Is Mike Waltz Saying We Should Bomb HOSPITALS?

Summary

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Bulwark Takes: "Is Mike Waltz Saying We Should Bomb HOSPITALS?"

Host: Will Saletan, The Bulwark
Episode Date: April 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Bulwark Takes focuses on the alarming escalation in rhetoric and policy around the ongoing war in Iran. Will Saletan explores recent statements from top Trump administration officials—most notably Ambassador Mike Waltz—justifying threats against Iranian civilian infrastructure and, implicitly, civilians themselves. The discussion challenges the ethical boundaries being crossed by U.S. leaders, questioning when "good guys" start adopting "bad guy" tactics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Escalatory Threats Against Iran

• Trump’s Post on Truth Social (01:00):

  • “If Iran doesn't accept our terms for ending the war, the United States is going to knock out every single power plant and every single bridge in Iran. No more Mr. Nice Guy.”
  • Will Saletan breaks down the meaning: Trump signals a willingness to ignore Geneva/Hague Conventions protecting civilian infrastructure in war.

• Will Saletan (01:25):

  • "When Trump says 'no more Mr. Nice Guy,' he's not talking about table manners. He means we’re not going to fuss anymore about all those annoying rules in the Geneva Conventions... about targeting civilian assets like bridges and power plants."

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2. Ambassador Mike Waltz Defends the Threats (ABC Interview)

• Jonathan Karl asks Waltz (03:02):

  • “Is [Trump] prepared to do what he threatened ... destroy every power plant and every bridge in the country?”

• Waltz’s Response (03:14):

  • "All options are on the table. Absolutely. Unlike his predecessor, President Trump doesn't publicly take options off the table ... giving [adversaries] leverage."

• Saletan’s Analysis (03:25):

  • Waltz’s answer embraces the idea that civilian infrastructure is fair game to maintain negotiating leverage.

• Waltz further asserts (04:26):

  • “We could take that infrastructure out relatively easily. The Iranian air defenses have absolutely decimated.”

• Waltz Denies War Crimes (04:42):

  • "Attacking destroying infrastructure that has clearly and historically been used for dual military purposes is not a war crime."

• Saletan Pushback (04:52):

  • Notes Trump’s blanket threat covers ALL bridges/power plants, not just those with a military purpose.

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3. Conflating Civilian and Military Targets

• Jonathan Karl presses (05:12):

  • Points out Trump mentioned “every single bridge and power plant,” not just those supporting military infrastructure.

• Waltz’s Evasive Response (05:30):

  • “That would be an escalatory ladder.”

• Saletan Unpacks the Euphemism (05:32):

  • "Where is the ladder going? ... If nothing is off the table, guess where we’re headed."

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4. Waltz on Meet the Press: Hospital and School Strikes

• Welker asks about civilian casualties (07:50):

  • “Are you saying the United States is okay targeting civilians? The people of Iran?”

• Waltz’s Half-Start on ‘Civilian Infrastructure’ (08:34):

  • Begins to say “civilian infrastructure ... is absolutely a legitimate target,” then pivots to “commingled” targets.

• Waltz doubles down (09:14):

  • “The Iranian regime ... has a long history of actually deliberately hiding military infrastructure in hospitals, schools, neighborhoods.”

• Saletan's Reaction (09:25):

  • Challenges why Waltz would invoke hospitals/schools unless arguing that hitting them could be justified.

• Waltz (10:35):

  • “It’s perfectly acceptable in the rules of land warfare ...”
  • Then pivots to: “The Iranian regime is launching drones and missiles directly into civilian homes, hotels, and resorts.”

• Saletan’s Moral Concern (10:45):

  • Suggests Waltz is arguing: If Iran flagrantly commits war crimes, the U.S. is justified in “ambiguous” war crimes.

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5. Energy Secretary Chris Wright Echoes the Logic

• Fox News Segment (11:35):

  • On threat to obliterate infrastructure: “The president is using every way he can to get leverage ... He uses uncertainty in different ways.” (11:47)

• Saletan’s Analogy (11:59):

  • Compares the strategy to Michael Corleone from The Godfather: “Maybe I’ll kill your whole family, maybe I won’t. ... Uncertainty gives us leverage. Smart.”

• CNN Segment, Jake Tapper raises war crime concerns (13:10):

  • “Are you not concerned that those proposed strikes on civilian infrastructure ... would constitute a war crime?”

• Wright’s Response (13:20):

  • “The President's looking for maximum leverage ... Of course, a lot of it supports civilians as well. But no, I’m not worried about that.”

