Is Trump Considering PARDONS for Sex Offenders?

Summary

Bulwark Takes – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is Trump Considering PARDONS for Sex Offenders?
Podcast Date: October 7, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller & Sam Stein

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Donald Trump’s recent comments regarding the possibility of pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell after her latest appeal was rejected by the Supreme Court. Tim Miller and Sam Stein analyze Trump’s evasive, ambiguous answers on the matter, discuss his historic responses around sexual offenders, compare his tone when discussing sex crimes versus other topics, and debate the broader political ramifications of the Epstein-Maxwell saga for Trump.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Response to Pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell

• Recap of the Incident ([00:20] – [01:32])
  Trump was asked, after Ghislaine Maxwell’s Supreme Court appeal was rejected, whether he’d consider a pardon. He responded:

  "You know, I haven't heard the name in so long I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look."
  — Donald Trump ([01:36])

• Hosts ridicule Trump’s claim to not remember Maxwell, noting his extensive prior associations with her.

2. The Evasiveness and Deflections in Trump’s Answer

• Trump repeatedly avoids a clear answer, stating he "needs to look at it," and brings up unrelated names:

  "A lot of people have asked me for pardons. I call him. Puff Daddy has asked me for a pardon."
  — Donald Trump ([02:09])

• Hosts note Trump’s strategy—playing coy instead of outright condemning or denying.

3. A Pattern of Minimizing or Sympathizing with Sex Offenders

• Trump’s past remarks about Maxwell are contrasted with his harsher statements about migrants or his own officials.

• A comparison is drawn with Trump’s 2020 statement:

  "I just wish her well, frankly."
  — Donald Trump ([03:50])

• Tim Miller’s outrage:

  “This is one of the most notorious underage child sex traffickers in the country. She is horrific. And I hope that she experiences the consequences of her actions.”
  — Tim Miller ([04:13])

4. The Disparity in Trump’s Tone Toward Sex Offenders vs. Others

• Discussion on Trump’s harsher rhetoric toward migrants and decorated veterans compared to his leniency with sex offenders:

  “Think about the difference in the way Donald Trump talks about Joan Maxwell versus how he talks about, like, random migrants...They're vicious criminals...They must be sent out of the country...”
  — Tim Miller ([04:22])

• Sam Stein highlights that Trump is consistently unable to simply commit to not pardoning a sex offender.

5. The ‘Puff Daddy’ Non Sequitur and Its Implications

• Both hosts note Trump’s random mention of Puff Daddy (Diddy) also asking for a pardon as a sign that these figures are interconnected in Trump’s mind:

  “The key tell, as you'd say at the poker table...when asked about one child sex trafficker, out of nowhere he brings up another sexual criminal.”
  — Tim Miller ([05:14])

• They reject the ‘dementia’ theory, seeing instead a strategic ambiguity.

6. Political Fallout: Does It Matter?

• Tim and Sam debate the political ramifications of the Trump-Maxwell/Epstein saga:

  “Sarah...thinks this...cover up [is] going to be a millstone around Trump's neck...I just, I remain pretty skeptical of that.”
  — Tim Miller ([09:45])

• Sam takes a middle ground:

  “Any issue that dominates the conversation for a month and a half...is significant...But...I just don't know that people are gonna...maybe there's a portion...that's the extent of it.”
  — Sam Stein ([10:38])

• Both agree it creates distractions but doubt it will change electoral outcomes, although Democrats may use it to keep Trump off-balance or draw fundraising energy.

7. Trump’s Psychology and Self-Incrimination

• Discussion on why Trump won’t simply deny pardoning Maxwell:

  “Why can't he just do that? What is like, the lack of capacity to do that?”
  — Sam Stein ([12:27])

• Speculation about Trump’s comfort in dodging accountability, possible guilt, and his habitual association with dubious figures:

  “He's gotten away with some dozen plus sexual assaults...This was something...from his distant past...he's kind of like, it was like 20 years ago...I went with this guy who's kind of a creep, and we had pinup parties with girls in bikinis.”
  — Tim Miller ([13:30])

• Host questions if Trump is even capable of feeling humiliation regarding these associations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He just wishes her well back then. Now he doesn't remember who she is, who back then. He was wishing her well.”
  — Tim Miller ([03:54])

• “Trump is like, who was that that you're talking about? It's a name I haven't heard in a long time.”
  — Tim Miller & Sam Stein ([02:21], [02:34])

• “If someone asked you that, you'd be like, how dare you? Why would you assume that I would ever do that?”
  — Sam Stein ([04:15])

• “It's pretty humiliating to see your note to Epstein with the pubic hair sign. Maybe he has that.”
  — Sam Stein ([13:57])

