How MAGA is Splitting The Catholic Church | WTF 2.0

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How MAGA is Splitting The Catholic Church | WTF 2.0"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bulwark Takes
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode: How MAGA is Splitting The Catholic Church | WTF 2.0
• Release Date: February 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts A and B delve into the intricate dynamics between the MAGA movement and the Catholic Church in America. They explore how political affiliations, particularly those aligned with Donald Trump and his supporters, are causing internal divisions within the Church. The discussion covers recent criticisms from political figures, the financial implications for Catholic Charities, the role of Pope Francis, and the broader impact on American Catholicism.

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J.D. Vance's Criticism of the Catholic Church

The conversation begins with an examination of J.D. Vance’s recent remarks targeting the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB).

Speaker A highlights Vance's stance:

"J.D. vance, who's been Catholic for five minutes, who a couple weeks ago took after the USCCB... [01:59]"

Speaker B elaborates on Vance's accusations:

"He accused the bishops conference, the usccb, of padding its bottom line by taking federal grant money to resettle what he called illegal immigrants... [01:58]"

Vance alleges that the Church benefits financially from immigration efforts, suggesting that Catholic Charities are profiting from federal funds.

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Catholic Charities' Financial Strain with Federal Funding

Speaker B provides a deeper analysis of the financial relationship between the USCCB and federal funding:

"The amount of money that Catholic Charities get from federal grants rises and falls a great deal depending on who's in the White House... [02:30]"

He clarifies that despite significant federal grants—reporting figures like "$130 million in 2023"—Catholic Charities operates at a loss, spending more than it receives. This challenges Vance’s assertion that the Church views immigration as a profit center.

Speaker A counters the notion of profit-driven charity:

"Anybody who has ever spent five minutes doing any sort of charity work in or around the Catholic Church will instantly understand that ain't nobody getting rich... [03:46]"

The hosts emphasize that Catholic Charities rely heavily on volunteers and operate on tight budgets, debunking claims that the Church is financially motivated in its humanitarian efforts.

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Pope Francis's Intervention

The discussion shifts to the unprecedented response from Pope Francis regarding the criticisms.

Speaker B highlights Pope Francis's direct involvement:

"Pope Francis wrote a letter about what's going on coming out of the White House... [05:14]"

This marks a rare instance where the Pope publicly addresses domestic political issues, particularly criticizing the Trump administration's immigration policies. The Pope underscores principles like human rights and dignity, directly challenging Vance's viewpoint.

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Impact on the Catholic Community and Voting Trends

Speaker A and Speaker B explore how these political tensions are influencing Catholic voters:

Speaker A observes:

"Catholics now vote the way Protestant evangelicals do... [10:00]"

Speaker B offers a more nuanced perspective:

"There's no such thing as the Catholic vote as a block you can win... [11:18]"

They discuss the diversity within the Catholic electorate, noting that while some Catholics align closely with Republican or Democratic values, others prioritize their faith over party affiliation. This fragmentation reflects broader societal trends and the evolving demographic landscape of American Catholics.

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The Future of the Catholic Church in the US

The hosts contemplate the long-term implications of the current political schism.

Speaker B asserts:

"The entire institutional way the Church in the United States operates is in flux right now... [19:27]"

Factors such as declining attendance, financial challenges from lawsuits, and the Church's increasing political engagement are transforming the traditional role of Catholic institutions in America. The conversation suggests that without a clear vision for the future, the Church may struggle to maintain its historical influence and cohesive community.

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The Health and Future of Pope Francis

Concluding the episode, the discussion turns to Pope Francis's health and the uncertainty surrounding the next papal conclave.

Speaker B remarks on the Pope's health:

"Pope Francis is in great health... [26:37]"

However, he acknowledges the guarded nature of Vatican communications and speculates about potential developments:

"We're definitely not in the front half of this pontificate... [26:37]"

The unpredictability of the upcoming conclave is highlighted, with Speaker B noting the diverse and unfamiliar makeup of the College of Cardinals, which may lead to unforeseen outcomes in selecting the next Pope.

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Conclusion

The episode of Bulwark Takes provides a comprehensive analysis of the tensions between the MAGA movement and the Catholic Church in America. Through insightful discussion, the hosts shed light on the financial, political, and spiritual challenges facing the Church, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of this complex interplay. As the Catholic Church navigates these turbulent waters, the future of its role in American society remains a critical area to watch.