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6. Elise Stefanik on Threats of Genocide

• Trump’s ‘Obliterate a Whole Civilization’ Threat (14:32):

  • Tapper presses Stefanik: “What did you think when President Trump threatened to obliterate the entire Iranian civilization?”

• Stefanik’s Response (14:39):

  • “He was focusing on the Iranian regime. And what did it do? It brought the Iranians to the table. It led to the ceasefire.”

• Saletan Highlights (15:42):

  • Notes Stefanik repeatedly justifies the genocidal threat simply because “it worked”—six times repeating “it brought the Iranians to the table.”

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7. Concluding Warnings

• Saletan’s Wrap-Up (16:00):
  • Sums up the bipartisan official line: Threats to destroy civilian targets and even threaten genocide are justified as effective tools.
  • "That is how a once great country, our country, becomes one of the bad guys. We don’t need to make America great again. We need to make America good again."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Will Saletan (01:25):
  “When Trump says 'no more Mr. Nice Guy,' he's not talking about table manners. He means we’re not going to fuss anymore about all those annoying rules in the Geneva Conventions... about targeting civilian assets like bridges and power plants.”

• Mike Waltz (03:14):
  “All options are on the table. Absolutely.”

• Mike Waltz (04:26):
  “We could take that infrastructure out relatively easily. The Iranian air defenses have absolutely decimated.”

• Mike Waltz (09:14):
  “The Iranian regime ... has a long history of actually deliberately hiding military infrastructure in hospitals, schools, neighborhoods.”

• Chris Wright (11:47):
  “The president is using every way he can to get leverage ... He uses uncertainty in different ways.”

• Stefanik (14:39 & 15:42):
  “He was focusing on the Iranian regime ... it brought the Iranians to the table. It led to the ceasefire.”
  Repeated multiple times, justifying threats of destroying an entire civilization as effective negotiation.

• Will Saletan (16:00):
  "We don't need to make America great again. We need to make America good again."

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Important Timestamps

• Trump’s post and initial breakdown: 00:58–03:02
• Mike Waltz (ABC, on “all options on the table”): 03:02–04:52
• Jonathan Karl confronts Waltz with “every” bridge/power plant: 05:12–05:30
• Waltz on Meet the Press (“escalation ladder”): 07:03–07:22
• Welker asks about civilian targeting, Waltz pivots: 07:50–09:25
• Waltz on Iranian use of hospitals/schools: 09:14–09:50
• Saletan on Waltz’s implications: 09:53–10:45
• Chris Wright on negotiation “leverage” (Fox/CNN): 11:35–13:34
• Elise Stefanik justifies Trump’s genocide threat: 14:32–16:00
• Saletan’s closing critique: 16:00–16:50

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Summary Takeaway

Bulwark Takes presents a stark warning about the shifting moral foundations of U.S. foreign policy. Through detailed analysis and direct quotations, Saletan reveals a growing acceptance among senior officials—not just of targeting civilian infrastructure, but also of using the threat of mass destruction as a central tool of American negotiating strategy. The episode forcefully asks listeners to consider where such normalization of “ambiguous war crimes” leads and calls for Americans to reclaim not just national greatness, but goodness.

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Transcript

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Hey, it's Will Salatan from the Bulwark. So, in the war in Iran, we are the good guys, right? I mean, the Iranian regime is definitely the bad guys, right? They support terrorism, they massacre their own protesters, they shoot missiles at civilians in other countries, they're just bad. So, so that means we are the good guys, right? But it turns out that it's really easy for the good guys to become bad guys. And that's what is happening to the United States, our country right now. Let me show you what I'm talking about here is what our president, Donald Trump, posted on Truth Social on Sunday morning. He said, if Iran doesn't accept our terms for ending the war, quote, the United States is going to knock out every single power plant and every single bridge in Iran. No more Mr. Nice Guy. And when Trump says, no more Mr. Nice Guy, he's not talking about table manners. He means we're not going to fuss anymore about all those annoying rules in the Geneva Conventions or the Hague Conventions, about targeting civilian assets like bridges and power plants. We're not going to fuss anymore about whether what we're doing is a war crime. Now, it's one thing for Trump to say that, but you don't really become a bad country. So you have other people in our government following Trump's lead and defending those threats. And that is what happened yesterday on the Sunday shows. I'm going to show you three senior officials from the Trump administration and the gop. Let's start with Mike Waltz. He is Our American Ambassador to the United nations, he was on ABC and Jonathan Karl read him what Trump wrote and he asked this question, Is he

[Jonathan Karl]

prepared to do what he threatened here? He said, destroy every power plant and every bridge in the country for full on, in depth war extended in the Middle East. He's ready for that.

