"I Started to Die." Trump Talks "White Genocide" With South African President in the Oval Office

Summary

Bulwark Takes: "I Started to Die." Trump Talks "White Genocide" With South African President in the Oval Office

Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, host Ben Parker delves into the controversial Oval Office meeting between former President Donald Trump and Cyril Ramaphosa, the President of South Africa. The discussion, enriched by insights from Holly Berkeley Fletcher, a seasoned Africa analyst and former CIA analyst, unpacks the complexities surrounding Trump's assertion of a "white genocide" in South Africa and the broader implications for international diplomacy and South African politics.

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1. Introduction and Context

Ben Parker (00:00): Opens the episode expressing shock over Trump's meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa. Introduces Holly Berkeley Fletcher to provide expert analysis on African politics.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (00:42): Light-heartedly claims the title "President of Africa," setting a candid tone for the discussion.

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2. The Oval Office Meeting: Initial Impressions

Ben Parker (00:55): Summarizes Trump's initial praise for Africa's land value, hinting at underlying economic motivations.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (01:16): Highlights Trump's vague statements about death and land in Africa, setting the stage for deeper analysis.

Discussion Points:

• Economic Agendas: South Africa's struggles with tariffs under Trump's administration and the impending expiration of the African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA).
• White Farmers' Narrative: Exploration of Trump's focus on the narrative of white farmers being murdered, which Fletcher deems unhelpful to South Africa's economic goals.

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3. Diplomatic Maneuvers and the White Genocide Claim

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (02:00): Assesses the meeting as a "pretty good salvage job" despite its contentious nature. Explains Ramaphosa's primary agenda focused on economic assistance and stabilizing trade relations.

Ben Parker (03:36): Describes Trump's initial positive remarks about South Africa, including his compliments on the White House's redecorations and introductions of South African golfers, indicating a calculated diplomatic effort.

Key Exchange on White Genocide:

• Ramaphosa (04:19): Responds to the "white genocide" claim by emphasizing the need for Trump to listen to the voices of South Africans. States, "It will take President Trump listen to that well to the voices of South Africans..." (04:37).

• Natalie Harp (05:22): Interrupts with references to stories and documentaries supporting the genocide narrative, highlighting the spokesperson's role in propagating Trump's stance.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (05:54): Expresses personal distress over the disturbing visuals shown during the meeting, illustrating the emotional toll of the discussion.

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4. South Africa's Political Landscape and Response

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (06:43): Critiques the portrayal of white farmers' plight, emphasizing that the majority of victims are poor black farm workers. Highlights the resilience of South Africa's democracy despite internal challenges.

John Steenhuisen's Statement (07:52): The Minister of Agriculture articulates the coalition between the Democratic Alliance (DA) and the African National Congress (ANC) to exclude extremist parties from power. "We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions..." (07:52).

Analysis:

• Political Coalitions: The DA-ANC alliance is portrayed as a strategic move to maintain democratic stability and address economic issues without succumbing to extremist pressures.
• Condemnation of Extremism: Steenhuisen emphasizes the importance of keeping "fringe wackadoo weirdos" out of government, reinforcing the commitment to a stable, multi-party democracy.

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5. The “White Genocide” Misinformation

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (11:02): Discusses the falsehood of Trump’s claims, debunking the narrative of a targeted genocide against white farmers. Clarifies that crime predominantly affects poor black communities, not white farmers.

Ben Parker (22:00): Questions the origins of Trump's genocide claims, seeking Fletcher's expertise on the misinformation's roots.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (22:11): Traces the narrative back to the Afro Forum, a far-right Afrikaner lobbying group in South Africa. Explains how their collaboration with Fox News personalities like Tucker Carlson fueled Trump's unfounded claims. "It was his first public utterance on any African nation spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda..." (22:35).

Key Insights:

• Media Influence: The role of Fox News and specific personalities in propagating extremist narratives.
• Political Opportunism: How far-right lobbying groups exploit political opportunities to advance their agendas.

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6. South Africa’s Socio-Economic Challenges

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (18:47): Expounds on South Africa's profound income inequality, a legacy of apartheid. Highlights stark disparities in unemployment rates between black (40%) and white (1%) populations.