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Notable Quotes:

• Speaker A ([01:59]):

  "J.D. vance... accuse the bishops of padding their bottom line by taking federal grant money to resettle what he called illegal immigrants."

• Speaker B ([03:46]):

  "Every charity drive or initiative that any Catholic Church anywhere in America does is done on a shoestring and it's almost entirely volunteers."

• Speaker B ([05:14]):

  "Pope Francis wrote a letter about what he called the major catastrophe... warning about human rights, human dignity, due process."

• Speaker A ([10:00]):

  "Catholics now vote the way Protestant evangelicals do... it's being less true over the last couple of elections."

• Speaker B ([19:27]):

  "There's no clear vision for what American Catholicism 2.0 looks like either at the 30,000 foot level or at your local parish level."

• Speaker B ([26:37]):

  "The next conclave... a group of relative strangers who in large part have never heard of each other, who are just going to get locked in a room and told, okay, figure it out who's going to be the Pope."

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a cohesive narrative for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Catholic Church is kind of important to world affairs. You may or may not have noticed that over the course of the last 2000 years. And the Catholic Church is going to become increasingly important to American politics, I think in ways which nobody who's Catholic would actually prefer. But. But here we are. And let's Just start with J.D. vance, who's been Catholic for five minutes, who a couple weeks ago took after the USCCB, the United States Conference of Catholic Conference of Bishops, because they. They. Ed, am I wrong to say that the vice President's position was that Catholics are pro illegal immigrant because they're all getting rich off of serving immigrants?

[B]

That's pretty much what he said. What he actually said was he accused the bishops conference, the usccb, of padding its bottom line by taking federal grant money to resettle what he called illegal immigrants. Of course, what they're actually resettling is vetted refugees. But, you know, potato, potato, I guess.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But yeah, he basically said that the church is a position on immigration. The Catholic bishops, who've always been very much in favor of both comprehensive immigration reform and, you know, actually clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, helping people who are on the street, people who have nowhere to go settle in, especially if they're refugees. He said that that's basically a money making concern for them, which, you know, was kind of ironic because, you know, a lot. This is a talking point that you see a lot. I remember seeing this on something called Fox and Friends, which I'd never seen before, like five years ago when I first moved back to the States. And I couldn't quite believe that people were shocked that the Catholic Church, through Catholic Charities, was, you know, working with refugees. But apparently that's a hot topic for some people. I mean, it's true the uscc, being farm, takes in a lot of federal grant money and then farms it out to local Catholic charities. I think they've done something like $800 million in the last 10 years, more or less. So it is, it is a lot of money. But to accuse them of sort of patting their bottom line and say, well, this is a profit center for them, which is what you hear most often. The bishops love immigration because it's a profit center for them. It's not actually, it's a loss making concern. The amount of money that Catholic Charities get from federal grants rises and falls a great deal depending on who's in the White House. So in 2020, for example, when Trump was last in, they got $48 million and in 2023, they had $130 million come in in that year, federal grant money. So it gives you an idea of like, you know, it really doubles, triples even depending on who's in the White House. But every single year they're spending more than they're taking in. This is actually a loss center for the usccb. They're taking in tens of millions of dollars and then they're spending millions of their own money on top of that just to do work with refugees. And they're getting kicked in the shins for this by, by the Vice President, which is kind of surprising.

[A]

I, I would also say that anybody who has ever spent five minutes doing any sort of charity work in or around the Catholic Church will instantly understand that ain't nobody getting rich.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

Every, every charity drive or initiative that any Catholic Church anywhere in America does is done on a shoestring and it's almost entirely volunteers. And you're like working out of some basement that doesn't have heat. And it's the idea that anyway, this is like the time of thing. I might have expected a, like a Southern Baptist from mega church to say about Catholics, but Instead it was J.D. vance, who himself is a, oh, very devout Catholic. So, so what happened from that? I mean, was there any pushback? Did the, did the bishops say.

[B]

Yeah, there's been a lot of pushback. The bishops put out a statement that said, you know, in their politest way because, you know, they have, they have to be professionals about these things, objecting in the strongest possible terms and pointing to inconvenient facts like, you know, yeah, we took in 130 million in federal money to deal with refugees and help resettlement through Catholic Charities. Last year or in 2023, we spent 134 million on it though. So, you know, cost us 4 million on the deal. I don't know that we can call us padding our bottom line there, but it actually, the pushback got a little bigger Last week, Pope Francis wrote a letter about this pope.

