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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark, and I am pleased to be joined by Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. We are here to talk about Donald Trump's pretty overt threats to him and other lawmakers to essentially try on sedition and hang you. I hate to be so blunt about it, but that is what he said, right? I mean, he was on True Social saying that. Before we get into the Senator's reaction, please do subscribe to the feed if you like this content. All right, so, Senator, I mean, I just got to be up front. How did you find out about Trust Trump's posts yesterday, and what was your immediate reaction to them?
- [00:33]
B
I was actually in a, in a brief, in the, in the skiff, which is the secure facility for classified information. I serve on the Intelligence and the Armed Services Committee. That was the Armed Services Committee committee skiff. I actually happened to be sitting next to Alyssa Slotkin, who is also in the video, when one of the staff members come in with a little piece of paper and, and on it was, you know, written what the. Basically what the President said, paraphrased. And then she leaves the room, she comes back later, and she says, oh, yeah, he also threatened to have you executed. So, yeah, I found out from Senator Slotkin and wasn't what I expected, you know, that morning. We're often very lot, lot going on here in the country. You know, right now, a lot of challenges we're facing. And we have a president that clearly focuses on the wrong thing. And we put out a video which was, you know, basically talking about people's lawful and constitutional responsibilities. And his response is, we should be executed.
- [01:41]
A
Let's talk about the video. So the video, it's you and a number of other lawmakers, including Senator Slotin. You're reminding people in the armed services that they do not legally have to obey an unlawful order.
- [01:52]
B
This administration is pitting our uniform military and intelligence community professionals, American citizens like us. You all swore an oath to protect and defend this Constitution. Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution. We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a public servant. But whether you're serving in the CIA, the army, or Navy, the Air Force, your vigilance is critical.
- [02:29]
A
What was the impetus for that video? Was there something you had seen or was this a project that you had been thinking about? Why put it out at that point?
- [02:37]
B
Well, the president has sent troops to U.S. cities recently. A judge said that deployment to Los Angeles was illegal prior to that, in his first administration, he's talked about shooting protesters in the legs. You know, ask that question of his secretary of defense. So you can see how he has a, you know, predisposition to overstep his authority and, you know, legal standing to do things as commander in chief. So we've been talking about this for a while. We had previously put out another video. The was six or eight of us who have served in the, in, either in the US Military or in the intelligence community. And we thought this was an appropriate time just to remind people, remind them of their responsibility under the Constitution, under the oaths that they took to serve in the military. I spent 25 years in the United States Navy. I took that oath. And, you know, sometimes you're just taught about it on day one of basic training, or you, if you're go through ROTC or the academy, you get it in a class, not a lot of refresher classes on this. So we felt it was important to tell people that if there is a illegal order, not only, Sam, as you said, that they don't have to, there's actually a lawful responsibility not to follow illegal orders.
- [04:03]
A
So you put out the video and then before even Trump jumps on it, obviously you have people like Stephen Miller making a big thing of it, saying it's seditious. Ironically, you're just saying, follow the law. He's saying that's seditious. At what point did you realize that it was becoming a point of contention for the White House and that they were gonna blow this up politically?
- [04:22]
B
Not until they blow it up, but obvious, you know, this week, with all the Jeffrey Epstein stuff in the vote the day before, nearly unanimous unanimously in the United States Congress, just one House member voting against releasing the Epstein files. They don't like talking about that. So it feels to me that they needed something else to talk about that was going to get a lot of attention and suck the oxygen out of the room and away from Jeffrey Epstein. So the President leads into this, says something very provocative. He's done this before. Right.
- [04:56]
A
Well, so I, I struggle with that. I do struggle with that because I, I do think you're right. Like, this is in some ways bait to switch the topic. You know, here we are talking about it, and I actually don't feel so bad about it because I do think when the President posts that members of the opposition party should be tried and hanged for treason. That's, you know, you have to cover that as a news person. But I, but you, you bring up an interesting point. Like, do you think this is a distraction? Do you think he's throwing out bait for people?
- [05:22]
B
Yeah, I think he's trying to just distract from other things. I think his statement also shows the, you know, the very, the rationale for why we were compelled to say this. So his response to us telling members of the military that they do not and should not comply with illegal orders is for him to suggest, to do something to us which is illegal, murder us. That's his reaction. I think this is all part of his overall, the way he comports himself and the way he has acted during his presidency to look for opportunities basically every day to figure out how do we further divide the American people. If it was any other president, let me tell you what, what he should have done or what George Bush would have done, or Barack Obama or Joe Biden or any other president, if they would have said anything, their message probably would have been, of course, of course members of the military shouldn't follow illegal orders. But this president can't bring himself to do that because, you know, like I said, I think he is constantly trying to drive a wedge, you know, right down through the center of our country.
- [06:48]
A
I would, I would think that the president would say, of course they shouldn't follow legal orders, but of course, I would never issue them. And he did not. He didn't say he could say that. He did.
- [06:59]
B
He did not say that.
- [07:00]
A
We'll give him time. One thing he did say is he went on Fox News Radio, Brian Kilmetra today, people were interpreting.
- [07:08]
B
There's a thread and there's security.
- [07:09]
C
I'm not threatening them, but I think there is serious trouble. I would say they're in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trouble. In the old days, it was death.
- [07:19]
B
Do you worry, Mr. President?
- [07:21]
C
Seditious behavior.