Key Points:

• Economic Inequality: The sustained economic divide fuels social unrest and crime.
• Crime Dynamics: Most violent crime occurs in impoverished black townships, often controlled by gangs akin to Latin American cartels.
• Policing Issues: Corruption and inefficiency within South Africa's police force exacerbate security problems.

Conclusion on Genocide Claims:

• Privilege of Whites: Contrary to Trump's assertions, white South Africans remain a privileged class, with the majority of crime victimization occurring among poor black communities.

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7. Diplomatic Aftermath and Future Implications

Ben Parker (24:24): References Fletcher’s article on South Africa's resilience in handling Trump's provocations, praising their stable democracy.

Holly Berkeley Fletcher (24:24): Agrees, underscoring South Africa's ability to navigate complex political landscapes without succumbing to authoritarianism.

Final Thoughts:

• Strategic Diplomacy: Ramaphosa’s decision to include white allies and present a united front against extremist narratives is lauded as a shrewd diplomatic strategy.
• Potential Outcomes: While Trump’s fixation on the "white genocide" narrative creates diplomatic tension, South Africa's robust democratic institutions offer hope for sustained stability and progress.

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8. Notable Quotes

• Cyril Ramaphosa (04:37): "It will take President Trump listen to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here."

• John Steenhuisen (07:52): "We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions."

• Holly Berkeley Fletcher (05:54): "This is when I started to die inside."

• Holly Berkeley Fletcher (22:35): "It was his first public utterance on any African nation spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda..."

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9. Conclusion

Ben Parker and Holly Berkeley Fletcher provide a comprehensive analysis of the fraught meeting between Trump and Ramaphosa, dissecting the unfounded claims of "white genocide" and highlighting South Africa's ongoing struggles with economic inequality and crime. The episode underscores the importance of informed diplomacy and the dangers of misinformation propagated by extremist groups. South Africa's resilient democracy and strategic political maneuvers offer a compelling narrative of hope amidst adversity, serving as a critical case study for international relations and the fight against racialized propaganda.

For more in-depth discussions and expert analyses, subscribe to Bulwark Takes and join the conversation on current global affairs.

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Transcript

[Ben Parker]

Well, I don't know what just happened. Ben Parker from the Bulwark. President Trump just had an Oval Office meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa, and wow is all I can say. Just wow. Here to try to make sense of what just happened is a friend of the Bulwark, Holly Berkeley Fletcher, who was not only raised in Kenya, but is also was an Africa analyst for the CIA for a very long time and knows more about African politics than I will ever forget. So, first question, based on that bonkers Oval Office meeting, Holly, who is the President of Africa?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

The President of Africa. I think that's me. I think I'm the President of Africa. I mean, if it's an open job, I'll take it. Right. Do I get free travel and free wine? I've brought some South African wine here.

[Ben Parker]

I'm just looking at my notes here. And the President repeatedly said that he had a great meeting with Africa. And he said, referring to Africa, a lot of countries don't have the land value that you have. So that's a great way to start out.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

That's what I made out of all of that. But I heard lots of. There's a lot of death in Africa, and I heard that there's a lot of actually valuable land in Africa.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. So this was a meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa, the President of South Africa, which is actually a country.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

It's a country. A good. A real country for real democracy.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, Holly. I mean, we're going to get into some of the clips. Yeah. We're going to talk a lot about South African whites. Not the. Not the varietal you happen to have there. The other kind of South Africans.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

Like, what the hell just happened? Was that a train wreck? Was that actually kind of good?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Okay, so let me just say from the South African standpoint that I think. I think it. I think this is actually. I wouldn't call it. It was not a triumph, but it was a pretty good salvage job. The background to this meeting is apparently as they discussed in the meeting, that Ramaphosa contacted Trump and asked to come. And because of all of the nonsense that has been going on and the trade situation they. South Africa obviously is facing, I don't. I can't keep track of the current tariff level, but at one point, they were one of the most tariffed countries in the world under Trump's new regime. And I think they're still in great peril from. From whatever tariffs he's going to slap on them. They're also facing agoa, the African growth and opportunity act, which they have benefited from since that program started in 2000. That is programs expiring this year. And they're wanting to re up that. They've lost a lot of PEP farm money. They're looking for health assistance. Yeah. So they, they have a big economic agenda. And this whole narrative, this whole narrative of white farmers being murdered is. Is not helpful to what they're wanting to accomplish. So he asked for the meeting, and I think he. Well, I know he, he. I mean, he has a reputation of a very charming, gregarious guy that, and that those qualities have served him incredibly well over the years.

