Andrew Egger (3:18)

I think, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have lucked out on this one because I think I quoted the relevant portion this morning. But I think it's not dead hamsters in the freezer. Right? Is that the thing you slipped in? It's like dead chicks.

Bubba Wallace (3:31)

Yes, it's dead chicks. Also, it was an emu, not an ostrich. I did too. But these are all functionally true things from the profile. Let's be honest here. These are essentially all true statements. The third one is actually, the third one is a lie. They had an emu, not an ostrich. She didn't like having dead chicks in the freezer. It wasn't hamsters. But for, for all intents and purposes, all of these statements are true, which just should give you a sense of how insane their life is.

Andrew Egger (4:01)

Yeah, that's a little taste of it. So let's, let's, let's back up a little bit. Cheryl Hines is a really interesting figure, at least to me, because I feel like for, among kind of like the, the, the HBO watching upwardly mobile liberal keyboard class set. She's just Larry David's wife on Curb youb Enthusiasm, right? And like, and on that show she is like a straight character, right? She, she's kind of the reasonable one. She's the one who is sort of the, the, the, the rock as, as he spirals out of control all the time. And, and so I think we're all kind of walking around with this picture of Cheryl Hines in our heads that is like perhaps unduly sort of reasonable and, and normal and kind of just like, you know, she wouldn't stand for, for the Nonsense. Although, although, even, even there she is married to Larry David. But, but so that. This is kind of what I was interested in. This, this profile is like, she's given all this access. She's given this, this, you know, these interviews to the Wall Street Journal. She's promoting her memoir that's going to be coming out here in a few months. And that's like, kind of what's going on, what's happening here. But I think a lot of people are interested in this profile because, like, what's it like to be sort of, like to just go from being sort of like a normal sort of Hollywood liberal by accident? By the way, I mean, she grew up kind of poor and like, really, really was successful in her career and, like, is a, is a cool, like, her personal story is cool in that way. Like, you grow up in a, in a trailer and then you're married to a Kennedy, you know, America, and yet there's so much weird stuff as well around the margins. And, and I think, like, I was interested going into this. Like, okay, how's she grappling with this? How's she grappling with, like, the next act of, of her sort of, like, Hollywood story of, of, you know, she's made it, she's successful on tv, she's famous, she's married to a Kennedy. And now all of a sudden it's like, wait, I'm a. I'm a maha icon or my husband's a maha icon, and all my old friends are sort of turning on me and I. What, what did you make of all of that? I mean, like, when, when you go into this profile, like, how do you, how do you read, like, her responses there?

Bubba Wallace (6:03)

It is. It is interesting because she is, you know, as you say, she plays Larry David's wife on tv, and that show kind of melds reality and fiction. Like, Larry David is playing a fictionalized version of himself. She's playing kind of a fictionalized version of Larry David's wife. And as you said, she is the straight, the straight woman on that, that show. She is the, the, the. The person that a lot of the humor bounces off of mostly in the first few seasons.

Andrew Egger (6:29)

Yeah, and this is, this is, you know, tricky for, for Cheryl Hines, the Hollywood actor, to navigate. Right. I mean, she's right in the middle of all of it. Right at the very beginning when he was kind of starting to run for president and stuff, she made a few sort of stabs at distancing herself. They get into this in the piece a little bit. The Piece talks about how Kennedy got in some hot water when he got in the race because he suggested that Holocaust victim Anne Frank had more freedom than Americans facing vaccine mandates. That's interesting. I'm sorry, I think that was a little bit before he got in the, before he got in the race. But as he was kind of gearing up as a, as an anti, you know, Covid regime figure, she, she at that time pushed back. She, she put out a statement. She called those remarks reprehensible and insensitive. But he kept talking and she kind of stopped. Right? She, she has, she has just kind of backed away from it. She went to like a UFC fight with, with, with him and the whole gang a few months ago, which was sort of interesting. And, and yeah, so now here she is promoting her book. The thing that struck me the most about all of this is, is her kind of like heroic determination to just stay out of it, stay above it, rise above it. I mean, she gets hit by question after question, like, what'd you make of this? Would you make of that? Would you make of this controversy? What'd you make of that denunciation of your husband by all of his remaining living relatives? And she, her, her, her constant sort of affect is just sort of bemusement, right? She's just kind of like, yeah, I just don't really understand why people are getting all, all so worked up about this. I'll just quote from the piece a little bit. Heinz doesn't get why some people are so mad at her. At first you're thinking, wow, why are they so angry or disappointed? She says with a hint of curb level disbelief in her voice. While she understands that some friends find it stressful to be around her, given their opposition to her husband's views, she's struck by the intense hostility of others. Some people can't even, I don't know, they can't even talk about it. It's rather strange, actually. Then it goes on to talk about Lori David, the real life, Larry David's real life ex wife, as opposed to her, the fictional one. Blasted Hines for sitting behind Kennedy during his Senate confirmation hearings. Cheryl Hines in her best and most watched performance performance yet. David wrote on Threads as the dutiful, adoring wife setting women back decades. Heinz said she found the post odd, adding, I don't really have a relationship with her. So that was also even more surprising that she had so many feelings about me sitting behind my husband, supporting him. I mean, this is kind of the, just the theme. Throughout her part, throughout the interview, Part of this piece, right, is. Is wow. Yeah. What. What, what do you make of that, huh? Is kind of, kind of the mood there? I mean, what, what's going on behind the eyes there? I mean, what do you. I mean, can, can we, can we know. Can we say.

