Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Episode: Is DOJ Playing Games With the Epstein Investigation? (w/ Ryan Goodman)
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Ryan Goodman (Professor of Law at NYU, co-editor of Just Security)
Date: December 28, 2025

In this episode, Bill Kristol and Ryan Goodman break down the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) release of documents tied to the Jeffrey Epstein case, examining the slow pace, incomplete compliance, questionable redactions, and possible “gamesmanship” by DOJ. The discussion covers what’s been learned and remains hidden, possible violations of the Epstein Transparency Act, and what legal and political avenues might force greater transparency. The episode is rich with both legal analysis and broader reflections on transparency, accountability, and political pressure.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Initial Findings and Ongoing Secrecy

• Lack of Major Revelations: Goodman notes that, despite nine days of rolling document releases, there have been “very few and far between” major revelations (02:41).
  • "What surprised me is how little we've learned over nine days that we were supposed to have had all the documents at once. That's what the law required." — Ryan Goodman (02:41)
• DOJ Identified 10 Co-conspirators: DOJ had a list of 10 potential co-conspirators as late as December 2019, post-Epstein’s death. This includes high-profile figures, but some “co-conspirators” may have initially been victims, raising complex issues (03:35).
• Trump’s Involvement: Newly released info showed Trump's presence on Epstein’s plane, including an instance with Epstein and an unnamed 20-year-old woman, surprising even FBI agents at the time (05:35).

2. Critical Withheld Documents

• Key Internal DOJ Documents: Huge prosecution memos, including an 86-page memo on co-conspirators from 2019, remain entirely withheld. DOJ claims “deliberative process” as the reason — a rationale clearly prohibited by the Epstein Transparency Act (06:27).
  • "To me, that's the one that should have all the sirens on it." — Ryan Goodman (07:13)
• Unreleased Florida Documents: Much-anticipated 2007-2008 Florida prosecution memos and indictment drafts, central to victims and key Congress members’ demands, also not released (08:22).
• Victim Statements Withheld: FBI 302s (statements/interviews from victims) have neither been publicly released nor provided to the victims themselves, a decision Goodman calls part of the DOJ’s "games" (09:15).

3. Improper or Suspicious Redactions

• Notable Redaction — Trump & Maxwell Photo: A photo found on Steve Bannon’s phone with Trump and Maxwell is redacted despite similar photos of other figures (e.g., Clinton) being released. No reasonable grounds under the law for this redaction exist (12:07).
  • "I can't imagine any grounds under the Epstein transparency law that would allow for the redaction of that photograph. It's in defiance of the law..." — Ryan Goodman (12:07)
• Legal Justifications Questioned: DOJ appears to be using the Privacy Act as a pretext to shield information that the Epstein Act intended to expose. This seems particularly convenient when shielding Trump (13:30).

4. DOJ’s Handling: Bureaucracy, Incompetence, or Cover-up?

• Million 'New' Documents — Systemic Issues: DOJ now claims to have discovered over a million additional documents at SDNY, raising red flags about incompetence or possible bad faith in the process (20:03–22:57).
  • "It's so puzzling ... how you could discover a million documents from the very U.S. attorney's office that prosecuted the cases." — Ryan Goodman (20:25)
• History of Stonewalling: The earlier "Stonewall Memo" claimed (falsely, in hindsight) there was nothing more to investigate or prosecute. Essential materials were apparently ignored or purposely withheld at that time (22:57–24:33).
• Lack of Organization: The files have been released in a format that is essentially useless—just numbered batches, with no labels or organization. This impedes public/victim access and understanding, contravening the spirit of transparency (29:47).
  • “It cannot be that they don’t have them computerized in such a way that they are at least identifiable from the face...” — Ryan Goodman (30:13)

