Bulwark Takes: "I Started to Die." Trump Talks "White Genocide" With South African President in the Oval Office

Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, host Ben Parker delves into the controversial Oval Office meeting between former President Donald Trump and Cyril Ramaphosa, the President of South Africa. The discussion, enriched by insights from Holly Berkeley Fletcher, a seasoned Africa analyst and former CIA analyst, unpacks the complexities surrounding Trump's assertion of a "white genocide" in South Africa and the broader implications for international diplomacy and South African politics.

1. Introduction and Context

Ben Parker (00:00): Opens the episode expressing shock over Trump's meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa. Introduces Holly Berkeley Fletcher to provide expert analysis on African politics.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (00:42): Light-heartedly claims the title "President of Africa," setting a candid tone for the discussion.

2. The Oval Office Meeting: Initial Impressions

Ben Parker (00:55): Summarizes Trump's initial praise for Africa's land value, hinting at underlying economic motivations.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (01:16): Highlights Trump's vague statements about death and land in Africa, setting the stage for deeper analysis.

Discussion Points:

• Economic Agendas: South Africa's struggles with tariffs under Trump's administration and the impending expiration of the African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA).
• White Farmers' Narrative: Exploration of Trump's focus on the narrative of white farmers being murdered, which Fletcher deems unhelpful to South Africa's economic goals.

3. Diplomatic Maneuvers and the White Genocide Claim

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (02:00): Assesses the meeting as a "pretty good salvage job" despite its contentious nature. Explains Ramaphosa's primary agenda focused on economic assistance and stabilizing trade relations.

Ben Parker (03:36): Describes Trump's initial positive remarks about South Africa, including his compliments on the White House's redecorations and introductions of South African golfers, indicating a calculated diplomatic effort.

Key Exchange on White Genocide:

• Ramaphosa (04:19): Responds to the "white genocide" claim by emphasizing the need for Trump to listen to the voices of South Africans. States, "It will take President Trump listen to that well to the voices of South Africans..." (04:37).

• Natalie Harp (05:22): Interrupts with references to stories and documentaries supporting the genocide narrative, highlighting the spokesperson's role in propagating Trump's stance.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (05:54): Expresses personal distress over the disturbing visuals shown during the meeting, illustrating the emotional toll of the discussion.

4. South Africa's Political Landscape and Response

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (06:43): Critiques the portrayal of white farmers' plight, emphasizing that the majority of victims are poor black farm workers. Highlights the resilience of South Africa's democracy despite internal challenges.

John Steenhuisen's Statement (07:52): The Minister of Agriculture articulates the coalition between the Democratic Alliance (DA) and the African National Congress (ANC) to exclude extremist parties from power. "We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions..." (07:52).

Analysis:

• Political Coalitions: The DA-ANC alliance is portrayed as a strategic move to maintain democratic stability and address economic issues without succumbing to extremist pressures.
• Condemnation of Extremism: Steenhuisen emphasizes the importance of keeping "fringe wackadoo weirdos" out of government, reinforcing the commitment to a stable, multi-party democracy.

5. The “White Genocide” Misinformation

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (11:02): Discusses the falsehood of Trump’s claims, debunking the narrative of a targeted genocide against white farmers. Clarifies that crime predominantly affects poor black communities, not white farmers.

Ben Parker (22:00): Questions the origins of Trump's genocide claims, seeking Fletcher's expertise on the misinformation's roots.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (22:11): Traces the narrative back to the Afro Forum, a far-right Afrikaner lobbying group in South Africa. Explains how their collaboration with Fox News personalities like Tucker Carlson fueled Trump's unfounded claims. "It was his first public utterance on any African nation spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda..." (22:35).

Key Insights:

• Media Influence: The role of Fox News and specific personalities in propagating extremist narratives.
• Political Opportunism: How far-right lobbying groups exploit political opportunities to advance their agendas.

6. South Africa’s Socio-Economic Challenges

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (18:47): Expounds on South Africa's profound income inequality, a legacy of apartheid. Highlights stark disparities in unemployment rates between black (40%) and white (1%) populations.

Key Points:

• Economic Inequality: The sustained economic divide fuels social unrest and crime.
• Crime Dynamics: Most violent crime occurs in impoverished black townships, often controlled by gangs akin to Latin American cartels.
• Policing Issues: Corruption and inefficiency within South Africa's police force exacerbate security problems.

Conclusion on Genocide Claims:

• Privilege of Whites: Contrary to Trump's assertions, white South Africans remain a privileged class, with the majority of crime victimization occurring among poor black communities.

7. Diplomatic Aftermath and Future Implications

Ben Parker (24:24): References Fletcher’s article on South Africa's resilience in handling Trump's provocations, praising their stable democracy.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (24:24): Agrees, underscoring South Africa's ability to navigate complex political landscapes without succumbing to authoritarianism.

Final Thoughts:

• Strategic Diplomacy: Ramaphosa’s decision to include white allies and present a united front against extremist narratives is lauded as a shrewd diplomatic strategy.
• Potential Outcomes: While Trump’s fixation on the "white genocide" narrative creates diplomatic tension, South Africa's robust democratic institutions offer hope for sustained stability and progress.

8. Notable Quotes

• Cyril Ramaphosa (04:37): "It will take President Trump listen to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here."

• John Steenhuisen (07:52): "We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions."

• Holly Berkeley Fletcher (05:54): "This is when I started to die inside."

• Holly Berkeley Fletcher (22:35): "It was his first public utterance on any African nation spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda..."

9. Conclusion

Ben Parker and Holly Berkeley Fletcher provide a comprehensive analysis of the fraught meeting between Trump and Ramaphosa, dissecting the unfounded claims of "white genocide" and highlighting South Africa's ongoing struggles with economic inequality and crime. The episode underscores the importance of informed diplomacy and the dangers of misinformation propagated by extremist groups. South Africa's resilient democracy and strategic political maneuvers offer a compelling narrative of hope amidst adversity, serving as a critical case study for international relations and the fight against racialized propaganda.

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