- [07:22]
A
Do you worry?
- [07:23]
C
It's a big deal.
- [07:24]
B
Do you worry?
- [07:24]
C
You know, nothing's a big deal. Today's a different world, okay? It's a softer mic. It's a meeker, milder world. But I will say this. I think what they did is really bad. The hatred is pretty strong. But what, what, what they say, you know, essentially don't follow the orders of the President of the United States. So to the military, do you worry.
- [07:49]
B
That some of your guys are going.
- [07:50]
C
To say no, Young Privates and young corporals and young sergeants. And they're not scholars necessarily. There might be a few, frankly, but they're not scholars. They don't, you know, study the Constitution, et cetera, et cetera. They know that. So these are people. These are bad people. These are people that, in my opinion, broke the law. Now, what happens to them, I can't tell you, but they broke the law. That is a terrible statement. I can say if I ever said that and there were a Democrat as president, all hell would have broken loose. And it has broken loose. I have had more calls from people, even Democrats, saying what a horrible thing that was.
- [08:31]
A
I don't know. How do you feel about that?
- [08:32]
B
Well, I don't think the President understands the law. I. I suspect he has never read the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He should. He's the Commander in chief. He should take a look at it.
- [08:45]
A
Did you get. Well, let's talk in the abstract and then let's talk specific. Obviously, there's a heightened level of stress, anxiety, and political threats faced by lawmakers like yourself. How tangibly is different now than it was even four or five years ago? And secondarily, I want to know, have you had any specific threats since the President started tweeting or posting that you had committed seditious behavior and should be, you know, hung to death?
- [09:17]
B
Well, a couple things on that is I'm no stranger to political violence. My wife, Gabby, 14. Yeah. 14 years ago, was at a political event. Would be assassin shows, shows up, murders six people, shoots 12 others, including her. She's shot in the head. Faces a lifetime of disability because of it. She's got aphasia. Right side of her body's paralyzed. She's got limited vision to the right side. It will affect the rest of her life. She nearly died.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, I covered it in real time. It's horrible.
- [09:52]
B
Because of political violence. This president, somebody tried to kill him twice. He should understand as much as anybody that his words really matter more so than anybody else in this country. He's the President of the United States. People listen. He's got the bully pulpit. He's got a voice, and people react to that. And there are crazy people out there that will react to those words. Have we gotten specific, you know, threats? I haven't looked at all of them yet. My staff is dealing with them. We get a lot of phone calls every single week about all different kinds of options. I do know we've had a lot of input on this. We've had, you know, folks that have given Threatening, you know, messages. I don't know if anybody's actually crossed the line where they're going to get the FBI, you know, at their door. And even if we did, I probably, you know, wouldn't, I generally don't share, you know, share that stuff that's related to security. But I will say, I mean, the, the threat goes up for all of us. It's not just me and the five people in that video. When the president acts this way, it makes it less safe for all Americans.
- [11:12]
A
I have two more questions for you. One, actually, and I hope you don't mind me asking because I was going to talk about your wife and her experience a little bit. Does she, do you two ever talk about the dangers now associated with being in public service and being in the arena to the extent you are? Have you had conversations along the lines of, well, you know, maybe is it worth speaking out in this way or do you not talk about that stuff?
- [11:34]
B
We talk about it, talk about it a lot. She is, she is well aware of the consequences of doing this work, more so than, I'd say, pretty much anybody in this country. Yeah, right. She survived a horrific attempt on her life. And I could, I'll tell you this, she is not going to back down. You know, she loves this country, as I do. We are going to, you know, fight for the Constitution and for all Americans and we're going to work to try to bring this country together and make this the best place in the world to live, even when we're up against what I feel like right now is a lot of challenges and headwinds. We're not giving up. We're not going anywhere. Donald Trump is not going to intimidate me or make me back down. What he said this morning on the radio, insignificant. What we did was patriotic. There is nothing more patriotic than standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution. I hope that one day Donald Trump learns that.
- [12:41]
A
And last question, which is a little bit of a off topic, actually quite off topic, but it's in the news. There's a rapidly moving peace plan proposal. I put peace in quotations because it looks to be extremely one sided. The Ukrainians President Oslinski today basically said we are being forced to choose between our dignity and the future of a US Ukraine alliance because it's been communicated to him that the US Position is take the plan or by Thanksgiving we will withdraw our support for Ukraine. Are you, you are closely monitoring stuff, obviously, as part of your job. But what is your initial take on what's actually transpiring here.
- [13:19]
B
I haven't looked at all the details yet. I was just on the phone with Senator Chris Coons, who's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator from Delaware. He's up in Halifax at the security conference right now. This is a topic of discussion there. I'll be briefed in details on it. Giving up all of Donbass, reducing the size of the Ukrainian military, saying you're not going to ever join NATO, and having NATO say that Ukraine will never be part of NATO. This is all the stuff that Putin wants. This is Putin's deal. This is not a negotiated settlement by anybody. And Donald Trump, I mean, how many times has he done a. 180 on Ukraine and he's threatening to take away intelligence support, material support and combat power? I think it is a at the surface, I haven't looked at the details yet, but my initial reaction is this is a really bad deal.
- [14:16]
A
Yeah. Well, we'll see what the, what Zelensky ends up doing with it. And please keep us posted as you get briefed and all that stuff. Senator Mark Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it and glad luck out there.
- [14:25]
B
Thank you, Sam.