[Mike Waltz]

Well, all options are on the table. Absolutely. Unlike his predecessor, President Trump doesn't publicly take options off the table and tell our adversaries what he's not going to do, therefore giving them leverage.

[Will Saletan]

Okay, so all options are on the table, including, including hitting the civilian targets. See, according to Waltz, that, that is the difference between Trump and former presidents like Barack Obama, George W. Bush. See, they, those former presidents, they were too fussy. See, they took options off the table, like destroying all of a country's bridges and power plants. See, that was dumb. That was dumb on their part because then the enemy knows that there are things you won't do. Right? And according to Waltz, according to Waltz, that gives the enemy leverage. See, Trump, Trump is smart, right? He's telling the enemy there's nothing we won't do. And just in case, just in case it's not clear, Walt says, yeah, yeah, we're ready to take out all of that civilian infrastructure.

[Mike Waltz]

All options are on the table. We could take that infrastructure out relatively easily. The Iranian air defenses have absolutely decimated.

[Will Saletan]

It's easy. He says, right, we're ready to go. But, but Walt says it's not a war crime.

[Mike Waltz]

Attacking destroying infrastructure that has clearly and historically been used for dual military purposes is not a war crime.

[Will Saletan]

Okay, fair point. If some power plants are used by Iran's military, those are military targets. But, but that's not what Trump said. Trump said all the bridges and all the power plants. And Carl brings that up.

[Jonathan Karl]

The President today said that he would knock out every single power plant and every single bridge in Iran. He's not just talking about those that are supporting the military infrastructure. He is saying every bridge and every power plant in the country. That wouldn't be a war crime.

[Mike Waltz]

That would be an escalatory ladder.

[Will Saletan]

Oh, yeah, it certainly would be an escalation. But what does he mean about a ladder? I mean, where is the ladder going?

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[Will Saletan]

This is not the only time Walt has talked about a ladder. He used the same word the same day on Meet the Press.

[Mike Waltz]

The President will move up an escalated, an escalation ladder responsibly as our amazing military will follow those orders with him as a commander in chief.

[Will Saletan]

Wait a minute. Before our amazing military starts following these orders, where is this ladder going? I mean, is Trump moving us up the ladder or is he taking us down the ladder? Down, down as in not to the good place. Because if, if nothing is off the table, guess where we're headed. Let me show you what I mean. Here is what Kristen Welker asked Walt on Meet the Press.

[Kristen Welker]

But as you know, some Iranian advocates are urging the United States not to target civilian infrastructure. Are you saying the United States is okay targeting civilians? The people of Iran?

[Will Saletan]

Okay, so her question is literally, is the United States okay with targeting civilians? That's, that's not even bridges and power plants. She literally said civilians. So the answer should be no. No, we're not okay with that. We're not going to do that. But Waltz doesn't say that. I'm going to show you his answer, but I want you to listen for when he starts to say the word civilian and then, then he catches himself.

[Mike Waltz]

In the laws of land warfare and the rules of engagement, any type of infrastructure that is being commingled, that is being used to move military hardware is absolutely a Legitimate target.

[Will Saletan]

Did you hear that? He started to say civilian infrastructure was a legitimate target, but then he caught himself and he said commingled infrastructure. He said if you commingle military assets with civilian assets, then. Then it's fair game. So what's he talking about? What kind of commingled assets are fair game?

[Mike Waltz]

The Iranian regime, in particular, and its terrorist proxies have a long history of actually deliberately hiding military infrastructure in hospitals, schools, neighborhoods.

[Will Saletan]

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hospitals and schools? He's not saying that hospitals and schools are fair game, is he?

[Kristen Welker]

I'm referencing people who are completely opposed to the Iranian regime and yet don't want to see civilian infrastructure targeted. But let's keep moving. Will. Vice President J.D.

[Will Saletan]

vince.

[Mike Waltz]

We have to keep in mind that this is a regime that hides. That hides military hardware.

[Kristen Welker]

But, Mr. Ambassador. Understood. Let's. Let's keep moving.

[Will Saletan]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no, no. Let's not keep moving. Let's pause right there. Okay? She asked about targeting civilian infrastructure, right? And Waltz, responding to that point, said, hey, hey, but Iran puts military hardware in hospitals and schools. Why would you bring that up? Why would you bring that up there? Unless your point is, if we hit hospitals and schools, that's okay, because that's where Iran hides military equipment. In fact, Waltz says that's what Iran does. He says they target civilians.