[Ben Parker]

He started off really strong. I mean, he started off the meeting with Trump talking about how you invented the G20. The G20 meeting is in South Africa later this year, maybe the United States. Right. Golf. He brought along some south golfers. Right. I don't know how Trump is on Mandela. I don't know. But in terms of talking to Trump, he complimented the way the White House has been redecorated. And it seems like a really canny diplomatic effort to get Trump on side.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

That's classic Ramaphosa. And the best thing he did was bring white friends with him.

[Ben Parker]

And then, as you said, inevitably, I guess, the topic of white genocide came up and, well, here's what happened.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

What would it take from you for you to be convinced that there's no white genocide in South Africa?

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

Well, I can answer that for the president. For him. No, seriously, I'd rather have him. I don't know the answer.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Our president will respond to you.

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

Thank you, Mr. President. It will take President Trump listen that well to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here. When we have talks between us on the quiet, around a quiet table, it will take President Trump to listen to them. I'm not going to be repeating what I've been saying. I would say if there was Africana farmer genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

He brought whites with them.

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

My Minister of Agriculture, he would not be with me. So it will take him. President Trump, listening to their stories, to their perspectives. Perspective.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

He is more inclined to list the white people.

[Natalie Harp]

But, Mr. President, I must say that we have. No, no, wait. We have thousands of stories talking about it, and we have documentaries, we have news stories. And that.

[Ben Parker]

I think this is Natalie Harp, the human printer, prints out tweets and stuff for him. Yeah, I think that's who that is.

[Natalie Harp]

I would. I just. I have to. It has to be responded to. Let me See the articles, please, if you would. And turn. Excuse me. Turn the lights, turn the lights down. And just.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

This is when I started to die inside.

[Ben Parker]

This is when you cracked open the.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah, this is when I just started to die.

[Ben Parker]

So there is a, there's a TV set up there, they're showing.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Oh, I didn't see that view. Okay, so that's Malema. That is a fringe, fringe crazy guy who is in parliament and he's actually been reprimanded by the South African. They have kind of a speech policing body, like hate speech. He's been reprimanded several times for his hate speech. Yeah, and that video went on forever. And I just, a long time I thought I wasn't gonna make it through, so I had to locate a bowl to throw up in.

[Ben Parker]

So, you know, we were, we were texting you and I throughout this whole thing as it was happening. And you were saying, this is like showing footage of a KKK rally to Trump and saying, why does this happen in your country or the Proud Boys?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Even though Trump connected to the Proud Boys.

[Ben Parker]

This is what I was saying is that like, is that Rama poses and says, that's not me, that's not us. Those people are fringe wackadoo weirdos and have nothing to do with our government. I'm not sure Trump would say that. Right. But actually this, this, this is a moment that actually a couple moments that made me very proud because Ramaphosa and he, I didn't miss his name. The name of the Agriculture minister, John Steenhusen, John Stinghusen actually said things that were very powerful and beautiful about multi party democracy and everyone being able to express themselves. And just because someone has a party and says some nutsy things, doesn't mean they are actually expressing the policy of the government. And the AG Minister explained how his party has been an opponent of Ramaphosa's party for 30 years. But to keep those whack jobs out of government and to maintain the democracy, they joined together, these two opposing forces. Ah, beautiful.

[John Steenhuisen]

Imagine the two individuals that are in that video that you've seen are both leaders of opposition minority parties in South Africa. Nkonto with Sizwe under Mr. Zuma and Economic Freedom Fighters under Mr. Malema. Now, the reason that my party, the Democratic alliance, which has been an opposition party for over 30 years, chose to join hands with Mr. Ramaphosa's party was precise. To keep those people out of power. We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions. That is why after 30 years of us exchanging barbs across the floor in Parliament and trying to get one over on each other. We've decided to join hands precisely to keep that lot out of government because the day they get in to the doors of the Union buildings in South Africa or control of our parliament, that's what you're going to see. And that is why this government working together needs the support of our allies around the world so that we can strengthen our hand, grow our economy and shut the door forever on that rebel getting through the doors of the Union bodies.