[A]

Tambourines.

[B]

Yeah, Pope Francis, It's. It takes a lot to get the Pope, any pope, to make a direct intervention in international affairs generally that, you know, when there isn't actually a war going on, but to, you know, have the Pope write a letter about what's going on coming out of the White House was kind of shocking, kind of a big deal. I can't think, I can't remember a time when this has ever happened, apart from maybe on the eve of the Iraq war with JP2, John Paul II. So that was kind of a big deal. And Pope Francis not only wrote a letter about what he called the, you know, the major catastrophe, the, you know, the horrible situation going on with the Trump administration's program of mass deportation, warning about human rights, human dignity, due process, all the stuff you'd expect the Pope to name check, but then he kind of poked a finger in J.D. vance's chest personally, because along the way, in all of the back and forth about this, J.D. vance ended up in a Twitter fight with a guy called Rory Stewart, who used to be a Member of Parliament in Britain. And JD Vance is part of this Twitter exchange with him. Said it's called the Order of Morris. Google it. Because I think Rory had basically questioned JD Vance's Christian bona fides by, you know, not not wanting to give a bunch of money to help refugees and stuff. And he said, it's called the Order of Morris. Google it. And Pope Francis gave this like two paragraph long. By the way, just to clarify, the Order of Morris does not mean that you have license to love some people less than others. Like the principle that, you know, you have to, you have to help and love everyone. That's a, that's a Christian principle. If you really want to meditate on something about who you need, who's your neighbor, who you need to love, there's this thing called the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Look it up. And, you know, it's weird enough to have the Pope wading into domestic political affairs of any country, but to have the Pope kind of give a hot take on a Twitter fight with the Vice President, that was a new one for me. I've not seen that one before.

[A]

I just want to clarify for people here because I saw somebody say this in the comments and you mentioned this. Catholic Charities, Catholic Church is working with refugees. It is the stated, the stated protocol of the Trump administration is to view even well documented refugees who are here according to law as illegal immigrants. And so their view is that anybody who came in is here illegally. And so this is why this is what's going on here. So that's the first. So the next step is the church getting as part of the USAID feeding into the wood chipper. Talk to me a little bit about that. And so USAID Aid is this giant, giant organization, and it does a lot of its work on its own, but a lot of its work actually is subcontracted out to other organizations, including Catholic organizations. So talk to me about what's going on with that for the Catholics.

[B]

Well, so I think I said it earlier, like something close to 800 million over the last 10 years is what the US Bishops Conference, the US Catholic Bishops Conference, sort of broadly taken in from federal funding from one source or like usa, USAID and stuff like that. But they don't, I mean, they don't spend the money. They don't run the programs themselves. They're kind of a clearinghouse and they farm it out to Catholic Charities, Capital C, Capital C, which is in sort of affiliated network of localized outreach programs and charities that administer the funds at a local level. And what they have all found is that it's not just that future funding has been cut off.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Future funding has been cut off. But invoices, they've been, they've been presenting for the last six weeks for previously agreed and executed work and projects are just not being met. Like they're not paying their bills. Yeah, they're just walking away from the check on work already done. And so we're seeing tons of layoffs. We've seen the USCCB laid off, off, I think 50 people, which, you know, the USCCB is not a big organization. You know, it's 50 people is a big part of its workforce. But it's even worse on the ground. Like Catholic Charities of Houston, which does, as you would imagine, a lot of work with people who are living in extreme poverty and who are recent migrants, refugees, you know, working with families, trying to keep families together, resell people, keep them off the street. You know, all the sorts of things that you want to do to stop people from, you know, depending on how your level of paranoia about people who've entered the country, whether you're stopping people from living on the street and being exploited or eating your pets, if that's the sort of thing that you're concerned is going to happen, you would think that you'd want this sort of stuff to happen. And so Catholic Charity of Houston had to lay off 120 people two weeks ago. Because they said it's not just that we can't keep our current rate of programs going. They're not paying the check on what we've already done. Like, we just, we can't pay our bills. That's what's happening. So we've laid on.