Bubba Wallace (9:04)

I've always had a certain amount of sympathy for the wives of politicians and political figures and pundits, wives, etc. You, you like the idea that they have to agree with every single thing that they, that their, their spouse does or says or whatever is like, obviously not true. And, and I think that there is some allowance to be made there. But like, they, you know, do you remember, Andrew, the, the Twitter ad that was promoting some nonsense health device that our RFK Jr was flacking and she, Cheryl Hines was with RFK Jr in this ad, and they were like, having fun. I just saw that and I was like, you don't get to, you don't get to do the we're separate thing and also do this. Like, I'm sorry, you can't. You can't. He shouldn't be doing this anyway because he's a member of the Cabinet, like, first off. But like, you don't, you don't, you can't separate like that and, and, you know, have any, any credibility to do that.

Andrew Egger (10:02)

I don't know.

Bubba Wallace (10:02)

I, like, look, again, I do not, I, I do not think it is fair to hold her responsible for every policy that her husband holds. But her husband holds so many terrible policies all at the same time that there is like a package. There's a package there, and eventually it just gets overwhelming.

Andrew Egger (10:22)

It's like.

Bubba Wallace (10:24)

What do, what do you see in him? What do you. Because I, again, like, we talk about the Kennedys. I. Andrew, I think you and I are probably more simpatico on the nature of the Kennedy family than, than a lot of our listeners or even possibly colleagues. But the, but like, the, the. The Kennedy family is, Is kind of a cancer on America. And the fact that it has finally like, gotten to the point where arguably the person who will have the greatest influence on American policy of any Kennedy, maybe even more than Ted, who I think had more than. Than jfk, like, is a crack. A crackpot in a crank who's only there because he has a famous name. Like, nobody would listen to this moron with his ridiculous voice if he didn't have Kennedy Jr. At the end of his name. I'm sorry. It drives me bonkers. And this is why she is married to him. Let's be honest. She's married to him because he is a Kennedy and he's just the whole thing. The whole thing.

Andrew Egger (11:29)

Yeah, a couple things there. One, one. Another thing we haven't even talked about in this piece is like just the whole weird Kennedy thing. I mean, the piece goes into some detail about like all the Weir, like hazing that's involved with, with marrying into the Kennedy family and all the, all the different stuff they made this poor woman go through at that time. But, but on the subject of just kind of like her relationship to this whole thing, it's also true that, that again, as. As I get into this piece, I mean, she is kind of somewhat embracing the role of sort of like Maha influencer. Right. I mean, she, she has like a little, a little sort of like boutique brand that was selling what, Maha scented candles. Very like that.

Bubba Wallace (12:09)

That is very much out of business now. I, like, I Googled it after reading this. I was like, is this, is this still a thing? No, that, that, that went away very quickly. I don't, I get the sense people weren't that interested in the Maha health supplement. Right, Right.

Andrew Egger (12:21)

Well, at least not. Yeah. I mean, aren't scented candles sort of like a thought to be very mildly carcinogenic? That's the kind of thing that these people in theory are, are pushing back.

Bubba Wallace (12:30)

I don't know.

Andrew Egger (12:30)

I don't know. Don't. This is not health advice on the, on the Bulwark podcast anyway. And the other, the other thing on that very same same note about the Maha stuff is she kind of gets into defending some of that stuff even in the piece. I mean, here's one more quote. Is science ever settled? Everything's changing. Technology changes. Everything changes. So how could something be settled and then not talked about again? Heinz asked. It's like any drug that goes on the market that at the beginning everybody thinks is great, and then 10 years later they realize it's causing some sort of issue. Well, there was probably settled science at the beginning. I think that really gets to what you were talking about where like this is not her bag. Right. I mean, she would not be talking about all this stuff like unprompted. And yet there is that kind of like something in the water of sort of the, the, the crunchy California set that, that that is appealed to by, by rfk that she's, she's willing to kind of put her name to and set her shoulder to a bit.