[Ben Parker]

And all I could think was do they not know who they're talking to?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah, yeah, well I mean they know who they're talking to but they can't spell that out of course. So it's not who they're talking to very well because they had a called Jacob Zuma, he was their president for a number of years and just about destroyed the country. I wrote an article about this on the Bulwark. The huge economic. He's hugely corrupt. Had a state capture, much like we've seen where he invited some wealthy businessmen who basically ran the South African government for kickbacks which they shared with him. He assaulted all out assault on multiple institutions of state. So they had a Trump, his name was Zuma and his party, the anc, the ruling party still in coalition now got rid of him. It was delayed. They finally kicked him to the curb and then Ramaphosa outmaneuvered his ex wife who was wanting to succeed Zuma and to win the South African presidency. And so then Zuma formed his own party, one of these radical fringe parties that they showed in those clips. I believe that's the other radical fringe party. He formed his own party. And yeah, so the da, this white majority, white, it's not all white center right party, joined the anc, which is just unheard of last year in order to sideline permanently, hopefully, fingers crossed, Jacob Zuma and then Julius Malema who's long been a fringe character. And of course there's some far right white racist avocaner parties as well. So it's a centrist coalition. The ANC itself is a coalition of all kinds of different people from business types to trade unionists. It's a little unwieldy actually. So yeah, no, they, they democracy explained to Trump which he needs.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. And it was a beautiful thing to see as an American to see, you know, other people explaining things like how a constitution and you know, inalienable human rights work.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

He did that another time with regards to the land issue.

[Ben Parker]

That's Right. That's right. But Trump wasn't having any of it.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

No.

[Ben Parker]

And instead, he just stuck on the white genocide thing, and this happened.

[Natalie Harp]

Now, this is very bad. These are burial sites right here. Burial sites. Over a thousand of white folks, farmers. And those cars are lined up to pay love on a Sunday morning. Each one of those white things you see is a cross. And there's approximately a thousand of them. They're all white farmers. The family of white farmers. And those cars aren't driving. They're stopped there to pay respects to their family member who was killed. And it's a terrible sight. I've never seen anything like it. Both sides of the road, you have crosses.

[Ben Parker]

This next exchange between them is fascinating.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Poor guy, he's like straining. What the hell is this?

[Natalie Harp]

Those people were all killed.

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

Have they told you where that is, Mr. President? No, I'd like to know where that is.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Same.

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

This I've never seen.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Same.

[Ben Parker]

Okay.

[Natalie Harp]

I mean, it's in South Africa.

[Ben Parker]

Sure.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

Do you have any idea what it is? I mean, it could be Southern California.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

I don't know. Honestly. It could even be something like, from COVID you know, like all the COVID does. I do not. I have never heard of white. Of mass graves of white farmers. I don't think there's enough. I haven't looked at the crime statistics in terms of how many white farmers are killed every year, but I don't think it would. I mean, I could. I could be wrong, but I just. I have no idea what that is. It could be anything. It could be a whole nother country. It could be.

[Ben Parker]

We have no idea.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah. And Ramaphosa was very confused on it. I. I mean, okay, props to Ramaphosa. He sat there. Clearly he was doing breathing exercises. He needed. He needed to sell African white to make it through that, because that was an ambush. They were trying to bait him. They were trying to. You know, it was like another Zelinsky thing.

[Ben Parker]

Exactly right.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

And I think Ramaphosa, and I don't think Ramaphosa expected this at all. I think he really was caught off guard. And it went on and on and on. And you can tell he was visibly uncomfortable, he was visibly upset, but he just. He sat there calmly and sort of let it. Let it pass. And then, you know, I. By the end of the meeting, I think they did recover, because then the white people spoke, and then Trump really perked up and started to listen when the white people spoke.

