Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "How Do We Fight Fascism? Flee or Fight?"

Episode Information:

• Title: How Do We Fight Fascism? Flee or Fight?
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Release Date: May 15, 2025

In this compelling episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts JVL and Sarah Longwell delve into the pressing question of how to combat the rising tide of fascism in contemporary America. Drawing inspiration from a recent New York Times video featuring three former Yale professors, the discussion navigates the complex terrain of resistance versus retreat in the face of authoritarian threats.

1. Introduction to the Debate

The episode opens with JVL introducing the topic, referencing a New York Times video where three esteemed Yale professors—Marcy Shore, Timothy Snyder, and Jason Stanley—announce their departure to the University of Toronto due to burgeoning fascist sentiments in the United States.

[00:00] JVL: "Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Today in the New York Times we had a video from three former professors of Yale explaining why they are leaving the country and heading up to the University of Toronto because of all of the incipient fascism."

Sarah responds by sharing her personal connection to the video, revealing that her image was used to amplify the message of impending danger.

[00:28] Sarah Longwell: "Well, it's... they are saying they are leaving because of the fascism. ... they show a bunch of clips of people sort of warning how bad it is. And one of them is my, you know, close-up face."

2. Personal Impact and Media Representation

Sarah discusses her unexpected appearance in the video and criticizes how her image was utilized to instill fear about speaking out against authoritarian figures.

[00:59] Sarah Longwell: "It's like me on Nicole Wallace to make people afraid of speaking out against him."

JVL humorously recalls Sarah's appearance in a Mark Carney advertisement, highlighting the juxtaposition of her public persona.

[01:02] JVL: "It's like when you showed up in the Mark Carney ad."

Sarah further elaborates on the ad's message, emphasizing the contrast between American and Canadian approaches to political turmoil.

[01:07] Sarah Longwell: "The now Canadian prime minister used in his like closing ad... It cuts to a clip of me yelling at Scott Jennings on CNN."

3. Analyzing the Professors' Departure

The conversation shifts to unpacking JVL's "triad," a framework Sarah previously introduced, which they describe as a "bleak bummer" challenging their worldviews.

[01:58] Sarah Longwell: "... we have to spend all day tomorrow fighting, I just, I wonder what you think about this in light of your idea that sort of people are unsalvageable and American voters are unsalvageable."

JVL clarifies that his initial remarks were more introspective than intended.

[01:59] JVL: "It was really me talking with myself."

Sarah seeks JVL's perspective on whether America is heading towards a 1930s-like fascist landscape, questioning the professors' rationale for fleeing.

[02:08] Sarah Longwell: "I don't think people should be leaving or fleeing the country. ... I think we have to stay here and fight."

4. Historical Parallels and Contemporary Concerns

JVL draws parallels between the current moment and the pre-fascist era of the early 1930s, emphasizing the inability to recognize the descent until it's too late.

[03:31] JVL: "Look in 1931 people didn't realize it was 1931... It's like... until the day when the tanks are actually in the streets."

Sarah concurs, highlighting the subtlety with which authoritarianism can insidiously take root.

[04:55] Sarah Longwell: "You sort of don't know that's where you are until it's too late."

5. The Role of Intellectuals and Privilege in Resistance

JVL references a piece by Bed Witness on Lawfare that counters the professors' departure as defeatist, advocating instead for active resistance.

[05:01] JVL: "Our friend Bed Witness wrote a really stirring piece at Lawfare today pushing back against this as defeatism."

Sarah emphasizes the importance of not succumbing to defeatism, stressing that those with privilege have a responsibility to utilize their platforms to fight back.

[08:05] Sarah Longwell: "... we have the privilege of platform, we have the privilege of American citizenship... we should use it."

JVL further explains that while the professors' actions are concerning, their departure alone isn't catastrophic unless it becomes a widespread trend.

[10:21] JVL: "... it's not terrible to have like Tim Snyder's a real grownup... But it would be bad if everybody... left."

6. Defeatism versus Active Resistance

The hosts explore the fine line between raising alarms and fostering a sense of hopelessness. Sarah fears that advocating for fleeing might inadvertently encourage others to give up without resistance.

[12:26] Sarah Longwell: "... I'm worried that it creates a level of defeatism that gives people the sense that they, too, need to opt out of fighting back."

JVL counters by distinguishing between respectful disagreement and widespread capitulation, emphasizing the importance of active participation in resistance.

[15:19] JVL: "... I worry much more about the people who simply refuse to stand up at all more than I do about the people who've been standing up."

7. Historical Lessons and Future Strategies

Drawing from historical examples, JVL and Sarah reflect on how authoritarian regimes often co-opt or silence dissenting voices, underscoring the necessity of vigilance and proactive resistance.

[16:25] JVL: "This is how authoritarianism works. ... we'll find out when the time comes like that."

Sarah reinforces the need to empower individuals to speak out and engage in democratic processes to prevent the erosion of freedoms.

[17:28] JVL: "Let everybody try in the way that we think is best... we can do the most effectively."

8. Conclusion: Empowerment and Agency

In wrapping up the discussion, JVL encourages listeners to subscribe and engage with the content, emphasizing the importance of staying informed and active in the fight against authoritarianism.

[18:39] JVL: "Guys, hit subscribe. Hit like, follow us... That's what we give you right here at the Bulwark. Good luck, America."

Sarah closes with a firm stance against defeatism, advocating for collective agency and resistance.

[18:51] Sarah Longwell: "Bye."

Key Takeaways:

• The departure of prominent academics due to fears of rising fascism is a cause for concern and debate.
• While some argue for fleeing as a form of resistance, others advocate for staying and actively fighting to preserve democratic values.
• Privileged individuals and those with platforms bear a greater responsibility to lead in the resistance against authoritarianism.
• Historical parallels serve as cautionary tales, highlighting the subtle and often unrecognized descent into fascism.
• Empowerment, active participation, and maintaining a sense of agency are crucial in combating the erosion of democratic institutions.

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a nuanced examination of the strategies for resisting authoritarianism, balancing the urgency of the threat with practical considerations of how individuals can effectively contribute to safeguarding democracy.