5. Congressional and Legal Next Steps

• Tools Available to Congress: Congress may pursue censure, contempt, impeachment, criminal referrals, or even funding limitations. Civil or potentially criminal litigation is possible, but requires unified committee/chamber action (41:56–44:36).
  • “If they are truly deceptively not releasing information and it is ... a conspiracy not to comply with the law, that would be a crime.” — Ryan Goodman (42:30)
• Political Dynamics: Goodman and Kristol note bipartisan support in Congress for transparency—but political will weakens when releases may implicate Trump. The survivors themselves, seeking their own statements and full transparency, may be an underestimated pressure force (39:05).
  • “The moral force and political power really of the survivors … that could be very powerful over the next month or so.” — Bill Kristol (39:05)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Withholding the Most Sensitive Memos:
  “Those documents are not being provided and I think it's something to underscore for people...it is, I think fair to say, indirect and flagrant violation of the Epstein Transparency act...”
  — Ryan Goodman (06:28)

• On Trump’s Possible Liability and DOJ Redactions:
  “...the Epstein law says specifically nothing can be withheld or redacted on the basis that it might be publicly embarrassing to an individual. ...Why Maxwell and Trump gets don’t get released ... It does make one wonder.”
  — Bill Kristol (15:14)

• On the DOJ's "Stonewall" Approach:
  “It’s obviously, to me, it suggests a strong cover up ... that they just wanted to deep six the whole thing. And like you say, it failed. Thank goodness it failed for the rule of law and accountability.”
  — Ryan Goodman (24:33)

• Broader Reflection on DOJ Tactics:
  “The incompetence is always possible and I'm sure true in some respects. But I do think people have slightly … underestimated how much from the beginning they have not wanted to release anything.”
  — Bill Kristol (25:41)

• On the (Deliberately?) Useless Document Dumps:
  “If you go to the Epstein Library on the DOJ website, it's exactly as you describe it. It's just batches ... It's incredibly frustrating for the victims themselves who are having to go through each one and … painful to think about.”
  — Ryan Goodman (29:47)

• On the Political Games Over Transparency and Victims:
  “I'll use one word, I guess, a disgusting political game over the lives of survivors and victims who … have been incredible in their historic success of getting this law passed seeking transparency, let alone accountability.”
  — Ryan Goodman (36:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Introductions & Context | 01:30 | | Initial takeaways & DOJ releasing fewer revelations than expected | 02:41 | | DOJ’s “10 co-conspirators” revelation | 03:34 | | Trump’s plane trips with Epstein | 05:35 | | Hidden prosecution memos and DOJ’s rationale | 06:28 | | Florida prosecution docs & victim statements missing | 08:22 | | Redacted Trump-Maxwell photo & legal basis questioned | 12:07 | | Analysis of Privacy Act as pretext for redactions | 13:30 | | Discovery of a million new documents & systemic dysfunction | 20:03 | | Discussion of SDNY’s role & prior "stonewall" memo | 22:57 | | Chaotic, unorganized batch releases on DOJ's website | 29:47 | | Future outlook: Possible outcomes and survivor/victim influence | 39:05 | | Congress’s options & legal ramifications | 41:56 | | Final reflections on transparency, gamesmanship, and story scope | 44:38 |

Summary and Takeaways

• The DOJ has not complied fully—either in spirit or letter—with the new Epstein Transparency Act, using legal technicalities to withhold critical evidence, including memos and victim statements.
• Not all redactions can be justified under the law; some, especially those potentially embarrassing to former President Trump, seem politically motivated.
• A major flaw in the DOJ’s release approach is the unorganized, opaque formatting, making it difficult for the media, public, and victims themselves to access or understand what’s there.
• Goodman and Kristol expect further pressure from Congress, the courts, and especially survivors could force more substantive disclosures, but anticipate DOJ resistance and possible games to drag out the process.
• The podcast frames this as a continued, politically charged battle with major implications for the rule of law and public accountability in high-profile sex trafficking cases.

Tone

The conversation maintains a tone of skeptical analysis, frustration at official stonewalling, deep legal insight, and a respect for the survivors’ quest for justice and truth. Goodman’s and Kristol’s dialogue is measured but frank, exposing the gap between what the law requires and what DOJ is currently providing.

For anyone who wants an in-depth understanding of both what has—and has not—come out of the Epstein document releases and what political and legal struggles remain, this episode provides an essential, richly detailed roadmap.