[Ben Parker]

And that was a clever move by Ramaphosa to let his agriculture minister, who is white speak. And then also to let the white.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Golfers talk really had authority. They're the ones they really listened to. Yeah, the white golfers. Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

You know, some of that. Some of them. Some of them had better messages than others. But Trump was just clearly elated to have the golfers there. And to me, like, if you don't.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Believe Trump is a stone cold racist, like, look, if you watch this whole thing, look at his demeanor to Ramaphosa and how he treats him. He doesn't even let him respond half the time. He interrupts him, he cuts him off. He doesn't even give him any space. And he lets the white people go on and on and on, even though they're saying things that he doesn't want to hear either. They're contradicting his line just as strongly, if not even more strongly, because they're given the opportunity than Ramaphosa. And Trump actually listened. And I think maybe they did some good. I don't know. We'll find out.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it. Okay, can we talk about some of the atmospherics here? Did you notice who was sitting and standing right near Trump?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

It was. I was. I saw J.D. and then I saw Mr. You know, makeup, studio peak headset.

[Ben Parker]

Pete Hegseth was there.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Secretary of Defense, Fabulous.

[Ben Parker]

Stephen Miller. Hair not looking so fabulous.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Stephen Miller.

[Ben Parker]

He was standing behind the couch. Did you catch who wasn't there?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Marco Rubio.

[Ben Parker]

Absent.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Well, maybe he was tired from the thrashing he got on Capitol Hill yesterday.

[Ben Parker]

Perhaps. Yeah. Interesting that he wasn't there. Elon Musk was there. And Trump kind of not berated. That's too strong a word. But kind of. Kind of shot a few arrows Musk's way said, you know, of course Musk's from South Africa, but I don't want him involved in something else. It's the last thing he needs. Yikes. Musk is not in favor of Magaland. It's the one part that really amused me.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah. The South Africans had love for Starlink, though they've offered. In fact, they. So the South Africans did a few smart things, obviously, bringing white people and having them speak. Very smart.

[Ben Parker]

And golfers. Very smart.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Bringing the golfers, bringing a golf book. Apparently, at one point, Ramaphosa, you know, said he'd give him a plane if he had to. I hope you've got that clip ready to go.

[Natalie Harp]

So why did they give us a plane to the United States Air Force? That's what that idiot talks about after viewing a thing where thousands of people are dead.

[Cyril Ramaphosa]

I'm sorry I don't have a plane to give you.

[Natalie Harp]

I wish you did.

[Ben Parker]

I take it.

[Natalie Harp]

I would take it. If your country offered the United States Air Force a plane, I would take it.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

They reframed the debate in terms of crime and then immediately pivoted to, maybe we can get assistance from the US on crime, including Starlink, because the police stations and remote stations in these rural areas, that's one of the big factors in the crime against farmers, is because these farms are very remote and the security infrastructure is not there. So maybe they're thinking Starlink could enhance police communications and help them with security in rural areas. But that was very smart because obviously Elon is wanting to sell his Starlink to everybody in the world.

[Ben Parker]

And they reframed the crime issue in terms of illegal immigration. They said, oh, we've got yes over the border.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Which isn't true, actually. It's really not true. I was like. I told you in the text, I'm like, I disagree with this tact, but I understand. It's actually a smart.

[Ben Parker]

It's not true here either. It doesn't matter.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

Okay, so it seems like maybe this video they were showing was. You'll have to help me on the pronunciation here, Holly. The Witkrus Vitkruse monument.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

It would probably be Vit.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah, Vitkrus, or the Plasmord Monument, which is along a highway in South Africa. It's what, some. Thousands of white crosses, each representing. This is true. A victim, A person who was killed in a South African farm attack since 2004. But they are not specifically white people, as Trump said. They are all victims of farm attacks.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

And a lot of farm workers are killed as well. Black farm workers.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah. So in 20, earlier this year, Elon Musk falsely said they were two white victims. Some of them are two white victims, some of them are not. So I can only guess where Trump found this video and this false information about it. Who's to say? Really? Who's to say?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah. Let me, if I may, Ben, talk about crime a little bit.

