors are Marcy Shore, Timothy Snyder, Jason Stanley. I imagine you have some thoughts about this, my friend.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, it's. Everybody keeps sending it to me because it turns out I'm in it. I'm in this New York Times piece and it's like they are saying they are leaving because of the fascism. They're like, hey, we're historians. We know what it was like back in the early, you know, 30s. And you know, people didn't see it coming, but we see this coming and we got to get out of here. But then they show a bunch of clips of people sort of warning how bad it is. And one of them is my, you know, close up face. I. It's like me on Nicole Wallace to make people afraid of speaking out against him.

[JVL]

It's like when you showed up in the Mark Carney ad.

[Sarah Longwell]

I did show up in the Mark Carney ad.

[JVL]

It was the queen of B roll, the Canadian.

[Sarah Longwell]

I wish we had done this with the Canadian. The now Canadian prime minister used in his like closing ad. He's. His closing ad is about how they didn't want to be like America then. They didn't want us to be weak and divided. And it cuts to a clip of me yelling at Scott Jennings on cnn. And I was like, hey, I'm glad I can be there for you, bud. But it is funny when people send me these things. I'm like, I don't care about this ad from the Canadian guy. And then I'm like, oh, I'm in it. Cool. But anyway, but watching the thing from the professors was interesting. And actually I really do wonder what you think about it in light of the triad that you wrote today, which was a. A bleak bummer of a triad directed squarely at my worldview and which, I mean, we're gonna unpack.

[JVL]

This was it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, yeah. That whole thing was Sarah Bain.

[JVL]

I don't. You. It wasn't intended that way. It was really me talking with myself.

[Sarah Longwell]

Our listeners do not know how sarcastic you're being right now. Okay? They can't tell. I can see it in your eyes. I know we're going to do this tomorrow on the secret pod. So if you guys want to hear a knockdown drag out between me and JVL first subscribe to the Borg, then read his Triad, then come listen to us on the secret pod on Friday tomorrow. But for today, since we're going to have to spend all day tomorrow fighting, I just, I wonder what you think about this in light of your idea that sort of people are unsalvageable and American voters are unsalvageable. Do you think that we are, that it's 1931 in America right now and that we are headed in the direction that makes one feel like as an academic, you need to go practice your ply, your trade elsewhere? Because I'll just say as a short matter, I don't, I both don't think people should be leaving or fleeing the country. I also don't, I certainly don't want it to be as a result of something I said. And they were sort of using me as a stand in for why people had to get the heck out of Dodge. And I don't love that because I think we have to stay here and fight is just the shortest version of what I think is important. But you might have a different take on it.

[JVL]

I don't know. I mean, that's the only. Look in 1931 people didn't realize it was 1931.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure, of course.

[JVL]

Right. And I think that in nearly every part of American history leading up to the last few years, with some exceptions following the conclusion of the Civil War, we could definitively say that it was not 1931. What is unique about the moment right now is that you can't say that I don't think, you know, I, I, you look at it and say, I don't know, I don't know. Things don't, I mean, you know, there are some encouraging signs. The courts have held right there. There are so far, there are some not encouraging signs. Kilmar, Abrego, Garcia is still in a foreign gulag because the courts have pushed back, but the government hasn't complied yet. There we won't know for this is the problem, this is the problem of the 1930s and this is the problem with authoritarian attempts. Is it always, you can always construct a reason for why it's not as bad as it looks until the day when the tanks are actually in the streets.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I was going to say you sort of don't know that's where you are until it's too late.

[JVL]

Yeah. And I think that's, that is I, I think what these three professors were saying. It's what I sort of think, candidly, that it could be it could be. And you know, like the history of these things, the, the nomenclature, the intellectuals, they are the first ones to, to get put up against the wall. It's not crazy to me. Like, our friend Bed Witness wrote a really stirring piece at Lawfare today pushing back against this as defeatism. And he makes a lot of great points and I love that. And I love you like in your, like, fight, fight, fight. I love where your guys hearts are. That said, I do not have the same level of certainty that you guys do that we aren't in that neighborhood. Does that make sense?

