B (3:16)

Played well in the room.

A (3:17)

A lot of people liked it. I saw some bu about how she seemed presidential to people in the room. But for me, it's a little, it's, it's definitely still kind of coded towards kind of the woke social justice left stuff that we're hearing around, you know, the Black Lives Matter protests and things of that nature. And then you get to Zoran and he really has kind of dialed in on the affordability, dialed in on the cost of living, dialed in on making New York a better place to live for everybody. And he does so he's is in a much cheerier way, happy warrior manner. His manner is just much happier and smilier than Bernie's, of course. And, and of course he again, like he mentioned some of the identity politics stuff, but like the, the emphasis is different than what you see from aoc. And, and I, I don't know. I think that it works and here's why I think it works. There's basically two groups that the Democrats need to think about and particularly left populist Democrats need to think about. Like if you're a DSA candidate, you're like, how do I get left populist policies to be successful as a political matter? Right. And you know, we've seen it in the cities, but how can you broaden that out to, you know, make it more of a successful movement in swing states and in other places? Well, for starters, you got to do better with poor low income voters, particularly from traditional Democratic constituencies, black voters, Hispanic voters, Asian voters. And the Democrats are not doing that well or they've at least lost a lot of ground in that demo. There's a new study out today. I'm going to go deeper on this tomorrow with Sam Stein but it kind of looks at where the Democrats have lost ground over the course of the last 10 years. And it has been the most acute in, like, poor neighborhoods that are, you know, either poor black neighborhoods. One was in New York. It was a poor neighborhood filled with Chinese immigrants mostly. And so if you just look at the precincts where they're losing ground, it's a lot of these poor voters of color. If the DSA is going to work, they got to appeal to those voters. Like, that has to be their bread and butter, right? If left populism is going to work, they got to appeal to those voters. And I think that a lot of those voters were turned off about some of the cultural moves that the Democrats made. That same study talked about how Democrats started talking more and more about social issues and climate issues and less and less about economics. And so that's like the theory of the case for left populism that, like, they can re engage those voters by focusing on economics. I think that probably would help to also dial it back a little bit on the culture stuff. And I think that's where Zoran's a little better than aoc, frankly, in his message positioning. But that is one group. And the other group, which is why I feel so suited to talk about this, is me. If left populists are going to win, they've got to do better with those traditional Democratic constituencies. But then they've got to hold on to the people that have come into the Democratic coalition during the Trump era who are not going to share all of their economic policy views, but who want to know that their policies are not so extreme. They're not not trying to burn everything down, that they're not scary. You know, that we, those of us who left the Republican Party over Trump, do not want to replace right wing illiberalism with left wing illiberalism. Right? You want to make sure that there's going to be some continuity with traditional American values, mores norms, Right? And interestingly, I think that the way Zoran talks is more appealing both to my people, right? These former Republican types, the swing voters, the suburban moms and to the working class or even, you know, kind of bottom of the income bracket voters that the Democrats have lost ground with. And I think it's because his manner, the way that he talks, the way that he presents it, where his emphases are, it is on stuff that is net less alienating than we've seen from some of the, like, progressive, identitarian left other candidates, particularly over the course of the Last decade. So I want to give you another tangible example of this. That is the ad that Zorin was running on Fox News that I just thought was really smart and clever and well done. Let's watch Zoran's Fox News app.

C (7:52)

Hey, I'm the actual Zoram. I'm Donnie, not the guy they talk about on this channel. My radical agenda. Turn the page on the billionaire backed politics of Andrew Cuomo.

A (8:01)

Okay, so there you go. So what is he talking about there? At the start, it is in the Bernie tradition and something that I think is gaining more and more popularity for a variety of reasons which we can get into at a later date. But there's going after the billionaire class, I think works. Going after the billionaire backed policies of Andrew Cuomo works and has a ring of truth to it. And I don't think is really turning too many people off. Then you go over what does he talk about that? What does he want to do? Make the city more affordable, keep New York City safe and tackle government waste. Tackle government waste? Again, that is stealing, borrowing from the abundance left or the small government. Right wingers like obviously Democrats talk about this, but you don't hear that a lot from DSA types. Zoran did that when I interviewed with him, really focused on that, talking about how he thinks that people that want bigger government, it should also be really important, incumbent upon them to talk about and care about ensuring that government works efficiently. Which is just logical. If you're gonna sell government to people, you have to sell them a product that they think works for them. So he's on Fox, he's using some traditional conservative tropes about the government and he's saying directly that like I'm not scary, I'm just not doing the billionaire dirty work like Andrew Cuomo is. Let's watch the end.

C (9:26)

Make the city affordable, tackle government waste, keep New York safe and deliver on our promises with universal childcare, rent that you can afford and a property tax system that actually makes sense. So don't be fooled by the noise. This is who I am and you, you're who I'm fighting for. Paid for by Zoron for nyc.