[Ben Parker]

Yeah.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

So South Africa has the highest income inequality in the world. Number one in the world. There are. And obviously, it's a huge holdover from apartheid. If you. If you keep, you know, 80% of the population in oppressive economic conditions and allow 20% to own all the wealth, that creates a dynamic that is incredibly enduring and hard to correct. And it's only been 30 years, so the racial dynamics of the income inequality problem are really haven't changed very much. Since 1994. Which is, which is really, I think there's a lot of reasons for that. The government has tried, but it's just a very intractable problem because without. You can't take radical measures. They've avoided taking radical measures to avoid collapsing the economy. Right. So they've actually taken very moderate measures, which has angered a lot of poor blacks and sustained this terrible, racially tinged income inequality. Black unemployment is like 40%.

[Ben Parker]

Whoa.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

White unemployment is only 1%. Okay. 89% of the unemployed are blacks in South Africa. So there's no opportunity. There is enduring massive inequality. They see, and they do see, there is a black middle class and wealthy class. And so they can see the rich, the rich are all around them. Black, poor, blacks are no longer, you know, put on reservations. They're out in the cities and mixing, and they can see this wealth, and they see that they have no opportunity. They are unemployed. And the anger is intense. And of course, it is fueled also by historical injustices as well. So the crime is very bad. It is very violent. You can. There's, it's a, there's a. There's. There's definite anger there. But the majority of victims are black, are poor blacks in the. In this, what we would call a slum in these townships. The older golfer mentioned the Cape Flats, which is a slum in Cape Town, which is, by the way, is pretty contained. Like, I've spent a lot of time in Cape Town. I have family that live in Cape Town, and I've never felt unsafe. You know, there you have to be, you know, you have to sort of stay on your guard. But most of crime is contained in these poor, poor areas. And in those areas, violent gangs, like run the show. It's a lot like the cartels in Latin America, actually. They mentioned that. So the vast majority of the crime is, you know, poor blacks are the victims. There is a problem with policing. There is a problem with police corruption. There's a lot of layers of dysfunction in South Africa. But the idea that white farmers are being targeted by the government for racial reasons and that their farms are being seized is just a lie. It is not true. Whites are incredibly privileged as a class in South Africa.

[Ben Parker]

So, Holly, let me ask you this. How did this come up? Why is it that Trump and the people around him think there is a genocide going on against white people in South Africa? Where did they get that idea?

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Well, I'll tell you from firsthand, because I was the analyst on South Africa when this all got started in his first term, there is a, well, you know, organized lobbying group, Afro Forum of. It's a. It's a very far right wing Afrikaner lobbying outfit and party. I think they have a political party in South Africa, too. They tend to be, you know, not that racially enlightened, shall we say. And they perpetuate exaggerated narratives around, around the world and in South Africa of white oppression to advance their cause. So when Trump came into office the first time, they saw an opportunity and there was a whole roadshow. They came to the United States, they met with people in Fox News, including Tucker Carlson. They met with people on the Hill. They probably have regular meetings on the Hill. Actually. They met, they had White House meetings. The Tucker meeting was particularly effective, however, because Trump watches Fox News 24 hours a day. And Tucker had a segment on the white genocide in South Africa. This was back in 2017, I want to say maybe 2018. It was around about that period of time. And Trump immediately went on Twitter. It was Twitter still then. And that was actually his first. I think it was his first public utterance on any African nation was spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda that he had heard from Tucker Carlson, that Tucker Carlson had gotten from Afro Forum. And so, yeah, he tweeted about it. It created a huge diplomatic incident. We've never had the best relationship with South Africa. We can talk more about that complicated relationship if you want to. And it was a big kerfuffle. And, yeah, that's. It goes back that far. And then Elon Musk has only fueled the fire, so. But it goes back that far.

[Ben Parker]

Well, you know, again, you wrote about this at a very interesting piece for the Bulwark about how South Africa had their own Trump and how they dealt with him better, but they've actually really avoided the worst of what can happen in the last few years. And it's a surprisingly resilient young democracy, which is great for them.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Yeah.

[Ben Parker]

And frankly, I'm a little bit jealous. Holly Berkeley Fletcher, thank you so much for joining me. You know, whatever the hell happens next, we'll have to talk more about it.

[Holly Berkeley Fletcher]

Cheers, Ben.

[Ben Parker]

Cheers. And thanks for watching this video. If you like the Bulwark, comment on the video, like the video, subscribe to the channel and come check out what we're doing@thebull work.com and become a Bulwark plus member. You won't regret it.