[A]

So they're leaving them in arrears, basically, right?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Which is like you just say this is the Trump MO throughout his entire business career, which is to, you know, you get people to provide a service and then you have them over the barrel when it comes to pay. So you, you know, you renegotiate. Yeah, yeah. What's the Catholic Church going to do? File a lawsuit against the federal government and get them to pay. And maybe three years from now, that suit winds its way through the, through the courts. And I don't know, man. Is this something that people in Catholic world are concerned about? Because my sense, and maybe I'm wrong, and this is. This is largely my own experience, is that a large portion of the Catholic Church has been modified. And I don't think it's exactly true that Catholics now vote the way Protestant evangelicals do, but it feels as though they are trending in that direction after basically being like, split. I mean, typically for the last 30 years or so, the Catholic vote has split basically the way the popular vote has split. Well, you know, Catholics sort of look like the rest of America. My sense is that that has, that has, that is being less true over the last couple of elections.

[B]

I don't know that it's necessarily less true. I mean, my, my grand unified theory on Catholic elections has been there's no such thing as the Catholic vote as a block you can win. And you, you often hear that because it's demographically big enough. There are enough numbers of people who are Catholic in the country that if you can win the Catholic vote, you can win, but.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The idea of a block vote that is the Catholic vote I don't think exists or has existed probably for at least 60 years, if not longer. But what you do tend to get with the quote unquote, Catholic vote is it's an incredibly good cross section of the country. Like, it's a great snapshot of voter trends generally. But you are seeing the Catholic, the demographics of Catholics in America changing a little bit along with the rest of the country. And it's, it's ahead of the curve on a lot of it. So there are a lot more Hispanic Catholics than there are Hispanic Americans, generally speaking. So you see trends that way. Distorting the Catholic vote versus the general vote, I think a little faster and a little more. But I think you say a large part of the Catholic Church in America has been magnified. I don't know if it's a large part, but it is a part. Because like I was saying, you have, I think in the church in the United States, you have a lot of Catholic Republicans, you have a lot of Catholic Democrats. And it's not entirely clear to me whether they see themselves as Catholic first or Republicans first or Catholics first and Democrats first. And I don't think it's out of line with how a lot of people practice Christianity in this country anymore. I mean, what is for sure true, and we know this from poll after poll after poll from every different kind of outlet, is pretty much any politically engaged Catholic in this country, not all of them by any stretch of the imagination, but most of them will disagree with or outright dissent from Catholic Church teaching on one or two big issues, usually in line with their party affiliation. You know, trying to find a really active Catholic Republican who is, you know, I'm Pro Life 100. Absolutely. Downtick it. No problem. But ask them, you know, all right, well, okay, so are you post the death penalty, which the Catholic Church is. And then it's like, well, okay, not that. That's a matter of prudential judgment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I know the Pope said. I know the Pope said we should be against it, but, you know, it's a matter of potentially ditto. You find, you know, really energized Catholic Democrats. You always have. And then you say, okay, well, what about abortion? I say, well, you know, the church is just wrong on that one. So this idea of American Catholics becoming more magnified, it is a trend. It's definitely a trend, but I think it's a trend that you're just seeing as the Republican Party gets magnified and. No, that's an excellent country.

[A]

Yeah. So, so what's going to happen here, though? Because, I mean, Trump is bringing the, the federal government into direct conflict with the church and not conflict in the way that, like, so the fight over abortion would be direct conflict, except that that is of an issue that is basically external to the church. I don't mean external philosophically, but I mean like, like actually literally like it is, you know, whereas this stuff is like the federal government coming to take, take funding away from the Catholic Church. And to like, to, to physically touch the church, is that going to be a problem or like that the church is going to have to grapple with or what Will they become less likely to criticize because they feel like they've got to tread lightly in order to. Well, you know, gotta. Gotta make things work where we can. Right. Because that.

[B]

No, I don't think they're gonna tread lightly on this one. The bishops are. The bishops have been mad as hell. I mean, you can't find a Catholic bishop in this country who is, I don't want to say pro Trump. I don't think he is pro Trump in any meaningful sense of the word, but he's definitely the kind of like, we work with whoever's in power. We take, you know, we take a positive, which you have to. Which you have to, you know, the most pragmatic, the most happy to just say, listen, maybe we can find some stuff and get along with the New York's Cardinal Timothy Dole. Like, he did the invocation at the inauguration. He was the one who came out really swinging when J.D. vance accused the bishops of, you know, basically making a profit off of their work with migrants and refugees. So I don't think they're going to tread softly on this one. I think for a lot of Catholics and a lot of, I think American voters more generally, they're going to discover that how much government money is being administered on things like refugee resettlement, dealing with migrants, dealing with stuff at the border by local charities, and actually have a conversation about, you know, we didn't realize there was all of this going on. There's a lot of work that we don't see being done because we just assume it's all being done by someone else and it doesn't touch the public square or it's.