[Mike Waltz]

Number three, it's perfectly acceptable in the rules of land warfare. Number four, the Iranian regime is launching drones and missiles directly into civilian homes, hotels, and resorts.

[Will Saletan]

Now, he's right. Iran does target civilians. But Waltz didn't make that point in the context of condemning Iran. He made it in the context of defending our right to hit the bridges and the power plants. He's implying that because Iran does it, we can do it. Or let's be totally fair. He's implying that because Iran does flagrant war crimes, we. We can do ambiguous war crimes. I mean, hey, at least we're better than they are, right? And it's not just Waltz. Chris Wright, the Energy Secretary, went on two other shows on Sunday, and he made the same points. Here he is on Fox News, when

[Chris Wright]

the President talks about blowing up every power plant, every bridge. How does that complicate things? For if the people do have an opportunity to rebuild there, and how far it sets back some kind of recovery for the country.

[Jake Tapper]

Look, the president is using every way he can to get leverage over the regime to bring this conflict to an end. He's a creative negotiator. He uses pressure in different ways. He uses Uncertainty in different ways.

[Will Saletan]

Ah. See, the President, Donald Trump, is a creative negotiator, right? He uses uncertainty. And the uncertainty is, will he blow up all your bridges and power plants? It's kind of like that scene in the Godfather where Michael Corleone intimidates a witness by bringing the witness's brother to a hearing. So Michael's message to the witness is, maybe I'll kill your whole family, or maybe, maybe I won't. See, that's uncertainty. Right? And uncertainty gives us leverage. Smart. And then just in case. Just in case it wasn't clear enough that targeting all the bridges and power plants is a war crime. Jake Tapper raised that point directly with Secretary Wright on cnn. Tapper read Trump's social media post out loud, and then he asked this question.

[Jake Tapper]

Are you not concerned that those proposed strikes on civilian infrastructure, including power plants, would hurt the innocent people of Iran and would constitute a war crime?

[Jonathan Karl]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

Look, the President's looking for maximum leverage, maximum negotiation, maximum leverage. In these negotiations, a lot of their infrastructure supports only their war machine. Of course, a lot of it supports civilians as well. But no, I'm not worried about that.

[Will Saletan]

There it is again. The President is looking for maximum leverage. Right? And the leverage comes from threatening the power plants, even the ones that only serve civilians. Okay, one more. I want to show you one more Republican. This is Elise Stefanik. She was the third highest ranking Republican in the House of Representatives. And then she was Trump's nominee to be our ambassador to the U.N. okay. She was also on CNN yesterday, and Tapper asked her about this message that Trump posted two weeks ago. Trump wrote that if Iran didn't open the Strait of Hormuz, quote, a whole civilization will die tonight.

[Jonathan Karl]

Okay.

[Will Saletan]

This is after Trump originally threatened to destroy all the bridges and power plants. Right. So here is what Tapper asked Stefanik.

[Jake Tapper]

What did you think when President Trump threatened to obliterate the entire Iranian civilization?

[Elise Stefanik]

He was focusing on the Iranian regime. And what did it do? It brought the Iranians to the table. It led to the ceasefire.

[Will Saletan]

Ah, it brought the Iranians to the table. Again, this is the same point you heard from Mike Waltz and Chris Wright. Trump is threatening civilian targets to frighten Iran into making concessions. Except. Except this time, this time, Tapper, he isn't talking about the threat to bridges and power plants. He's talking about Trump's literal threat that a whole civilization will die tonight. That is an explicit threat to. Of genocide. And Stefanik says, she says that threat is okay. It's okay because it worked. In fact, that exchange between her and Tapper, that goes on for six minutes. He keeps reminding her that Trump explicitly threatened to kill a whole civilization. And she keeps saying this.

[Elise Stefanik]

Jake, isn't it true that it brought the Iranians to the table?

[Mike Waltz]

I don't know.

[Elise Stefanik]

A ceasefire agreement. It was an effective tool to bring them to the table. And what did it do? It brought the Iranians to the table. President Trump effectively brought the Iranians to the table. And again, that has brought the Iranians to the table.

[Will Saletan]

So that's where our country, the United States, officially stands right now. Our energy secretary, our Ambassador to the U.N. our previous nominee for Ambassador to the U.N. a senior Republican in Congress. They all say that our president's threat to destroy civilian targets or even to wipe out an entire civilization is okay. They say those threats are okay because they will scare Iran into giving us what we want. That is how a once great country, our country, becomes one of the bad guys. We don't need to make America great again. We need to make America good again. See you next time.

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