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Key Timestamps

• 00:20 – Intro to Trump’s Oval Office comments
• 01:21 – Audio of press questioning Trump on Maxwell pardon
• 03:50 – Replay of Trump’s "wish her well" comment about Maxwell
• 04:22 – Discussion of Trump’s rhetoric on migrants vs. sexual offenders
• 05:14 – Highlight of Trump mentioning Puff Daddy and pattern in referencing notorious figures
• 09:44 – Political question: Does the Maxwell saga damage Trump?
• 10:38 – Sam’s ‘middle ground’ analysis of political impact
• 12:27 – Why Trump can’t just give a straightforward answer
• 13:30 – Trump’s psychology and relationship to the Epstein circle

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Conclusion

The hosts dissect Trump’s classic pattern of ambiguity and evasion when faced with direct questions about associates involved in sexual abuse cases. They emphasize the political theater of these non-answers: how they infuriate opponents, yet are unlikely to cause fundamental shifts in Trump’s political fortunes. Ultimately, the episode paints a portrait of Trump’s enduring refusal to flatly denounce or distance himself from notorious figures, and questions why he continues to behave in such a self-incriminating manner—even in the highest office.

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For Further Listening

• Subscribe for continued coverage of Trump’s political maneuvers and daily news analysis.
• Upcoming episodes teased: Coverage of recent Cabinet meetings and further press briefings.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark with managing editor Sam Stein. Vile and repugnant here again together with you.

[B]

A thing.

[A]

I don't think so. No. I don't know. I'm just. It's. I'm kind of into it today. The what? We can make the teas violent.

[B]

That's actually good merch. Yeah, that could be good merch.

[A]

I don't know. I don't. Who would wear that, though, I think would be the problem. Your wife. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, not gonna do any follow ups. There we are. We're taping this video after hours. I'm sure she's thrilled. Let's get to the news. Donald Trump was asked in the Oval Office. The beautiful gold Oval Office.

[B]

Quite gold.

[A]

Quite beautiful. I just redecorated.

[B]

Hey, you're a fan of it.

[A]

I know. I love brothel chic. You know, better than Protestant drab. And he was asked about Ghislaine Maxwell. You all know Joel and Maxwell. Everybody knows Joel and Maxwell. Donald Trump was pictured more times with John Maxwell than I've been pictured with some of my aunts. And. And he was asked about how she had another appeal that was rejected and whether he would consider a pardon. And his response was pretty noteworthy. I guess. I want to watch it, but, Sam, do you want to point people to anything to look for in particular?

[B]

There's like three things in the response that are worth pointing out. Let's just watch it first.

[A]

Let's just watch.

[C]

The Supreme Court is back in session. They rejected today an appeal by Ghislaine Maxwell to overturn her conviction. That means her only chance at getting out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you're.

[D]

Who are we talking about?

[C]

Ghislaine Maxwell.

[D]

You know, I haven't heard the name in so long I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. Did they reject that?

[C]

She wanted to appeal her conviction. And what happened to hear her appeal.

[D]

I see. Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll speak to. I will speak to the doj. I wouldn't consider it or not consider. I don't know anything about it, so. But I'll speak. I will speak to the doj. I don't know. I may not have to speak to the doj. I'll look at it. I'll. I have. A lot of people have asked me for pardons. I call him. Puff Daddy has asked me for a pardon.

[C]

But she was convicted of Child sex trafficking.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I'd have to ask doj. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it, frankly. Steve.

[B]

Who.

[A]

What was that name again? Jizlyn? Who was she a mar. A loco member? Well, or was that a he? I just, like, the Trump is like, who was that that you're talking about?

[B]

It's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

[A]

It's like your. Your deputy attorney general just had a meeting with her, like, four weeks ago. She got moved from. To a Club Fed prison. It's. It's in the news. It's all over the news. It gets mentioned quite often. You know, it's all part of the Epstein cover up that he's working on that people you ask him about, what do you think is happening there? Is that just. I mean, what is he doing?

[B]

So there's like a couple ways you could interpret it, I guess. One is, I mean, either he's like, having, like a stroke. He's, like, stroking and just like, can't remember this, which I don't think is actually happening. Let's just be clear about that. The other one is he's just trying to play koi, which he's not doing it pretty artfully at all. Like, it's pretty obvious that he's like, oh, yeah, who's that? I mean, he's just doing his classic, like, little cat and mouse game where he's dangling the idea of a pardon. You know, it's funny. He just. Normal human beings would be like, no, I'm not gonna pardon a convicted sex criminal. Like, you know, absolutely not. But not Donald Trump. Donald Trump will never commit to not. Not pardoning someone.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, famously, you remember what happened in the last term when he was asked about JoLynn Maxwell. So you thought this might have stuck in his head. Let's watch that one as well.