[A]

It's actually happening in our neighborhood.

[B]

Yeah, it's actually happening in our neighborhood. And it really is important. And I think for a lot of you do see this sort of strain of either MAGA or Maga curious or. Or Trump positive American Catholics saying, well, good, we don't want the church recipient of, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of government funds to, you know, resettle refugees or anything else. We should be out of the business of government. We don't need government money. The church should be the church, the state should be the state. And, you know, why are we enmeshed with all of this? Which, you know, okay, it's a point of view. But again, you ask those people some probing questions, you say, all right, well, fine, what if. What about school vouchers for Catholic schools? You. You want to turn that money away, too? What about if tax dollars are going.

[A]

Well, those are really our dollars anyway, so. Or yeah.

[B]

What if we took money away from Planned Parenthood and gave it to crisis pregnancy centers? Would you be, you know, should we turn that away? Because the government should. We shouldn't be taking government money with the church. You know, I think people tend to have a pretty. A lot of sort of a well and double thing going on. You know, any government money that goes on something I don't like is bad and we should be out of the game. But any government is saying, I like, well, that's ours by Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think people are going to have to get over that cognitive dissonance pretty quickly here.

[A]

So to. Okay, so we have the actual. I don't know if you remember this, but once upon a time, I remember it being a big deal that the Obama administration sued the Little Sisters of the Poor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And can you believe this? Well, in Texas, we have the governor of Texas suing Catholic Charities. Yes. I don't think Republicans are too worried about that for some reason. Can you tell me a little bit about what's going on in. In Texas?

[B]

Well, Texas is really a microcosm of the fight over Catholic Charities and government funding that's been going on all over the country. But Texas is quite literally on the front line here. You know, the. The narrative against Catholic Charities in Texas goes, well, what they're doing is they're basically encouraging or facilitating people coming over the border illegally because they're providing a safety net. They're getting people settled. You know, at the extreme end, you hear people say, well, Catholic Charities is basically engaged in human trafficking. There's no functional difference between people feeding hungry people on the street and coyotes running people across the border, that it's all one and the same. And, you know, I. I find that kind of hard to believe. You have had other instances where Texas has been it at loggerheads, either with Catholic Charities or even diocese, Catholic Diocese down there, because of, for example, church property on the border and saying, well, no, you're not going to put a fence in a wall across our land, you know, for the purposes of this. Not that we want it to be, you know, a funnel for people to cross the border illegally, but, you know, we've got a church on the other side of that where you want to put the fence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm trying to remember what diocese it was. I think it was the Diocese of Brownsville. But there really was a plan to. We're going to build a big, beautiful wall right across from church land and on the wrong side of the Wall is going to be a chapel that belongs to this Texas Catholic Diocese. Like, well, we would rather not have that, thank you. We, we have a right of access to our own chapel, please. So, I mean, Texas is a mess in the sense of, you know, all of these lawsuits and all of these arguments have been going on for a long time.

[A]

Is the, so here's a, here's a large question. What people aren't Catholic may not realize is that, I mean, the Catholic Churches, universal and Catholic, but also every, every church is a little bit distinct. Like the American Catholic Church is not the German Catholic Church. Are we going to wind up seeing what has been historically the Catholic Church in America changing? Because that's one of my views. We've seen a lot of institutions that were once one way in America changing in sort of fundamental ways over the last ten years or so. Is that going to happen to the Catholic Church too?

[B]

Well, the Catholic Church in America is changing fundamentally for issues totally unrelated to this right now. You know, 60 years ago there was a school in every parish. There was a, you know, a Catholic Charities, you know, in every diocese. There was, the church was a huge institutional footprint, socially, you know, Catholic schools, Catholic universities, Catholic sports programs for kids. You know, it was, it was a giant institution. It was, it was a parallel society, quite self conscious.

[A]

You could live your life in a Catholic ghetto.

