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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, thank you for joining us again for another Bulwark video. I'm really excited. Today we have Rosario Marin. She's a former George W. Bush administration official. She's an og, never Trumper. So, yeah, let's just get right into it. Rosario, talk to us about your background, and then I would love to get talk a little bit about what's going on with El Salvador and Trump. But let's start with you.
- [00:24]
B
Thank you, Adriana. It's a pleasure to be here. So I am an immigrant, and as a matter of fact, President Bush, when he nominated me, and I was confirmed unanimously by the US Senate, I became the first and so far the only immigrant woman to have been the Treasurer of the United States. It's a great honor. Obviously, not only am I an immigrant, but I'm from Mexico. I am so grateful for the opportunities that this country has given me. And having made history as the first and only woman to be immigrant woman to be Treasurer of the United States, I feel it is my duty because I think one of the reasons why the president appointed me Treasurer of the United States because of my background, because who I represent. So I will never, ever forget who I represent, and I represent the immigrant community.
- [01:28]
A
I wanted to talk to you about the circumstances of your trip to El Salvador. You told me a little bit about it. How did you find yourself. Why did you find yourself in El Salvador? And then talk to me. You met with, you know, the strongman, the El Salvador president, Nayib Bukele. Talk to me about that, what that meeting and what those meetings were.
- [01:45]
B
Yeah, Actually did not meet with him. I met with some people of his administration. I had gone before to El Salvador because of Special Olympics. This was a few years back. And this time around, I was invited to attend some meetings and to support an organization that provides services to people with disabilities. So that was basically the intent of my going there. But as I got there, I was able to meet with some people who basically not only do work, they work for the administration of the president, but they were also supporting the efforts to help people with disabilities.
- [02:28]
A
And what did you learn? I was very. I was taken aback by you talking about, you know, these raids that they do in El Salvador where they're looking for supposed gang members over, you know, raids in the whole country, over 80,000 people taken. And you said something interesting about a police officer is needed at these raids, that federal authorities can't just take somebody. And I find it interesting because I think that already in what you're describing, what is going on here we can see where the Trump administration took some echoes and learned from El Salvador. So can you talk about that?
- [03:01]
B
Yeah. So it was very interesting. On my previous visit, the security in El Salvador was very questionable. You could see not only graffiti all over the country, but you could see. And you can sense this sense of insecurity. Women, after certain time of the day, like in the afternoon, they were not going anywhere. So there was this incredible sense of insecurity. Interestingly enough, when I got to El Salvador, it wasn't last December, but it was the previous December. When I got there, it was night and day. It was night and day. I mean, I saw people walking at 10:30 at night. I saw women walking at 10:30 at night, which was unheard of. And so I was talking to different people. I was introduced to many, many people. I talked to people that would. That would give me a ride. And this sense of security was very significant. You can actually sense it. You can actually feel it. I came back and I was like, wow, this is really amazing. And so in trying to find out how this happened and this transformation from a very insecure place to a very secure place, I found out how they did that. And now what is happening, it was like, this is very similar. They're doing the same thing that they did in El Salvador, because at that time, when president Bukele took over, it was clear to him, at least, or so his administration officials say, that the most important issue was security. The difference with the United States is that we're a pretty secure nation. And yes, we have our problems, but it wasn't as rampant as it was in El Salvador, and what they did. So the federal government, as I understand it, the federal government in El Salvador didn't have the authority, doesn't have the authority to go and arrest people, but the local police could. And so they devised this plan to arrest people. And they knew very well that people, from what they call it, Ms. La Mara Salvatucha, which is the gang members that were first here in the United States, many of them were deported to El Salvador many, many years ago and so forth. And then they created their units over there in El Salvador. One of the things that is very poignant is that they all have tattoos. They all have tattoos, they cover themselves, and many of them actually have Ms. In their tattoos. That was one of the defining issues for the administration. If you have a tattoo, most likely you're a gang member. And if you're a gang member, you most likely are from Maras albatrucha. So you have, what that means is you've been a criminal. And so they decided, they created this. To me, it was just very significant amount of people that they were able to round up on the first get go. And so because the federal government cannot, and the local police didn't have the power, but they had was one police officer that would go to this group of men that were mainly in a corner, if you will, and that police officer would say, you're all under arrest. And then the support would come from the federal government. They came in and they grabbed them all. And in one day, I mean, in one sweep across, as I understood it, as they gave me these figures and you know, give or take a few, but around 87,000 people they were able to round out in the, in the first session. Interestingly enough, they realized that within these groups they were going to be innocent bystanders, people that were not members of the gang. But they decided that, hey, we're going to round them up. Maybe somebody was going by, maybe was the custody of somebody, but they were all together. And so they understood that not everybody that they rounded up was a criminal, but they will deal with that individually later on.