[Sarah Longwell]

It does. Tell me a little bit more about Wittes's piece because I didn't read it. What are some of the top line points that he makes about staying so. Because that's my. I mean, me and Ben are also good friends. It doesn't surprise me that. And based on who Ben is, it doesn't surprise me that he has sort of a fight mentality. And I don't know exactly what points he was making are, but I suspect certainly if I wrote a piece, which chances of that are slim, but it would be about even in 1931, who was fighting, who was fighting as you watched people slowly capitulate. And I don't know enough about everything that was happening at the politics of the time, but I do know that the way that you avoid something like that happening again is by fighting it, right? By pushing back, by making sure that Trump's not successful.

[JVL]

So this, this is what Ben said. And what Ben says is that the moment we're in is absolutely dangerous, but that the dangers are different for different people and that the people are. The most danger right now are people who are like driving to work in Georgia and you know, have been in the country since they were four and went to college and have a job, but are going to get pulled over and arrested. Like, that person is in a very great deal of danger. But people who are American citizens who have means and who have platforms which they can use, those people are not yet at tremendous risk right there. At some risk. It's not nothing like, you know, the president did issue EOs targeting Krebs and Miles Taylor. But that the privilege that people like Ben is what he says, he says people like me, the privilege that we've been afforded really requires us to stay and fight.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So I agree with that. I think I've said, literally, I think you've said something very similar verbatim, that we have the privilege of platform, we have the privilege of American citizenship, we have the privilege of free speech. We have the privilege of being able to hire attorneys. And so I just. This is what makes me angry. What they're doing is not the same as what the lawyers are doing exactly. Because they're just people trying to protect their money and their access to this administration. And they are trading democracy to do it. The thing about professors and academics getting out of Dodge sooner rather than later because they fear that we are headed down the path of Germany, 1932, 1933. I just think, I think it is a. I think that oftentimes we are not alarmed enough in this moment. So I don't want to accuse them of alarmism. I do think, though that, like, they specifically were far from being threatened, like, not in a real way. And that I think that the signal that it sends to leave the country is a similar one. It's different, but it's similar to the law firms or the universities or the media companies, the other people who've caved, which is that to say like, is basically to say like, we're already too far gone, right? Like, what's the point of standing up? It's too, it's too, it's too, you know, we just need to put our heads down. And I just think that's exactly the wrong thing to do in this moment. Like, exactly the opposite. And so since I'm in the, since I'm in the little New York Times thing, I would like, just like to register. And it's me saying, like, this is meant to chill, this is meant to menace and all that is true. It is our choice, though, whether or not we give into that. We have agency here and we should use it.

[JVL]

Let me just. As a. So I want to grant, as a, as a, as an ideological matter, what you're saying is right, but as a prudential matter, that would be, this would be true if everybody was leaving. But to have a couple high profile people leave and try to raise the alarm on the way out the door and presumably continue to write from abroad and to stand up for democracy and to attack the regime, that could be useful in a way, couldn't it? Yeah, it would be bad if everybody did it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

But it's not, it's not terrible to have like, like Tim Snyder's a real grownup, you know, and to him going and doing this like that says something. And I assume he's not just going to sit around and start writing about the founding like a bunch of conservative intellectuals have done, who decided that 2017 was a good time to really Just disengage from all the hurly burly of modern stuff and tell, you know, it's time to build. We're going to really look back and the stuff that endures and not get, not get distracted with all the comings and goings, none of us will even remember two decades from now. I can see a use in that, actually. Is that crazy?

[Sarah Longwell]

You can see a use in what they're doing? Yeah, it's not crazy. And even as you say it, this is one of those areas where I think my gut reaction just because I'm so like, that is not what I would do. But I think you're right and I'd have to think about it more to know how certain I feel about this. But I think you could be right, that perhaps what they are doing is simply trying to say, like, everybody's being too complacent about what's happening. Which is a sentiment I agree with. I just hate for people to, for their takeaway to be so I need to get myself out of Dodge as opposed to raise the alarm, I guess, inside the country. And also do. But I guess you're right. The Internet's different now. It's not like they're walking. It's. They can still, they can still raise alarms from a safer place.