[B]

And that was the whole. And it was built for that purpose. It was built for the, the situation of the early 20th century, even mid 20th century. They were doing this with JFK, was running that, you know, you'd have people like the, the KKK and the Freemasons running joint ticket candidates to, you know, ban Catholic schools from being able to open in, in a state, stuff like that. So the church focused itself on building basically a parallel American institutional framework for Catholics when they were excluded from other public institutions. But that's all collapsing right now. I mean, the Catholic Church is seeing the same drop in attendance that, you know, religious affiliation is seeing the United States generally. The money is drying up. You've had a lot of diocese going into bankruptcy because of lawsuits over stuff like child abuse. So that whole footprint is changing no matter what schools, you know, schools have been closing, parishes are getting closed and merged. The entire institutional way the Church in the United States operates is in flux right now. And nobody has a real clear vision for, you know, what American Catholicism 2.0 looks like either at the 30,000 foot level or at your local parish level. So that conversation is all going on, feed into it the fact that you know, the church is at once becoming more Hispanic and also a lot more political and also a lot. Little bit more maga. And having very confused, not to say violently opposed and conflicted views on things like immigration. Yeah, it's all to play for.

[A]

That's a, it's all very bad. I kind of liked our little Catholic kiddos. I liked, I, I, I liked it the way it was. You know, I, I feel like it was, it was one perfect.

[B]

It was nice while we had it.

[A]

You know, Boy howdy. I mean, so where do we go from here? This is the, One of the things that I have, you know, we have a mutual friend, Father Harrison. Hi, Father Harrison. And this is, he's, he's a. Our friend. Father Harrison is a priest in Canadia. And he, he has this great perspective because he's not American, and so, but he, you know, pays attention to our world. And I remember he was the first person who said to me, yeah, you guys, like, you know, your, your American Catholicism is as much American as it is Catholicism. And that seems to be coming more. So.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

That makes America American. No, sure.

[B]

Okay. I don't know that you could. Irish Catholicism is as much Irish as it is Catholic. So is Italian Catholicism. So is Mexican Catholicism, at least from my experience of it. You know, there that, you know, the nice word for that in, In Catholic speak is enculturation. It's just whether we like the culture we're seeing reflected in our local church at any given moment. And, you know, that's, that's kind of viewpoint specific, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. All right, well, last, Last question on this then, before we get to the hot watch talk proposed. American Christianity is more American than Christian. Or say that Christian nationalism, this is something not Catholic specific, but we see a lot of what looks like Christian nationalism. And to me, it feels like Christian nationalism is simply a flavor of nationalism, not a flavor of Christianity.

[B]

It certainly feels that way to me whenever I see. Well, whenever I see Christian nationalism discussed right now, that's certainly the impression I get. I mean, Catholic teaching recognizes nations and nation states and the idea of peoples that are coherent and recognizable in. Of themselves, rooted in places as, you know, something that sort of exists as part of the natural order. So it's not to say that, you know, there's, there's a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching that says, like, oh, countries are bad and secondary or arbitrary and they don't have to exist at all. Like, no, it's not what the church teaches, you know, John Paul II was. Was kind of big on the idea of peoples and places and nations and their dignity, and it's how we won the Cold War. But, yeah, you're seeing a very, very different presentation and flavor of it now that basically says it's the same thing of, you know, a Catholic, the church would say, should consider himself a Catholic first. You would. You wouldn't be a Democrat who's, you know, slightly inflected by their Catholicism, or Republican who's slightly inflected with their colossal. You're a Catholic who can lean Republican or Democrat without coloring outside the lines of the faith. And I think the same thing's happening with Christian nationalism. It's like you're seeing the idea of, well, we're nationalists, but we like the sort of Christian flavor and vocab you can put on it. You know, the thing that drove me absolutely crazy last week, and, I mean, there's. There's stuff to drive you crazy every week these days, I suppose, was when J.D. vance gave his speech in Munich at the security conference and, you know, basically trashed the entire European political establishment for walking away from free speech and from, you know, holding, taking seriously their own elections and stuff like that. A lot of which I have to say I agreed with. I lived in Europe for a very, very long time. I worked in European politics for, you know, almost 10 years. So I. I actually jived with a lot of what he was saying. I don't know that at a security conference, what was supposed to be talking about Ukraine and Russia was necessarily the time and place for that. But anyway, it was fine. But at the end, he rounded it off with this call to say, you know, well, as John second said, be not afraid. And you people need to trust your, you know, you need to trust your own voters and you need to, you know, you need to accept the voice of the people, even if it's electing parties you don't agree with. And he was pretty clearly talking about the AfD in Germany. I just kind of was like, I. Okay, I was nodding along like, yeah, the UK is having a crisis of free speech right now. Yeah, the cancellation of the entire election in Romania, that was. That was pretty iffy stuff. But wait a minute. If you think John Paul II would have been like, yeah, be not afraid. I didn't mean. Jesus Christ, I meant of the revanchist nationalist party in Germany.