Bubba Wallace (13:17)

Absolutely. There's, there is a total, again, total horseshoe factor here of like the crunchy California anti vax liberal. You Know, I. I always like to shorthand it by just saying Marin county, because that's where a lot of this nonsense comes from. But, like, that is. That is. That's a real thing. And I. And I do think that this is part of her confusion, right? Her. Her confusion is, well, how can you be so mad about this? We all were like, well, do we want to give our kids the vaccine? Do we want to. Do we. Do we need to have our kids, you know, do all these things? Like, there is that. There is that undercurrent there. It sounds like she was absolutely part of it. And he is just, you know, he's making the. The. He's just bringing that into the mainstream, which is bad. It's bad for America. It's bad for America. You shouldn't. You shouldn't do things that are bad for America, is my general feeling on America and things you should do.

Andrew Egger (14:15)

At bottom, this is just a very weird and kind of sad story to me. Like, there's. There's not a lot of lessons to be. To be pulled out of this. She seems kind of bemused by the whole thing. Obviously, she's not. You know, there's a really good quote from. From her sister Rebecca Hines in here. I'll just read that. It's like, why are you picking on Cheryl? Says Rebecca Hines, she hasn't done anything except refuse to leave her husband. Which, again, is true.

Bubba Wallace (14:37)

It's true. It's not. Again, this is. I always. I always have a very. I don't like going after political spouses. I like, just don't. I don't think it's. I don't think it behooves anyone much of anything. But, like, she's a public figure. She's going to these. She is in the spotlight. She has her Maha Health brands. I. At a certain point, she's doing Wall Street Journal, long Wall Street Journal profiles with photos of their incredibly compellingly awful decor house. Like the photo of her on this couch with, like, the. The. The terrible portrait, which I don't blame her for taking off the walls.

Andrew Egger (15:15)

If that's the portrait in question, then she is absolutely right. It's not a very good portrait.

Bubba Wallace (15:20)

I don't. I don't blame her for taking that off the walls. But then there's the RFK junior One on the other side where holding a hawk because, you know, he's a birder, he's a hawk, he's a hawk enthusiast. And then there's like, clips of, like, newspaper clippings of the family Underneath it, I just, like, it's a. It's a monument. It's an absolute monument to a degraded bloodline in America that just has. Has really caused a lot of problems over the years. And we need to. If, if there's one good thing that comes out of this, maybe it's people stop paying attention to the Kennedys forever. That would be great.

Andrew Egger (15:55)

You can make the case, like, like, obviously this is a lot of time and, and yelling to devote to Cheryl Hines, Larry David's former TV wife on HBO's Curb youb Enthusiasm, and the current spouse Junior. But at the same time, at the same time, I almost feel like there's like a little bit of a microcosm of, like, all of America in here, where it's like she's. She is. Has gotten to a place that she likes and that she feels like she's attained to. And now, like, her big priority is like, we got to make sure nothing happens to upset the apple cart. Like we got. I'm married to a Kennedy. I did it. It's great. We've arrived. This is my American success story. And like, when he starts sexting Olivia Nuzzi and, and, you know, cheats on me other times and becomes the horrible Health and Human Services secretary who's doing a lot of bad stuff, it's like her eyes are just kind of like fixed forward eyes on the prize. Don't get distracted. Don't talk about any of that stuff. I mean, isn't that kind of how the whole nation is sort of reacting to the Trump presidency?

Bubba Wallace (16:52)

I would, I would say look, without casting stones at any friends or former friends, there is a lot of that. We're just going to. We're not going to pay attention to a lot of this other stuff. I want, we, we want this thing, and this thing is happening. That's good. We don't really need to pay attention to the other things that are, that are going on. Maintaining one's status is a very important thing to do mentally for the self. The self health of lots of people. Right. That is, that is absolutely the undercurrent of a lot of America from 2016 to now. Just like I don't want. I'm. I'm not. I don't want to give up my position. I don't, I don't want to get in trouble with anyone. I don't want to lose my audience. And that is a problem. That's a real. It's a real problem.

Andrew Egger (17:48)

No doubt about it. All right. We can, we can probably leave it there. Good note to go out on Sunny. Thanks for coming on and talking about it. Thanks to you guys all out there for watching. Hope you'll subscribe to the feed. Head over to the bulwark.com and see our other stuff. Let me just let Cheryl Hines talk us out here. I'll read the close of the piece. An earlier title for Hines memoir was Running Through Bees, a play on a story Kennedy told her about encountering a swarm of bees on a hike with his daughter. Kick, and the two getting through it as fast as possible with their lips sealed so their mouths wouldn't get stung. Quote Sometimes you just have to run through the bees, hines says, and it's better if you don't scream.