[JVL]

I guess it's happened all through history, right? Dissidents will leave a country because it's not safe, but they don't disappear. Like they keep, they keep writing, attacking the regime from abroad. And again, I think it matters that these three. I don't know Professor Shore or Stanley at all. I know Timothy. I mean, I don't know them personally, any of them at all, but I know Timothy Snyder's work fairly well. And it, it is, I think it's a big deal that somebody of his stature would say, this is bad enough that I am going someplace else. And you guys should all be concerned about this. You should be. If you're seeing what I'm saying, that should make an impression on you. I think that is useful for, I don't know, the resistance, for the people who still care about democracy. And it would be, it would be bad if everybody, you know, if it was a, if it was a run on the bank, if it was a jailbreak and everybody left, that would not be great. But this is, I think at the end of the day, it's okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

As I think it through. Let me just, let me offer then, I guess my, another part of my pushback, which is if, and I don't know if this was the case as we went into sort of 19, early 1930s Germany. Whether or not there becomes a dominant sense over time where, like, at first it feels like cajoling or like, you have some say in the matter, and then at some point, you become afraid and you join the dominant, scary thing to save yourself. Right. And I wonder if you end up giving Trump too much power. Right. The power for people to think the time and the opportunity to push back is over, that they will have missed the window of being able to do something, and then, like, pretty soon, it gets too scary for them to speak up at all. And I think that I don't want people to have that message. I don't think it's true in this moment. I think you can still do a lot to brush Trump back with public opinion, and you've got to go fight for that.

[JVL]

Yep.

[Sarah Longwell]

And, and I think, like, there's still enough virtue in this republic, if not to save it in order to prolong it, in order to live to fight another day, in order to, you know, wait Trump out there. And, like, I don't know. I think it's too early to say we're descending into that level of madness, and I just worry that it creates a level of defeatism that gives people the sense that they, too, need to opt out of fighting back.

[JVL]

I, I hear that. I think that's a totally valid concern. On the other hand, the people who are going to capitulate are already doing it, and they don't have to be told. I have two friends within conservative world who are still hanging in, in conservative world who were in the last several days, both fired, and they were not. The people who fired them did not need to be told by Trump to get rid of any dissident voices they understood. You know, this is the. It's the Vaclav Havel greengrocer story. Right. And this is how authoritarianism works. So I, I mean, I, I worry much more about the people who, who simply refuse to stand up at all more than I do about the people who've been standing up, deciding to fold up their tent and, and leave because they're, you know, there are a handful of them, but the, the number of people.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I think that's really fair.

[JVL]

Never. Who are never going to say any boo. They were just going to go along to get along. This is, I mean, again, there's another line about this. I don't know who this is. Hemingway, you know, there, there are many people who, who do not under. Who do not know that they are fascists, but we'll find out when the time comes like that that turns out to be super true.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, this is dark.

[JVL]

I'm sorry. That's just me being me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know, I know. I think, I think I thought I had more pushback in me on them, and it turns out that I have some pushback, but that I take your point about, like, it's not. It's not entirely irrational.

[JVL]

Let me, let me, Let me try to frame it in a way that might really appeal to you in this.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do that and do it in a way that closes us out for this video in.

[JVL]

In the same way that when we came to, like, opposing Trumpism, the answer wasn't like, this is. This path is the way to do it. Everybody has to do it. The idea was like, nobody knows what's best. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Let everybody do. And like, we'll figure things out. I, I sort of take that approach here. Like, if Timothy Snyder leaving and making a stink about it, maybe that'll work. Sarah and Ben Whittis staying here and, you know, going to the barricades, maybe that'll work. Let's everybody try in the way that we think is best and that we think we can. We can do the most effectively.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, jbl, it's a rare. It's a rare chat where I really do come your way. That's not going to happen tomorrow on the secret podcast. I will just give you fair warning.

[JVL]

Oh, boy, I might be sick tomorrow morning. It's hard to say. I'm answer calling. You know, we could do a solo show where you just rant about me straight to camera for 45 minutes.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I'm gonna read you passages of yourself back to you, and we're going to talk about them one at a time.

[JVL]

Guys, hit subscribe. Hit like, follow us, because you need uplifting content that is hashtag blessed in your life. And that's what we give you right here at the Bulwark. Good luck, America.

[Sarah Longwell]

Bye.