[D]

I don't know. I haven't really been following it too much. I just wish her well, frankly.

[A]

He just wishes her well, you know, he just wished her well back then. Now he doesn't remember who she is, who back then. He was wishing her well. Never. Is it like, this is one of the most notorious underage child sex traffickers in the country. She is horrific. And I hope that she experiences the consequences of her actions.

[B]

If someone asked you that, you'd be like, how dare you? Why would you assume that I would ever do that?

[A]

Think about the difference in the way Donald Trump talks about Joan Maxwell versus how he talks about, like, random migrants. You know, it's just like. Like they are. They're poisoning the blood of the country. They're vicious criminals. They've got cantaloupe thighs. They must be sent out of the country. You know what? They're. They're asylum. They should be in an asylum because he doesn't know what asylum. And so. So these are the worst of the worst. Vicious, horrible. Any. Any migrant that he has gets asked about migrants.

[B]

Talk about, like, Mark Milley. What are we. Talk like, what a loser. Traitorous.

[A]

Much harsher way for decorated veterans like Mark Milley who just want to uphold the constitution than for child sex traffickers. That is noteworthy.

[B]

That isn't even, like the only thing in there, though.

[A]

Like, yeah, there's one that I wanted to point out. I want to point out one thing.

[B]

Daddy called him.

[A]

Yeah, that. That. That's what caught my ears. So, you know, if you want to go with the stroke explanation, the Donald Trump just has dementia. He has early onset dementia. He doesn't know. He forgets that name. It doesn't ring a bell. I can understand how some people would like to go that way. There's an appetite out there for people wanting Donald Trump to have early onset dementia. Not here, but, you know, you just sense that out in the world. I don't think that's it, though. And I think that the key. Tell, as you'd say at the poker table, the Teddy KGB eating the Oreo there was that when asked about one child sex trafficker, out of nowhere, he brings up another sexual criminal that is in the news that wants it. That wants a pardon. You know, it's not like in his head, they are. They're attached.

[B]

He's probably impressed. He's like, so many people are calling me for pardons. P. Daddy, you might be aware of.

[A]

I call him Puff Daddy.

[B]

Yeah. Max is gonna be like, bill Cosby. Just call me the other day. Wanted to hang out, but you know, I'm not gonna commit to doing it. I like that. Caitlin Collins back to Jillian Maxwell. She's like, but she was convinced. But she was convicted of child sex trafficking. He's like, yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have to look at it.

[A]

We'll talk to the doj. We'll talk to Todd Blanch. We've got a new [e-mail] from Will Summer today. I've not read it yet. You edit it. Tell me. Give us a little tease. That mag Todd Blanche Why?

[B]

Well, it has nothing to do with Maxwell. So Todd Blanche was involved, obviously in interviewing Maxwell. Got her a cushy new gig. A gig? A cushy new prison.

[A]

She probably has a new gig in prison. I mean, she's probably doing something much more appealing and like the before it was the laundry or something and maybe now it's like gardening.

[B]

Yeah, I guess I don't have any expertise in that, so. So they're mad at him though, because Tina Peters, who is like one of these stop the steel convicts in Colorado, your old neck of the woods state president.

[A]

I know a lot about Tina Peters.

[B]

Yeah, State prison can't be pardoned. So Trump's hands are a little bit tied there. They want, apparently they want him to just claim that she's a witness in a federal case, unspecified what case, so that she could then be transferred to federal prison, at which point Donald Trump could pardon her. Like it's like a five step process. They want Top Blanche too, and he's not doing it. And so like Alex Jones and other people are now just pissed at Todd Blanche and being like, he's a mole. He's a deep stater, you know, get rid of this guy. Usual Bulwark Takes is sponsored by Soul. After a long day, I used to pour a glass of, you know, Pino, maybe a Sauvignon blanc, a Riesling if I was getting really crazy. But lately I've been reaching out for Soul's out of Office gummies and drinks instead of. This is my favorite federally legal way to unwind and ease into the evening. And I do it all without the alcohol or the next day Fog. Sol is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and that should be easy. Sol specializes in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide a mild relaxing buzz that gives you a little lift and it enhances your creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe from a gentle 1.5mg microdose. Good for evening parenting, if I do say so, to their newest 15mg gummy for a more elevated experience. And if you like their out of Office gummies, try their new out of Office beverage, a refreshing, alcohol free alternative that's perfect for winding down on the couch or socializing with friends. Sol also has a variety of products specifically designed to help you get a better night's rest, including their top selling Sleepy Gummies. It's a fan favorite for deep restorative sleep. I need those. I gotta have those. Bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to Seoul today. Right now, Seoul is offering our audience 30% off your entire order. 30% off. Can't beat it. Go to getsoul.com and use the code bulwarktakes. That's getsoul.com promo code. Bulwark takes for 30% off.

