Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – “How Sen. Mark Kelly Learned Trump Wanted Him ‘Executed’”

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: Sam Stein (The Bulwark)
Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (Arizona)
Date: November 22, 2025

Main Theme

In this episode, Sam Stein interviews Senator Mark Kelly about former President Donald Trump’s recent threats against him and other lawmakers, most notably a Truth Social post suggesting they should be “tried and hanged” for treason. The episode examines how Kelly learned of these threats, the context behind a video he and other lawmakers released reminding military personnel of their duty not to carry out illegal orders, and the broader implications for political discourse, safety, and the rule of law in the US.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Senator Kelly Learned About Trump’s Threat (00:00–01:40)

• Discovery:
  Senator Kelly learned of Trump’s post while in a secure facility (SCIF) with Rep. Alyssa Slotkin. Staff brought in paper notes summarizing Trump’s Truth Social threats, including a direct suggestion of execution.

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 00:33):
    “She comes back later, and she says, oh, yeah, he also threatened to have you executed. So, yeah, I found out from Senator Slotkin and wasn't what I expected, you know, that morning.”

• Initial Reaction:
  Shocked and disturbed, Kelly criticized Trump’s focus on revenge over governance.

2. The Rationale Behind the Video on Lawful Orders (01:40–04:02)

• Purpose:
  Kelly and other lawmakers issued a video reminding military personnel that they must refuse illegal orders, referencing US law and constitutional obligations.

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 01:51):
    “Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.”

• Background:
  The video was prompted by concerns over Trump’s tendency to overstep presidential authority, including sending troops into US cities and previously discussing illegal tactics with his defense secretary.

  • Kelly acknowledged the importance of periodic reminders for the armed services on this topic due to their constitutional oaths.

3. Political Backlash and Accusations of Sedition (04:02–06:47)

• Initial Response:
  Before Trump reacted, his allies (notably Stephen Miller) called the video “seditious,” despite its clear message to follow the law. Kelly points out the irony and political motivations behind such accusations.

• Diversion Tactics:
  Kelly suspects Trump used this controversy to distract from uncomfortable political stories (e.g., Congressional moves regarding Jeffrey Epstein’s files).

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 05:22):
    “I think he's trying to just distract from other things. I think his statement also shows...the rationale for why we were compelled to say this.”

• Presidential Comparison:
  Kelly contrasts Trump’s conduct with previous presidents, arguing any other would recognize the importance of refusing unlawful orders rather than attacking those who express it.

4. Trump’s Public Remarks and Their Impact (06:47–08:31)

• Trump’s Comments:
  Stein quotes Trump from a Fox News Radio interview, where Trump denies threatening death but reminisces about an era when sedition “was death,” and insists Kelly and peers “broke the law.”

  • Quote (Trump, 07:09–07:23):
    “I'm not threatening them, but I think there is serious trouble. I would say they're in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trouble. In the old days, it was death.”

• Kelly’s Response:
  Kelly rebukes Trump’s ignorance of military law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 08:32):
    “I don't think the President understands the law. I suspect he has never read the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He should. He's the Commander in chief. He should take a look at it.”

5. The Reality and Dangers of Political Threats (08:31–11:11)

• Threat Environment:
  Kelly discusses the escalation of threats faced by public officials, drawing from personal experience with the 2011 attempt on his wife, Gabby Giffords.

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 09:17):
    “My wife, Gabby...would be assassin shows up, murders six people, shoots 12 others, including her. She's shot in the head...faces a lifetime of disability because of it.”

  • Emphasizes that presidential rhetoric can incite violence and increase the risk for all public servants, not just those directly targeted.

• Current Threats:
  While his staff handles ongoing threats, Kelly acknowledges an uptick in menacing messages post-Trump’s comments but refrains from specifics for security reasons.

6. Personal Resilience and Family Conversations (11:11–12:41)

• Discussing Risks with Gabby Giffords:
  Stein asks about their private conversations on safety and public service. Kelly emphasizes that both he and his wife remain undeterred by threats.

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 11:34):
    “She is not going to back down. You know, she loves this country, as I do...We're not giving up. We're not going anywhere. Donald Trump is not going to intimidate me or make me back down.”

  • He frames their stance as patriotic: “There is nothing more patriotic than standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution.”

7. Brief Discussion on Ukraine Peace Plan (12:41–14:25)

• Context:
  Stein notes a US push for Ukraine to accept a one-sided peace plan, effectively demanding they surrender core interests.

• Kelly’s Take:
  Cautiously critical, Kelly hadn’t yet read the details but interprets the plan as capitulating to Russian demands, calling it “a really bad deal.”

  • Quote (Mark Kelly, 13:18):
    “Giving up all of Donbass, reducing the size of the Ukrainian military, saying you're not going to ever join NATO...This is Putin's deal. This is not a negotiated settlement by anybody.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Mark Kelly (00:33):
  “She says, oh, yeah, he also threatened to have you executed. So, yeah, I found out from Senator Slotkin and wasn't what I expected, you know, that morning.”

• Senator Mark Kelly (01:51):
  “You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.”

• Sam Stein (06:47):
  “I would, I would think that the president would say, of course they shouldn't follow legal orders, but of course, I would never issue them. And he did not.”

• Donald Trump (07:09–07:23):
  “I'm not threatening them, but I think there is serious trouble. I would say they're in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trouble. In the old days, it was death.”

• Senator Mark Kelly (11:34):
  “We are going to… fight for the Constitution and for all Americans and we're going to work to try to bring this country together… Donald Trump is not going to intimidate me or make me back down.”

Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|--------------| | How Kelly Found Out About the Threat | 00:33–01:40 | | Military Law Video and Reasons Behind It | 01:40–04:02 | | Political Reaction, Accusations of Sedition | 04:02–06:47 | | Trump’s Radio Remarks Recapped | 07:00–08:31 | | Kelly Reflects on Political Violence | 09:17–11:11 | | Conversations with Gabby Giffords on Danger | 11:11–12:41 | | US–Ukraine Peace Plan Brief Discussion | 12:41–14:25 |

Tone and Takeaway

The conversation is somber, direct, and heavy with concern about the state of American political discourse, presidential responsibility, and the physical safety of public servants. Senator Kelly strikes a balance between gravity (regarding the threats) and patriotism, insisting that his advocacy for constitutional norms is both lawful and necessary—while remaining undaunted despite personal risk.

For listeners and readers, the episode highlights the direct link between rhetoric at the top of American politics and real-world security concerns, the enduring need for adherence to constitutional principles, and the resilience of those willing to stand up for the rule of law.