- [07:21]
A
I was just going to say, when you told me this, I found it to be somewhat chilling. And let's just go through what you said. You know, the United States is not El Salvador when it comes to safety, when it comes to security. So that's the first thing we need to understand here. This was literally a country that had so many safety and crime issues that they were saying we have to do these, these, these things, these crazy things to try to get the country under control. But we can see where the Trump administration is taking their cues, I think, and we're gonna get into some of the closeness between these administrations. But, you know, and then that's the other piece that I found chilling when you and I first spoke. They might get a neighbor, they might get a cousin, they might get someone just passing by who happens to be passing by in the corner. And so El Salvador knew they were getting innocent people. And now when we see what the US Government is doing. Tattoos, using tattoos. I wrote about this recently for my newsletter, using tattoos and saying that this is some incredible fail safe marker of a gang member when everybody knows that people have all different types of tattoos, particularly ones that are so I would say, I guess, common, you know, crowns, roses, things like that. Anyway, so I found that to be particularly interesting. And what I want to sort of get into is a little bit, I think it's obvious that Bukele has a closeness with the Trump administration. We can see that from after Trump was convicted. During the campaign, Republicans went to El Salvador to, you know, MSNBC said to gush over an authoritarian who was there, Tucker Carlson, Matt Gaetz, you know who else was there? Don Jr. Donald Trump Jr. Was there. And so I think between the closeness there and also they felt snubbed by the Biden administration. Some. Do you know a little bit about that?
- [09:04]
B
Apparently there was a time when President Bukele was here in the United States and either he had requested a meeting or he was expecting to have a meeting with President Biden. And my understanding is for some reason, whatever the reason was, that that meeting was they were unable to secure that meeting. And so you don't do that to a head of state. Yeah, and I don't know the circumstances. This is information that was given to me third hand. But. But nevertheless, it was significant in that it seemed or it appeared that that was something that was not accepted.
- [09:47]
A
And I think that that is very interesting because I read it was in 2021, Bukele came to Washington. He wants to meet with Biden. He feels snubbed. And I think that that's interesting because the Biden administration sort of didn't want to give this legitimacy to this rising dictator. I think there was some headline, the world's coolest dictator. So it's sort of obvious that this guy wants that attention, that legitimacy, and Trump is very much giving him that. Where we saw this slick propaganda video and can you talk to me about. So from the US Point of view, we see the El Salvador president shares this video on X. It's this propaganda video of these, these men and they're being roughly handled. They're being hit. They had their heads shaved. We are told as Americans that these are the worst of the worst. These are gang members. Of course, stories are now coming out. One of them was a gay hairdresser who was saying, I'm a gay man, I'm not a gang member. Our colleague at the Bulwark, Tim Miller, has been very strong on this, very frustrated about what the administration is doing. And so we know that out of the 260 men, these are not all gang members.
- [11:02]
B
But.
- [11:02]
A
But so Bukele has a history of doing videos like this.