[A]

Interesting. Well, I wish him the best, as Donald Trump might say. All right, Sam, anything else? Any other. I guess I have one last question for you.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because this is something that Sarah and I disagree on, which is pretty rare because usually Sarah and I aligned versus jbl, but in this case, it's Sarah and I that are misaligned. And she's pretty bullish on Epstein and this whole saga, this whole cover up being something that is going to be a millstone around Trump's neck for a while now, politically, a real one. And I just, I remain pretty skeptical of that. Like, I think that there are some gains that he could make over this still. And I think that the Democrats will have oversight and will do. There'll be more revelation. So I'm not saying it's a nothing burger, but I just think that our expectations of, like, how big of a deal it is, maybe you're a little bit, a little bit out of whack. What do you, what, put on your analyst hat? How big of a deal is that?

[B]

Can I take a middle ground? So, sure.

[A]

Obviously, yeah.

[B]

I think first of all, any issue that kind of dominates the conversation for a month and a half, which is what happened over the summer, is significant. Right. Especially in this type of climate where Trump's making crazy news every day. Like the fact that Epstein was talked about for a month and a half is significant. I think, you know, you and I have talked about this, but, like, this is a game about attrition in time. And if you take a month and a half and you chop it off like that for Democrats is obviously a victory. At the same time, like, I just don't know that people are gonna, like, maybe there's a portion of the electorate who is like super conspiracy addled and think Trump is now part of it and they won't vote. But that's like the extent of it. I think, I think on the larger political implications, I'm sort of leaning towards you. Like, it just doesn't really register necessarily voters. And I think, I don't even think Democrats believe that it does. Because if it did. They would probably be fundraising more off of it and focusing more on it. I think they think it's a huge distraction for Trump and it, like, gets him mad and they like to, like, take him off his game. And for that, it's got utility.

[A]

Yeah. I just want to be clear. I don't think it's nothing. I think Trump. I don't think it's a vulnerability for Trump, for sure. And it's. And he's obviously covering up and how big of a deal it is eventually material.

[B]

It's so weird. This gets back to this. The Oval Office stuff is like, why does he act? I mean, maybe he is covering something up, but he also just acts so strange and like, self incriminating in these moments. Like, why not just say, no, I'm not gonna pardon Ghilaine Maxwell or say, that's not a decision. I'm gonn, like, I'm leaving up to the Department of Justice or any normal. Like, why can't he just do that? What is like, the lack of capacity to do that?

[A]

He's off kilter on it, which is also not right. Nothing.

[B]

Yeah, but how do you explain that? Is it just guilt? I guess May. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a bit of exasperation that he has. I mean, like, the other thing, now we're really getting into Trump psychology, which I don't love to do, but, like, he's gotten away with some dozen plus sexual assaults, at least, that are credibly alleged against him. How many of those? You know what I mean? Many people have credibly alleged sexual assault and harassment against him. Many women, he got away with them. This was something kind of from his distant past. Like, it is true of Trump that there's kind of a posse around Epstein after he got out of prison. And that was like, not Trump. It doesn't mean that Trump wasn't doing bad stuff with Epstein before that. I clearly was at some level involved with Epstein in a way that was gross. Like, what exactly that level is, I think remains to be seen. So to me, this is just like, he's kind of like, it was like 20 years ago and we were having. I went with this guy who's kind of a creep, and we had pinup parties with girls in bikinis.

[B]

And like, there's Palm beach in the 90s, right?

[A]

Yeah, right. I think that there's like a little bit of that and maybe there's also a little bit of nervousness and worries because he. If anybody knows what's in there. It's him. And he doesn't want it out. Like, if it was just guys being guys in the 90s, then why wouldn't he just want it out?

[B]

You know, it's humiliating that there's that. It's pretty humiliating to see your note to Epstein with the pubic hair sign. Maybe he has that.

[A]

Does he have capacity for humiliation? I don't know. Anyway, we'll find out more. Join Maxwell maybe getting pardoned. Tbd, Donald Trump acting crazy as fuck, talking about it. And we'll be back tomorrow for another edition of Oval Office press conference to see what we got. Then I'm here with Sam. Saddle. We got a Cabinet meeting coming up this week. I know.

[B]

I gotta hydrate for that one. Three hours of just effusive praise for Donald Trump.

[A]

All right, we'll see how much of that I can handle. Thanks, everybody. Subscribe to the feed. We'll be seeing y' all soon.