A (9:44)

Okay. Then he lists out what his actual tangible promises are. Universal child care, something that is badly needed in this country that is not. Not something that's scary. Going to turn people off, making rent affordable. He's not using like a socialist buzzword there. It's just about making rent more affordable to people. Some of the policy specifics on that, some on the right might not like, but Just as a general matter like that is something people want. Housing is too expensive, affordability is at the top of everybody's interests. And then he talks about property tax reforms. He's going into Fox to delivering that ad. And I just don't think that anybody watching that Fox ad, I mean, there might be people that don't like him because of other things they've heard about him or racism or just, oh, he's a socialist. So I'm not even going to listen. I can't even hear what's coming into my head. But for the people that are open to hearing it, the message isn't scary. It is optimistic, it's forward looking, it's responsive to people's concerns. It's marking the real foes as the billionaire class, not as MAGA Americans or anything like that. He does it with a smile. And I think it is an appealing synthesis of what his DSA forebears have left him. And I think that if a Democrat can focus on that and execute this, obviously Zara can't run for president. He's foreign, foreign born. You know, I think that is something that can be broadly appealing. And I think that the way that he's presenting himself in the way that he talks about it really matters. And I just think that this stark scene of me sitting there and watching that highlight reel of Bernie and then AOC and then him, I, I just, as somebody who is conceivably one of the target audiences for left populism, how do you win people like Tim over? I was just looking at it and saying, I think that Zoran has found a messaging substance and style that is preferable to some of what we saw coming before him. So we'll see how that all shakes out. I wanted to, it's worth sharing. This is why you come to this page, right? So you can get the extended version, the extended cut of the cable hit. You know, you want to know what was really going on in my mind when they asked me for a 45 second sound bite? That's what I'm giving you right here on this channel. So subscribe to the feed, but stick around. We got into a bunch of other stuff with Chris Jansen and Basil Smichel on this democracy question. And it was some material I didn't get to on the pod today that I think is worth talking about, about what Donald Trump is, is doing with DOJ right now in response to his hallucinations about 2020. So stick around for that subscribe to the feed comment. Tell me what you Think appreciate that I do my best to check him out and, and hear from you guys and be responsive to it.

B (12:36)

So let me know what you think.

A (12:38)

We'll be talking to you soon.

D (12:39)

Tim, deconstruct this for us because in a sense, both sides are arguing we're fighting for democracy. Democrats have been saying that, I would say, since 2016. They say Trump threatens democracy. He says that he lost in 2020 because democracy was, you know, that the democratic norms were not in place. Who's winning this fight? Does it matter in terms of messaging?

B (13:08)

Well, Trump won the last election, so I guess he won the fight when it comes to just looking at this purely in politics. And part of this is, I think, speaks to why democracy is a standalone issue, is a weak political issue for the Democrats to focus on. And obviously it's very important on the substance. I'm gonna get to in a second, but it's for. The reason you just laid out is that it's kind of esoteric. Donald Trump has convinced his base of the lie that the election was stolen from him in 2020 or that it was unfair in some way, which is obviously not true. But so then when you poll people and say, do you care about democracy? It's like both sides say yes, because the Republicans are talking, think that the 2020 election was stolen. So I mean, obviously on the substance, it's the Republican side that is wrong on this. It was Donald Trump that tried to overturn the will of the people in 2020. That's why it's kind of an ominous statement there where he says at the end that if they don't get this fixed, this will happen again. I think a lot of us are worried that this is gonna happen again with this being in 2028, Donald Trump trying to stay in power, do things to subvert or overturn the will of the people, as he did. So, look, I think that sending the DOJ after people is a complete undermining of the way that the Department of Justice works and our democratic norms. And I think it's alarming on the one hand. On the other hand, this is all based on a lie. Fox had to pay 700 plus million dollars because of this lie. There's been no evidence of it. They've tried to prove it. And he can send the Department of Justice down a rabbit hole going after his fantasies, but I don't know that it's actually going to yield anything.

D (14:52)

Tim, let me ask you. Well, actually, let me play for you what the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries said at an NAACP rally. This was in support of Letitia James, the New York ag.

E (15:06)

Wickedness in High Places. Folks who would rather shut down the government than provide health care to everyday Americans. People who have weaponized the Department of Justice. I've come to the conclusion that while Jim Crow may be dead, he still got some nieces and nephews that are alive and well running around Washington, D.C. and the rest of the nation.

D (15:36)

Tim, Wickedness in high places is an interesting rallying cry that echoes kind of what Letitia James herself said, which is that Trump is taking a wrecking ball to our values. Is this ultimately, if they can go after Tish James, we're all in danger.

B (15:54)

I actually kind of like the way.

A (15:56)

That you phrased that question at the.

B (15:57)

End better than how the minority leader talked about it. Right. Some of it is. I agree with what he's trying to say, but I wish the Democrats would just say it more bluntly rather than kind of talking about it in the way of like, again, Jim Crow, the fate of democracy, wickedness. But what is happening bluntly, Donald Trump is going after his political folks. Donald Trump, they have created essentially propped up fake reasons to go after people that he doesn't like, using the power of the government. The American people are not for this. They don't want a government where you're gonna have the Justice Department, the most.

A (16:36)

Powerful people that have the power to.

B (16:38)

Subpoena you, that have the power to jail you and imprison you, come after you because the president doesn't like you or doesn't like what you said or because who knows what could be next? What you said on social media. That is what's happening here in this Letitia in the Tish James case, like, going after her over the second mortgage is totally preposterous. And the only reason they're going after her is because Donald Trump wants revenge. And that's not a way that we wanna run our government in this country.