- [11:06]
B
Well, he had done them back in when they did the raids, a few, because he did get a number of accusations and finger pointing. And you know what, what is fascinating to me, Adrian, is that people in El Salvador are really grateful that he has had this very strong hand and that now they are secure. I asked people, so what do you think of your president? And people unanimously, there was not one person that I talked to that. I mean, and this is people just. I was just asking people. And there is not one person that doesn't admire and is grateful for what he has done. And you could see, I mean, he was reelected overwhelmingly, you know, because he brought that sense of security. What is different for the United States is that we still have laws, we still have protections. Even criminals have protections, you know. And I am very strong on crime, and my background here in the city of Huntington park reflects that. I am not soft on crime at all. I'm very strong on crime. But we do it within the context of the Constitution, and we respect the Constitution of the United States. So it is interesting that some of these people have ended up. They're innocent people. They're soccer players, they're musicians. And now they're out there. Because my concern is that the executive decided completely and unilaterally defy the judicial order. And that, to me, is chilling. This is not. We are not an authoritarian country.
- [13:08]
A
Well, exactly that we are not.
- [13:10]
B
So it is very frightening. And where it. It is leading us to.
- [13:14]
A
We are supposed to be the strongest democracy in the world, and we are a place that has forever been a place where you could claim asylum here if you are. If there is a gang terrorizing you. I mean, I think one of the. One of the members is basically like, was claiming asylum and being scared of gangs. One of the men who was taking to El Salvador was somebody who had protested against Maduro in Venezuela. And for that he was electrocuted and suffocated. So he feared going back to the country that has always been our legal immigration system to go along with illegal immigration policies. I want to have one last one for you and Rosario. You and I could stay here and talk about so many different issues. We did the other day. And so I won't hold you that long. But I think this is important because so many people are shocked by what we're seeing. This erosion of our democracy and our due process, the lack of integrity from people who normally have been conservative or have been Republican or have been, or know that this is not. This is not right, what's going on. And this interest in sort of being this proximity to power and what people, all of a sudden, they forget their morals, their integrity. I wanted to ask you about that. You worked for Governor Pete Wilson. There was, for the audience, not as familiar. There was this sort of infamous Prop 187, it was in the 1990s, and it was in many ways like a precursor to what we later saw in Arizona, SB 1070, what we certainly saw in the Trump administrations, which is this, you know, making it impossible, really, for immigrants to live in a state like California at the time. So, obviously, you worked for Pete Wilson. You agreed with him on many policies. You did not agree with him on Prop 187. And I wanted you to talk to me about the times that you threatened to quit over these policies.
- [14:59]
B
So I had worked for the governor, and he was seeking reelection, and at the same time, Proposition 187 was in the ballot. And I basically said, I will work very, very hard. And I talked to the campaign. They brought in a group of Latinos to come from the campaign, from the reelection campaign. We obviously met outside, and it was in our own time, but they asked how. How did we feel about the reelection and were we willing to help and blah, blah, blah. At the end, I got up in the middle of the room and my voice shaking and my knee shaking, and I told the campaign, I said, I am going to do everything in my power to get the governor reelected, but I am telling you right here, right now, I'm going to do everything in my power to defeat Proposition 187. And I beg you, I beg you to take those commercials where they had a classroom of immigrant children. This is so painful for me as an immigrant to watch. And the gentleman in charge of the campaign, he says, well, that's a separate campaign. That's not our campaign. And I said, I understand. I'm just telling you that this is unacceptable. And he asked everybody there, he says, how does everybody feel about that? Do you think they should take this off? And one by one raised their hand, but somebody had to be the one that says, no more. Please stop this. And thankfully, Proposition 187, even though it passed, it was found unconstitutional, and. And it was never implemented. But the damage that that did to the Republican Party in California, we see the results today. California is completely and totally represented by the Democrat Party, and our Republicans are just a handful of them.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I just thought that was an important story for people to hear, to people to know a little bit more about you, and for people to know that it's not mutually exclusive to have a. An important role, but then also to have that integrity and use, Use your voice in moments like that, and, and obviously in what we're seeing with what's going on now. Thank you so much, Rosario, for joining us. Thank you, Bulwark Family, again for checking us out. Please continue to like and subscribe. And please check out my Huddled Masses newsletter on Wednesdays and Friday mornings in your inbox. Thank you so much.