[A]

You know, the only way to be too truly, truly liberal is to support the Nazis. If you're not on board with the Nazis, then I'm Sorry, you're betraying liberalism. That's great. You know, I lied. Last thing. Last thing. Pope Francis. Pope Tambourines. This is. You have to be a Catholic of a certain age to understand that joke. I don't really want to explain myself, but if you went to any masses in the early 1980s, you're picking up what I'm laying down. What? I mean, he's an old fellow.

[B]

88.

[A]

Pope Francis gonna. We're gonna. Is he gonna be called home at some point? I mean, I assume at some point. What is the next publicly. What is that? What does that look like coming up in the next year?

[B]

If you thought the last US Election was a mess, wait till we get a conclave, man. No, Pope Francis is.

[A]

Are we gonna get a Maga Pope?

[B]

No, there's no chance of that. But we could get something very interesting. You just never know what you might get. No, Pope Francis has been in the hospital for four days now. Coming on five, he's got a respiratory tract infection, which, I mean, the, the usual way they talk about the Pope's health. Not just this Pope, any Pope's health is. Everything is absolutely fine. The Pope is in great health. The Pope is having a routine physical. The Pope's going hella skiing, you know, tomorrow. The Pope has a slight cold. The Pope actually died two weeks ago. Is usually how they roll this stuff out. They don't talk bad things with Pope Francis. And again, he's got a lot of health problems. He is 88. All of that is true. I think it was two years ago now. He was actually having a heart attack. Like he was in the back of an ambulance going from the Vatican to a Roman hospital having all of the symptoms of a heart attack. And the Vatican put out a statement saying, no, it's just routine. It's a pre. Scheduled doctor's appointment, he's fine. And he's in the back of an ambulance having a heart attack. That's how guarded they are.

[A]

It's like the Politburo during the old Soviet days. Right.

[B]

Stalin is. The chairman is fine, absolutely fine. But in this case, they've actually said, well, okay, his prognosis is fair and it's a very complicated situation. And, you know, they're coming as close as they can to say without saying out loud, maybe the Pope is dying. We don't know. But he's. These are going to get more frequent and the health complaints are going to get more serious. You know, we're. The guy's 88, he's been Pope for more than 10 years. We're definitely not in the front half of this pontificate. When the next conclave happens, honestly, nobody has a clue what is going to happen. And then, you know, you'll get your list of, you know, different places will give you the listicle of here are the top three conservatives and here are the top three liberals, and here's the wild card. Nobody has a clue who's going to be in the running, really. Because what's different about the College of Cardinals that elects the pope now, that wasn't true 10 years ago when Pope Francis was elected was they don't really know each other. Pope Francis has made a real effort to like pick wild card guys and make them cardinals from different parts of the world that don't normally get cardinals, you know, little out of the way diocese that people have never heard of and don't know where they are on a map. And he doesn't bring them to Rome anymore with any kind of frequency. They used to go to Rome twice a year to have meetings and get to know each other. So, you know, even though they live all over the world, they have some idea who everybody is. He hasn't been doing that either. So it's going to be a group of relative strangers who in large part have never heard of each other, who are just going to get locked in a room and told, okay, figure it out who's going to be the Pope. That's going to be wild.

[A]

Well, that's why we have the Holy Spirit. A little more Catholic humor for you guys. Hey, guys, go follow the pillar on Substack. These Ed and his his co founder, JD Flynn, also my good friend, although not as good a friend as Ed. All they do is break all of the news that exists in the Catholic world. They do it absolutely without fear or favor. There is no Baghdad Bob happening at the pillar. If you want to understand the Catholic Church in America or globally, you should be reading them. It's absolutely essential. And if you can, you should pay and support their work. Do that for me. Do me a solid. Go sign up and subscribe to the Pillar, Ed. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. Real quick, what are you wearing? It's on the wrist today.

[B]

Tudor Black Bay gmt. Present from a mutual friend of ours. Gave this to me two years ago and yeah, beautiful, beautiful.

[A]

All right, guys, thank you. We will do this again next Tuesday. I don't even know if I know who the guest is yet, but it'll be good. Ed, thank you. I appreciate it, buddy. I will talk to you over text in a couple minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bye guys.

[B]

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